Rather than shanghai the other thread, might as well start another one.

The statement you made

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If one parent were to unjustly criticize the other, the only parent the kids would become alienated from would be the criticizer.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've noticed through the years that you appear to get a few words and responding to just those few, however not getting the whole content of what posters say.

In MY life and MY experience and also those that I have interviewed (I was a journalist) -- statistically speaking (and not just reading a few articles) -- when ONE parent is speaking horridly about the other (your mother/father is a *****, your mother/father does ****, or manipulating the kids in a way that hurts the other parent), the children, out of fear of retaliation of the (in your words) "criticising" parent, the kids will stick like glue to the abusive one. It's safer. When those same children build healthy boundaries and know how to be safe themselves, that is when they will start to speak out. (this happens also when the parent that was bashed about verbally and even physically) gets enough backbone himself/herself to also develop healthy attitudes and support to help him/her stand up to the bullying and abusiveness without fear.

I believe that many of these kids who see this unhealthy behaviour know no other way to behave. They have lived with the abusiveness of their parents and the safest response for them (at that point in their life, BEFORE learning what healthy really is) they will agree with the abusive one. If they don't agree with him/her, that person also turns on them, which is far more painful when you have one parent who loves you unconditionally. For most kids, agreeing with the one who is doing the alienation (verbal abuse, manipulation etc.) is easier. They many not agree with the alienator, but they also know the other parent loves them unconditionally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> even if I think my H is a jerk, I don't like it when my sister or someone on this message board calls him one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you ever thought to question why you don't like it? Could it be that you wish you could feel the same, but love this man? I too was the very same at the beginning of the separation. How dare my family say what a jerk he was? How dare they criticise who he was, after all I KNEW what he went through in his life, I felt he was entitled to feel the rage. Thing was Nellie, I was afraid. I was afraid to be alone and to admit that what he did to me and the kids all those years was wrong. Besides, how the heck was I going to change it? He was abusive, critical, just plan ol' mean and nasty for all those years I married him. Maybe it was ME that was the problem, maybe it was ME and he was right, all those horrid things he said about me.

Once the kids and I learned what healthy was, the only parent that DID become alienated was the one that was the criticizer. But that took years. He still has one child with him who would swear the sky was yellow if his father said it was. My ex remained unhealthy and abusive, while the children and I grew to a place where we were safe and healthy. One of those children also lived with him and chose to leave the environment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had done some research on this topic previously, but thank you for suggesting that I do more. What I found is very interesting and downright scary. Before jumping on the "parental alienation syndrome," bandwagon, it might be a good idea to read one of numerous articles debunking this theory </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad to hear that you have been doing some research. I have been reasearching it for years and have also gone one step further -- changing my OWN life so that it will NEVER continue in my family, so that it will NEVER repeat the cycle in our family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed.
Secondly, it is violently opposed.
Thirdly, it is accepted as self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mentioned Gardner:

Take a look at http://rgardner.com/refs/misperceptions_versus_facts.html In my experience of 42 times in court, once the attorneys get a hold of anything, they will twist it into anything they want to say. Just think about OJ Simpson and DNA evidence. DNA has been used to link murders and put people away, yet a jury questioned the evidence.


Here's also a rebuttal from Dr. Gardner himself: http://rgardner.com/refs/ar18.html and another http://rgardner.com/refs/lor_f.pdf (that one will send you off to hundreds of reference materials backing up Parental Alienation from places like San Fransisco State University Psychology Department, hundreds of case law references, Institute of Continued Legal Education in Michigan, and will send you further into yet more and more information about it)

There will always be people who don't belive certain things. It's OK. You just don't believe there is something such as parental alienation. What counts the most is counsellors believe there is parental alienation, school districts are seriously looking at parental alienation, courts are looking seriously at it and have the case law to prove it. And me...... after years of it and having an adult child come out of it and look back and tell me how brainwashed she was is enough for me!

I agree with what you are saying. my kids for many years took mom's side because they were afraid of her. Getting her mad was worse than me being bashed in front of them. Over the years, they have watched and learned more about how their mom is. they have used the computers at school to look up mental illnesses that may be a cause for her behavior. The kids talked with me about it. I never said anything about it to the stbxw because she would have gone ballistic on them. She has over other things. I also looked it up and studied the behaviors and actions associated with the mental illnesses. I tried to talk with the stbxw about it and was ignored for a couple weeks because of mentioning anything against her. My kids were alienated by their mom, not me. they learned some very bad and hard to break behaviors. I live with it every day.

Elan - I have been reading your answers and I pretty like what you are saying... And was wondering what you would do in my situation... Short Scenario - My husband and I -everything fine - or so I thought - then bam husband has an affair - children never even saw us fight or anything because well we didn't really... - then he stayed with us for about 7 months the whole time we were fighting because of the usual lying, hiding - cheating stuff... Anyways long story short - found out it was the lady next door - Ok so now here we are divorced since September 2000 - he would only see the girls maybe one overnight on a Friday - from the get go - call them once a week on Wednesdays - And basically give them crap alot because they would come home and tell me stuff that they overhead - just in conversation - I didn't ask they just offered.. Their Dad and I had some pretty big fights because of his continual denial of the lady next door - who still by the way lives there - enough to make the situation worse.. Anyways for a good year I forced the kids to go with him - I fought with them to call him - to go out of their way to see him - He has really done a number on them - he is really in the poor me - syndrome - bought one daughter Christmas presents (alot and bought the older one a measley little gift certificate) the older child does not speak to him at all - anymore - they are 14 and 11 girls... so now here we are in April - I have pretty much backed off forcing them to go with him - I don't really bring him up at all.. Just sometimes the are you going with your Dad??? He is still pulling the oh woe is me - you never want to come with me - etc... Yelling at them - saying that they are not being nice to him etc... - So now what it has amounted to is maybe one or two 5 minutes phone calls per week - ending the conversation with my youngest - well call me if you want to go out to eat... So now - am I doing the right thing - not forcing this relationship?? Is it really my job to force them to go with him - when in reality it doesn't even look to me or to them that he wants them with him??? Any suggestions?

MAW64, Your response sounds like I could have written it. We are in the same boat as far as the kids and their Mom. I too tried to encourage it and even demanded it thinking it would look bad on me in court if they didnt contact her. I have given up since the overwhelming response was that the kids know what relationships are good for them and which arent. Ok. So I will let it go. I wont discourage them, and I will lightly encourage them to call. They emailed once and got blasted by her because they told her the truth. they wont email her again since she told them she was taking their letter to her lawyer and get custody. Let the judge ask them questions and then have him make the decision.

Elan,

Have to agree with you 1000% about parental alienation syndrome. I've seen it first hand also and there is NO DOUBT that it exists. In the case I am watching build daily, the mother is hell bent on turning the children against the father. The father is and always has been an outstanding parent in anybody's terms. The one child is refusing to be part of it and is rejecting the brainwashing, while the other is really struggling. I feel for this child so much! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> She is caught in the middle of it and can't see her way out at this time. Her father and her had the most amazing relationship prior to this. He's fighting daily not to lose his daughter. It's tough though. Don't you see the parent who has custody as having the upper hand so to speak in these situations? I mean, the mother uses her custody against the father all the time. It's really awful. Frankly, I hope the child grows up and blasts the mother for all her evil mouthing. Probably not the Christian way to think, but I do have those moments.

I disagree - I don't think that the parent that has custody has the upper hand.. I have told my girls time and time again - that I truly want them to have a relationship with their father - that it would make my life so much easier if they went out of their way to try and have a relationship with him... I used to really worry about maybe my girls taking my side a little more because I was so hurt - He thinks that I have turned the girls against him - and I might have helped a little in that - but it was never intentionally - all I ever did was react to what was being done to me. They saw their nice normal mom turn into a basket case... Not all parents who leave husband or wife whichever - really try to make the relationship with the children work - some of them as in my case - use the custodial parent as the scapegoat - as the person to blame - because well the children are mad at the parent who left and he or she has done nothing to fix that relationship - it is always about how they feel and what they want - they are selfish .. My biggest fear is that my girls are going to grow up with these huge men issues because their father wasn't a huge part of their life. But if I was to be truthful with myself it pretty much wasn't the ideal Dad when he lived there either - I just made him participate as much as he did.. And that is evident in the time that he gives them now. I do encourage them to talk to him - but I dont' throw him down their throats anymore - I have accepted that though he is the parent - my two children most of the time act more of the adult than he is... And yes it is sad... But sometimes I think in my case - that yes the spouse left their spouse but they also left their families even though they don't like to deal with that...

I myself am not sitting around in a pool of self pity ( although I have my moments). I am glad it is in the works, sorry it came to this but I cant control someone else's behavior or thought process. I am trying to undo the damage I see in my girls. i see that they have become acustomed to the yelling to get things done. I thought that with her gone, the kids would pitch in and help us build a better life together. Instead, I am dealing with a mouthy kid, who is just at the age where she doesnt complete things. I told her that if she worked as hard with her school work and chores as she did with Nintendo and the comuter websites, we would not have any problems. I need to set specific boundries with them, with times attached so they can try to manage things by themselves. I dont ask much of them. As far as the PAS. My wife is doing more damage being the one who is gone, with her actions, and words toward the kids. I try to tell them that mom is just trying to find her way. they dont want her to come back. They have rules, and punishments at home, and arent running wild. I just try to be a good dad.

I forgot to add, that we cant let our kids think they can make us feel better about our situations. they call that emotional incest. Defined better as an example of telling our kid to come over here and make me feel better, like they have magic ability to make our problems go away. It makes them feel like they are in control of our emotions. Actually, when you get angry and yell at them, arent they in control of them? Just food for thought.

Hired Help - my two girls are doing fine - I don't use them to make me feel better by any stretch of the imagination... I pretty much have just accepted the fact that though I did not go into this parenting thing alone - that is pretty much where I am - and I cannot control their relationship with their father - I can just be there for them - and try to help them in any way - and as for the mouthy kid - Well my oldest will be 14 in two weeks and she is very mouthy and pretty much the world revolves around her - but that is pretty much to be expected at that age... Don't let that frustrate.. Just remember you cannot fix what your wife did - the girls are not gonna change overnight - and you just have to be there for them as the stable parent - the one that they can depend on - Don't wait for your wife to do something that you want done - in regards to the kids - Go to court - get set visitations and go with that.. When we went to court - we agreed upon - no visitations - because I didn't want him to become the every other weekend Dad - I told him he was welcome to see them whenever he wanted I would never keep them from him - well you know what that backfired - maybe if it was court ordered every other weekend - then he might follow those rules.. But the point is - that you can only control your situation with your girls - you cannot control your wife's - you have to just worry about you and your girls - and leave the rest to sort is self out...

Amen to what you just said. My intentions are nothing but honorable, looking after the welfare of my kids. I know it has only been a couple months since the stbxw left, but I do miss adult intimacy. the stbxw thinks I must have someone and even has someone in mind. How else would I have gotten the balls to stand up to her? She is so far off base, it is sad. I have not been even looking. My kids have though. they say that this one or that one would be good for us.. I almost fell over. It comes down to the fact that the first female adult that treats them with kindness, understanding and attention, they want to replace their mom. I explained things to them about that and that we would need to live on our own for a while until we are settled, comfortable with who we are now. they said, yeah, but wouldnt it be great.

Hi All! Sorry I missed the conversation while it was happening...but I hope you don't mind me putting in my 2cents.

Hired Help: It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things over there -- but, like all of us, it does get to you now and again and frustrates the heck outta you. I wish they (the other parent) would just get on with their life and do what is BEST for the kids. Unfortuantely, some of these parents are unable to do what's best for themselves, nevermind what's best for the kids. The only thing you can do is build a healthy relationship for those kids of yours and show them what healthy is. As for missing the intimacy and the like, it's a *time* thing. When the time is right, the right one will come by. You need to work on YOU and those kids right now -- it's a priority. If you are missing a friend, join a parenting group, get yourself into DivorceCare to meet other parents in the same shoes to change ideas and just to even make a new friend.

Maw 34: just a couple of questions really -- might make you think of some other things we can help you work through (like so many of you helped me work through) -- sometimes you need a different pair of eyes, or some clarification to see your way through this journey.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ... And basically give them crap alot because they would come home and tell me stuff that they overhead </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand the part about them seeing their dad, what I don't understand is why your ex would give them crap because they would tell YOU stuff. How would he even KNOW what they told you? State clearly to them that the ONLY thing you really need to know is how they are doing physically. Tell them that you do wish they have a good time with their dad and that they can feel safe to tell you anything that they are hurting over. Let them know that it's ok to have a *life* with their dad and that every detail doesn't have to be shared, just like you would EXPECT them to do the same when they are with dad. Dad chose not to be a family, therefore he loses the right to know about his wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't really bring him up at all.. Just sometimes the are you going with your Dad??? He is still pulling the oh woe is me - you never want to come with me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These girls have TWO parents. Their mother AND their father. Regardless of who he sleeps with yesterday, today or tomorrow, that will never change the fact that he IS their father. You don't have to agree with him about who he sees or what he does -- his relationship is his to make with the girls. Sometimes, as much as it hurts, the other parent, the one with the morals and values and the one who has the ability to see into the future, has to push those same kids in the direction of having a relationship with their dad. Does it suck to have your kids call their dad (it sure did when I knew that the weekend they would spend would be with him and the newest girlfriend -- even though he was lying through his teeth and saying he wasn't "seeing" anyone). NOTHING I could have said about their father would have had the SAME impact of what the kids saw themselves. I am not saying to put your kids in a situation where they are hurt, but to encourage them to see their dad, invite him to a school function, pick up the phone and have them talk to him. I would call him when our daughter brought her report card home and tell him a few of the marks and then pass the phone to her. Voila...they were talking and it was a start. It became quite evident that HIS behaviour was what was driving the kids away and NOT the actions on MY part.

Do you force them? There comes a fine line of forcing them and encouraging them. It's hard to decipher the two, but at the end of the day, when they are adults, 20 and older -- what do you want them to say? "Mom always made a point of somehow having me get together with Dad -- she encouraged a relationship between us and it just didn't turn out" OR "Mom never encouraged us and it's all her fault that we don't have a relationship now." I encouraged and the truth prevailed. The oldest now realized that the person that really didn't want the relationship was her father -- there are NO doubts in her mind and no pointing the fingers at me.

Tonight...the youngest was scheduled to go to her fathers. She wanted to stay back with her friends. My response was, "You need to clear this with your dad. He hasn't seen you and I am sure he would like to spend time with you." She called him, his response to her was, "You f**&ing little &*tch, your mother is brainwashing you to stay at home isn't she?"
Now -- think seriously of how the truth prevails in this situation. She's home by the way, by her choosing and after she told her father that people who love and care for eachother listen to what eachother has to say, take into consideration their wants and needs, and don't swear at eachother. "I'll call you tomorrow when you've calmed down" she said. (she called me at work and told me what had unfolded -- and thanked me for never talking to her in that way!).

When do you stop encouraging the kids to communicate with their other parent? -- NEVER.... Give them the tools to cope with the other parent (abusive or not) -- they don't have to *visit* the other parent, but it doesn't stop them from a 3 minute phone call to say "Hi Dad/Mom, I just wanted you to know that I passed my English test. Hope you are doing ok".

The Feminine Side:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel for this child so much! She is caught in the middle of it and can't see her way out at this time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can show her the way out. Sometimes you have to let them go to have them come back. The oldest refused to speak to me for 2 years. I would phone, dad would hand the phone to her and I would get a grunt "hello" and NOTHING else would come out of her mouth. It was a ONE-SIDED conversation. She's 20 now -- and we are buds. Her response is "You never stopped loving me, no matter how mean I was to you. Please forgive me." I loved her enough to let her go, but I kept up contact. A card, a letter, a funny joke sent via email, a messaage on the answering machine saying "just called to say I love you." It all adds up. Does the parent who has custody have the upper hand -- depends, maybe physically, but emotionally when she was down and out it wasn't him she called, it was me.

These kids do grow up -- I've been on this treadmill for over 5 years. Lost a child for two years (btw I wasn't *allowed* to go to her graduation because I would make *Dad* and his *girlfriend* uncomfortable by my presence - I saw her walk across the stage and then I walked out). Flash forward -- she's on her own and is doing fine. Facing up to her father -- establishing healthy boundaries, initiated a healthy relationship with me after 2 years of beign estranged -- it does happen, but only because I hung in there and encouraged the kids to have a relationship with their father. They figure it out -- I just hope that one day my ex will.

Elan,

I found Gardner's rebuttal completely unconvincing, especially as in conflicted with the direct quotes I linked to in my previous posts. If you can demonstrated that those direct quotes have been falsified, please do - otherwise I will stand by my position. He admitted that most of his recent books have been self-published - why would any reputable psychiatrist self-publish his books? Even in his rebuttal, I noticed that he admitted that he believes pedophiles are treated too harshly - and I personally believe that it would be almost impossible to treat pedophiles too harshly. And no, I don't personally have any experience with pedophiles, thank goodness.

Many people, even those who believe that parental alienation exists, have distanced themselves from Gardner.

I do not understand why you question the fact that I do not enjoy having others critize my husband. I love my husband, and always will. I often think he acts like a jerk. So what? He has called himself that on more than one occasion. I am not sure what your point is.

In your post, you blended statements about "alienation" with statements about physical abuse. These two situations are in no way parallel. We are not talking about physical or sexual abuse. If one parent criticizes the other parent, and the other parent demonstrates by his or her behavior that the criticism is unfounded, then I do NOT believe that any child with half a brain would believe the criticism.

I am sure there is more to your story than you are letting on. Not knowing the circumstances, I do not know why your teenager rejected you. It is obviously to your advantage to promote the concept of parental alienation.

Hi Nellie! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not understand why you question the fact that I do not enjoy having others critize my husband. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simply because I was wondering why. No underlying motive, just simple curiousity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I found Gardner's rebuttal completely unconvincing, especially as in conflicted with the direct quotes I linked to in my previous posts. If you can demonstrated that those direct quotes have been falsified, please do - otherwise I will stand by my position. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are entitlted to your position as I am entitled to mine. This isn't a contest to prove who's right and who's wrong. This is a forum where people help eachother. Whether I "prove" anything to you or not, I believe your mind is already made up as to whether "parental alienation" exists or not, and you are entitled to that belief. Whether I can prove by a sentence in an article that I found rebutting one sentence of an article that you found really doesn't matter now does it? I just choose not to debate with you -- not because I can't prove my point, it's because I choose not to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If one parent criticizes the other parent, and the other parent demonstrates by his or her behavior that the criticism is unfounded, then I do NOT believe that any child with half a brain would believe the criticism.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, it is your opinion. One would wonder whether you believe the Stockholm Syndrome is also false.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sure there is more to your story than you are letting on. Not knowing the circumstances, I do not know why your teenager rejected you. It is obviously to your advantage to promote the concept of parental alienation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually there is no "advantage" of promoting the concept of parental alienation. Actually knowing that the deceit, manipulation, lies, brainwashing by a parent instead of co-parenting the children TOGETHER after divorce actually had a name, and strategies to counteract all that damage, was a pure blessing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It really doesn't matter how much of my "story" you know or don't know. I believe in parental alienation, and I acknowledge and respect the fact that you do not. I am a parent who has seen it in action and has lived to tell about it, with the happy ending. There was a point in my life where I thought I would NEVER have a relationship with my kids -- but I was so wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> God willing and with help from Parental Alienation books, Parental Alienation websites, counsellors specializing in Parental Alienation, parenting classes that spoke about Parental Alienation, the local women's shelter that had classes on dealing with compulsive controllers and taught about the resulting Parental Alienation -- was what changed the relationship with my children. It was worth learning as much as I could about it, and counteract the effects of it for the sake of my children. I didn't only read about it, I lived it. Thank the good graces of God that there are some people in the world that will never experience it or even understand it.

If you don't wish to debate this issue, fine. I don't understand why you started this thread if that were the case, however.

Elan - Well ok let me answer some of your questions - And you are right - about them telling me stuff and then I would go off on him about the lies and stuff - but let me make clear that - that was all in the beginning - now they never tell me anything.. But really the truth is they know absolutely nothing about their fathers life at all... He absolutely lies to them and they dont' know anything about him.. It is like he is the guy that calls once a week - or occasionally takes them out to dinner.. Basically he is a stranger - and that has not been because of me - that is all his fault - though the blame does get thrown me way in any and all occasions...His girlfriend next door - has absolutely nothing to do with my children at all.. They are not even sure if he is dating her or not - but whatever - I think that it is sad - that an almost 40 year old man has a life that his children know nothing about - And I have tried to encourage him to open up to them - that even though I might not like what he is doing -they are kids and if he had come clean with them about what is going on in his life then maybe they would have come adjusted by now - and they all probably would have a great relationship.. The problem is that he is really the biggest child of them all... And I do encourage but really I was totally forcing them to go with him... and pretty much it was making my life miserable fighting with them -- And still I was bending over backwards to make him feel like part of their life - all the while being blamed for them not being part of his life - So to me it has become a no win situation.. I am damned if I do and damned if I don't - So I have accepted the fact that I cannot control their relationship with their father - Yes they have a father - but he is not acting like a parent at all - he seems to think - well if they don't want to come with me - fine - I am not gonna force them... When I think that ok you don'thave to force them - just tell them geez I haven't seen you in awhile and I really miss you .. I have tried to tell my youngest like last night when she was bored - call your dad - see if he will take you to the movies or something - and she was like no - And I said you know you haven't seen him in a long time - don't you think he misses you ?? And she was like NO - OK well at that I said of course he does - call him - but she wouldn't - So is it up to me - to say to my ex - you know if you made her go with you she would be happy??? and better yet even if I told him - he really wouldn't believe me... He would think that I was just trying to control the situation... It is sad but I truly believe the damage has all been done.. He thinks that he is going to hide his life from them until they turn 18 and then all of a sudden he is gonna say - well now it is 8 years later and this is my girlfriend your next door neighbor... You know I mean they may be children but they aren't stupid ... And you are right he is not my husband anymore and he doesn't have the right to know anything about me - just as I have no right to know anything about him....

Nellie -- I'll see if I can have "response to Nellie" removed from the subject line.

Maw64-- I am so glad to hear that you are not going off on him about the lies and stuff. It is so hard to let it go, especially when you know your children are also listening to all this stuff.

The hardest thing to maintain is that stiff upper lip -- but believe me, it pays off HUGE in the end. Those kids will have a relationship with YOU because YOU worked hard on it. As for him and the girlfriend, the kids will figure that out too. He doesn't have to come clean -- actions speak louder than words. A dad that just shows up once in a while and a dinner here and there is just not a dad. Sorry about that guys! But a dad that puts effort into his relationship (I'm talking about the dad's that have little time with the kids -- every other weekend situation) can still do "Dad" things and be involved. They can go to those soccer practices and not just the games, they can go to parent/teacher interviews, they can talk about upcoming school projects and plan on working with them, or doing a library day, they can write, phone, take a day off and go for lunch one day just because.... And you are right, had he have come clean maybe they would have come adjusted by now, but Maw64 -- maybe not.

He IS the biggest child of them all -- and forcing your kids to spend time with them does make your life miserable -- but it's still something you have to do. Offer the choices, but don't bend over backwards. (and here you would have to give me a "for example"). A "for example" for me is him wanting to change his weekend one hour before pick up time because something else came along. Sorry, but HE has to cancel HIS plans. Another example is he would consistently come LATE to pick the kids up. Before I would wait and make up excuses -- now If he isn't there, I would wait 20 minutes and then LEAVE with the kids. The kids would have to ask HIM why he was late. In this day and age of cell phones (he has one, his girlfriend has one)there is no reason he can't call to tell us he's going to be late. He's been driving for many years and KNOWS how long it takes to get to our house, he is the one that WANTED the certain evening.

The part about your daughter being bored etc.... Is there ever a time where your ex would just come over and take the kids for a half hour? I think a lot of the time, with kids that don't want to go, we can give the other parent options. Don't discuss it with the kids -- these are KIDS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So is it up to me - to say to my ex - you know if you made her go with you she would be happy??? and better yet even if I told him - he really wouldn't believe me... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is between the PARENTS. Talk to him and say you want them to have a relationship with the kids and since they are choosing not to go, perhaps trying a different tactic might help. Don't put the kids into the position of making a *choice* (Please forgive me for I don't know how old your kids are. I am saying to use this for kids that are under the age of 14 - after that, in most states/provinces a child is considered old enough to make their own choices like pick up the phone and make the decision of wanting to be with a parent or not). Have the ex drive up to the house and tell the kids they go for a 1/2 hour (or as discussed with your ex)--one tv show. Tell the kids while they are OUT, you are also OUT -- don't give them an option to be at home with you. It's a start.

The only *right* you have when it comes to your kids is knowing that your children, that you had with this man, are safe and healthy. It doesn't matter what the heck they do together, but as long as they are SAFE. Sure he may shoot his mouth off saying things, but actions speak louder than words. If he says "Your mom will only scream at me if she knew...." and you do, his predictions are true in the kids' eyes. Don't give your ex OR your kids any rope, 'cause he will use it to his advantage. I learned that men who are like this (not only my ex) will lie and manipulate in order to make themselves feel better about their choices.