Son is finishing freshman year in high school
he has 12 weeks of summer vacation

wants to go to summer camp like his friends do,
and with some friends

his mother won't let him go to more than 2 weeks of camp.

uses money as the reason, highly unlikely the real reason.

refuses to let 12 year old daughter go to 2 weeks of summer camp, as in she is too immature. . . very way off base. . .

kids are dying, X is adament. . . sone refuses to go on summer vacation trip with his mother.

needs some suggestions,

and X does not believe in POJA or we wouldn't be in this mess. . . wshe is probably more NPD than BPd, but definately vindictive and controlling. . .

wiftty

I take it that you have joint custody with you also having physical? I would try to split the difference with her. Is it that she wont get any time with them? Try to compromise a little, if the kids want 4 weeks, tell them two. Are you footing the bill for this or asking her to kick in on it?

Wifty - that doesn't make sense.... Most kids have a really good time at summer camp - really what are the reasons??? I mean if she thinks your daughter is to immature - then maybe this is just the experience she needs... I would get information on the camps and show her that they are good choices and that most kids go to camp.. It doesn't make any sense that she wouldn't let them go - Maybe some of the other boys parents could talk to her...???

Your kids are old enough now to have an opinion. It may be that you’ll need to go back to court over the whole custody issue.

Do you get 2 weeks during the summer? What if you took your two weeks right after the two weeks your wife will allow the kids to go to camp. Then you give those two weeks to the kids to use for camp.

I know it’s a huge sacrifice on your part. And you should run it by your lawyer, especially if you think you might try to renegotiate custody.

Is there any way someone can commit the woman?

If they were younger, she'd be required to pay for summer camp since they couldn't stay home alone.
Wow, this is an issue many of us will deal with.

I know in some local camps, they have CIT programs. Which is Counselor in Training, and I doubt you'd pay for this.
Can you check into this for son.
And for daughter, she's still to young to stay home for 12 hours a day alone.
Let us know how this plays out.

I'm still waiting on X's response to summer camp. I only asked in early January, and after 3 follow up letters, I'm still waiting for a response. Yikes.

It just never stops with kids issues does it?

It would be helpful if a school guidance counsellor (and I know your wife teaches at the same school as your son attends), a therapist (if your children are seeing someone in this capacity) or a NEUTRAL person would be able to make the unbiased decision as to what is best for your children. Mediation would be a very good place to address this issue.

This takes you out of the battling arena somewhat and it is kids needs and wants vs X's control. Probably her issue is she does not want to be alone during the summer when she is not working.

Good luck and I hope it works for the kids.

Wifft,

The only thing you can do is to tell them each time their mom makes a bad choice is that you aren't the one who can choose this for them even though you would love to be. I'd leave it at that, and perhaps eventually, they'll choose to live with you instead.

Anna

[For folks who don't know Wiftty--X is Narcisstic and Borderline Personality Disorder. She doesn't want S to go to camps because she can't control him, and she doesn't want D to grow up. How's that in a nutshell? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]

Wiftty--

First things first...HI!! I have a couple great jokes for you if you need some cheering up!

Next, I think you need to realize and accept the idea that we can not "make" our ex's do anything. In fact sometimes when we try, they dig their heels in even deeper.

HOWEVER...
I do have an idea. This is a rather far-out psychological analysis, but let's go with it for a minute. The more your kids complain, throw a fit, and react poorly, the more she will dig it because she's BPD and she can mirror it right back to them. Plus, she can do the push me-pull you on them, and let them go then take it away. Not a wise choide.

Why not use her Narcissism and Borderline to your advantage? Narcissism is centered around self and well...being worshipped in their opinion (layman's terms but you know what I mean). Borderlines love to hoover, mirror, and pushme-pullyou. Can you use those traits to accomplish this goal? For example, if the narcisssist were worshipped for their enormous generosity it would feed into their ego. Not nice, I agree, but it may get the job done. If the narcissist were shown the ways that their life would be catered to and SOOOOOOooooo much easier, maybe it would appeal to their selfish side. If the Borderline loves to hoover, let them suck you right on into sacrificing and only going for 6 weeks (which is what the kids wanted in the first place).

Anyway, I'm not as good at the puzzle, but you are a thinker and I trust your abilities implicitly. You Think of the answer using her natural behavior to achieve your goal.

Finally, if XW just digs in her heels and refuses to budge, this may be an excellent opportunity to connect with the kids and let them realize that mom is sick and dad is not. I mean, give your kids some credit...they are smart and they can see. There's really no need to disrespect her or talk behind her back even, just give them a safe place to come to their own conclusions. You know my story, Wiftty, and my kids have reached that conclusion on their own without my having to say a word. Give them enough rope and they do hang themselves.

Anyway, the goal is for a young man and a young lady to have a quality summertime experience. As a freshman in high school, you son won't have many of these summers left, so do your best to be an advocate to get this done.


CJ

And if you don’t mind what you teach your children, you could tell them to threaten mommy that they’ll come live with you instead. I find sending subtle vibes that I may escape the NPD to be most effective. It can’t be used all the time of course or it loses it’s potency.

I still think we should get her committed.

WiFTY ---

I know I'm not your favorite person here, and playing games isn't your style (mine either). But what would happen if you were 'against' the kids going to those camps.

You might have to 'let the kids in on the ploy' but tell X that you really aren't convinced that those camps are good for the kids, she might want to consider not letting them go. Be careful of wording, so that you never say you disapprove, but word it so you come across as thinking SHE should disapprove of them going.

It then becomes a control issue between you and her instead of her and the kids --- and strategically speaking, she lets them go - over your disapproval. Which makes it appear to her to be her idea that they went.

I realize this is a game - but the kids really deserve camp. EVEN my kids go to camp! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jan

Wifty,

Are there scholarships they can apply for to go to camp or that you can try and get for them--if so encourage that--then mom won't have the excuse she can't afford it--

What about yourself--if you could find a partial if not full scholarship could you pay the difference, that way they get to go??

thanks for the suggestions. . .

both kids want to go to camp. . . money is REALLLY not the issue, she uses money when she doesn't want the real reason to be used. . .

now remember, she told both myself and our daughter, 12, that the reason that she divorced me is that i discussed money, and making money. . . and i made almost twice what she did. .

and she had her money and my money. . . even while we were married. . .

wiftty

WhenIfindthetime,

--both kids want to go to camp. . . money is REALLLY not the issue, she uses money when she doesn't want the real reason to be used. .

TR--I understand that--which is why I suggested looking for scholarships--

I think it's actually rather scary that she thinks having *to* much money is a crime--and everyone should be on 'equal' footing financially in this country--(sounds a lot like socialist propaganda to me)which is NOT what this country was founded on--and if that is what the school she teaches at and instructs your children--I think you should encourage them to read up on some REAL American History--and the reasons this country was founded--and the way the Republic was set up--

But I do like SJ's suggestion about making your ex think she's going against you--as she seem's to have that rebellious spirit about going against anything you want--or even think is a good idea--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she uses money when she doesn't want the real reason to be used. . .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think her real reason is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> kids are dying, X is adament. . . sone refuses to go on summer vacation trip with his mother.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy, do I ever feel for your kids, they probably hit a brick wall on a daily basis with your X! The thing she hasn't figured out it isn't about HER....your kids want to spread their wings with friends and could use the time to themselves with their peers!

I agree with GG:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It may be that you’ll need to go back to court over the whole custody issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Something to think about......