LovingBoundaries - no contact. The D did tell me it is the children that will talk to me this weekend. I will proceed with my plans as usual. I am going to keep the no contact <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> for I see I have to, need to protect myself, keep my safety and I see that if I were to give an inch, ex would take a mile. NO CONTACT!!!! It hurts the children, and I do care about them deeply. But they are more than welcome to go to exs' temporary place of residence and visit, and talk on the phone with ex.

Cherished, the win/win solution is an ideal avenue. Is wonderful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ! For I don't want the win/lose situation. I want to be fair, especially to my children. They deserve more than what has been dealt to them since the ex started his adulterous affair. They deserve to have each of their lives on a path of Gods path, with happiness and love from their parents.

When one person comes to another and goes on the path of stating there will be consequences to pay, is a threat. Treating the other with selfishness, threats is a win/lose situation. That was the most upsetting part of that conversation that was put upon me. But I know where the language comes from. And I am not upset with that person, I am upset that this person talked with demeaning words of threats. I do realize where the actions came from. And my heart is upset that this person feels this is valid communication.

When school is out, I will look into the tapes. For my life is of treating others with love and kindness. And abiding by the rules of the judge. The ex has defaulted with many of the rules of the judge, and therefore he feels he needs to lash out through the kids now. There is childish behavior being seen, by the ex. I see it. Ex keeps conversation from my ears. Been doing this while he was here before the no contact, and I did ask him to do it elsewhere. But he choose to continue on this demeaning path. But just like the affair, ex would talk to the ow in this house, even when the Harleys told him to take it out of the house. Ex didn't care, didn't think about anyone else, but him and the biology experiment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Ex is doing the secret talks most days, and I just realize that this man is one emotionally ill man. A man that is on the path of Satan, and burning.

I will not follow Gods path, and I will do what the judge has ordered, and I will do what is best to protect me, and keep myself safe. I do fear for my safety, and that has been a strong fear for about 5-6 years. And during his affair, he was so ballistic. For exs behavior was of ballistic actions! When one doesn't do what ex says, he goes on a rage. I used to have to hear ex complain about customers here at home, and he would ridicule customers here. I didn't think highly of the exs words, but I was afraid after the first few times that I said you shouldn't talk about people this way. Ex would say, whose side are you on. So I backed off, and just shook my head yes, or yes I heard him. I was not allowed to show my emotions. Which I realize that this was part of the controller and a controller rules.

Win/win is something that all of us should practice. When school is out, I will devote my time to reading and like you Cherished, getting the tapes out of the library. Could you give me the title, and author? Thank you.

Everyone have a joyous Easter, for Christ gave his life for our sins, and Christ during his suffering only looked out for the people who were abusing him and prayed for them. What faith, what courage, what love. Also, this is one year that our church has been open at our new building. We are celebrating the one year anniversary of our church. And now we are adding on phase 2. Praise the Lord.

<small>[ April 08, 2004, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Faith4me ]</small>

Faith4Me, My H broke my arm 12 days after surgery so extensive that I was in the hospital 5 days, had to wean our 10 month old child abruptly, and was put on Cipro to take care of a urinary tract infection -- and he did it because I was threatening to call the woman with whom he was in fact having an affair -- and it was one week before Christmas and I went through 3 surgeries and did not get my cast off until after Easter...

That is a story line that wouldn't be believed in the soap operas! And I can dwell on it and talk about my H who was abusive and cracked my skull and went running off to parks with a married woman with two young children of her own when we had four children under seven and on and on and on...

If you are talking about how bad your X is, you are doing something that is win-lose. Hey, I'm the master of that -- look at my posts, all 990 of them -- I'm almost up to 1000!

I read your stuff and think I have something to say but really it is like telling people at a church lunch that my goal is to not be busy -- blah blah blah -- and then realizing that we had four different kid events in the next 36 hours!

Anyway, what I have realized is that I am part of a dance with my abusive, adulterous H. It is not a Christian commitment to love and marriage that kept me in this awful mess. It is a warped view of Christian sacrifice and suffering as self-redemptive: in other words, I was trying to earn my way to heaven!

Harley's program is helping me a lot, but the main thing I am learning is that I stayed in the M because I had a win-lose view of being married, and I thought that it was Christian to accept that I was on the lose side. The only problem was that my H thought he was on the lose side as well.

How does this relate to your situation? I think it does. I think that you are revelling in your H's misdeeds. What is win-win about that?

The tapes I got on win-win negotiating are called The Complete Negotiator by Gerard Nierenberg. I have listened to one of four tapes. I need to think through what that first tape said.

Geeze Cherished, are you still with him? I hope not!

Yes, I am. Believe it or not, he's still in the church choir, too, just like he has been since he started the affair. In fact, he's singing at Holy Thursday services right now.

People can change, even a lot, and he is working hard. The broken arm shook him up, but he forgave himself very easily for the affair. He hasn't quite figured out what it did. Last week, we had a couple over to our house, and I don't know how it happened but the wife started talking about people who commit adultery and then go to church... God speaks through others.

<small>[ April 08, 2004, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Cherished, I am not celebrating in my exs' misdeeds. How do you handle someone that doesn't give one crap about you? It is hard! And I have realize that now, so he uses foul language, and uses his power against me. This is part of a controller. I have been through the control wheel and he fits it 98%. He manipulates, to get his way. He has not paid the Dr. bills and hospital and etc. for the surgery that I had to endure. Which he did to me. Which was ordered by the judge. I get calls and letters stating that I owe this amount. That I owe that amount. They even go through do you know how your credit is ruined? I want to go 'duh' don't you think I know, what should I do, sell my kidney and maybe I can pay the darn bill? They go into how this will be on your records and you won't have a good credit record! I want to say, I am not stupid as you think I am. I know, but where do you expect me to get the money? I told them I know, and that I can't do anything about it. I told them that I have no money, that I have a judge order that he is to pay the bills. But they don't care cause I was the patient. And of course ex doesn't care either. So cherished, why do you think that I am celebrating his procrastination (or not to pay at all) theory? This is all wrong. Where does he want the win/win? I see him just doing nothing about it, and letting the bills pile up, and he is fleeing off to Arizona to be with his science experiment(OW) and take the daughter with him out to Arizona. Do you think he wants a win/win solution? You have read his threads here on MB. Do you think he has my interest in his heart? Do you think that he is concerned about all the bad credit he has instilled on me, my oldest daughter, my youngest daughter? My oldest son is not letting dad touch any of his stuff. My youngest son the same. They have seen what has happened to me and their two sisters. So you think this is a win/win solution?

The reason I am so hard right now. Is I have gotten 3 calls today. I got 7 bills in the mail yesterday. I am writing everything down in chronical logical order. I am distressed and my ex just sits at his temporary residence, and doesn't even bat an eye at what he has done. Yes, it makes me darn mad. I am fighting for my life today and in the past. I told my son my feelings. I told him how dad treated me at the post office. I said, to my son, I am a good woman son, and I love you and the other 3, I said, that your father has done wrong and he is still doing wrong. I told him I feel bad for your dad, but what he is doing is his illness not mine. I did tell him that I pray for him all the time. And he is in prayer at church.

So could you clarify this win/win solution?

I have been getting all the bills together, and I am in a real mess. He has hospital bills that were not paid for the knee surgery that I had 3 years ago. He didn't even pay those. And of course he has bills himself that are about 6 years old that are not paid, for 2 surgeries on his nose and sinuses. Now my 2nd daughter has an illness and she had to have series of tests and procedures done, and those are adding up to about 6,000 dollars.

I wish, to get my life together. I wish to know that I have no one looking over my back to say, when are you going to pay this bill. I would like a clean slate. And there is no way a clean slate is going to happen, with his attitude towards medical bills. He has done this most of the marriage. His mother even talks to him about it, and he just ignores her too. For he has my oldest daughters credit soo... screwed up. She had 2 surgeries on her left hand, and the doctor would not see her for her broken arm 3 weeks ago, until the bills were all paid. Which I don't blame him.

The win/win solution to this, is he accepted the services rendered to himself and his family. He should pay the bill, for these doctors did take care of his family, in a timely fashion and with great care. To meet the reqiurements, the bills need to be paid.

I don't hate this man, but I do not like his actions. He is selfish, and only thinks about his pocket. Which is what the wayward spouse does. I just want him to start thinking fairly, and with compassion. Now if a customer doesn't pay him, he gets bent out of shape, and demands payment. So what makes it right for him to not pay and feel no remorse or guilt? I don't understand this at all. And then knowing that the bill is not paid, to go back and ask the same doctor to repair another part of the body. Makes no sense.

I will listen to the tapes. I am a fair woman. I do try to treat everyone fairly. And that has been my goal. I don't feel my ex has treated me fairly, as many of you have noted and said. Ex is selfish, and is involving the children in his selfish style. This is not the way that God wants my children to behave. I at times like this, just want to sell everything and move to a little place and sit there for days and rock back and forth and do nothing. I am so tired of fighting for my life. I am so tired of protecting myself from my ex. He is not a trustworthy man. He seems to get pleasure in hurting me, and demeaning me whenever he feels like it. Just like the post office. There was no call for his actions, but he said he yelled at me cause he was upset. So you are upset, why make a scene in front of people. I was so embarrassed.

You were mistreated by your husband. You are working on your marriage. And seems that your husband is very sorry for the injury that he inflicted on you. My husband is not. He has stated here and to me that it was meant to happen. He has never said, yes that he is a big man, and that he should of controlled his anger.

I talked with my son today. And we talked about the taxes. I told the son if he would, and he agreed, that he can relay a message to the ex. I told him what dad did at the post office. And I said I will talk to your father under one condition. That your father APOLOGIZES. I said, then I will think about the taxes. Ex wants to claim some of the kids on his taxes to reduce his tax base. My oldest daughter is following her fathers words and action. Which are not of Gods will. I feel sorry for her. She is not talking to me today, which usually follows after an episode. I will just give her time.

It is hard living, when you have your ex on you, you have your oldest daughter on you. And then I was able to talk to my oldest son, and he and I sat and went through numbers. I thanked him. And that is what I need. Someone to sit down with me and talk and look at #'s. Not someone just spewing out words and accusatory words with words of consequences to pay. Those all are threats. My son was nice, and I value his patience and logic. He is 20. We afterwards, had a nice dinner, and I even made a small batch of homemade oatmeal raisin cookies. Cause I wanted to, cause I love my children. I will go out of my way to do things for my family. Which I don't do as often now, cause I have to take care of myself. There is no one looking out for me.

So yes, win/win is my goal. And I am looking at winning and no one losing. I am also looking at taking care of myself, for there is no one to look out for me, but me.

Whoa Faith4me! Please take a step back and look before you leap.

You said:
"I told the son if he would, and he agreed, that he can relay a message to the ex."

You broke NC. NC means no communication to your ex through your daughter or your son.

You said:
"That your father APOLOGIZES. I said, then I will think about the taxes."

HUH? Even if your ex did apologize, you know it would be bull-oney just to get the taxes. Are you really going to think about DEFYING THE JUDGE'S ORDER (like your ex does)? Or is this something you'll "think about" in order to get an apology that will be blown in your face with hot air?

You said:
"cause I have to take care of myself. There is no one looking out for me."

YOU'RE not looking out for you either!

Please take a step back and reassess ok? Re-read this thread ok? I think your last post was really defensive/almost attacking--do you agree or disagree?

I think you're diving toward the black hole of despair. Pull back Faith4me! Take a step back and look at how this happened ok?

NC looked so good on you, even with a minor setback!! But that minor setback is quickly becoming a major disaster--again.

Please go COMPLETE NO CONTACT until you decide what you want and what you are willing to do to get it. I promise you I will respect your decision even if I think it's the worst decision you could make--but please make a decision that you are willing to follow through on, ok?

Take care ok? Please?

It is win/win for me to be sitting at this computer responding to you, because I am just barely grasping the concepts and it helps me to solidify them in my own thinking. What I mean by win-win really is is win-win or no-deal. It has to be in your H's best interest to pay those medical bills or it is no-deal. How is it in his best interest?

I have developed an aversive reaction to some words that don't sound very awful at all. Among them are "fair", "reasonable", "balance", and "support". To me, they are all code words for win-lose.

I went into M and had four children with the expectation that I would be M for life and we would be faithful to each other. Well, it was win-lose for him to give up Sophia, so he simply lied about contact with her. Had I had a win-win view, I would have pointed out to my H all that he had to lose from continuing the relationship: his integrity, time away from work, having to lie to cover up time with her, hurt for his children and his family, etc. NO, I didn't do that, all I did was have angry outbursts about how I'm not sure I can get over an affair. Well, he didn't care. He wanted out of our M anyway.

So -- applying this to your case. Your X simply doesn't care if he destroys your credit or your D's credit. That's not his problem. If the judge has ordered payment and there is no legal means to recover the money, then the win-win or no-deal philosophy means that you don't pursue him for recovery of the money. Instead, you accept that you need to find a way to pay for it. If that sounds unfair, since he is the one who created the medical bill in the first place, then try going to criminal court to pursue recovery as part of compensation for the injury. If that doesn't work, and there is no legal recourse and he sees no benefit to him of paying those bills, give up on guilting him into paying them because he won't!

Applying win-win philosophy to those creditors, you tell the situation and say that you don't have the money to pay but want to work on a payment plan or you need to consider bankruptcy. For them, it is win-win to get something from you rather than lose all payment because you have declared bankruptcty. It doesn't matter how much debt you owe -- you deserve to be treated with respect by those creditors. If they are not treating you with respect, write down word for word what they are saying that is not respectful and then contact your attorney general's office to place a complaint.

Those tapes are helping me very much. I was so deep into win-lose and victim status that I couldn't see straight. The only thing I knew for sure is that I didn't deserve to be cheated on. I sought counseling and Harley's program and tapes and books outside of that. It is really helping.

My H has brought up "I quit" and "You aren't following the program" and on and on and on. Daily. He's starting to stop. You know why? I stopped the win-lose approach of "You made a commitment to me" and "You owe me" and started the win-win or no-deal approach of "Your choice".

I've gone through all of Harley's books and listened to his radio show for nearly 3 years now but that isn't a good way for someone in an abusive relationship to understand win-win or no-deal thinking. Our mind is so clouded with "You owe me" thinking because we are committed to marriage, we have a Christian duty to forgive, and so we are in the "win-lose" philosophy bigtime. We don't ever consider the "no-deal" option.

Bottom line: you aren't considering the no-deal option. If it is not in your H's best interest to pay those medical bills, and it doesn't seem like it would be unless you had some sort of a legal process for recovering that money, then face the reality of no-deal, take responsibility for the debt because you were the patient, and work out a payment plan with the creditors or declare bankruptcy. If it is no-deal, what your X does is totallly irrelevant because he isn't going to pay. What is relevant is that you will face the reality that payment is win-lose for him so he won't pay so you need to find a way to pay.

Cherished - it is in the divorce degree that he pays the bills. The judge ordered it. So that is why I have to take further action. Which I am. I know he doesn't care about my finances, or anything about me. That is how the wayward spouse thinks, so be it. He injured me, and the judge was very upset with him, and also she ordered him to get insurance. She was really upset with him about that too. She did get on his case. So I have no other course, but to take legal action. For yes, he has no intention of paying the bills, I already realize that. And as far as payment, for myself to pay them off. What I get now for alimony, 3/4's go to food. No food stamps now for son turned 18. Deduct that 3/4's and leaves me with not much to pay bills.

The total bill is around $12-14K. I don't have the $$. And sure maybe I could pay $5 a month, or take and reduce the tithing to church. Yes, I am having a hard time. He is not concerned about what happens to me.

I do understand where the wording can be difficult of fair, etc. You have to be careful when choosing words, some people use semantics and turn things around. Being fair to my children is of the utmost importance to me. They have had to deal with this divorce, and it has been very difficult for them. They all are saddened and somewhat depressed about everything.

Lovingboundaries - You don't undersatnd the pressure that is going on around here and I am sure that ex is putting nasty thoughts into my childrens heads. Ex has a very short fuse, and uses manipulation to force himself onto others. Is his pattern for years. The secrecy, whispering. All of this is part of his pattern. Don't talk on the phone when mom is around. All of that stuff. But it is the pattern of a man who is a controller. It is all in the books. I read "Why Does He do That", and it is right there, plus many of the other actions he does. Controllers use these techniques.

I know that ex doesn't see where he is doing anything wrong. Cause he looks in the mirror and it is fogged. It is part of the denial pattern. The controller denies, for they don't see what they are doing, until they get professional help. Don't have much time right now. Have an appt. and need to get going.

Since when does it make sense to tithe when you can't pay bills?

I understand that the judge ordered payment. If there is no legal way to enforce that payment, then you need to find another way to pay. One way to start is to take the money now being given to the church and use it to pay your bills.

Give to Caeser what is owed to Caeser.

1. send a copy of the court order that states your ex is to pay the bills to all the creditors with a letter outlining where he lives and your financial dire straights.

2. quit engaging in any conversation with anyone who is not respecting your boundaries -- hang up, or walk away and lock yourself into the bathroom. END IT. Take "Boundaries" by Townsend and Cloud at your local church.

3. get some counselling for yourself -- even the church has free counselling -- go there and lay everything on the line.

You are so enmeshed in all of this. It's like you are trying to make your daughter "listen" like you tried to make your ex "listen". It's NOT going to happen. What you CAN do is change YOUR own behaviour towards all this. I have been reading your posts for MONTHS and MONTHS with the same stuff. Sorry, but there's a point where you have to sh*t or get off the pot. ENOUGH! Start making those changes and get out of the victim mode you are putting yourself into.

You are ONE intelligent woman. I read the posts to respond to others with wise advice and then read your posts and shake my head. What's wrong here? Why can't you make the same changes that you advise others to? What are you NOT telling us? This man comes around and you turn into this blithering, weak woman and now your daughter has learned how to do the same thing. There are days that I read your posts and want to shake you! You are a SMART, COURAGEOUS, STRONG, VIVACIOUS woman who has dealt with a whole lot of things in your life. You made it through ALL THAT! On top of it, you've brought your kids through some incredibly hard times and you are still making it!

You are NOT GOING TO LET HIM pound you into the ground with his actions and words. You ARE going to make it through this. Pull up your socks girl! You can get through this and you WILL get through this!

Ok, I know I said I wasn’t going to respond to these posts. But, F4M, when you attack the essence of a person, you had better be prepared for a fight. I have been letting everything slide that she has been saying, but there is one thing I will NOT let slide. And since I am addressing that, I will just address the other things as well.

This statement that F4M made:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did find that she lied to me today. Won't go into details, cause she reads her as well as ex. It upsets me that she thinks she should lie to family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am highly ticked off and I have every single right to be ticked off. Everyone who knows me, has told me at one point or another that I am extremely trustworthy and honest. This is the essence of me, this is who I am. Yet my mom had the guts to be so brash and say that I lied to her. I confronted her about this. You know what this lie was? When we were discussing the taxes and this was before things got heated, I had made a statement that I had talked to my brothers and never got to finish the rest of the statement and information regarding the statement. None of you have had the pleasure of arguing with my mom in real time. She is extremely good at changing subjects, going off topic and turning a conversation around to be about someone else, when things are starting to make sense that do not point in her favor or show that she was wrong. And, that is exactly what she did then. She completely took the conversation down another path, by bringing up the “other woman” (which I didn’t even want to discuss). So of course I forgot about the statement I made, especially since in this case, it wasn’t one of my driving points, it was just a statement and held no importance to me in the conversation. If it was something that she was concerned about, why didn’t she just ask me to clarify? Because, she would rather twist it all around and attack me, the essence of me. And, if you have any doubt in your mind that I am saying the truth, just read her quote. You all very well know she goes into every detail in this household. You all know she goes into every detail of my dad’s wrongdoings and her kids’ wrongdoings. What is stopping her now? The truth, she won’t go into detail, because there are no details, because there was no lie to explain. This is how much she “loves” us and “respects” us. She will say whatever it takes to get people to feel sorry for her, even if it means attacking the essence of her child.

Yes, I am not talking to her right now and she has no clue as to why. She thinks I am mad that she won’t redo the taxes. Even after our discussion about this “lie”, she still can’t grasp that I have every right to be mad at her for accusing me of being a liar. And, I will not talk to her until she apologizes for this (I am doubtful I will ever hear an apology, she does not like to apologize, because she hates to be wrong). These are the consequences she is going to pay. I have told her this before. She doesn’t think there are consequences for her actions. She thinks she can go around attacking people without facing any consequences. The biggest consequence she will face, will be losing her children, her family, the only people who truly care about her.

Moving onto the rest of that paragraph. Now that I have just given you guys a blatant example of how she twists the truth, or in this case just plain lies, I will address the other statements. It is plain and simple; I didn’t call her any names. The reason I know, is because I bit my tongue every time. She knows how to push my buttons and she was pushing them really hard, but I did not call her names or say ” f*cking bit about the kids”.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She wouldn't even listen to me, wouldn't give me a chance to state much. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, more lies, because I stayed and let her pull out the divorce decree and find the section that addresses the income taxes. It is a small paragraph and she read it out to me. I didn’t read it along with her, because I figured she would just read the paragraph as is. She said the divorce decree included the children, referring to the younger three of us four. At that point, I was a bit confused as to why a divorce court would even consider adult children. But, I believed her as she was reading from the paper. This is what she told you guys in her first post on this thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, the divorce decree states that I get to claim them for 2003. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah! Well, get this. Because things just did not make sense; later on I pulled out the divorce decree and went to that section. It said MINOR children, yes minor children. Nothing about adult children. She has NO judge’s orders to claim adult children on her taxes. She flat out LIED to you guys and you believed it. And, if you don’t want to believe me, I will scan that page, put it into PDF format and upload it to one of my servers, so you can read it. I will address this tax thing further down, because LovingBoundaries is way out in left field. Mostly due to lack of information and believing my mom’s tripe.

Further more let me give you guys a direct quote from the IRS.gov site:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can a court order determine who takes a child for a deduction? Does the court order supersede the IRS requirements?

Federal law determines who may claim a dependency exemption. Please refer to Publication 504, Divorced or Separated Individuals, for more information on the special rule for children of divorced or separated parents.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is useful information for all of you who file separately and have children involved. The IRS supersedes anything your divorce court says regarding taxes. So, no one should say “my divorce decree said so”. It doesn’t matter; it is what the IRS says.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She stated to me today, that this weekend that ex and her are going to talk to me and there will be consequences to pay. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, more lies. Why would I say that dad and I are going to talk to her? There is NC going on right now and we all know that. All of us kids have respected it. I never said anything about dad talking to her, not one word about dad talking to her. I said that us four children wanted to talk to her about this. And, you guys can see where she tried covering her tracks with this quote in the post that followed:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The D did tell me it is the children that will talk to me this weekend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Notice how she didn’t admit she was wrong, she just corrected the statement. That whole first paragraph from April 7th was meant to attack me and make me look bad so that she could receive confirmation of her being mistreated. But, as I have pointed out, it was all lies.

Continue in next post...

Now for the taxes. The reason I bring this tax stuff up, is because it goes to show how my mother will not respect or talk to her family. She just does as she pleases without talking to us. To my brother’s credit, he stepped up to the plate and sat down with my mom and discussed this tax issue. To my mother’s credit she listened and there was some positive outcome from this.

LovingBoundaries quickly attacked this step forward that my mother took. LovingBoundaries, my mom cannot just do what the heck she pleases and ignore the people involved with her life. She needs to cooperate, in this case, because she was wrong, not just morally, but legally as well. LovingBoundaries, you have nothing helpful to say and I’d appreciate it if you would butt out of our lives.

Again, I am quoting all this below directly from the IRS.gov site:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dependency Tests

The following five tests must be met for you to claim an exemption for a dependent.

1. Member of Household or Relationship Test.
2. Citizen or Resident Test.
3. Joint Return Test.
4. Gross Income Test.
5. Support Test.

5. Support Test

Generally, you must provide more than half of a person's total support during the calendar year to meet the support test. However, there are special rules that apply in the following two situations.

1. Two or more persons provide support, but no one person provides more than half of a person's total support. See Multiple Support Agreement, later.
2. The person supported is the child of divorced or separated parents. See Support Test for Child of Divorced or Separated Parents, later.

How to determine if test is met.
You figure whether you have provided more than half of a person's total support by comparing the amount you contributed to that person's support with the entire amount of support that person received from all sources. This includes support the person provided from his or her own funds. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the support test, exception #2 is not valid for this situtation, as these children are adults. I read through the Support test for Child of Divorced or Separated Parents and it was referring to custody, which obviously is not applied to adults. In our case, exception #1 may be the case, but we have to sit down and crunch the numbers. And, this is where the lack of respect comes into play. My mother did not do this, she just went ahead and filed her taxes without consulting anyone in the family. She did not ask either son or daughter if it was ok to claim them. Now, if they file their taxes, they can’t claim themselves. Talk about lack of respect. The daughter doesn’t even live at home. Both the son and daughter are maintaining an apartment and paying for their educations. Both of them worked last year. The amount that my mom helps with is not going to even come close to half as required by federal law. Both of these children take care of their own expenses and/or are mainly supported by my father. So, reading through this, my mother had no legal rights to claim either the 20 yr old son or 21 yr old daughter and she was morally wrong as well. She needs to admit this and work with us to fix this now messed up situation.

Being used by my father, this is all crap. I can think for myself, I am not stupid, I just don’t like unfairness and vengeance. My mom is consumed with vengeance right now and of course I am fighting against that. My dad never says a bad word against my mother, at least to us, and yet every day we hear from our mother about how horrible my dad is or she calls him names (Yes she cusses when she gets mad or is talking about my father). She is not the sweet little angel she likes to portray in her posts.

I hope you guys are starting to understand the extents this woman will take to seek vengeance on someone. She will destroy her kids if it means she receives confirmation of her being a victim and mistreatment or if she can get back at our father. I think it is interesting how obsessed her posts are with how God will punish those who do wrong. How dad will get his just desserts after he passes on. And, how good she is, and how God loves her because she is a good woman. She is very self-centered and so full of anger she is seeking vengeance herself and trying to use the Bible to make herself feel better. And, because she is so obsessed with being vindictive she is developing an evil side to her, as can be seen by the things I wrote in this post and the things she says in her posts. Once again, I can’t emphasize enough, she is doing this all to herself. She is alienating her family and complaining about it at the same time. She has to make a decision to either work with her family or to destroy it. No one can make this decision for her.

Diff View - You know what I sit here and I have read alot of your mom's posts and I am not sure who your dad is - and I have read your posts - And frankly as an outsider - I look at this and I think - Yup I can totally relate to Faith's hurt by being betrayed and by your exhusband having a girlfriend - a diff view - I hope something like that never happens to you - but let me tell you it is not something you can truly understand until you have lived through it yourself... But anyways back on track here... Your mother is absolutely hurt by your father - whether their marriage wasn't perfect or she wasn't a perfect wife - or he wasn't a perfect husband - the simple fact remains that she was hurt... That is a huge a thing to swallow - and sometimes it is a really hard thing to move on from... But you and your brothers and sisters - Give me a break - You are way to involved in this - you are analyzing everything as much if not more than she does... This is not your problem - this is your parents problem - This is not a happy divorce - you have got to get out from it - move out of your house - get your own life and stay out of your parents life.... I mean I know you say this is your home and your dad pays for it so be it... But my god get your own life... Your mother has to move on - she doesn't need constant reminders - about her ex from you - or better yet think that you are also betraying - her - Now their is the truth, his story - her story and in this case your story... But the simple fact remains - it is their Story - not yours.. As for the taxes - well if she filed them wrong - let the IRS deal with it - If your brother and sister were claimed and they shouldn't have been then that will come back to her and they will figure it your brother and sister or the IRS - it is not your problem.. And you should not be involved.. I think that your mother should pack up herself and her young children who are minors and move away from all of you and try to get some sort of order in her life away from all of you ... A person cannot heal with all of this still so much in her face.... A different view - get a different hobby and let your parents - divorce, marriage, taxes and what have you alone.....

I would agree with maw... Why are you in that house? You are 25! Your mother and father are not responsible for your bills!

Look at the movie Hud. I am not saying that your mother or father are like Hud, but I am saying that the nephew did the best thing he could by simply walking away from the situation empty-handed and starting his own life.

If your family lives in California, try Florida! Get an apartment, get a temp job, move on... You are being caught up in something that simply cannot help your own life.

I would also say that I hope you never experience the devastation that comes from your H turning to another woman while you are married. Harley on his radio program has said it is similar in pain to being told you have three months to live because you have inoperable cancer. The pain is beyond description. Both your mother and I have had to deal with abuse as well.

What you need is to get out, get away...

A different view, you said you wanted your mother to heal and you'd be there to help her?
?????

As I said previously - you could help your mom with love, understanding and RESPECT !

NEVER THIS WAY!

Or you came here to convince us that YOU are right? What do you need that for??? Unless you also have some problems and you have to deal with?? If so, speak up (although some of them we already see... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) - people here would be glad to try to help you too.

For the beginning, work hard on NOT picking up just bad things from BOTH of your parents...

And, please, stop "helping" her this way.....

Hi Faith4me,

You said:
"Lovingboundaries - You don't undersatnd the pressure that is going on around here and I am sure that ex is putting nasty thoughts into my childrens heads. Ex has a very short fuse, and uses manipulation to force himself onto others. Is his pattern for years."

I might not understand the INTENSITY of the pressure you are facing now, but one thing that is very clear is that when you are faced with this pressure you have a tendency to succumb and spiral down into that black hole of despair.

From your recent posts, it sure seemed like when you were in NC and not EXPOSING YOURSELF to the ex's pressure/games/whatever, it was much better for you. Since breaking NC, anyone who is reading this thread is seeing a REPEAT of what we have read many, many, many, many times before.

Faith4me, you cannot stop anyone from APPLYING pressure--but YOU MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES of what YOU will do when the pressure is on.

Please go COMPLETE NO CONTACT until you get your footing again. Please do not make any big decisions until you have your footing again. Any time you have given in under similar circumstances as you are in now, it has cost you plenty--and not just financially. What will you do this time Faith4me? Do you want to do it the same, or do you want to do it different this time? The choice is YOURS Faith4me--ALL YOURS!

Your minor setback after breaking NC about the taxes at the post office has quickly become a major setback for YOU, not your ex. You can still prevent it from becoming a complete disaster for YOU. What do you want to do? I will respect your wishes whatever you decide, but please make a decision that you are willing to follow through on--or willing to LEARN HOW to follow through on. The time we get practice in learning how to do something new is when we're in the middle of it--and you're in the middle of it now. What do you want to do now?

Faith4me, it's painful to watch you do this in the same ways as usual--the results will be the same usual results too.

You have said numerous times that you don't know why your ex doesn't see what he is doing and why does he continue to do these things. Your ex DOES SEE HOW YOU REACT and that is WHY he continues the same tactics--because YOU ALLOW IT TO WORK!!! The questions that really need to be answered are 1) Do YOU see what YOU are doing? and 2) Are you going to continue doing it, or are you going to learn to do something different?

I truly care about you Faith4me, and so do others here and others in your in-person life.

I strongly, strongly, strongly advise going COMPLETE NO CONTACT before making any major decisions.

Take care

Hi diff view,

I haven't read your post yet, and will read it a little later.

I'm wondering if you changed your mind about being supportive of your mom making her own decisions whether you agreed with those decisions or not (including NC)--OR--if you still want to be supportive and don't know that allowing EITHER parent to give/receive communications to/from the other is NOT supporting a NC decision that was made by your mom.

It is not fair to you for EITHER parent to use you or your siblings to contact the other indirectly. It sounds like this is the situation you are in, and I'm sorry if that is the case. You don't have to allow it, especially for things that are not anyone's business but your parents' and the judge's.

I will read your post later. I wish you the best in taking care of yourself.

Take care

ADV - I find your posting here to debunk your mother's spin on things extremely mentally ill behavior on your part.

Are you the Faith4Me Thought Police here? Do you really believe that this is an appropriate activity for you?

Get thyself to a shrink PRONTO. Your parents' mental illnesses are becoming your own!

Cherised..Wow...talk about going off topic here. Did I ever mention responsibility for my bills in my post. Umm...let me see...nope! And nowhere in any of my posts did I say my bills were someone else's responsibility. You need a refresher, go reread my old posts. My dad CHOOSES to invest in my business ambitions, I do not expect it.

Yes, I do want her to heal….Understand this though. I WILL NOT just sit by and watch someone falsely calling me a liar. I have seen her post tons of stuff that is inaccurate and I don’t care to sit here and correct it and I realize a lot of it is venting. However, she went too far this time and I will speak up. I have every right to speak up and defend myself. And, if you cannot understand that, I seriously have to question your ability to function as a proper human being.

And KaylaAndy for calling me “mentally ill”, who do you think you are?? Show me the book that says it is mentally ill behavior to be mad and defend oneself for being falsely called a liar! If you can show that to me, then I will believe you. Geez people, stop and think about the things you are saying. I know many of you have issues, but please don’t force your issues on my family, take them someplace else. My post was only discussing the first paragraph where she just blatantly attacked me and again it was only sparked by being termed a liar. Beyond that I discussed the rules regarding taxes and our situation with the taxes. The “thought police”, that’s very funny KaylaAndy, good one. Could be true if I were here correcting every word of hers. Except I am not, I was only concerned with one paragraph and the taxes. I guess the other upsetting thing is, is she didn’t confront me with this, she just goes and posts it on the www, for everyone to see. She didn’t care enough to even ask me about it and get her facts straight.

One other little bit of information for you all. You guys all made the assumption that her upbeat attitude for those two weeks was because of the NC. Funny thing is she changed her tune immediately two weeks or so ago, before the NC after I had talked matter of a fact with her. I had just found about my sister getting a job out of state. And told her well looks like everyone will be out of the house by the end of this summer. And, she said what do you mean? Well, the youngest is going to school at least 500 miles away and won’t be coming home except for Christmas. Sis is going to be gone, brother will be more than likely moving out of state as well. And I am moving out west. She started crying at that point, saying she will never be able to see me and stuff like that. I told her, unless you change your attitude, once I leave, I won’t want to see you for many years. I need a break from all this. She just gave me a very stunned expression and didn’t say anything. She got a hard dose of reality that day and it scared her. What she fears most is looming around the corner, and that is losing all her children. This is what changed her behavior, because it happened that same day I talked to her and the NC didn’t start for another day or two. I am not saying the NC didn’t help, I am just saying she changed dramatically before it was put into effect. But, then again this is her cycle. When she understands the consequences for her behavior, she changes, but can’t seem to maintain it. Things were going fairly well here, I was definitely more happy and was willing and did help around the house more. I mean heck, on April 7th, while she was gone in the morning I cleaned out the refrigerator, not a usual duty for me but she had requested it. She comes home doesn’t say anything about it and goes on these boards and falsely calls me a liar. I wasn’t looking for any praise or thank yous or anything, I just wanted to make her happy as I was happy. I sure as in heck didn’t think I was going to get stabbed in the back by my own mother. She knew what would hurt me and hit hard. So yes Belonging to Nowhere, I was there helping, and as usual was attacked; my mom just upped the anti this time.

The taxes are not just about her or about my siblings. It is about the family and her interactions with her family. Our family is now forced to give more money to the government, because of her actions. That is less money to be put towards education, vehicles, insurance, bills, etc… If the money was going to her, then I wouldn't give a darn about the taxes, because then the money would be in the family. I am part of this family so it is completely my business. I know some of you have a different view about family, but mine is you stick together even through tough times. As for letting the "IRS deal with it". So, you want the IRS in your life for something that was completely avoidable?? No one wants the government involved in their life and no we are not just going to let the IRS “deal with it”.

Furthermore, LovingBoundaries, the reason I got harsh with you in my first post, is that she does have to maintain contact regarding family things. You telling her that working through this tax issue is bad, does NOT help our situation at all. If she wants NC, then fine dad doesn’t come over, she is not involved with him with everyday things. However, there are some things she needs to discuss with this family, such as the taxes, maybe a child’s health concerns, maybe coordinating helping a child move, selling the house, big things like that. She can’t just run around doing as she pleases because she “has NC”, she needs to discuss these things with her children and get their input, suggestions, and/or concerns. And, in some cases these things needed to be discussed with our father as well. That is the way divorce works with children involved. You will always be connected to that person via your children. I still have no clue how holidays are going to work! That is something I really miss.

Yes, I understand that this all hurts her. However, I am disgusted that you guys would actually condone her vengeful behavior, which is extremely unhealthy. You don’t think I know what hurt is? You guys are arrogant enough to act as if you are a special group of people; that your pain is more than others’ pain. I have been hurt and betrayed by close close friends, business partners and the worst of all, my own mother. The dysfunction in this family has been going on for years and years. She has done her fair share of damage and betrayal long before the affair. She threatened the family with divorce for years and years. Her poor relations with me, my siblings and my dad existed long before any of this came up. What about everyone’s feelings around her? Mine, my siblings, my dads. My dad is a hardworking and caring person. He worked extremely hard for a long time caring for this family and still does. Yet, my mom makes him sound like he resides in the depths of hell. He has admitted what he did was wrong, he admitted to making poor choices and learned from his mistakes. He is passing those teachings on to us. It would be nice if my mother could turn this into a learning lesson. Yet she uses the affair as a weapon against my dad. She will not hold herself accountable for the dysfunction she put into the marriage and the family. Nor will she hold herself accountable for the hurt she causes now. Marriage is not in my future, for multiple reasons, but this being the main one. I am leery of it for obvious good reasons. However, if I were to be put in the position of an affair, yes I agree I would be hurt and unhappy. But, I wouldn’t let it define me or change me as a person. I would not use it as an excuse for a weapon to judge someone and attack them. I am who I am. Nothing bad will ever cause me to become a vindictive and mean-spirited person. If that were the case, I would be a mean and vindictive person right now.

It has been three years, she has had plenty of time to recover, yet she continues to look at being a victim.

Let me ask this? Would you just sit and watch your alcoholic family member drink themselves to death? Would you just sit and watch a family member physically beat another family member time after time? Would you just sit and watch your family member OD and die from a drug overdose? I would hope, if you had any sense at all, you would say NO. I would involve myself, I wouldn’t just run away, I would do all I can to fix the problem. This is the boat I am in and I will keep trying as long as I am here to help my mom heal. If my mom chooses to ostracize herself, then so be it.

Good luck!