Sure, most kids say it once in a while, but I feel like a big failure as a parent because my son does NOT understand love and hate. Or he does ... he's very intelligent ... and is just plain mean.

He loves Grandma more than me, he has always loved Grandma more than me, he has made this statement dozens of times over the years. At four years old, it is a lack of tact. At almost nine years old, I'm starting to think it is more of an intentionally cruel thing to say.

Lately he will not say he loves me, I will say I love you and he will reply "well I don't love you" and will just go on with whatever HE wants to talk about. (Do enabling mothers/grandmothers create narcissists?)

I have told him many, many times that I love him and will always love him, even when I'm angry I still love him, and would never say that I hate him, and how awful a word that hate is.

He will only say "I love you" to me if he has been given something he wanted or is about to plead for something he wants really bad. Then if the answer is no he hates me again. This is what I mean by not understanding what love and hate are. He never tells Dad or Grandma that he hates them ... they never tell him no.

I'm tired of it.

He's just going to get the soap.

Sounds like he needs counseling. I would get him in as soon as possible to deal with this. Don't let it go on any longer without seeking professional help.

I wonder what would happen...if you just didn't say it...a few times. He might miss it and rethink his strategy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Buttercup,

You both need counseling <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I have no doubt that your son loves you dearly. But he has learned that you need to hear him say it. And he uses that to get his way with you.

Point is, you can't send him to a counselor and get him fixed. You need to go too.

It doesn't sound like this is too serious yet, but it could get there. A little early intervention at this point could save you a lot of angst in the future.

How old is he?
KK

Hello xPBC,

I don't think I've posted to you before--I don't post much--but this is something I have experience with so I wanted to share in case there was anything that would help you in your sitch.

You said:
"Lately he will not say he loves me, I will say I love you and he will reply "well I don't love you" and will just go on with whatever HE wants to talk about."

I replied this way EVERY time--it's ok if you don't love me right now--I love you--I'm your mom and I will always love you--even if you never love me I will always love you and you cannot ever change that, it's one of those things you'll just have to deal with. Something you should know--sometimes this was in response to him yelling from upstairs; I had the same reply as always but in that situation it was a LOUD reply that the whole neighborhood could hear if the windows were open <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Not calm, cool, and collected but the message still got through <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Much, much later, probably 3-4 years later, my son told me that he said/did those things because he didn't want me to love him, he didn't think he deserved to be loved, he thought I was stupid for loving him but I just didn't know it yet, and that he tried everything he could to make me stop loving him for both our sakes. I asked him if he believed that so strongly then why did he eventually give up on trying to make me not love him--he said because no matter what I was always going to love him so it was a waste of his time. When he gave up, he still thought that I was too stupid to know that I shouldn't love him, but it was something that he would just have to deal with--that I loved him and always would.

Isn't that strange? I have never totally figured out why that was, and neither has any therapist of mine or his.

You said:
"He will only say "I love you" to me if he has been given something he wanted or is about to plead for something he wants really bad. Then if the answer is no he hates me again. This is what I mean by not understanding what love and hate are."

If my answer was "yes" I told him that it wasn't because I love him, it was because (fill in the blank). If my answer was "no" and he "hated me" I told him that even though he hated me I still loved him, etc. Sometimes the answer was "no" BECAUSE I loved him and in those cases I told him that I thought "no" was best for him, and that my answer wasn't changing BECAUSE I loved him and wanted what was best for him.

You said:
"He never tells Dad or Grandma that he hates them ... they never tell him no."

IMHO, all the more reason for you to tell him "no" when necessary--someone has to, right?

You said:
"I'm tired of it."

I understand. I remember and I truly understand. Keep going no matter how much more tired you get, don't throw in the towel, you won't regret it in the end--one day he will see what he cannot see now. I know that sounds farfetched to you, but it's true--and I have proof that even in my wildest fantasy I never thought I would have. Hang in there--it's a long road to get to that point.

Take care

I think some of this is the age. They are starting to move into puberty and are getting more moody. My daughter who is 10 says "I love you" or "I hate you" meaning "I like what you are doing" or "I don't like what you are doing". Interpret them that way. I have talked to her when she isn't in a mood and said I don't like when she says that, but that I would prefer her to say she doesn't like what I am doing/making her do/not letting her do.

No offense taken Bumperii *g* but I wonder what makes you say this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You both need counseling ... he has learned that you need to hear him say it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We do have an appointment set for Monday. He is having a physical/behavioral accident problem (#2) at school. BTW he is almost 9 and just stopped wetting the bed (with the help of a special alarm) a couple months ago. He had been wet almost every night for over 8 years. I thought we made a lot of progress since then, as I have a LOT less frustration in the mornings! But the sibling fighting has increased and so has the talking back.

<small>[ March 26, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: xpButtercup ]</small>

XPB,

It sounds like your ex- and his mom are teaching him gift's = Love--

It's called buying a child's love--it's sad, but quite effective--and children use this to their advantage--

I realize it hurts you very deeply to hear your son tell you he hates you--

but the next time he say's it just tell him "I'm sorry you feel that way, but mommy still loves you anyway"

Don't try and get him to tell you he loves you--because in reality--he doesn't love grandma more than he loves you--he loves that grandma buy's him things--whenever he asks--and He equates that with love--

Grandma doesn't tell me no--grandma doesn't make me clean up after myself--grandma just gives and gives and gives--

but he's in for a very hard life when others won't give to him the way daddy and grandma do--so he will need to know that someone loves him for him--

So just continue to love him for him--because one day--he will need that--more than he realizes--

I don't really have anything new to add here, but wanted to tell you I feel for you because as a mother I feel your pain.

Keep up the counseling. Also do as advised and try to hide your pain with what he is saying and appear to remain uneffected. There is a reason that he is doing this, it may be nothing major or it may be very complex, but there is definately a reason.

As bad as it sounds by showing him that you are hurt by what he says you are empowering him in some screwed up way. I would also say that in his own way he may be venting his feelings of anger on the one person he feels safest with, you. You keep telling him that you love him and always will no matter what he does. He has had a lot of let downs in his young life. He may be testing you to see if you really mean it.

This has got to be unbearably hard. I really feel for you. Hang in there!

Take care and God bless!
K

Buttercup,

No offense intended. I've been through the wringer with problems with my kids too, raised three of them by myself after my dear sweet faithful loving wife took off with the bus driver. (a married man with a Harley Davidson motorcycle.)

What I posted to you is what I learned in therapy myself. I'm not qualified to make a diagnosis, but I'll bet my house the therapist will need to work with both of you, simply because the problem is one of interaction between the two of you.

It doesn't make you a bad person or say anything bad about you. It is just that the therapist needs to work with both of you.

Going to get professional help is a very loving thing to do, you are to be commended for doing so. I'm delighted to hear you say "we have an appointment." I think you'll be fine. Please keep us posted and let us know how you make out.

You are a wonderful paent and your son is fortunate to have you as his mother. I do understand both the pain as well as the frustration. With 4 children all having told me this many times, I laugh and tell them to stand in line. BUT it took me a long time to do this and DEPERSONALIZE from their hurtful comments, which were meant to do just that when I stated "NO" as I had the right to do as a parent and in my home.

I have a much bigger problem with children who state "I love you", but their behaviour is unloving and just plain hurtful. We will not discuss the role modelling and where they learnt this!

X has done his best to alienate the children from me. 2 younger teens still know their father's behaviour has zero % to do with what is good for them and according to their best interests and have whatever relationship they can with him (he blows hot and cold, depending on his needs, his wife and what he needs to prove to outsiders that he is "cool". ) Eventually they will learn how to make it work as best it can, without buying into his needs at their own expense. It has taken 5 long years for them to learn that when he gives them things, it is just that, but they now know this is not what they want from him really...and he cannot give more. What I am trying to say is your son may love more the easier relationship with those who make life nice for him, but he loves you for who you are to and FOR him...and always will.

Maybe your son will learn who truly cares about him, without having to prove this through material things and and giving into him. The point I am trying to make is that as a parent it does not matter whether your child does or does not love you, but what you want to be as a parent to them, to give them the guidance as best one can, for them to grow up to be thoughtful, caring and independant human beings with a sense of values and morals.

Yes, when others make this so much harder than it needs to be, it hurts on so many levels, but that is where acceptance comes in and you need to do whatever helps your child(ren) in a way that works for you. Professional help and guidance is very helpful, provided your child is willing to go. You can only put into place so much, the rest is beyond your control.

Good luck.

<small>[ March 27, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: amnow.ok ]</small>

narcissists are not made, it is genetic. However, insensitivity and selfishness can be learned )and therefore unlearned) behaviour. I agree with the need for counselling, most likely your son is acting out in some way and recognizes this is a good way to do it....also you may be unwittingly his partner in this dance. It is unclear to me why you connect your expressing love for him, with an expectation of the same in return, they are different issues...in fact, I can surmise that your expressing love yet projecting he should feel the same and express it similarly, may feel controlling to him, and insincere, just something for you. I don't know that this is true or not, but a therapist is needed to unravel all this.