Well, the divorce club in Texas seems to grow exponentially. Seems like, lately, I know more people who are getting divorced than I do who are staying married. Anyway, I have a friend that is getting divorced whom I've been helping with various things. He's been having some problems. I was hoping that all you wonderful folks could help. Let me start off with a brief recap of the sitch:

K, here's the deal, I won't mince words. Have a very good friend who's in the throes of divorce. The original plan was to do the shared custody thing, was going to be easy ... done in mid-May. Well, that all went to hell in a handbasket.

Suddenly, this completely uninvolved mother wants full custody of their three children, ages 11, 6, 15mo. I say uninvolved, she was EXTREMELY involved until after the littlest was born. My friend has practically raised the littlest one single-handedly... but, anyway, in the last six months she's been completely uninvolved: out late nearly every night, overnighters at "a friends" doing "girls nights out" EVERY single weekend, trips that supposedly were supposed to be "paid for" by her wealthy friend ~ but end up costing over 800 dollars a pop, lots of out of town trips to California, sudden weight loss, spending habits and moods have changed... I think we know where this is going. He could really care less if she's seeing someone at this point, but it does bother him that she's completely self-absorbed and could give a damn about their kids.

Anyway, she comes home on January 1st and says she's done and wants a divorce. That she loves him as a best friend, but that they don't love each other as spouses should. He agrees, but was slightly suprised as they had always said the kids should come first and that they needed a two-parent home. But, he said given her current behavior patterns, maybe that wasn't all bad.

First it was joint custody, now, she wants primary custody and child support (even though she makes more $$ than he does). He doesn't want her having primary custody because of afore-mentioned behavior patterns and because financially, she's COMPLETELY unstable. She's run up tons of debt, she NEVER pays her bills (he's always having to run around and take care of the bills she's told him she's paid so things don't getcut off), her car is a breath away from getting repossessed, ect. So, he doesn't want to give her child support because he doesn't want it being squandered on goodness knows what. Says he's more than happy to buy whatever clothes they need, send them to extra-curricular activities, ect. But, that they make over 100k a piece and he doesn't feel like he needs to support her lifestyle when she clearly can't handle her money ~ is concerned that he'll fork over all that money and the kids still won't have what they need.

But mainly, he says that their whole life is built around him. He is home for them when they get home from school, he does their homework with them, he feeds them, gets them ready for bed, has a special bedtime routine that he does with each of them EVERY NIGHT WITHOUT FAIL, he plays with them, has dedicated his whole life to be centered around his kids. Always has; they're his first priority.

She's different; there's no doubt she loves them, but there's also little doubt that right now, she loves herself more. The kids are stressed when she's around because she's always running late and is disorganized. She doesn't really spend a lot of time with them, even when she's home, she's doing her thing and expects them to do theirs. She'll take them out to do things when it's convenient for her and rarely wants to be responsible for the baby. They have no bedtime routine with her and my friend says that really is important to the kids.

Bottom line, he was going to go along with the joint thing for the sake of convienence, because he didn't want to haveto go through a messy fight that might potentially hurt the kids and get very expensive (he's spent all their money cleaning up her financial binds, which is kinda his fault, too, for knowing she was financially incompetent and not doing anything about it). But, now that she's blown that out thewindow, he wants to make sure that they get the kind of childhood and the routines that they need: that they're with someone who'll put them first. Unfortunately, he doesn't have tons of money and he is scared to death there's no way for him to win because, really, how does he prove any of this?? He said he felt like the work thing was his best shot, but apparently her boss is willing to write some kind of note saying that she can come home at three every day, though they've said that tons of times before and she never, ever does.

That's the story, I took it off the MBReunion board. Let me add this to this mix: her financial quagmire is spiraling out of control and it's taking him down, too. She's writing him bad checks, taking her car to the shop so now she can't make her half of the rent and she has NO money. She already owes him money, but she's never going to pay him because she's never going to have money, too. She wants to keep their nanny because it is great for their littlest, but the fact of the matter is they can't afford it .. and she refuses to see it. So, he ends up paying for that, too; and it's affecting his ability to get the new house he's signed a contract on, his ability to pay for his lawyer, and his ability to get ready for the move they HAVE to make at the end of May (their rental is being sold). He's at a TOTAL loss to what to do and can use any of the advice you can give!!!

Hmmmm... wonder why no one's responded to you. Personally it would be easier if your "friend" was the one posting here. Sounds to me like you are a "female" friend of the "friend" trying to help out. How come he's not here? <---- I'm a curious sort. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suddenly, this completely uninvolved mother wants full custody of their three children, ages 11, 6, 15mo. I say uninvolved, she was EXTREMELY involved until after the littlest was born. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless you were living there 24/7 -- it would be pretty hard to judge whether she was there or not. I too was told I was "uninvolved" too until the last one was born. She was born and I realized that I had to make it on my own -- went back to school full-time, had a father dying, my husband was screwing around on me -- so potentially yes, I would *appear* to be uninvolved, UNLESS you lived in the same house with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He could really care less if she's seeing someone at this point, but it does bother him that she's completely self-absorbed and could give a damn about their kids.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes parents ARE self-absorbed. An it interests me that his *friend* is worried about this more than he is. Maybe she does give a damn about the kids, but differently than how he looks at the kids. You can't be judge and jury without walking in her shoes. If anything -- be a good "friend" and help those kids out. Take them out for an ice cream. VOLUNTEER to watch them while the TWO PARENTS go for marriage counselling to keep their marriage together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He doesn't want her having primary custody because of afore-mentioned behavior patterns and because financially, she's COMPLETELY unstable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course he doesn't want her having primary custody -- and I'll bet it's because she's been beating the kids, feeding them junk, exposing them to her *lifestyle* and dragging them around in her car to the bars and the like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Bottom line -- the judge DOESN'T CARE what she's doing in her personal life as long as it doesn't affect the kids. The judge doesn't care if she doesn't have a car, as long as there is public transportation. The judge doesn't care when and how she pays her bills or how much debt she has as long as the kids have food, clothing and a roof over their heads. What the judge DOES care about is how will she be a co-parent. How WILL she provide stability? Does she have a live-in boyfriend or *friend* that is constantly around? Those are the things that the judge cares about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But mainly, he says that their whole life is built around him. He is home for them when they get home from school, he does their homework with them, he feeds them, gets them ready for bed, has a special bedtime routine that he does with each of them EVERY NIGHT WITHOUT FAIL, he plays with them, has dedicated his whole life to be centered around his kids. Always has; they're his first priority.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If this is true, and a Guardian for the children is appointed (because there WILL be one appointed if there is a custody fight) -- these are the things that stand out. He won't have anything to worry about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's writing him bad checks, taking her car to the shop so now she can't make her half of the rent and she has NO money. She already owes him money, but she's never going to pay him because she's never going to have money, too. She wants to keep their nanny because it is great for their littlest, but the fact of the matter is they can't afford it .. and she refuses to see it. So, he ends up paying for that, too; and it's affecting his ability to get the new house he's signed a contract on, his ability to pay for his lawyer, and his ability to get ready for the move they HAVE to make at the end of May (their rental is being sold). He's at a TOTAL loss to what to do and can use any of the advice you can give!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you don't have money for RENT, you don't have money for a nanny. END OF STORY. If you can't AFFORD it, You don't PAY FOR IT. You have to let it go. Sounds to me like there are a lot of "extra's" around the house. Both of them make 100K a year and they can't handle their money? How much is this house he's buying? How much is her rent? Maybe BOTH of them need to consider debt counselling. The judge will take into consideration BOTH salaries, but BOTH will have to contribute to the children's support, dependant on where those children will go to live. The truth of the story is "TWO CANNOT LIVE LIKE ONE" You can't split up a household and expect things not to change. They change in big ways -- and the first hit is financially. Whatever the wife does with the child support will be none of his business. How she spends it will be none of his business. She may spend it totally different than how he would and probably buy things he wouldn't. Thing is, they will be separated and he will have no control.

And a final word of wisdom *friend*. Most times friends are there to support their friends. Yes you do want to help, but perhaps you could be more of a friend by pointing him in our direction, offering some childcare help while the two of them go to marriage counselling to sort this mess out. Divorce is NOT nice -- and it's NOT fair to the kids. MOST times it does end, and if it's with an abusive spouse, it ends badly -- with the only thing left is healing for the children and the abused spouse. The truth does come out, and your friend will be telling you his part in this split eventually. I hope to God that you are a "friend" that is not of the female/single type -- because quite honestly, the best thing you could do is to step away from this man and let him sort his life out.

First, of all, I am a FRIEND. True Webster's Definition of. And, I find it interesting that you think I haven't already offered the suggestion of reconciliation, marriage counseling and the like. The reason he's not here is because I haven't shared with THEM about MB. Why? Because this is something that I'd like to keep seperate from my FRIEND... call me crazy, but there are SOME things in my life that I wish to keep private. I have mentioned many times that it would be a heck of a lot wiser, and perhaps better for them both, to seek counseling prior to divorce. I've offered to help watch the kids, I've offered reading material, names of counselors, bible studies, etc. The issue is that she doesn't want to do that. She doesn't want reconciliation, she wants a divorce. Which, I guess, is her right, is it not? Does that mean he shouldn't get some kind of support because what, he's a man and I'm not? Elan, I don't know you and you certainly don't know me.. but I know what's appropriate at this point and what's not. And I've taken extreme pains to stay above board. I don't really appreciate the insinuation otherwise.

Secondly, as a FRIEND, I queried you folks because there are many people here who HAVE been through this. I can't really offer good guidance because I'm not dealing with these issues in my divorce. And I don't want to take pot shots at her; I personally have no beef with her except yes, she IS completely uninvolved (at least by my standards of what a mother's involvement should be, which by no means is definitive, but it is my opinion and it is my post) and fiscally irresponsible. I would LIKE to be able to offer decent advice and realize that, in this situation, I have nothing to draw from. So, I figured I could post here and get some feedback that might be useful to him without having to actually bring him here.

I realize that divorce is not nice, by it's very nature; I don't necessarily agree that it's not sometimes the best course of action. He owes me no explinations, but I know he was emotionally negligent/borderline emotionally abusive to her for several years early into their marriage. There is none in a marriage that are really free from blame when it falls apart, is there?? I posted only what I see and have heard from them and their children. I am not that "single friend" sort.. I have my own issues to deal with at the moment, he truly is a FRIEND, nothing more. But, he's also nothing less and I'd be remiss if I didn't try to be helpful. Thought coming here would be, obviously, not so much.. think I'll stick with Reunion and the therapists... thanks SO much.

Also, Elan, I have to say I'm extremely disappointed in your legal advice. I DO know that's incorrect. The judge most certainly cares about ALL the things you said he/she wouldn't, because it ALL factors into "the best interests of the child." Maybe it's not where you live, but, in Texas, that's kind of a big deal. Furthermore, it's asinine to say that it's none of his business how child support is spent. If their kids end up running around in rag-tag clothes, or are malnourished (not that they would be, it's an extremist example, but I'm trying to prove a point).. don't you think if he's already giving her approx. 30 percent of his income that might impede his ability to be able to provide for the kids AGAIN what they're not already getting that they should be? I should think it is not only his business, but his responsibility, to monitor that to the best of his ability so that if the children are NOT being properly provided for, he can do something about it. Remember, just as not all Dads are deadbeats, not all mothers are the best choice for the child. And, just so you don't think I'm slamming her, because I'm really not.. I would definately say there was a time frame I fit that category as well.

One more thing, noticed your note about the nanny. He KNOWS he can't afford the nanny; he can't get her to see it. The question really revolved around when divorcing, a:) how do you determine the best interests of the children and b:) in the best interests of not only the children, but for both her and himself, how can he help her get a realistic grasp on the budgeting? He can't keep bailing her out and she can't keep spending like that without hurting their kids. He KNOWS two cannot live like one; she doesn't.. and he needs help trying to help her see that before they BOTH financially drown. That was my point.

a:) how do you determine the best interests of the children
Almost always the income of the family prior to splitting up is used as a starting point.

b:) in the best interests of not only the children, but for both her and himself, how can he help her get a realistic grasp on the budgeting?
He's not gonna make her do anything about that.
If she's spending it all and not support the children properly, he needs to go for custody.

Well I don't live in Texas! I have been in court 42 times, plus more in my occupation before the divorce -- so, in my land it certainly doesn't matter to the judge if a parent buys clothes from the thrift store or the GAP. In most states/provinces, Children's Services does not specify what kind of clothing the children should be wearing. As for *providing* for the children in the manner in which they have become accustomed to -- perhaps in Texas they allow a parent to totally deplete their finances to make sure the parent with the custody of the children are not financially affected at all. In my province (yes, Canadian) -- the families are never in the same financial position, nor is what's in the best interests of the children taken into consideration most times. It's basically get the cases in, shuffle them out. It's a business. The wheels of justice do turn, but ever so slowly. If these two people can't get their poop in a group, so to speak, then don't think the judge will "make her see the light" -- cause it just won't happen! As long as those kids are clothed, fed and a roof over their head, the judge is not going to tell her how to spend the child support and how to parent those kids like their father wants her to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Furthermore, it's asinine to say that it's none of his business how child support is spent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rag-tag clothes or malnourished is pretty damn hard to prove in court, unless you hire the services of a Guardian (which by the sounds of it might be a good investment for your friend). What HE thinks is rag-tag, may be totally different than what his WIFE thinks is rag-tag. What HE thinks is malnourished, SHE might think is perfectly fine (my ex thought Macaroni and Cheese every night was a great source of nutrition -- hey, it had grains and cheese and if you threw weiners in you had some "protein"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) No court in North America will EVER have a parent prove how child support is spent. Ask ANY parent who is PAYING child support and you'll have a parent wanting to know EXACTLY how that money is spent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember, just as not all Dads are deadbeats, not all mothers are the best choice for the child. And, just so you don't think I'm slamming her, because I'm really not.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely agree with you! But...unless this mother is some dope smoking, alcoholic, child beating freak, how she spends the money, really isn't any of his business. They are separate and apart. What I don't understand though is he has custody of these kids -- he's building a house when his life is falling apart, and he's paying HER? I don't get it. Was it court ordered that he support her? What's up with that? This friend supposidly keeps *bailing her out*. Has he ever thought to say "no"?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He KNOWS two cannot live like one; she doesn't.. and he needs help trying to help her see that before they BOTH financially drown. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guess what? Divorce is a financial money pit. The SECOND you enter into a lawyers office, say goodbye to any hope that you end this amicably. Start a custody battle and say goodbye to thousands of dollars. Right now my legal bill is $35K. As for the ex -- who KNOWS what his is. My bill is a result of responding to every idiotic motion that he has brought forth. As a "defendant" I had no choice but to respond to the motions (that by the way were continually thrown out of court).

1. Get your friend into some debt counselling to work out a manageable financial plan that includes clothing and the extra's for the kids. They will also have the child support guidelines for the state.

2. Have your friend visit and read divorceinfo.com and read all there is about the legislation in Texas.

3. Have your friend post on the board here and also in divorceinfo.com (Helping Each Other) to get some sound advice on the issues he's dealing with. Most likely he will find a person also from the same state that will be able to give him some strategies on dealing with his ex.

Cheers!

Ok, now I see where people are getting confused. They still currently live under the same roof, though in seperate bedrooms, while they try to get everything ready to split up. Unfortunately, the only one who seems to be doing anything other than talking about splitting up (and having sleepovers with "the girls") is my friend. He's purchasing a house because he was able to get a great deal from a buddy, so his mortgage note will be less than their current rent.

But, even if he didn't get that house, he'd still have to move because they HAVE to be out of where they're currently renting by the end of May. And, he's panicking because every time he seems to get on track to move, she'll do something like spend all the money for rent on her 1100 dollar phone bill or eating out every night, or whatever. He has yet to figure out where all the money is going.

He seperated his finances from her finances (bank-wise) so that he could at least have control of where his income is going, but that only seemed to make the problem SLIGHTLY better... now she just spends all of her money and doesn't pay (or writes bad checks) for her half of the finances. So, he ends up paying for all of it, which leaves him practically nil to prepare to move ahead with what SHE says she wants.

My take, personally? She's got a built-in childcare service (my buddy), someone to foot her bill, and better yet ~ because she says she wants a divorce, she feels like he's someone she is completely unaccountable to. End result: they're in quite the pickle and he doesn't see how to get out of it.

I will send him to the boards that you mentioned. I'll think about directing him here, I just wanted to keep this private ~ didn't really want to get into my issues with him, given the situation. But, this situation is perpelexing, at best.. and sad at any angle you look at it, for all of them.

Good lord, your attorney's fees! I ended up spending a grand total of 568 usd on my divorce... but, that's because my stbx and I really didn't have any issues of contention.. other than being married in general.

Yikes...sounds like a pickle alright. But....there are things that he can do, if he's open to suggestions and advice and willing to follow through. It's going to be hard for him to say NO. He's separated the finances. He can provide food for the family (one more mouth - hers, is not going to make a difference)

As for the telephone bill -- it's HER phone. If it's a family phone that he is also using, he can put call block for long distance calls. Unfortunately, since they are still together, she can say that it's *theirs* and part of the *matrimonial* debt. To prove otherwise would costs a lot of money. Anything that is in the marriage (i.e. visa bills, any credit cards) -- will be split between the two of them. That one website (divorceinfo.com) gives some great ideas on protecting him financially and next steps. It's a LOT of reading -- but if he's committed to making some positive changes, it's worth the time. (I could have saved myself thousands had I found the site before the divorce, even though it is American in content, the advice is the same)

As for him coming here -- you may want to delete this thread.