Thanks again to all who have been there to offer advice and their sympathy, it REALLY helps. Sat down with the Mrs. two nights ago and confronted her on all the lies and phone calls made from her work. Basically told her I was through…done had enough, and have the emotional scars to prove it. She was made aware that I now had enough evidence to have more than a fair chance at winning custody of my two older ones, not to mention the paperwork to prove she was not all there mentally for an extended period of time from 2001 through 2003. That if she pushed me I would sell everything as it would have to be, and I would demand a jury trial in front of her peers. The documentation I have would more than put things in my favor if it came to a jury trial. After she tried to turn the conversation into accusations and make it unproductive, I told her I would not continue if she was going to raise her voice and call me names. She calmed down after that. No tears though. She asked me flat out, what do I want? I told her my marriage, but I was no longer going to tolerate her deceiving me, or playing me for the fool. The conversation started to go downhill from there. She said you can have everything, the house the two older kids... she would split the bills, but that she wanted to live on my property in the rental house until she could get her act together. She also wanted my assurance that I would not turn in the evidence I had to her employer cause she would never be able to wok in that field again if it came to light. I said no way I am I going to have you living n the same property, having God know who coming to visit you while I make the mortgage. She said I could put in the agreement that she would not have any male visitors overnight or visiting. I asked her once again, do you honestly think I am an idiot? I told her I loved her and she knew it by all of the crap she has put me through and I have not divorced her sooner. I told her that I would force the sale of the property if she tried that approach. I knew in my heart I could not handle her having boyfriends coming and going down my driveway, when she knew how I felt about her, it would be more than I could take. Back in mid 2001 she had all the kids against me especially her first born (my step-daughter) and made me aware that she was going to take me for more than half. I was actively reading MB back then and implemented a pretty darn good plan A. Guess it worked because she abandoned her plans to seek a divorce. Anyway, I started to lose my composure and I felt the tears just waiting to gush out of my eyes. I told her I did not want to break up the family, I loved her and sincerely wanted her as my wife, but there is a limit to what I can take. I told her one of the main components I require in our marriage was complete honesty…No more lies, deceptions period! I deserve and demand that, and if she could not give me that then there is no more hope and I will move on with my life without her. I let her know that every time I found more revealing her deception it continued to chip away at my trust of her. I said, yes I do love you but your actions have led me this point. We then went on to discuss the OM. I told her regardless of her saying she had a medical necessity to contact him regarding one of the children; I should have been consulted first before doing so. She said that I would just get angry and say no way. I pointed out to her that she had no regard for my feelings by carrying on conversations beyond her initial reason for contacting him. That her excuse that she was just chit chatting was unacceptable. I got a little upset and did a major LB by asking her if she and him were reminiscing there sexual escapades and planning their getting together once I raised the children. She said NO it was nothing like that!! Well how do I know that! I Flat out asked her how she would feel if the tables were turned. She said she understood how I feel. NOT! Doesn’t she realize how I feel about this OM who almost broke my family up, seduced my wife, and still tries to get her to leave me, keep in contact with her?. I just want him to go away, if there is such a thing as Karma I hope he gets his. I am really tempted to get a recorder hooked up to my phone line. I already have caller id, and she knows about that so she knows I check all incoming calls with an invoice I request from the Phone Company. Erasing them will not make them go away, but I really doubt she is that smart. I just recently had caller block set up and will now block any number that I cannot verify. I hate living like this, it stinks big time! I reminded her of the agreement we made more than six years ago that I would raise the children as my own if she would not contact him or have him be in my life in anyway ever again! Here is where I learned of the true meaning of WS FOG! She tried to rewrite history saying that she never agreed not to contact him! I said, you’ve got to be kidding me right? I got a little perturbed and reminded her once again that that agreement was the single most important prerequisite for us to keep the family together and did she really think that I would not remember whether she agreed to the condition or not! FOG FOG FOG! She was looking for me to backslide on what I remember clearly. Sorry I am fortunate to have excellent memory retention. I even quoted her remark 6 years earlier “If you raise these children as your own I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you. You have earned your crown in heaven by accepting them.” Obviously she cannot recollect that conversation. Anyway, the older children kept coming in the room interrupting the conversation so I got up from the table, upset and disgusted with her remarks. I kept my cool and did not say anything in haste. She got up and followed me and came and gave me a hug. Funny thing about my situation as opposed to others I read about here is that she continues to show affection. Maybe she thinks her affection will make me forget about it? Can’t say that I don’t want it but, it just confuses me even more as to what the heck is going through her brain anyway? I started to cry while hugging her and she just squeezed me in closer. I reminded her I want this family together and have been fighting for us and all we have worked to have for years but need her to be 100% honest from now on or we are through. She said she understood and proceeded to tell me she loves me. My brain was working a million miles a second at this point. The main part saying over and over again, if she loves me why does she do these things that hurt me so? I am still very confused…. I asked her if she really thought so little of me and so little of my love for her that she could conceive me turning over the documents and ending her career. She obviously does not think clearly at times. Logically what good would it do me to divorce her and at the same time terminate her only income? Yeah, like that will do me and the children allot of financial good..SHEEESH! Anyways, I let her know it is going to take her allot of continuous reassurance (and I am not talking sexual) to me to gain my trust back, that my emotional state is fragile concerning us do to her actions. I got the impression that she kinda of understood that I was at the end of my rope with this relationship and could take no more. Weird and reluctant is all I can say to describe myself this last couple of days. I have got lots of I love you’s since the conversation and even I love you with all of my heart yesterday morning. I am beginning to wonder if my lot in life is to be one of those lifetime, never needs replacing doormats you can get through a Harriet Carter sales Magazine or something. On another note she told me she was amazed at how I found out about the phone calls. She wanted to know how, but I would not tell her Let her stew on my detective prowess for a while as she knows I’ll be watching.. Really do not want to live my life constantly looking over her shoulder, but she has to make the next move and prove I am the only man for her. So…now that your pretty much up to date…Should I move myself from the Divorce/Divorcing board to Where? Can’t really say I feel like we are in recovery. Good news is that out of all of this, she agreed to finally fill out the EN questionnaire. She sometimes asks me if I get my advice from MB members and I tell her that the concepts of MB and its member’s experiences saved us before and the people here are genuine and sincere in their desires to help one another as well as themselves and their respective relationships. Now Any ideas on what my next move should be please reply? Thanks

I know you love her but can you ever trust her again after what she did? Does not sound like she has changed any.

If I were you I would continue with the divorce protecting yourself as you are now during the process.

She is not one I would want to ever live with if I were a man. Let her go to live with some "criminal man" or something. Like she really likes. And leave you alone.

Baba,
Thanks for replying, Call me dumbstruck or whatever, My original plan was to stay the remaining five years and finish raising my two midlle children, get my finances in order and leave, if things changed during this time then fine. I don't know..wish I had a crystal ball to tell me. Really do not want to put my children through the divorce. Another major sticking point is I love the little ones so much. I need to clarify the criminal thing, she never had any intimate contact that I know of with the person I described earlier, he was and most likely always be incarcerated due to his offense. I appreciate your candor.. I really do and I have heard the same advice from close freinds. I just cannnot answer why I continue to put myself through this?

Humble One,

This is a fascinating story, and could help a lot of people.

Would you consider breaking your posts down into several paragraphs instead of one big one. It would make it a lot easier to read and understand.

Thanks.

I think the kids would benefit more by being AWAY from such a woman. Especially in thier formative years.

Sorry about the humongous paragraph. I will try to break it up a bit. Yeah Baba I too thought of the ramifications concerning the children.

To my knowledge I have been able to keep the older ones sheilded from this ongoing saga. The middle girl however knows something is not just right.

Barring Baba's suggestion ( I mean no offence) what is the next step? We have tried counseling and the guy I picked did not even attempt to salvage the marriage. Turns out when we saw him individually the Mrs. was deep in the FOG at the time and really had no intention on working on anything? Hindsight is everything I guess.

Any and all constructive suggestions would help.

Green Gables Where are you?

HO, I have not abanndonned you! I was at 2 all day off-site meetings.
Plus, you can always find my email if I'm off-board for a few days. Greengablesmb@hotmail.com. (and anyone else who feels they'd like my opinion.)

Okay, I think we have to separate out how your wife feels from how she acts. "I love you" is a wonderful validation of our being. However, we know it has more to do with the reaction our behavior triggers in our spouse than anything else.

And "I love you" doesn't guarantee our spouses will show us care, protection, support or anything else.

And I'll tell you another little secret, loving someone isn't enough to keep them. They have to love you back. And Humble One, I sincerely wonder how much romantic love you feel for your wife any more.

I think we'd all understand your wife better if she were a man. If she were a man, I'd be tempted to see her as a philanderer. One of those men who simply feels entitled to more than one mate. Usually 2 or 3 on the side. They still love their wives. They're still affectionate and even reasonable. The sex is still great. But, they just have one or two or three others.

I think you need to continue down the tough path you started. And I think you need to protect yourself. A good Plan B letter explaining to your wife why you can't be in contact with her any more is in order.

Do this while she loves you and while you feel some love left for her and then see what happens.

I also think it was a very good idea you played hard ball. And about the twins, I think the court will look upon you as the father. Therefore you could get custody of them as well. What does your lawyer say about this?

And don't let her womanly wiles stick you back where you were. You know she uses affection and ehem, sex, to keep you from changing the situation. She may not do it consciously, but she does. So don't let her.

No more hugs. Got it?

And no way does she live in the rental house down the road.

I'm so sorry for you Humble one
I am in a different situation now but I originally came here looking for info on infidelity many many years ago due to a relationship that had ended. In that case we did not end up getting married but I was deeply in love.

In fact when I came here it had ended but I still was "stuck" The reason I belive is due to the type of person I was involved with. He treated me very very well. However he cheated on me. Like your wife he also was fully capable of continuing to show me affection while having an affair. He had one PA and one EA that I know of . During both of these he acted no different than when he was not having an affair. Moreover nothing was "wrong" between us. I dont think he was lonely and I think he enjoyed his time with me.

The ability for someone to be very nice and loving while doing something this extreme reeks to me that their conscience is lacking. I know lots of people may make half way attempts at being sincere and affectionate while having an affair, but when they pull it off as smoothly as my ex did I dont think that is the norm. I believe this type of person believes they are entitled to have an affair for some reason.

This guy I really loved so many years ago wanna know what I think of him now looking back? What a manipulative SOB. This great guy that I got along with so well, 100% fake. This guy KNEW that if you are really nice to someone all the time when you are around them, they will have a very very difficult time leaving you no matter what you do behind their back. This is some kind of secret these manipulative people know that I did not. But I know it now and I have now watched as other people do it to spouses and boyfriends.

I have now seen it amoung women looking for someone to support and care for them and also in some looser men looking for a woman to care for them. Its possible you have married someone like this , as a friend of mine did. My friend married this woman and adopted he child. They went on to have two more. But she ran a game on him the whole 15 years they were married. I hope this is not the position you are in.

If I were you I would hope for the best but plan for the worst. Maybe just keep getting your ducks in a row so you can do what you want to do in the end. Take your time and get yourself emotionally healthy. I am in a situation now myself and also feel worn out. I am also giving myself permission to get myself together before I make any huge moves. I am being very nice to myself but I am moving forward looking out for me this time.

I suspect if you ever seperate you will hear even more "stories." Of course I dont have a crystal ball that is just my feeling. Your wife sounds extremely manipulative, almost like an alcoholic. Maybe you should attend an al anon meeting some time. Those people can "enlighten" you on manipulation probably more than anyone else as alcoholics are probably the most manipulative people on the planet. Your wife sounds like a master. I am sorry.

Unfortunately, this story sounds all too familiar. I went through virtually the same type of situation. My marriage had been steadily deteriorating over the years until the point that I just could not take the neglect of my emotional needs anymore.

I continually communicated with my wife about how my needs were not being met and that the situation needed to change. I also have a five year old son which made the situation even harder to come to terms with. I did not want to break up my family which I held so dear, but I also could not allow myself to be treated like I was being treated any longer.

It is ironic that when you made the choice to make a final "this is the last straw" and "these are the things that have to change" speech or else, that she miraculously started saying that she loves you and shows you affection by hugging you. I don't want to be mean, but what a joke!

It is a game she is playing with your emotions. My very soon to be ex wife did the same thing. All of a suddent when her back is to the wall, she is the nicest person in the world. Greengables makes a good point. Saying "I love you" is all fine and dandy, but what are her actions telling you.

Look at how she has hurt you over the years. Look how hurt you were and continue to be because of the deceit and the lying and the neglect. Don't let her manipulate you into believing something that I can tell by your letter you don't believe anyway...that you can trust her.

I keep reading your post over and over and see the similarities so much with my own situation. I am not a counselor, and I am not an expert, but from my own personal experience I can tell you that you should not feel like a doormat anymore. You need to think what would be the best situation for your children and yourself. It appears as though you have tried for years to get through to her your feelings of hurt and mistrust and all you got back was manipulation of your conversations and your feelings.

You said "Really do not want to live my life constantly looking over her shoulder, but she has to make the next move and prove I am the only man for her."

Why? Why should it ultimately be her decision? Do what is best for you and your children. She has had her chance to prove herself to you for a long time and continues to hurt you. It sounds as though at some point in time, you had made the decision that you could not take it anymore. Follow through. Don't let her temporary feel good comments and actions manipulate your real feelings. Staying in an unhealthy situation will only make matters worse for yourself. You shouldn't have to basically bug the phone, wonder what she is doing all the time, go through the frustration all the time.

I know it is tough to feel as though your family would be breaking up, but I went through those same feelings as well. It is only normal to fear the unknown. Let your true feelings lead you to the path of what you know is right. You deserve better than this and so do your children.

Ditto to the last few posts. Your wife is like Saddam. Look at all the chances we gave him before we finally nabbed him...

But what a waste. Of time and life. Trying to reach a woman with no morals and no concience.

She has no heart and truly does not care for you or anybody but can "play like a woman with a heart" for a couple days to string you in.

Can you finally see thru her "acting job" and the "lines she says to you" and see her for what she is?

If you can finally see the truth about her true character, you can clearly see the action YOU MUST TAKE.

I am not sure you really SEE her yet. Perhaps you are in a bit of a fog yourself and still hope she might change for good.

Actresses can always learn new lines but when they get off the stage, at the end of the night, thier actions show the truth.

Don't waste a lifetime with this woman.

In fact, don't waste another precious moment!

Thanks for the replys,
I have been doing some thinking lately and also gone on a LB offensive last night. I finally told her that I am burned out menatally and physically over the pressure she allowed me to assume in regards to being Mr. Everything from the kids to the bill, to the repirs and maintenece of the House. She could do nothing but agree with everything I pointed out. To top it off I am also dealing with an insubordinate teenage son and daughter who have what I refer to as the "it is all about me attitude." The pressure built up from the minute I got home last night till I just could not take the pressure anymore. I literallly told my son to get out of my house and take a walk for a while. He was so rude and insubordinate all over the fact I was not going to drive 20 miles into town and buy him a music Cd he wanted. He has not cleaned his room for 4 days, yet i ask him daily to do it. I donot hit my children and have read so many different approaches to remedy the situation. His mother on the other hand is sleeping while all this is going on. Boy I could go on and on. Rant Rant Rant.. Vent Vent Vent.. Whew Now I fell better...

Green Gables and Baba, thank you for your opinions and concern. Call me an idiot if you want but I have not filed yet.. I have so many extenuating circumstances going on right now, my mind is a pile of scrambled eggs.

What I really need right now is a gameplan to protect myself emotionally. Plan B unfortunately is not an option right now, nor is going away for a couple of weeks to screw my head on straight. I need a plan that is a in house plan for the moment. I am not too concerned about waiting too long to eventually file as the documentation I posess in a safe place is more than enough to convince a jury I need to get custody. Kida of cool in warped way that she was going to take the house, get alimony and child support just two years ago, now I just had to wait and give her enough rope and the tables have turned. Sorry.. I know not productive thinking.. Appreciate youguys being here listening and offering suppor.
HumbleOne

Also, she knows I use this site, and am Slightly concerned that she could use what I say against me. She does not however know my screen name, nor do I post from home.

I don't think there is one thing you've said that could be used against you. But, hey, I'm not a lawyer.

I suggest you divide the area. Is there another bedroom you can use? That's the first thing. No more sleeping together.

Next, I'd carefully explain to her that you will be caring for the children. Cooking for them like you do, doing laundry, and maintaining a basic level of cleanliness. BUT you won't be doing her laundry, or fixing her car or any of those other things you may have done.

I think the other thing you may do is offer her "time alone" with the kids one night a week. And tell her that except for that time, she's free to come and go as she pleases. So basically, you're encouraging her to spend as little time in your home as possible.

On another thread, some suggested getting a credit card in your name alone, and writing to all the credit card agencies that you won't be responsible for your wife's debt from this date forward. Make sure you include her social.

<small>[ April 09, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]</small>

I'm so sorry your going through this. I know it must be tough. The positive thing is we know your on the right path. You are taking action and that is a big change.

Just try to think of your wife as some stranger for now. Or a cousin who you may not particularly like.

Take some walks yourself when things get tough.

I read a ton. It helps to keep your mind occupied.

Thanks GG,
Not much to worry about sharing the bed at least not 6 nights at a time as she works 6 on 3 off. I told her last night she needs to atart picking up some of the household duties as I am burnt out literally. She complained that she is still not getting enough sleep. This may be true in one sense as by the time she gets home we all are leaving 1/2 later. she then has approxiamtely 6.5 hours before she has to pick up the wee ones from Pre-K. This morning I made arrangments with the sitter to pick up the wee ones and either drop them offat the house while he is there or keep them till I can pick them up after work. The later option will cost me $ and I do not have much to spare right now. But if the first option works she will have from 7:30 to aroung 3:15 to sleep with no one at the house.
See I am at wits end, I ahve manged to do 95% of the housework and etc stuff for the last 7 months , but have found that I have NO time for me..
If I let the household chores lapse, the carpet, walls, doors, bathrooms, kitchen , you name it . will look horrible. No I am not a clean freak, but cannot live with clutter, toys , wrappers, dirt clothes and all not mentioned scattered all over the place. Essentially I have not invited any freinds over for fear of the embarrasemnt of what the house would look like.

As far as things that help, I am a avid gardener, like to grow veggies and bulbs, etc. My solace is doing those things and I have a substantial garden already growing. My house is 4 bedrooms, 3 bath approximatley 1800 sqft. The teens each get a room and the twins share one, just leaves the master. I try to make sure the teens have a little privacy even at my current expense.

I don't know GG what my next move will be. I have worked so hard building and working the land I own, I do not want to give all that up , but may be forced to.. I guess If Ihad no CS and she took half the bills i could swing keeping the house but it would be really tight. There is no equity at this time so if I sold I would break even most likely. She definately could not keep the house and pay the utilites, car insurance etc. unless she got a wad of dough from me in a big D. Alimony would nt be considered as she has held a steady career job with benefits for more than 2 years.
So many extenuating circumstances, too much to think about all the time.. Calgon take me away!
Anywho, why do I still feel if she would just be honest and stop all the lies that she did before and really put forth an effort, do I feel like we can work things out. At least right now, I did tell her that I am running the ship, and she can either take that voyage with me or get off at the next port. Why do I keep putting myself through this anguish? I do love her oh so much, but do not fell in love at this time that is gone, along with the trust. Also, a part of me feels that If I do leave her she will make some really bad choices, based on her track record, and suffer whether it be financially or end up with some jerk down the raod. I have not gotten to the point where I can honestly say I don't care what she does or how she ends up.
Thanks, and I will look forward to more suggestions and comments.

I feel for your situation since it is very similar to mine as you saw on my other post.

Believe me, it is very difficult making that leap to decide that enough is enough. I truly do understand your last paragraph and they are the exact feelings I had before I made the hardest step in the process...that is making the decision to move on.

You say "At least right now, I did tell her that I am running the ship, and she can either take that voyage with me or get off at the next port. Why do I keep putting myself through this anguish?"
----> It's because you want to believe that YOU will make her understand your feelings with ultimatums. The fact of the matter is that SHE has to understand your feelings and SHE is the only one that can change herself. You can talk till your hearts content, but if she doesn't choose to change, she won't. Looks like you have gone through many years of no change.


You also say " I do love her oh so much, but do not fell in love at this time that is gone, along with the trust. Also, a part of me feels that If I do leave her she will make some really bad choices, based on her track record, and suffer whether it be financially or end up with some jerk down the raod."

----> You will always have love for her in some ways. She is the mother of your children. You and her will always have that connection. On the other point, you have to tell yourself that if you do leave her, it was because of how she made you feel and you want to make yourself feel better by getting away from all of the anguish and frustration.

Don't hang on because you feel like she can't take care of herself. She is a grown adult, let her be responsible for herself. So she makes a bad decision...financially or personally.....were all of your decisions in life the correct ones? Probably not..but I bet you learned from them and made a better decision the next time. That is what she has to do for herself.

I am not certainly pushing you in any way to make the decision to divorce. You have to make that choice...no one else will make it for you. Look into your heart and understand that there is nothing you can do or say to make her change her ways...she must change herself. It seems as though you have come to the conclusion that you do not want to put up with it anymore. If you truly believe what you have said in these posts about being fed up with it, then take action. The hardest part of it all is finally making the decision to move on. After that, it gets a little easier every day.


Good luck.

HumbleOne,

There is a problem in your thinking. First the information you have will age. You will not be able to argue that you deserve the kids, the house, whatever, if you continue to live with W after finding out all that you have apparently found out.

The excuse of 'but I love her' will not fly when you are willing to risk your children by having her live with you. Hence you are on the clock.

Next, someone earlier pointed out that "I love You" does not mean any change. Have you seen a change in behavior? Has she done anything to edcuate herself, address her issues, figure out anything but that you are not happy?? If not, buddy you can wish all you want, but you are still married to the same woman. You claim if she were honest it would help. Really? Well if she honestly tells you she is meeting some guy, does that help you? I don't think so, because honesty does NOT mean the actions have changed.

Bud, this is like playing defense in basketball. You train kids to watch the belly button because no one goes anywhere without one. Hence all of the fakes, jukes, whatever won't work if you watch the belly button. The equivalent in marriage is watch the actions. And from what you have said, they have not changed.

A good marriage requires a reality check, hence Dr. H's "radcial honesty" requirement. But "honesty" will not make a bad spouse a good one. They must be willing to change their actions and usually that means changing their perspective on things, and that usually means they have talked to someone who helps them, or they read, or they pray, or...

Has that been happening??

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

What some of us are trying to say is that if her actions and her very heart and soul do not change, then she is the same as she was and will end up doing the same things and acting the same ways. She will hurt you and the kids the same as she has always done.

So, why torture yourself hoping she will change. Unless you see major changes INSIDE her and in her ACTIONS, she is not changing. How long ya gonna hope and wait while you sit in pain and drama because of her antics.

Do you crave DRAMA and NEGATIVE ACTION in your life and that is why you feel comfortable and want her around?

Let's change Baba's question to make it more open ended. What do you get from maintaining the status quo?

Because what we hear are a lot of reasons why you should stay where you are rather than change the situation.

Let me say something else too. You wouldn't marry for money, would you? Then why would you place such a high value on money now, that you're willing stay married for money?

Provided you won't be truly living on the streets, you'll be fine if you separate and/or divorce.

The time is now.

And look, I know it's not easy. It's scary. And even when you know you did your best, you may feel a twinge of guilt. I do.

So since plan a hasn't worked and isn't working, let's try Plan B. Or plan S or Plan D. Your choice.

Can you trust your wife is one question. The other one, and perhaps much bigger, is can you trust your own judgement in regards to your wife?

I have often thought that my WW decieved me so well for so long that I could never trust myself to evaluate if she was being honest with me.

She would have to be 110% transperant to me to regain my trust. Since she currently has no plans to leave OM, I am not worrying much about it. I hope you have better fortune.