this is probably a repeat topic, but I need advice on my specific situation. Here's the story:

My wife, and I have been separated since Feb. 20th... I'm not sure what's happening at this point, and I'm very confused and scared about the future, especially as of two weeks ago, when she told me she was two months pregnant... she found out about a week and a half before.

I met her last Feb., shortly after I moved back to Las Vegas. We were together for six months before we got married, and we have a nine-month-old daughter. She's not mine, -I met her when she was 4 months pregnant (her boyfriend before me was a terrible, abusive loser)- but I love and accept that little girl as though she were my own blood child.
My wife and I fell deeply, and sincerely in love. But, as with all relationships, it has been a rough road. But, nothing too out of the ordinary. Nothing that cannot be fixed.
I have my problems, and she has hers. I have sought help, and made concerted efforts to fix mine. She has not.
She deals with alcoholism, serious depression (two suicide attempts in her high school years, and continuing thoughts to this day), and intimacy issues. These have been ongoing problems of hers for many years. She's also not very mature at all. She tends to allow herself to be manipulated, and gets into situations she can't see a way out of. However, she has many redeeming qualities about her that make her worth this entire effort, if only I could get her into some kind of therapy.
I have a little bit of a hot temper, although I am not a violent man. I can be a little dense at times, but I'm not stupid. I'm also very intense in what I feel. So, sometimes, I take things way too personally, and get more upset than I need to. On the same note, I am compassionate, and willing to change within reason.
We separated on Feb. 20th (a year, to the day from when we first met...), and have since, signed an agreement for three months of separation, followed by moving back in together in July.
I believe the rest can be best described by three emails we sent back-and-forth(2 from me, one from her). Sorry for the language, and the angry undertone... but, I think it will be understood after you read through it. I have many reasons for not wanting to give up on her.
Please understand my harsh words in these letters... I am not forceful, or possesive... I'm attepmting at an intervention of sorts. It hurts me greatly to have to speak to her like this... but I have no other choice.

Me: "there are so many things I want to say right now... but, I can't. There are things I want to let out that I'm not allowed to speak of. Why am I holding them back? Why do I continue to walk on egg shells for someone who gives me nothing but constant emotional abuse? Why am I even still concerned with the whole thing? Why am I such a f***ing pushover?
Because I love you. And, that love that I have for you is stronger than my own self-esteem, or self-preservation. I care about myself, and I want to be happy. But, I care about you even more, and want so much more to help you be happy. I want us to be together so badly... because I know we will be truely happy, together and individually, someday.

Yeah... I have my problems, and I made my mistakes... but they were not bad enough to deserve all of this. I wish I knew what to do, or say, or feel. But, I don't. I'm lost, I'm confused, and I feel like I have nobody to turn to.
Worst of all... I have 85 days left of this... and, I don't feel like I'm going to make it. Maybe I'll get used to it in a couple weeks... maybe I'll stop being angry.
So... I don't want to hold it all in anymore. I'm going to let it all out right here, and now.

I wish you would just let me get it all out in person without freaking out, and thinking something bad is going to happen. I wish you would learn to inform me of major problems before things all go to s***. I wish you would learn to forgive the way I forgive.
But, no... instead, you make me seem like a horrible, abusive [censored] with no redeeming qualities. Yes, I did wrong... and I'm sorry for it. I'm so goddamn sorry. But, it wasn't as bad as what you're putting me through. I suffer so much, and die a little every day. and, it seems like you don't give a s***.
And, no... I'm not trying to say it's all your fault, so don't start thinking that. I accept responsibility for my part in all this, and I've come to you and apologized for it so many times. You've never owned up, fessed up, or tried to make up for what you did wrong... worse... you don't think what you did was wrong at all.
You never spoke up when I was f***ing up. You always told me everything was good. How am I supposed to know if anything is wrong, when you always told me how good it was? I never wanted to talk anything to death, or fight for more than a few minutes about anything. You never opened up to me. Maybe it's because you're still hung up on (old ex-boyfriend's name). Yeah... well, I dealt with that, and never brought it up until now. I can still deal with it in the future until you finally let it go.
I don't think you really ever understood how badly you were hurting me. I thought women were supposed to be able to see hidden meanings behind things. I tried outright telling you what my problems were... that always ended in disaster.
I have trouble sleeping. I can't concentrate. I feel like a walking corpse. This is a living hell. A nightmare I can't wake up from.
Every day, I have to deal with the fact that I live here, and you live there. I'm all alone. Do I really deserve this?
Have I suffered enough?
Sometimes... like tonight... I feel like I hate you. But, do you see me giving up? Absolutely not. Nor will I ever.
Even though you kept from me the fact that you were pregnant with my child... even though you kept your involvement (read: ADULTERY) with Mr. Wedemeyer from me... even though you continue to do what you're doing with him, yet won't even look at me, and you repel away from my touch. Do I deserve those things?
Every time I try to get close to you, you act like I'm trying to rape you. Do I deserve that?
You refuse to speak to me. Do I deserve that?
You give me no emotional support, yet you ask me for money. Do I deserve that?
You're not even allowing me to see our daughter. Do I deserve that?
You mock me to other people. Do I deserve that?
You lie to me all the damn time. Do I deserve that?

Think about all those questions. Then, think about what you deserve for all this. Then, think about the fact that I'm not giving you what you deserve... instead, I'm forgiving you, and showing mercy, and grace. I'm returning your cruelty with love. In the hopes that you will see, and make the changes you need to make. Because, you need help, badly. Just as much, if not moreso than I do. You will never find someone who will do this for you ever again. I am one-in-a-billion.

How much more am I going to have to go through? How much more do I have to suffer before you feel like we're even? How much more do you intend to hurt me?

Do you want to know why I would get pissed off, and yell and hit things? Or why I acted like I was trying to control you? Simple answer. Because you never opened up to me. You never told me how you were feeling until it was too late to just talk it over. Worse than that... when Mr. Wedemeyer started making his advances on you right after moving into that house... you allowed it. You seemed like you were even encouraging it. And, you wonder why I always insisted against you sleeping on the couch. And, you wonder why I was acting jealous. And, you wondered why I wanted to move out. Made even worse by you getting involved with him after you kicked me out.
This isn't brain surgery. Of f***ing course I'm gonna get all weird. Why don't you use that brain, and think for once. I know you're smarter than this... but, you never show it.

Ugh... I'm done for now. Don't avoid this one for too long, and don't freak out over this... I know it's hard-hitting... but this is something you're going to need to put some serious thought into. Digest it, think about it, and do the right thing about it.
I love you... that's why all this pain is worth it to me. All I want is just a peaceful, quiet way to get through these three months. I want to be able to get this all out, so I won't be angry about it when July rolls around. I never want this to affect us again. I know you hate having your wrong-doings pointed out... but this is something I needed to say. And, now, I've said it. Feel free to chew me out in a similar fashion. I want, and welcome it.
I will never quit on you. I will never give up on our marriage. I'm going to do what I said I was going to do, and nothing less. You'll see.... you'll see in July... and you'll continue to see in the months following. Five years from now... we will hardly remember how much this time hurt... we will only remember that we don't want to do this to eachother ever again. Five years from now, I know we will be even more in love than we ever were."

Her: "well, i'm not asking for money anymore, so don't worry about that.
You act like threre was nothing wrong before, long before all of this, like I simply just pretended everything was fine, and that's bull****. We fought constantly, before we got married too, if you can recall. And I did point out problems that I had with s***, not constantly, but why do you think we were fighting all the time?
You were always on my case for only seeing the bad things happening. I was just trying to point them out so they could change maybe. But you always got mad so easily with that quick temper of yours. You always took everything personally. Not just what I said, what everyone said. Just f***ing around s***.
And as for when you try to get close to me, I don't care who it is or what right they think they have, if a person doesn't want to be touched, then they shouldn't be touched. No matter who it is. I have a real problem with that.
And as for me refusing to speak to you, I just don't like hearing repeats all the time. And we're supposed to be on a separation anyway. That time you came over, that was breaking the contract too. I wasn't informed of anything in a phone call or email for a visit thing, there was nothing like that in there.
You haven't changed. You still work around things so they suit you. And for seeing Sophie, you can see her, so long as we don't have to see each other.
And you say how much you don't deserve all this, maybe, maybe not. Did I deserve it when this kinda s*** happened to me? No. People, whether they deserve it or not, have this s*** happen to them every day. It's not really a matter of whether one deserves it or not.
It's not like I've been sitting here just trying to shell out punishment to you. I don't think that's hardly ever the case.
I feel differently about us, and I'm sorry for your pain, I really am. You act like I sit here plotting out how much worse I could hurt you or something.
You feel that way because you show up unexpectedly, and s*** like that and I don't like it. You always want to say the same stuff to me and I don't want to hear it anymore.
Then you get upset because I'm not giving you any emotional support. Quit coming after me then. I don't know what you really want from me though. It seems like, to you, giving you emotional support is letting you get physically close to me, and they're not the same thing.
You will probably disagree, but that's how it seems to me.
You can say and think what you want about me. I'm mean, I'm a b****, I'm... whatever. I don't care anymore. I have my own worries and stresses and I don't need to be working myself up anymore than I already do.
I am going to have as smooth a pregnancy as I possibly can.
And as for me not telling you right away...you act like I waited until right before the baby was born or something. Did you expect me to run into your arms announcing with joy to you that I'm gonna have a baby? I had no idea how you were going to react, except the thing i was dreading, which was you to push for us to get back together even harder.
Things could never be the same for us, well, I wouldn't want them to, because things weren't very happy for most of the time. And I don't think things could possibly get better than they were to begin with.
And that's my honest opinion. That's all I'm going to say about it all right now. Good day."

Me: "Ok.... scratch that.

Last thing I'm going to say on this subject:
I've tried, and tried, and tried. I gave this every ounce of my effort, and then some. When I thought I couldn't go on any further... I fought even harder.
I did nothing to deserve this from you. I did nothing bad enough to make you react in this way. I don't know why you've chosen to run from me, and go so far as to cheat on me. But, here are a few things I do know...
#1: We were happy together, until you ruined it all by giving up, and commiting adultery. True, I had my own issues that got in the way, and messed things up... but, I never gave up on us. True, we had arguments, and fights... but that's life. True, neither of us are innocent, or totally to blame in all this... but, only children stay pissed off over normal, everyday issues, and run away when things start looking bad. I always put everything behind me, but you wanted the bull**** to stick around. You kept it there. I brought up recurring issues for damn good reasons (ie: your alcoholism, your fear of intimacy, you allowing another man to flirt with you and make advances, your refusal to allow a counsellor to help us).
Look at your parents! We are so much like them in so many ways. They're still together. Your mother has not chosen the path you chose. True, that she thought about it many, many times... but, she learned something you are appearantly refusing to learn no matter how many times it is shown to you by several people. Love is action... not a feeling. Let feelings rule your life, and you will always fail. I know this because I talked with her last night for over three hours, and completely spilled everything to her about my life, our marriage, and what is going on right now. I was 100% open and honest with my mother-in-law. When was the last time you did that for her? You didn't even do this when my mother talked to you. You basically ignored her, and blew off every bit of good advice she gave you... furthermore, you didn't even have the decency to say anything back to her.
I have proven my love for you over, and over, and over. What is it going to take to finally knock some sense into you?
#2: I have my problems that I have dealt with. I have matured, and grown up, and tried to make everything right. You have only regressed further and further in your immaturity, and depression. You did this to us, when it all comes down to it. I've dealt with what I did to mess up, and I have changed. You refuse to recognize that for whatever reason. I don't know... and I don't think you do, either.
You need help even more urgently than I do. But, you refuse to accept that fact. You're so deep in depression, it's no wonder you can't see what's going on around you. I urge you to seek help now, before it's too late... and, that day is fast approaching.
#3: I know what I want in life. I've always know where I was headed. I have goals, and a plan, and motivation.
You do not. You have never known what you want in life, and appearantly, you never will. You have no direction, or focus, or motivation. When someone tries to help you along, you do the opposite. That is very immature.
#4: I am a good man. Nobody can take that from me, no matter what words they say, or what examples from my past they bring to bear, or what lies they tell. Anyone that says otherwise does not truely know who I am. I have integrity, and resolve. Something you appearantly lack. I have been faithful, and good to you.
You have been spiteful, mean spirited, and distant since day one. And, when I tried to point this out to you, it only got worse.
#5: I have been willing to forgive every single wrong you've committed against me. Every single one. What you have done to me is a million times worse than anything I ever did to you. You've hurt me so bad. I've hurt you in a few ways, yes... but nothing intentional. When I saw you in pain, I comforted you. When you saw me in pain, you always turned your back, and hurt me even worse.
#6: All I ever asked for from you was commitment. I asked you when we first started out to just stay with me no matter what. You promised to give me that... and you promised to change certain things in yourself that bothered me (depression, fear, refusal to trust, etc.)I promised you three things, and three things only: love, forgiveness, and faithfulness. I have delivered. I have made good on my promises even when it took every ounce of strength, and fortitude I had to do so.
If at any point, you ask me to give you these things again, I will. But, I will not hand over anything to you so long as you continue to willfully break every single one of your promises.
#7: We made two oaths to oneanother. The first was our marriage vows. "To love, and cherish. To honor, and obey. In sickness and in health. In good times, and bad. Until death do us part." I've held to that... you have not.
The second was our separation and reconciliation agreement. You try to claim that contract all the f***ing time... but, I don't think you ever intended to do what it said you were supposed to do. You started out by adamantly refusing to do two things. Go to marital counseling, and stop your outside relationship. I don't know how the wording was interpreted by you, but I meant NOW when I said "end any outside relationships." The reconciliation began the day you signed the contract. The three months of separation is my part of the reconciliation effort. Your refusal is a breach of contract as well... but, I have not said anything until now. Nor, will I make a point out of it. You wanna keep it up with that worthless a**hole, fine by me (so long as you're not still hanging around him when July rolls around)... but don't you dare draft up those divorce papers because I came over to pick up a stupid f***ing chair.
And, lately, you've refused to abide by yet another part of the contract. One email per week (which, it was expected for you to respond to), and having one phone conversation per week. I've sent two emails in two weeks, and you've responded to neither. Plus, you refused to talk to me on the phone as well.
So, I guess you do a lot of bending and twisting the rules to suit your own agenda, as well. Even moreso than I do. And, here I am, allowing you to walk all over me again in order to save my family. How many more times will I do that? I don't know. I don't even know if I want to do it this time. But, I will, because I must. It is my responsibility, and it is the right thing to do.
Don't argue with this. My contract, my terms. You agreed to them. We're not playing a game, darling... this is reality, this is life, this is a commitment. You need to start taking it seriously. Marriage is forever. Think about that. You couldn't even handle seven months before you decided to try and run away.
#8: I've gone through many times more pain and suffering at your hands over the last 14 months. So, don't even start with me on what you've gone through. I never kept my mouth shut about it. I always told you right away when you were doing something to hurt me. And, I did it in a way that was as gentle and constructive as possible most of the time.
You, on the other hand, bottled up your own pain, anger, and frustration for many months... until it was so over-whelming that the only thing you could do was attack me, try to hurt me even more, and eventually run away. You don't see it that way, but you are intentionally hurting me, and you are attacking me left and right.
Once again, I must say... you need help.
#9: I promise you that you will always regret the choice you are making right now. If you decide to forsake everything, and run away completely... you will regret this. Maybe it will take a year to realize, maybe two years... maybe only a few months... maybe as soon as you're done reading this... but, you will regret it all. It will burn you inside, and eat away at you.
On the day that you realize this, I can only hope that you remember what I said... "My door is always open. Walk through it any time you want to, even if I'm not home." From now on, there will be a spare key under the doormat of every house I'll ever live in again. There will always be a place for you no matter where I'm at in life. Nothing will keep me from you if you wish to return. Just lift up the doormat, read the letter, and use the key. This is not sappy symbolism... I'm telling the honest truth. I'm having a key made for this place tonight.
But, I can't chase you anymore. I won't. It's utterly destroying me, and it's only making you run further away.
#10: I love you. And, even though you can't see it, the fire of love still burns in you as well. Despite everything... I know you're not this person you've become. You're just in dire need of help, but you don't know where to get it from. Mr. Wedemeyer cannot help you. He can't even help himself. I hope you come to terms with this soon, before you end up in the worst place you can possibly imagine. You're doing this to yourself. Please... for the sake of everyone who loves you and cares about you... stop the insanity. We're all begging you.

Anyways...... I'll be seeing you. I don't know when, or where.... but someday. I love you. Please come back to me someday. But..... goodbye for now. This book is closed... let's write a sequel."


Sorry for how long-winded that was. Those letters probably make us both sound like stupid immature people... and, rightly so. That's exactly what we have both been so far.
However, I have changed greatly in many ways. I know she will come to a breaking point some day, and she will be the wonderful woman I saw when I first met her, and from time-to-time in our marriage. I know she's there, somewhere... and that makes this whole mess worth it.

<small>[ April 11, 2004, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Jarod_Wynde ]</small>

JW,
I hope the names you have used to "log in" and as your wife's and child's names are pseudonyms. It's not the best idea to use actual identities, locations, etc. in such a hugely-read public forum like MB. If they are the actual names, please change them, for the sake of their privacy.

Also, would it be possible for you to condense this post? You might get more responses if it was shorter... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ April 11, 2004, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

ugh..... see.... I told you I'm dense.... I didn't even think of that.

Anyways... edited up, nice and neat.

And, no... there's no condensing to be had. I don't want to cut corners, and omit anything. If I'm going to get advice, the advice-giver should be fully informed. I'd feel like I was decieving people if I chopped those letters up.

<small>[ April 11, 2004, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Jarod_Wynde ]</small>

Jarod, I'm not sure whether to cry or smile sympathetically, or laugh because I so see myself and my husband in those emails.

I scanned the emails you posted. You could condensed them, or just cut them in half and people will understand the jist.

Have you read the site here? If not do so, and them come back to this reply so that you understand where I'm coming from.

Okay, since you're here and your willing to change, I'm going to ignore your wife's email. If after a few months, she's writing the same kind of thing, then maybe we'll think about Her.

For now, you're here and you can only control your own behavior.

I'm sure you thought your emails where "brutally honest." And they were. They were "hard hitting" and "brutal." This is NOT what you need. Honesty yes. But not brutal.

The main point seemed to be that she was using you poorly and you were a saint on earth even though you had your faults. And while I don't blame you for feeling a little like that, expressing that is not the best way to win her back.

From reading your emails, I'd say the goal of them was to hurt her enough that she gave you the answers you wanted to hear. This is a natural instinct. In fact, everything you've done so far is natural.

However, now that you're here, we're going to help you make choices that go against your instincts but will help save your marriage.

No more disrespectful judgements.
No more selfish demands.
Okay?
And no more hot-headed angry outbursts. Period.

[Why do I continue to walk on egg shells for someone who gives me nothing but constant emotional abuse?]disrespectful judgement

[Do you want to know why I would get pissed off, and yell and hit things? Or why I acted like I was trying to control you? Simple answer. Because you never opened up to me. You never told me how you were feeling until it was too late to just talk it over.]
This "you made me do it" is very typical of an abuser. I know you never physically harmed her, but it's a big red flag. Get some anger management help. There are a bunch of people here who have benefited.

And then, you need to demonstrate to your wife that you can control this anger.

So I'd like to suggest the following email, rewritten in your own words:

Dear wife,

I love you dearly, and am very sorry for the tone of my last emails. I was hurting so badly I didn't care if I hurt you too, and I'm so sorry. I was wrong.

I will do my best to avoid hurting you in the future.

Yours,
Husband.

See, I'm allowed to be more direct 'cause I'm not worried if I make huge withdrawals from your love bank. I'm only worried that you're still making huge withdrawals from your wife's love bank. And that has to stop FIRST. Then, after you prove you're a safe haven, then she'll open up and allow you to meet her needs.

How old are you two anyway?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by greengables:
<strong> Jarod, I'm not sure whether to cry or smile sympathetically, or laugh because I so see myself and my husband in those emails.

I scanned the emails you posted. You could condensed them, or just cut them in half and people will understand the jist.

Have you read the site here? If not do so, and them come back to this reply so that you understand where I'm coming from.

Okay, since you're here and your willing to change, I'm going to ignore your wife's email. If after a few months, she's writing the same kind of thing, then maybe we'll think about Her.

For now, you're here and you can only control your own behavior.

I'm sure you thought your emails where "brutally honest." And they were. They were "hard hitting" and "brutal." This is NOT what you need. Honesty yes. But not brutal.

The main point seemed to be that she was using you poorly and you were a saint on earth even though you had your faults. And while I don't blame you for feeling a little like that, expressing that is not the best way to win her back.

From reading your emails, I'd say the goal of them was to hurt her enough that she gave you the answers you wanted to hear. This is a natural instinct. In fact, everything you've done so far is natural.

However, now that you're here, we're going to help you make choices that go against your instincts but will help save your marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really so much that she was always horrible to me, and I was perfect.... far from it. We both have our shortcomings... plain and simple.
She is a good person who is making some very bad choices right now. That's all. Like I said... she's dealing with depression, and is very lost and confused right now.
Any advice anyone has that will help save my marriage will be welcome, accepted, put to use, and whole-heartedly appriciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by greengables:
<strong> No more disrespectful judgements.
No more selfish demands.
Okay?
And no more hot-headed angry outbursts. Period.

[Why do I continue to walk on egg shells for someone who gives me nothing but constant emotional abuse?]disrespectful judgement

[Do you want to know why I would get pissed off, and yell and hit things? Or why I acted like I was trying to control you? Simple answer. Because you never opened up to me. You never told me how you were feeling until it was too late to just talk it over.]
This "you made me do it" is very typical of an abuser. I know you never physically harmed her, but it's a big red flag. Get some anger management help. There are a bunch of people here who have benefited.

And then, you need to demonstrate to your wife that you can control this anger.

So I'd like to suggest the following email, rewritten in your own words:

Dear wife,

I love you dearly, and am very sorry for the tone of my last emails. I was hurting so badly I didn't care if I hurt you too, and I'm so sorry. I was wrong.

I will do my best to avoid hurting you in the future.

Yours,
Husband.

See, I'm allowed to be more direct 'cause I'm not worried if I make huge withdrawals from your love bank. I'm only worried that you're still making huge withdrawals from your wife's love bank. And that has to stop FIRST. Then, after you prove you're a safe haven, then she'll open up and allow you to meet her needs.

How old are you two anyway? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm 24, and she's 21.

I want to argue with you on that second point, but I know that I can't. All I can say is that, for one, I never physically took out my anger on anything right in front of her. And, two, her temper is just as bad as mine... sometimes worse. I've never hit her, but she's punched me in the face more than once.
Yes... we both did our share of emotional abuse towards oneanother. That much is true. I won't come at you with any "I'm not abusive" bs... because the truth is that she and I are both mildly abusive. Sometimes, we tend to go as far as to thrive on it. Very unhealthy. We need help bad... but, I'm a ways off from getting her to go to marital counseling.
I'm seeking anger management right now. I hope she will follow suit someday.

The first point is where I must argue. That's no disrespectful judgement... as I stated before, we've both done our share of emotional abuse. That's truth. She's just dishing out some major excess right now that I don't ever intend to return.

The letter you suggest... I don't know how good an idea that is... but I may give it a shot. I'm just afraid that she'll think I've lost my nerve. I need to win her respect back, right? How am I supposed to do that if I don't show some backbone?
I don't think it's healthy to back down every time she gets upset. Maybe I'm wrong... I don't know. Always a possibility, with as young as I am.

I have to ask.

Is this child she is carrying really yours?

It sounds to me as though she married you for the wrong reasons.

You were sincere and she was not.

I'm glad you posted all of it.
I've seen it before.
I've written and said the same things over and over, to no avail.

What I have learned is to stop expecting your own standards to be the way things should be.
We have our own ideas of what we want out of relationships but these ideas are not the standard.

I'm sorry to say.
I think you are scared of losing your own idea of how you thought your life would be.
You don't want to let go of your own dream.
You may not share the same dream or idea of what marriage is.

Denile can be very powerful. It keeps us from seeing the truth as other's see it.

I'm sorry J.
My experience and take on your situation is this.
Even if you take her back or she comes back or whatever, you will always wonder and never trust her again.
It sets in when things calm down and seem to be back to normal.
Believe me, it's no way to live. It's not living.

If she won't get help now, while you are in this agreement, she never will, no matter how much you insist.
She could see a doc and it wouldn't matter. She has to want to and she doesn't want to.

I'm so sorry. I know how you feel.

Yes, it is like an old injury. Time does help some, but it still hurts once and a while.

Take this time to find yourself as a person again.
When we did what you are doing I didn't do this.
I should have. I should have taken my energy and put it soly on myself and my needs, finding myself as an individual again.
Try and fill your time with learning something new about yourself. I know it sounds messed up but maybe you are not seeing how you have and are giving up too much of yourself for her?
I hope this makes sense.

Aly

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Aly:
<strong> I have to ask.

Is this child she is carrying really yours?

It sounds to me as though she married you for the wrong reasons.

You were sincere and she was not.

I'm glad you posted all of it.
I've seen it before.
I've written and said the same things over and over, to no avail.

What I have learned is to stop expecting your own standards to be the way things should be.
We have our own ideas of what we want out of relationships but these ideas are not the standard.

I'm sorry to say.
I think you are scared of losing your own idea of how you thought your life would be.
You don't want to let go of your own dream.
You may not share the same dream or idea of what marriage is.

Denile can be very powerful. It keeps us from seeing the truth as other's see it.

I'm sorry J.
My experience and take on your situation is this.
Even if you take her back or she comes back or whatever, you will always wonder and never trust her again.
It sets in when things calm down and seem to be back to normal.
Believe me, it's no way to live. It's not living.

If she won't get help now, while you are in this agreement, she never will, no matter how much you insist.
She could see a doc and it wouldn't matter. She has to want to and she doesn't want to.

I'm so sorry. I know how you feel.

Yes, it is like an old injury. Time does help some, but it still hurts once and a while.

Take this time to find yourself as a person again.
When we did what you are doing I didn't do this.
I should have. I should have taken my energy and put it soly on myself and my needs, finding myself as an individual again.
Try and fill your time with learning something new about yourself. I know it sounds messed up but maybe you are not seeing how you have and are giving up too much of yourself for her?
I hope this makes sense.

Aly </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The child is certainly mine. That is without a doubt. I'm not gullible, and I've been cheated on before..... many, many times before. I know from the way she looks at me when she says she isn't sleeping with this guy, to believe her. I know how to spot a lie on that topic by now.

I know it will not be easy to regain my trust in her... but, it will happen. There are ways to recompense after any kind of infidelity... and, I'm willing and ready to take that path. Believe me on that. I know what I'm getting into, and I'm ready for it.

Whether she went with me for the wrong reasons, or not, in the first place... she still came to love me sincerely, somehow. I'm very in tune with those kinds of things. I know when to believe someone when they say "I love you".
If it wasn't obvious from her words... her passion for me revealed all I needed to know. I'll spare you all details, but my wife was not a very sexual woman before me... but, at times, she was that way with me.
The child she was carrying before I met her... that was the result of a stupid choice she made... alcohol, and lots of pressure from the guy (a former roommate, btw), were the major players in that. She is also still dealing with issues of a past rape, as well.

I know you probably think I'm being a gullible child... but, you need to know that, even in my young age, I'm world-weary enough to see certain things.
This marriage is worth saving. Trust me.

another thing I should probably bring up, Aly, is that this guy was a long-time 'friend' of mine... so, I know what he does to women. He's damn near 30 yeas old, and he specializes in manipulating younger girls in bad or vulnerable situations. I've seen it happen many times in the 7+ years I've known him.

I don't think you are a child at all.

I hope and pray I am wrong about all of this.

I remember being where you are.

Denile is very powerful. It keeps you from hearing and seeing the truth.

Aly

Jarod,
Wow, there is ALOT more to this than just the depression you posted on another forum. I did read your emails thoroughly. I have to agree alot with what Greengables is saying. You don't seem to agree at this point but I hope you will take some time to think about it after reading the info available at this site.

The one thing that stood out the most to me is your comparisons of yourself and her. I am not sticking up or taking a side here but I wanted to show you what I am seeing.

You hurt her but not as much as she is hurting you. (how can you judge another persons level of pain?)

You made mistakes but you have made up for them, she hasn't. (have you made up for them in the way she needed or how you thought you should?)

You want her to forgive like you do. (she isn't you, she has to deal with things her own way and in her own time)

You say you are sorry for what you have done but in the same sentance you say it wasn't as bad as what she is doing. (not really apologetic)

You talk about having your own issues and things that contributed to the stress in the marriage but you also say you never gave up. It sounds like you are making those things ok because you didn't give up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think about all those questions. Then, think about what you deserve for all this. Then, think about the fact that I'm not giving you what you deserve... instead, I'm forgiving you, and showing mercy, and grace. I'm returning your cruelty with love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This says I am so good and you are so bad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you want to know why I would get pissed off, and yell and hit things? Or why I acted like I was trying to control you? Simple answer. Because you never opened up to me. You never told me how you were feeling until it was too late to just talk it over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are blaming her for not being able to control yourself. It is not her fault that YOU lost control. If she has a problem opening up do you think she will when you start yelling and throwing things? Your angry outburst serve no purpose. You have to take responsibility for YOUR actions. She is not to blame.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did this to us, when it all comes down to it. I've dealt with what I did to mess up, and I have changed </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please read that again and really hear your words. You changed, she hasn't so whatever you did to contribute to the marriage going downhill is wiped away and she is completely to blame now? It doesn't work that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need help even more urgently than I do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get help for yourself. If you need help and you know it than you are just as guilty for not getting help as she is. Doesn't matter how much you need it or who needs it more. You are responsible for YOU, period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've hurt me so bad. I've hurt you in a few ways, yes... but nothing intentional.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I see you deciding the level of her hurt and also minimizing what you have done to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've gone through many times more pain and suffering at your hands over the last 14 months. So, don't even start with me on what you've gone through. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are telling her that your hurt is more important than hers and you don't want to here what she has to say. You are invalidating her feelings. It doesn't matter what you did cause her's is worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and you promised to change certain things in yourself that bothered me (depression, fear, refusal to trust, etc.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't just change these things. This shows me how little you understand your wife. You cannot will depression away. It is an illness which can be treated with talk therapy and medication if necessary. Fear is something that may have been deep rooted in her from childhood. I have fears because of my childhood and IT WILL NEVER GO AWAY. I have learned ways to cope but it never goes away. If she has had her trust broken, especially as a child, it is very hard for some people to fully trust. The only way they can learn to trust is to be in a safe environment. Does she have that with you?

You said she has been suffering from depression. I think you mentioned rape or some other abuse along with alcoholism and that she was in an abusive relationship prior to you. If you want to understand her, if you want to be able to give her a safe place with you to open up then you need to educate yourself so that you can be there for her. Go to Alanon, that's a part of AA (alcoholics anonomus) that helps the people who are touched by the lives of an alcoholic (look int he front of your phone book). Get information about women who have/are in abusive relationships.

You don't know what you are dealing with but as a woman who has been sexually abused (father), verbally abused (current husband), a child of an alcoholic parent (father) a wife of an alcoholic husband (1st H.) and a sufferer of depression, I will tell you that how you are talking to her is all wrong and all you are doing is driving her away. She doesn't have a safe place with you. The mind of an alcoholic, a depressed person or someone who has been abused doesn't work like a normal persons. It can change, it can get better. She doesn't know that. She only knows how to think and be who she is. She only knows how to deal with issues in a distorted way. Get off her back and get working on yourself. Stop asking her to be you or like you or as good as you. She doesn't know how. You reminding her how short she is falling will only keep her in a downward spiral.

YES, she needs help. She can't see that right now. SHE CAN'T and you can't make her. BUT you can help yourself by getting the counseling you need and by educating yourself on how to deal with abuse victims and people suffering from addictions.

If you want to save your marriage then YOU need to go get the help that you said you needed. YOU need to find out everything you can about ways to help your wife in dealing with her addiction and abuse. Then you can be a safe place for her to open up. You can't fix her and you can't force her but you can be a positive force in her getting help.

Now, if I have made you angry then take some time to think and re-read my post. I am seeing red flags popping up all over your post. My intention is to help you and that is why you are here. I can't help your wife, though I wish I could because she is obviously in alot of pain.

Symphony

no.... I'm not angry over what you're saying, because you're absolutely right. I read that post three times before replying just to make sure I understood it.
I'm letting my own pain get the better of me... and, I know that's wrong. Thank you for making me remember that.
I've been seeking the help I need. I've already seen a counsellor through a church I've been attending on-and-off for the last 7 years.
What can be said, or not said in order to reverse what is happening right now? I will accept any help or advice.

Jarod,
I am glad you are keeping an open mind and accepting help. That is so important.

You can't reverse the past but you can educate yourself and make changes to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Your wife is dealing with alot of issues and you have a long road ahead of you, you know that and you are willing to walk that road towards a better life for you and your wife. That says alot about you. I admire your courage and faith.

Educate educate educate!! Knowledge is power. Learning about your wife's illness (depression) and struggles with alochol and abuse is key to finding out what you can and should do to help her.

Call Alanon and find out when they are having meetings. It is a great resource for understanding the addiction. It is also a source of support for you. It will help you find ways of dealing with the addiction and your wife. It will help you find ways to encourage her to get help and it will also give you information so that you don't do the wrong things. Alanon

I recommend a site for depression info. Phychcentral

There are alot of resources about depression, mental illness and abuse. Here's a little info:

Helping a Relative or Friend Who is Depressed
"The most important thing anyone can do for the depressed person is to help him or her get an appropriate diagnosis and treatment. This may involve encouraging the individual to stay with treatment until symptoms begin to abate (several weeks), or to seek different treatment if no improvement occurs. On occasion, it may require making an appointment and accompanying the depressed person to the doctor. It may also mean monitoring whether the depressed person is taking medication. The depressed person should be encouraged to obey the doctor's orders about the use of alcoholic products while on medication.

The second most important thing is to offer emotional support. This involves understanding, patience, affection, and encouragement. Engage the depressed person in conversation and listen carefully. Do not disparage feelings expressed, but point out realities and offer hope. Do not ignore remarks about suicide. Report them to the depressed person's therapist. Invite the depressed person for walks, outings, to the movies, and other activities. Be gently insistent if your invitation is refused. Encourage participation in some activities that once gave pleasure, such as hobbies, sports, religious or cultural activities, but do not push the depressed person to undertake too much too soon. The depressed person needs diversion and company, but too many demands can increase feelings of failure.

Do not accuse the depressed person of faking illness or of laziness, or expect him or her "to snap out of it." Eventually, with treatment, most depressed people do get better. Keep that in mind, and keep reassuring the depressed person that, with time and help, he or she will feel better."

I also recommend that you LISTEN to your wife. Really listen and hear what she is saying. She isn't going to open up to you right now because it hasn't been safe for her to do so. Don't put expectations and ultimatums on her. Right now you coudl tell her what you are seeing in yourself and things that you want to change. Tell her that you want to learn about what she is dealing with. Apologize for asking her to be something she can't be and let her know that you want to be there for her.

Stop pressuring her and give her some space while you research and learn to be able to provide for her what she needs. If you really love her and want to help her than you have to find out what you can do and especially what you shouldn't do.

Dealing with an abused person/alcoholic is not easy. She has learned to close herself off to protect herself. Don't expect a miracle. I have no doubt that once you start learning more about her you will find out how to help her.

In the end it's her choice to get that help.

Focus on the positive things about your wife and let her know how you feel. Don't blame, nag or put her down. Ask her how she feels and what she wants and then listen. Don't say anything unless you are offering love and support.

Let me know your progress and if you need some more info or have questions. There is a ton of info out there.

Symphony

<small>[ April 11, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Symphony of Life ]</small>

This better?
Here's the letter I'm going to send her tonight. Lemme know if I'm starting to get it yet...

"My Dearest,
First off.... this email is being composed in a calm, rational mood. I've been thinking, and asking for advice from some people. I've been clued in to a few things that I did not realize when I wrote out those emails.
I'm letting my pain, and feelings of betrayal and rejection get the better of me. I don't know what to say for that. "I'm sorry" is probably the last thing you want to hear from me... but I'm saying it anyways... whether you believe me or not.
I love you deeply, and I'm sorry for the tone of my recent interactions with you. I was hurting, and I guess I didn't care if I hurt you, too. I'm so sorry. I was wrong. I will do my best to avoid hurting you from now on.
Also, whether you believe me, or not... I did not mean for your mother to find out about the new baby, or your involvement with Mr. Wedemeyer. If you want the truth about it... ask her how it happened, and what my conversation with her was like. I'm very, deeply sorry that it upset you, but everyone with sense in their head agrees that the whole thing is wrong. I know that you know this, too. Please believe me that I did not do this to you on purpose. I'm begging you to please believe me.
I am not out for revenge on you. I've got a strong feeling, from the way you've been acting, and the things you've said to me, that you think I am. I just want to see you get the help you need. It's hard for me to trust, or believe you, that much is true. But, still... I'm very concerned for your well-being. I know you're still borderline suicidal, and that you're dealing with some pretty major depression issues... I was just unsure of how to help you get what you need, and feeling very desperate to get through to you, somehow. I'm truely sorry you took it the wrong way, and I'm truely sorry I put it to you the wrong way.
One of your complaints was that I always took things too personally. If what I think about how you're taking all of this is true, then, you're doing that right now. Please understand. I know I haven't always made it easy for you to understand me... but, I'm trying to now.
I feel very hurt, very betrayed, and very hated. I have for quite some time now. All that talk about not letting feelings dominate your life? I guess I haven't been taking my own advice.
I know you don't see a way out... but, there is a way. We can help you. The people who love and care about you the most; our two best friends, me, your parents, my parents... all of us... we all love and care about you so deeply, and it hurts us all so badly to see what is happening to this marriage. All we want to do is help you. Please let us.
Is anyone else trying to tell you this? Is anyone else trying to help you? Please think about that. My efforts are not an attack on you. Ask of the people I mentioned. If you don't believe me, ask them. They will tell you the truth.
I love you. I miss you. I want the best for you. Your situation is not for the best. You're driving yourself to ruin. Please don't make me sit idly by and watch you continue to destroy yourself.
Please take some time to cool off over all that's happened in the last few days. Realize that I, your mother, and your father love you, and are concerned for you. Nobody is trying to impose on you, or force you into anything. We just want the best. When you talk to your mother, she will not yell at you. She wants to understand what's going on with you because she cares, and she loves you. The same goes for me. Please, if you're thinking twice about going home, don't. The time will be very good for you.
In closing... I must remind you of a few things. Can you think back to our first few months together? Do you remember our frequent trips to Roma, hoping to see each other? Do you remember the first night we spent together? Do you remember the first day in that apartment? Think on those things for now... try to remember some other fond memories. I'm telling you that things between us can be even better than that someday. I promise you this. I'll wait for you to start believing that. I know you will, soon.

All my love, and compassion is yours...
Your remorseful and loving husband,
-Jarod"

Hey Jarod,
I'm in Europe so there is a 6-9 hour time difference for me so I didn't get your last post till now.

I'll go through your mail to her and point some stuff out but first I want to make a suggestion to you. For right now, stop talking to her about the issues and just be positive and tell her what you are wanting and that you are working on yourself. Just work on yourself right now and consentrate on how you communicate with her. Once you learn better communications skills then you will be able to discuss issues without pushing her away and it will be more effective.

Your tone in your email is much better but there are still a few things that should be left out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm truely sorry you took it the wrong way, and I'm truely sorry I put it to you the wrong way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She took it the "wrong way" because you put it the wrong way. Leave out the first sentance and just apologize for your part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm very, deeply sorry that it upset you, but everyone with sense in their head agrees that the whole thing is wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is telling her that she is stupid. It also says that EVERYONE else has figured it out so there must be something wrong with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One of your complaints was that I always took things too personally. If what I think about how you're taking all of this is true, then, you're doing that right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop minimizing what you are doing by comparing her to you. Accept that you may take things too personally and allow her to express herself without having it thrown back in her face.

I am concerned about you repeating how everyone wants what is best for her. I know it comes from an expression of love and concern and that is great. By saying that you want what's best for her, she may be hearing that everyone has decided for her and she has no control or feelings of her own. Be careful with that but continue to express how much she is cared about and that you will support her.

There was some really good positive things in your email. Reminding her that she is loved and cared about is important.

It might not be a bad idea to post your mails for awhile and get some input before you give them to her. One sentance can change the whole tone and void out everything good you are trying to say. If she is very depressed than you have to be especially careful. She will pick up on anything that is negative or that makes her feel bad or pressured.

You probably won't get alot of replies to this post because of the length of the original. I do understand wanting to keep it and I think it was a good thing because I was able to pick it apart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> to show you some things.

I would recommend re-posting and asking for advice on communication with your wife. I think you will get alot more replies.

Are you reading the info at the site? There's some great things to be learned here.

Also want to recommend a post:
Post from Takola

Read this too:
Love busters

Hope these things help.
Symphony

again, I thank you for the advice. Post up letters before I send them to her? I think that's a good idea.
If someone shows me the way, and pounds things into my head enough times, I'll learn... and the lesson sticks.

I'll keep checking this thread for updated info from you Jarod.
Symphony

I actually read your first post, and all following. I have to say too that you sound almost EXACTLY like my soon to be ex-husband. He is very verbally abusive, and I don't think he realizes it.

I think what you are doing and are wanting to do is so great. I wish my husband could meet you and you could pound it into his head. lol I'd give about anything for him to care enough to go through the lengths of recovery as you are. Instead, he just accuses, and blames, and continues to try to manipulate. It's gotten so bad that I had to get a restraining order on him.

My two cents: Keep up the good work. The other poster is absolutely right. It will make HUGE leaps & bounds if you address her as suggested. I am also one in severe depression, and if my husband were to try to interact with me the way you are starting to... I'd fall in love with him all over again. It would be the first step to building trust for him that, I'm sorry to say, is non-existent right now. (Your last email actually made me cry. Very nice.) Please keep posting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by scubed:
<strong> I actually read your first post, and all following. I have to say too that you sound almost EXACTLY like my soon to be ex-husband. He is very verbally abusive, and I don't think he realizes it.

I think what you are doing and are wanting to do is so great. I wish my husband could meet you and you could pound it into his head. lol I'd give about anything for him to care enough to go through the lengths of recovery as you are. Instead, he just accuses, and blames, and continues to try to manipulate. It's gotten so bad that I had to get a restraining order on him.

My two cents: Keep up the good work. The other poster is absolutely right. It will make HUGE leaps & bounds if you address her as suggested. I am also one in severe depression, and if my husband were to try to interact with me the way you are starting to... I'd fall in love with him all over again. It would be the first step to building trust for him that, I'm sorry to say, is non-existent right now. (Your last email actually made me cry. Very nice.) Please keep posting. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that's good to know.....
I'm glad to hear there's something I'm doing right for a change. Now... I need to know how to keep this up... maybe this separation will be enough motivation for me to remember my lessons....