I have been around and around with my two kids about contacting their mom. The absolutly refuse to do so. I tell them to at least write an email, and it is so bad, I dont want to send it. The last time I said, ok, that is how they feel and let them send it. The stbxw called as soon as she got it and made threats to the author. It made things worse between them. The younger of the two feels sorry for her mom and will visit, but even that is getting harder for her to do. Her mom yells and accuses her of a dirty look, or didnt like how she said something. I am caught in the middle of it with the stbxw thinking I am not relaying her message to call or email her. She is going to counseling for herself, not her marriage as she put it. All they are doing is hearing her side, which I must say is twisted. They then give her buzz words that she has been hurling at me. She now wants a key to the house, is accusing me of having someone that I sleep with, hiding things ( marital property) at her house and it is rediculous having her call me at 5:00 am on Saturday to spew the lies at me. I am waiting for a court date to give us some relief of this bitter person. I dont feel I can force the kids to have a relationship with her. She taught them that it is totally acceptable to tell her mother off and never speak to her again. I feel she is the cause, not me like she tries to say I am. Should I call her and tell her myself that the kids dont want to email or talk to her or what. It kills me that this is happening this way. I told the kids point blank that this is my divorce, not theirs, and they dissagreed and said they wanted it more than I did. Any encouraging words will be appreciated.

Get the kids into counseling. NOW!
They are dealing with grief and need assistance in expressing their emotions.
If you are a conflict avoider, this is difficult for you so you are probably not equipt to provide these tools to them.

Let their counselors at school know what is going on. They'll have great recommendations for help.

Look up www.rainbows.org for peer counseling for the kids. Also, make sure you go to the library or book store and equip yourself and your children with books on divorce and separation.

Get yourself some help in dealing with an angry x, a counselor and/or a support group.

Good Luck.

My check book is empty, I dont get enough CS, I was left with a high feed bill for animals and am having no luck in downsizing. I am about ready to give them away. I dont have a church that we are a part of, it was my wife's way. She wouldnt go anyplace more than once. I am afraid that it will be as bad as her with her counselor and her problems. I want real help with this but am cashless. I talked with the counselors in school, and they said the kids were doing surprisingly well. they also said they would talk with them periodically. I do have a freind who suggested a pastor friend of his. I will call him today.

DEAR HIRED HELP:

A FEW YEARS AGO, MY OLDER KIDS DID THE SAME THING, REFUSE TO SEE THEIR FATHER. ROLES REVERSED, BUT THE SAME THING.

THEY WERE DAUGHTERS, STARVING FOR THEIR FATHER'S AFFECTION AND ATTENTION. THREE OF US WENT TO COUNSELING TO AIR OUT DIFFERENCES. BIG HELP, DID YOU EVER TRY IT? GO WITH THE KIDS, AND HAVE THE KIDS GO SEPARATELY. THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT NEITHER PARENT DOESN'T BLAME THEM. THAT BOTH PARENTS AREN'T GOING TO SAW BAD THINGS ABOUT THEM IN THEIR PRESENCE. ONCE THE EX AND I AGREED NOT TO SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT EACH OTHER, THE KIDS WERE RELIEVED AND HAVE A GREAT RELATIONSHIP WITH BOTH OF US...SEPARATELY...IT HAS WORKED OUT FOR US...HOPE IT DOES FOR YOU.

A BROKEN HEART

There are people to help you, just ask.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I dont have a church that we are a part of, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My separated/divorce support group was free, run by a Presbyterian church.
The Rainbows program was free, run by the United Methodist church. I highly recommend the program.
In fact, the church had a thrift store and offered anything free to people who needed it.
My county has a local Women's crisis center. Again, free counseling. I'm sure they have some mechanism in place for men in the situation.

And I'm not any of the denominations I've named above. I also consider MB somewhat Lutheran based on its location, and my Lutheran friends in Minnesota had the MB program in their church.

Help is available, just ask.
And get a Library card. Many good books there.
Check out "Mom's House/Dad's House" among others.
And early on I did alot of books on tape as I drove to work, since my concentration level wasn't quite there for reading as I was so stressed.

Just to add, their mom was a controlling screaming yelling person who never gave them any credit or validation. She wanted to make all of their decisions. Even the shape and size of their eyeglasses. She bought their clothes without regard to their feelings. She started threatening them then physically. That is when I ended it, that is why they dont like her. I cant blame them and hoped she would try to make amends with them but has only lashed out more at them, putting me down etc.

Hired Help,

When your wife was verbally lashing your kids Did You ever stand up for your kids? did You ever confront her about that?

if not what were you afraid was going to happen if you did?

What ever that fear was--is what you need to start working on now--

Your kids shouldn't be forced to endure verbal abuse and they are wise to want to stay away from it--

They are telling their mom--This behavior is unacceptable--if you want a relationship with us--
you need to change how you talk to us--you need to change how you treat us--those are HEALTHY Choices for your kids--

Although, I am in agreement with the others--GET YOURSELF AND THEM IN COUNSELING!!

Contact a local church--and stop using the excuse

"I dont have a church that we are a part of, it was my wife's way. She wouldnt go anyplace more than once."

Find one--You are apparently separated--so take the steps necessary for you and your kids--

Many Churches have food banks--and have a fund set up to help people when in need of financial help--there is also the Salvation Army that works closely with churches to those in times of need--
and just so you know--the best time to go--is the beginning of the month--

I stood up for them all the time, but I also tried to teach them what buzz words not to use. I have had several adults including the school counselors. They were all in agreement that the kids are well adjusted, know what they want and what they dont want anymore of. They said at the school, that they would keep an eye on them and talk with them from time to time. The problem right now, is that the stbxw is accusing me of keeping them from her. When the kids told her how they felt, she started threatening them with coming to live with her. The oldest said that she would find another place to go, and the younger one said she would live in an orphanage first. They were under alot of abuse, as I wasnt always there to protect them. When I realized that Mom was getting worse, and turning physical with them, I pulled the plug. Like I said, I dont blame them for the way they feel. She showed them it was ok to act that way in the case of her own mother. So I think she is getting what she deserves. As far as the kids, I think they are so used to the yelling, that I cant get them to do anything on the first or second try. I dont want to resort to the type of behavior they had with their mom. I dont know why I didnt think of it earlier, But I actually know a minister I just called and left a message. He is easy to talk to and I think my kids would be comfortable with him. they just need to hear things from a complete outsider who wont judge them. I think we are gonna be ok now. I have a plan, and a man to help me. I just wish I knew how to get the stbxw from slandering me, and harrassing us. The law is in the works so, I guess we have to be patient.

Hired Help - As I have been told - time and time again - it is up to the other parent to maintain that relationship with the children - You cannot as much as you would like make it all better - it is out of your control - You can protect them and tell them that you love and care for them and will always be there for them - and again like everyone else said offer them the most outside help available.. In my case my girls 11 and 13 do not talk to their father all that much - I tried to force it upon them for over a year - and then I realized that it wasn't up to me - I couldnt' make them all have a relationship... Now as for her slandering you and blaming you - well I to have gone through this and continue you - but you have to basically not care what your spouse or exspouse says - you know the truth....

If you don't get a call back from that priest, call another. Help is out there.
And while the kids might seem well adjusted, this is affecting them and their emotional growth.

Find a Rainbows class in your area. www.rainbows.org. They probably won't start new classes until the fall, but they are immensely helpful.

Divorce Casualties; Preventing Parental Alienation by Douglas Darnell

Was an excellent book in dealing with exactly the lies the other person spews to the kids and how to counteract it and establish a healthy relationship with your kids.

Invest the cash for the book -- if that's the ONLY thing you outlay money for. Take a morning out of your day and invest TIME, by calling the local churches, counsellors etc. to get into FREE counselling for the kids. One morning and a book will be the best investment you make that will last you a lifetime.

The mother is ABUSIVE! Keep the kids AWAY from her! If you can.

Heck, why are you trying to force the kids to do something they KNOW is bad for THEM!

I don't care if you want to take your EX wifes or whatever abuse YOURSELF but the kids should not be forced to even call her if they do not want to. They will be affected by her abuse all of thier lives so why make it worse by trying to force them to have any kind of relationship with the abuser.

I agree they need counseling, but NOT for the reason of still "continuing to have a relationship" with thier mother. That should all be OVER. She ruined thier lives and it sounds like YOURS too. She should be written out of all your lives like a bad piece of rotten cheese.

Let HER go and let the kids have NOTHING more to do with her if they so desire. They will have lots of time to deal with her abuse toward them in the years to come in counseling, medication, acting out, difficulties in relationships, addictions, etc. Let the kids have counseling to get over that abusive mother and be able to live halfway normal lives. You have no idea how damaged these kids are by her abuse all those years.

You did well by FINALLY getting rid of the abuser. After years upon YEARS of heavy abuse on your kids and you.

Now don't "go backwards here" and force your kids to contact her!

Let them at least be FREE of her and her sick abuse NOW, FINALLY!

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Baba2, I know you are right. What is the largest stumbling block for them right now is the fact that there are people at their school who are in their mom's pocket who tell them things like, Your father is making mistakes, and another who constantly grill's them about where I am, what I am doing, Where this or that is. She reports back and then the phone calls start. She is so far off base with her accusations, the kids are sick of people getting involved and watching them. Seems like I should write a letter to the principle, telling him that some individuals are involved in what they shouldnt be and that I want it to stop. Would you think that is a good idea? I dont feel like I should have everyone playing detective for her, while I am so busy, trying to keep the bills paid, kids fed, house clean, animals fed and keep up with car repairs, and cutting firewood to heat the house. When would I have time to do any of the things I am daily being accused of? And all this is going on, and we have no sep agreement, no court date, no relief in site. It is really starting to get to me. I need immediate action to get her to stay away from us and the lawyers just passify me by saying who cares what she says or does. I have to wait till the kids find me with a knife sticking out of my chest before they can do anything about her. I feel like I am not married anymore, and she shouldnt have the right to come and go or stay if she chooses. She has a SB lawyer who is telling her how to get to me instead of trying to come to some agreements.

Just my first thoughts. Can the kids transfer to another school? Would they be willing?

Can you get a restraining order on your wife?

Can you find a GOOD lawyer who will give you a decent workable plan of action for divorce?

Like, first writing "Do not slander me" letters to all concerned....then going from there. Have the kids write letters to on what is really happening. Let the GOOD lawyer see these and start to proceed to write the "dont slander me anymore" letters.

Sometimes a good hard letter from a lawyer does wonders. Then your kids need a way to handle the slander talk.

Still, if there was a way you could move to another town or put the kids in another school it would be great.

Others could give you more ideas on how to deal with the slander. And how your kids should handle it. That probably hurts them too even as the abuse itself hurt them. The poor kids.

Maybe you stayed with her 10 or 15 years too long. But you are getting out now and that is good.

It's really hard to imagine even going through it right now how things have changed since the beginning. Example:
She left without incident.
Gave me a list of certain items she wanted.
Told me that the kids should stay with me.
Told me to keep the house with mortgage and pay as my rent.
Said if I sold in the future to consider her for a percentage of the profit.
Said to draw up agreement based on these facts.
Started asking for copies and asking questions about agreement.
Told me to keep everything else but if I sold anything to consider her for a percentage.

Started telling friends and coworkers.
Hired her own lawyer.
Made unreasonable demands about kids.
Started making false statements, starting to talk with neighbors.
Started recruiting people to her side and to get advice on how to take me down.
Convinced adult daughter I was no good.
Wants everything sold.
Wants all of anything she ever had in the house.
Coming in house and rifleing through mail, court documents etc.
Giving partial CS.
Trading CS for documents, visitation.
Denied all charges.
Living with co worker.
Rents own place.
Telling kids they are coming to live with her.
Gets adult daughter to spy on us. Tell me I am wrong.
Has spies in schools.
Demands key to house. Sure she will trade for CS.
Calling in the middle of night to harrass.
Making more false accusations.
Court date in the works. Let the judge decide.
Whatever. I dont care about the stuff, just the kids and myself. Why should I work on the house for her to get more of a share? She has puppeteered for the last 20 years. Tired of it. Doesnt like the new me. Must be another woman in my life giving me the balls to stand up to her. So sad.

Oh I feel so bad for you HH! Well, you know what she is up to now so start forming your own documentation.

You do not want to be taken blindsided by her in court. It is bad and hard but you HAVE To get a good attorney and plan a plan of defense or offence against her and to give you strength in court.

Too bad you did not put everything in writing when she first suggested it and get it notarized, etc, so that it did not have to go farther. Apparently, at that point you still trusted her and her words. It should have all been put in writing the DAY SHE SAID IT ALL.

So, now you have to go the harder way of courts and lawyers. Please get an attorney who can protect YOU. And the KIDS. Have them go with you to the appointment with the attorney.

I am new hear but I do know something about this. My mom and dad got divorced and I still after 16 years refuse to see my dad... My mom never put me through consouling even though every one told her too. I grew up and got married and at first I was convinced that my H was going to do to me as my father did to my mom. So it has messed up my life. I am now going through consouling for this and have realized that alot of my problems in life are because I didn't get help before now.
I am not really good on giving advice but I can say that in my opinion you kids are going to need the help consouling will give them... I can understand the money thing. I am wandering if there is a place around you that will take your insurance or if there is like a group place... I know that where I am we have a group discussion (can't remember the name) and we are all there cause of divorce. Maybe that will help. I hope this helps you... Good luck...

I have a lawyer, said to be a good one. I have documentation for the past three years in the form of emails back and forth. I hoped I would never need them but hey. I guess it is a good thing I didnt delete everything. We go to court next week so at least the judge will spell out some guidelines for her to live by. I just want her to ask me to come in and take things. I dont care what she takes, but imagine coming home to make dinner and find dishes, glasses and pots and pans gone. I have had to replace things like that as she took them, plus pay the lawyer and try to keep things paid up till we get into court and get the CS taken care of. It has been hard, but it has been worth it. I see signs that my kids are messed up from this and will get them some help. I just wish that people whe arent involved would stay out of it. Even the kids are angry about it and it is straining the relationship they have with their adult sister.

It sounds like your STBX is working. When the CS is established, have it garnished from her check by the county and the county sends it to you. That way, she cannot try to withhold CS from you. Even with a court order, there are those who will try.

How old are your kids? I don't know about where you live, but I know some states/judges when kids reach a certain age, take what the kids want into consideration when making this determination.

Good luck to you

You know...I've read the posts and would like to make a couple of observations through my own experience.

I was in an abusive relationship, and yes he was bad, and yes he says things that are cruel, but he is STILL and always WILL BE their father (insert mother if needed). Regardless of how this person is when we were married, he said cruel things and did not so nice things (not physically abusive). Do I LIKE the things he still does? No. Will I protect my children from him? If need be. -- BUT..there comes a fine line of what I believe is good parenting and what he believes in good parenting. I may think my kids need to go to bed at a certain time, he may totally disagree. Does it really matter? At the end of the day, what really counts is how do those actions affect the child? Sure my youngest stays up hours past what she would be allowed to in my home, but the consequences of that is she feels pretty rotten the next day. She's learned to go to a bed at a different time. So, who's way is right? My way? or his way? The end result is the child does learn that bedtimes are meant for a reason. You need to let go of what's really not that important.

Ok...now let's go onto the next thing. At the beginning of this process my STBX would do anything totally opposite of what I would do, not for the children's sakes, but to hurt me. When I let all that go, and the kids realized they couldn't use the "Well Dad (insert Mom) says *blah blah blah*) and I responded: "Your Dad (insert Mom) is entitled to do what he (she) wants to do in his (her) home. This is OUR home, and MY rules are *blah blah blah*" Took the wind right out of their sails. When kids can gain your sympathies, they will take it right to the limits (and yes, my kids were younger, 7, 9 and 12 when the mess began). They too didn't want to visit, and on and on. I LOVED it because I really hated what my ex did to us. He destroyed our family and destroyed me in the process..... But what I did discover through time was I wasn't doing them ANY favours by encouraging no contact. I was letting my bitterness seep into them -- and that HAD to stop.

There comes a time when you realize you can't control things the way you want to control them. When it comes to stopping the slandering and lies -- the courts really don't care. Bottom line is, they only care that the children are fed, housed and treated decently. If parents yell -- tough luck. If you want to spend the $10K or more to prove that she's an unfit parent, so be it, but also know that if you want a parental analysis done of her parenting skills, you will also be under that same magnifying glass. At the end of the day I can bet that BOTH of you will be deemed as fit parents in the midst of divorce full of emotional ups and downs -- but less $10K that could have been used towards the kids.

I learned in a hurry that my kids told me what I wanted to hear. I wanted to hear the ex was rotten, and yelling and swearing -- in reality, he probably was half of what the kids told me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wanted to make all of their decisions. Even the shape and size of their eyeglasses. She bought their clothes without regard to their feelings. She started threatening them then physically. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is your take on what she's doing. She may feel well within her right as a parent to do exactly that....but then she may feel you are totally WRONG in your parenting ways. As for the physically -- what exactly is she treating them with? The only reason I ask is that I too have been faced with a child who wants their own way (like dressing like a two-bit hooker and wanting to go to school on a public bus)... throwing a temper tantrum and punching in the drywall of the house. You BET I threatened them and told them to stop.

I don't force my kids to contact the ex, but I do encourage them. (He wouldn't do it if the shoe was on the other foot). What I have learned is to live my life by example. When they were younger I would phone and then say "Telephone is for you!" We had call-waiting so they had no idea who it was. Now...the youngest is 15 -- old enough to make her own choices and pick up the phone herself. Have you thought that maybe the kids don't want to have YOU listen in to their conversations, therefore they don't talk with you around? Give them the opportunity to call her. Maybe having a line devoted to them (different ringing that costs about $6 a month extra). There ARE other options.

Realize that YOUR actions will also be scrutinized in court. If you are making NO efforts to encourage the relationship between your kids and your STBX-wife, then you could very well lose custody of them yourself with full day to day care with your wife. I strongly urge you to seek counselling, and educate yourself on Parental Alienation. Children live by example. One thing my now 20 year old has said is "You never discouraged us from spending time with dad. I know how hard that was for you because he's a jerk." Sadly he is....but it's not my place to tell them that. This person is HALF of my children and to treat this other person in their life like that, would mean that HALF of my own children are not acceptable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seems like I should write a letter to the principle, telling him that some individuals are involved in what they shouldnt be and that I want it to stop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there...didn't do that. Living by example is what stood out. The principal saw MY actions and ignored the gossipers. The principal and school staff are well aware of the dynamics of parents that are splitting. What they pay attention to is who is the one spending time with their kids and homework and assignments. Who is the one that shows up at the school when they forget their lunch, who takes off work to come and pick them up when they are sick. Understand?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has a SB lawyer who is telling her how to get to me instead of trying to come to some agreements.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You bet she does! That's what she hired him for -- to get everything she possibly can. There are lawyers that are snakes in the grass who don't give a sh*t about the ones who count the most -- the kids. Your STBX already knows what buttons to push and she is sucessfully doing that now isn't she? What you have to do is exercise control. Get into counselling. Take an anger management course for men (believe it or not, anger management class is where you will find plenty of men facing the same issues that you are).

Establish some rituals in your home. ONE meal a day that you spend together. Establish a "family" night where you all spend time watching a movie, playing a game or heading outdoors for a walk -- but MAKE it a ritual, something that these kids can count on. Right now not only is YOUR life falling apart, their life is also falling apart. Try and stabilize it for them. The payoff's are huge!

The hardest thing to do in life is to turn the other cheek. It goes without saying that if your children are in danger, protect them -- but that protection also comes in teaching them how to respond to the verbal abuse and to establish their own workable relationship with BOTH parents.