Maw, I'm really tired and need to go, but I want to try to reply real briefly.

I am not "condemning" anyone for sharing their opinion. I am disagreeing though with some of the opinions. To disagree is not to condemn and to share an opposing opinion is not to condemn. And you are free to disagree with mine, and don't need to feel "sorry" that I don't agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know that the net is not the greatest form of communication. It just isn't and I truly question the usefullness of it. I have read how nowadays we have so many forms of communication-- net, cell phones, pagers, etc... but that people don't know how to communicate IN PERSON anymore. Family's lives are filled with sources of communication-- t.v., computers, talking cars for goodness sake!-- but yet, family's aren't talking, aren't spending time together, and people feel "safer" with anonymous communicatin that with communication with the people in their lives. Communicating via net lacks many of the dynamics of in-person communication. I believe that in-perscon communication would help Faith so much more than this type... even for the simple fact, that someone could hug her but no one here can! Anyways, that's just my opinion and I suppose is a whole other subject!

I understand how you desire to come here to hear it's okay, etc. and I too have those days where I need to pour my heart out to someone and simply be loved because I am hurting. But there is a very mixed "audience" at this website, alot of "traffic," alot of different views, etc. and it's just not a place that is private in any way, so anyone who comes with a certain expectation does so at the risk of it not being met. That's mainly what I'm getting at. It seems that Faith and/or others, feel that this should be a sort of safe haven for her, but it's just not. It's the internet. No door. Her family visits and she knows that but yet continues to talk about them in great detail. Hopefully, when you come here, you do receive the comfort that you are not alone, and it does help to know that you are not alone in your pain but that others have also been there and have survived.

I suppose it might be "getting out of hand" but again, that is a risk of posting such things on the internet, or anywhere where there is a large, diverse audience. I know though that I'm starting to spend WAY too much time with it and need to become once again, uninvolved. But it has been my choice to post and I have done so freely and whether or not it's made any difference... well, if it doesn't, it doesn't. That's okay.

But I do realize that there's a reason why counselors get paid to listen to people! It takes a heck of alot of time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And I'm not a professional counselor and don't have the time to devote to helping everyone here. (I wish). But I would imagine that even for a counselor, that counseling via the net has got to be a very, very challenging and difficult thing... far more difficult than in-person counseling. It's simply just not as effective, and as I think we all can see, Faith's family problems seem to be more complicated/serious/involved, etc. than any of us is able to really deal with effectively.

<small>[ April 13, 2004, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but that people don't know how to communicate IN PERSON anymore </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't have said it better myself! Forums are great! With that said, there is a time and a place for them -- there comes a point where you have to take your support one step further -- into the REAL world. My point is that here we have 3 members of this family -- all THREE are reaching out to be heard -- why not take all THREE and encourage them to go to counselling where some real healing and real changes can take effect for the BETTERMENT of this family?

LoveMyEx -- thank you for putting in words what I was trying to say. I think your whole post speaks of incredible wisdom and should be one that all of us need to re-read again.

The *net* is a great place to be, but it's not the *only* place to be for support. Combined with real life support and counselling, it's a great tool to help many get back on their feet.

I for one am thankful for your opinions (even if I don't agree with them at times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )! Again...thanks for posting!

Lovemyex - it is hard to forgive your ex when he hounds you and yells at you in public. Just like my seeing a lawyer for past due medical bills. X told me to wait till he is ready to pay the bills. Judge ordered the bills to be paid.

Yes, things would go smoothly, if I followed the ex to every inch of his wants. But what about my wants. I want a clear credit record. Ex doesn't care, has no intentions of cleaning my credit for the judge ordered him to pay. When he was posting earlier as another person than he is now. He wanted an amicable divorce. That is a divorce by his rules and his ways. He never gave consideration to me. Just like he posted when he was this person, he would take care of me, financially, emotionally, etc. Financially is weak, and emotionally, is a blow below the belt. He still yells at me and calls me names, and justifies it.

I do ask God to help me, it is hard when he throws hard balls at me most of the time. Literally speaking. His life isn't that easy either. But he has a good job, his own business, and makes darn good money. If it wasn't for my organizational skills he wouldn't have a business today.

Counseling is needed for all of us, but first for ex and I. This was actually said by 2 counselors. So I will search for a professional counselor, for ex and I. And then the kids can be incorporated if the counselor feels necessary. I am under my own counseling now. And will continue on, probably for a good year or more if necessary.

Elan - thankyou for bringing up multiple families on the boards. This issue needed to be addressed. For there are others and the forum has beneficial advice for many of us. In my situation, it is good that my D got on the board. I do hope that she found helpful information. I feel that she is troubled, and depressed, just like most of our family. A divorce is ugly, and causes much anger, and resentment.

Elan,

This is a good topic--thanks for starting this thread. There was a time when I suggested to my adult daughter that in addition to the individual counseling she is in, she might also find assistance for herself here. The first thing she brought up was potential problems of multiple family members posting together. We talked about boundaries that would be needed by each of us--and what we decided is that we would not read each others' threads, but if there was something we wanted the other to read we would either print out that one thing and give it to the other or we would start a new thread with that item if we wanted or needed the input of others.

Although my adult daughter has so far chosen not to read or participate here, she did offer that I could print out anything I thought might be helpful and she would read it and then decide if it was pertinent to her or us at that time. Ironically, the only thing I have printed out so far was diff view's original 3-part post. I told her that there were some things in it that I believed could have been written by my kids, and after reading it she agreed. I offered to listen to the things she might want me to focus on, and she decided that at that time it was better for her to process diff view's 3-part post in a different way and with someone other than me. I respect her decision, and she hasn't brought it up again so we haven't talked about it since. From a few things I have seen since then, I think diff view's 3-part post has been helpful to her--and for that I am grateful to diff view.

I am also grateful to snl and thinker. When I first started reading at MB, there were references to the snl/thinker threads. After numberous references, curiosity set in and I read many of their old threads. Those threads taught me a lot about quite a few things, as did their current threads at that time. I still hope that they both, and their children, find healing no matter how long it takes and no matter how long and hard that road is. It was always apparent to me that each family member was in a lot of their own pain--and probably unable to help much with each other's pain because dealing with their own pain was as much as they could do at the time. I believe that they all probably wanted to be able to do more for each other, but couldn't give what they didn't have themselves. I still hope and pray that they all find healing, whether that be separately or together.

I am also grateful to Faith4me's posts for many reasons. One of those reasons is I think it is entirely possible that Faith4me could one day be considered one of the bigger personal success stories on MB. I think her journey and struggle on her way to becoming a success story in her own right has many lessons for others in similar circumstances, and could give keys to others that might help them find healing and success sooner and with less pain than Faith4me finds it--like KaylaAndy offered "shortcuts" to diff view that KaylaAndy herself had to take the long way to discover.

Thanks for starting this thread, Elan. I haven't had time to read the entire thread and the different views, but I will definitely make time to do so.

Take care Elan, take care everyone

I have been very busy with school and havent been able to read here much. I miss everyone


F4Me...I do not understand...Why are you looking for a counselor for "EX and I" there is no you and him..you are divorced and you have to heal yourself. Stop worrying about him. Worry about getting the best help for yourself. You have to stop thinking of you two as a couple. NOW

Here's the deal...Faith is posting here. Her xh is posting here. She opened the can of worms to D and now she posts here.

I agree it's a public forum, but it is a dangerous and very precarious place when the child, no matter what age, is engtangled in the parent's mess and posting on a forum reserved for "supposed" divorced or divorcing adults. That's just wrong.

But I believe that faith willingly opened these worms. She and her x made the forums here a place to fight. I would not feel safe posting here if my x lurked at all. Not at all.

More frustrating is that no real healing is taking place. I have asked f4m if she's seeing a PROFESSIONAL counselor or a doc who can get her the proper meds she needs for clear thinking. No response, just vagueness. And the whole thing I learned after reading how she calls her x all the time and how they've had until recently alot of daily contact is baffling to me...I now go weeks on end without dealing with my x.

There isn't any healing happening here. Alot of stuff is spouted out and it is MEANT to be read by the xh and family of f4m. Yes, it's MEANT to be read and I believe it.

I think what's most distrubing to me is the fact we're trying to get thru our own crap in our lives without seeing a family fighting firsthand again while dealing w/ it ourselves on our home territory.

She's PASSIVELY posting to her xh and she thinks really that if she pleads, begs, or implores, or writes enough about faith and religion or gets us to condemn the man that he will change and come bnack. That's what I now believe. Especially since she slipped yet again and said that she was looking for a counselor for both of them.

It's time for an individual PSYCHOLOGIST f4m. Not any counselor anymore. It's time to get help, heal and get the big guns in on this. The counselors ain't workin' dear. I am sorry but it's not working. Remember what Einstein once said..."the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting the outcome to be different."

Life is moving very fast with me right now. And I am focusing on other things. Sure as a parent I have to deal with the ever lying and cheating xh, but I minimize it as much as I can while still being a good parent and dealing with either the financial issues that are hopefully soon to be resolved and the parenting issues which will last for a while longer as my son is only 5 years old.

Basically, if you want those involved in your personal matters directly to hear your opinions, TALK TO THEM. Don't entangle a divorce board on the internet. We're working thru our own crap and trying to help others wading thru the same stuff. Sorry, but it's troo painful to me to see this family struggling here in front of my face and also know that f4m, sufdb or whoever in the heck he is, and their D are not healing or doing anything productive. He vents about how he was right. She vents on him, and the daughter is somebody stucvk in the middle of TWO DYSFUNCTIONAL PARENTS.4

aND TO ADD. a VENT IS A good thing SOMETIMES. wHEN YOU NEED TRO CLEAR YOUR HEART AND HEAD IF YOU'VE ENDURED ALOT OF CRAPOLA AS i HAVE AND OTHERS HERE ON THIS BOARD. bUT A VENT IS NOT MEANT FOR THE STBX OR YOUR KIDS TO READ. i POST MY THOUGHTS HERE BECAUSE i BELIEVE WHILE PUBLIC, IT'S A RELATIVELY SAFE PLACE TO BE.

tHIS IS NOT ABOUT THE PROVERBIAL VENT. iT'S ABOUT ALLOWING YOUR KIDS INTO YOUR PERSONAL HELL. iT'S ABOUT HOW WRONG IT IS TO SIT YOUR TEENAGE OR ADULT KIDS DOWN AND EXPLAIN TO THEM WHAT ADULTERY IS AND THE MECHANICS OF SEX BETWEEN THEIR PARENT AND THE op AND DO THAT STUFF. iT'S ALSO WRONG TO SPOUT "STUPID DOGMA" AS THOUGHT YOU'RE A GENIOUS OF PYSCHOLOGY OF SORTS LIKE THER XH DOES. wITHOUT BLAME FOR HIS ACTIONS AND WITHOUT CONSCIENCE FOR HIS NEGATIVE CHOICES.

iN THE END, i WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THIS BE A LESSON TO OTHERS HERE. iF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO YOUR X THEN SAY IT. dON'T pretend to be in nc WHEN YOU'RE PASSIVELY POSTING TO THEM AND THEY CAN READ YOUR VERY THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. tHAT IS NOT nc AT ALL.

i BELIEVE ONE DAY THAT MY SON WILL FIGURE OUT FOR HIMSELF WHAT HAPPENED IN OUR FAILED MARRIAGE. aND i BELIEVE i WON'T HAVE TO SAY REALLY ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

tODAY i HAD A SCHEDULED MEETING WITH X OVER FINANCES AND THE LUMP SUM WHICH IS DUE ME NEXT WEEK. hE'S STILL THE SAME. tHERE AIN'T NOTHING i COULD SAY DO OR WRITE THAT WOULD CHANGE THE PATH THIS MAN IS ON. aND THAT'S COOL FOR ME. i AM HAPPY WITH WHO i AM, FOUND MYSELF AFTER YEARS OF LIVING IN AN ALMOST PRISON WITHT HE MAN...AN ABUSIVE CONTROLLER AND PATHOLOGICAL LIAR. bUT i GET IT NOW. aND WHILE IT'S NOT AN EASY RIDE, i AM GETTING THRU IT. gEORGE cARLIN ONCE SAID "iT'S BEST TO SWIM THE BREASTROKE IN LIFE SO THAT YOU CAN CLEAR AWAY THE T%RDS FROM YOUR PATH".

hEALING COMES IN MANY DIFFERENT FORMS HERE. wE HAVE FEUDING FAMILIES HERE, WE HAVE FORMER WAYWARDS HERE WHO WAWNT TO GET BACK WITH THEIR X'S, WE HAVE OTHERS WHO ARE DEALING WITH THE AFTERMATH OF A CHEATING SPOUSE, AND OTHERS LIKE ME WHO DEAL WTIH THEIR X'S DOING MORE AND MORE STUFF WHILE PROCREATING OFFSPRING WITH THEIR AFFAIR PARTNERS. iT'S A MIXED BAG HERE. aND IT IS WHAT IT IS.

bUT i FIND IT PERSONALLY ALARMING AND DO NOT THINK IT'S RIGHT FOR THE DAUGHTER TO POST HERE OR THAT THE MOM LED THE DAUGHTER WHETHER ACTIVELY OR PASSIVELY TO THIS SITE.

lET'S END THIS NOW OK?

sORRY. sORRY. tHERE'S A PROBLEM WITH MY COMPUTER AND IT GOT STUCK ON CAPS. i WAS NOT YELLING OK?

aLTHOUGHT SOMETIMES i SURE FEEL LIKE IT HERE...LMAOROTF.

Awww, WHY stop it now? This is more entertaining than TV. If these poeple do not sea how dysfunctional they reall y are, we can all just enjoy the show. COunt me another one who gave up on them a long time ago

Just pass the popcorn.

Spoken tongue-in-cheeck of course.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Yeah,..it's way better than reality TV..who can believe people who actually act this way! Wow.

does anyone know anything about DID?

FAITH: I know it is hard to forgive. Especially when there is still a broken or troubled relationship with someone. There is a book called "Road to Forgiveness" that I'd recommend you read if you can find it. It's an autobiograpy written by a woman whose daughter and mother were killed by a drunk driver (she was on Oprah also). She is a Christian and the book is basically her story and journey through the pain and into forgiveness, etc. She forgave before her husband did. Other family members thought she was a fool. Her and the drunk driver actually became friends through correspondence and the forgiveness she extended to that drunk driver brought much healing for both of them, in very profound ways.

Sometimes reading about other's journeys through pain can help us get through ours... when we see how God brought good from it, how He helped them through it, etc.

Anyways... forgiveness is a choice and decision and often it is something that we have to "revisit." I have forgiven my husband but there are many days when emotions arise and I am feeling angry or bitter or hurt, etc. and I have to forgive all over again, and I almost have to sometimes force myself to do it! I often literally WANT to hate him, WANT to be bitter, WANT to see revenge upon him, etc. and I'm tempted to pray, "Lord, don't let him be happy." Etc.

If there are current troubles with your ex, there are ways to deal with them that can be done peacefully (on your part... because all you can really control is you) and with boundaries. For instance, if he yells at you, just remain calm, return it with a kind voice, be professional, and do what ever you need to do and then leave.

I once hit a car but the other driver was at fault. She pulled out in front of me when I had the right of way. She was yelling and screaming at me and just in a fit. She was certain it was my fault and was saying that her kids were hurt and on and on and on. Well, I am for the most part a fairly calm person and I just didn't say much to her at all. I was worried that I'd be the one found at fault because she was pretty convincing, but I just said hardly anything and other than, "Here's my insurance info." and little else. I didn't yell back, I didn't accuse, etc. I knew if I did, it would not help any of us. Well, luckily there was a witness and she was able to testify to what she saw.

I share that with you simply to say that we can control our reactions to things and the way we handle them. Believe me, that was not a fun way to spend a couple hrs. of my day and that woman was really, really unpleasant! Granted, she wasn't my husband and it was easy to leave knowing I'd never see her again. But the main point is is that all I could control was MY reaction and how I handled it. I could have griped about her and been furious about it for awhile, but why? It would have done my heart no good.

If your husband does things that hurt you or does wrong, then he does. You simply cannot control what he does. You can only accept it and do what you can to either avoid, deal with, or change things. All you can control is how you deal with them, how you react to them, and how you chose to live after the fact. Forgiveness doesn't mean that you approve of what someone has done or that you like it. It doesn't mean that you deny your hurt, etc. It means though that you let go of the anger, the hatred, the desire for revenge. Sometimes we like to hang on to all of that. Sometimes we've been hanging on for so long and we don't know how to let go.

That would proably be where a good counselor could help. Just by giving you some practical ideas and strategies for how to forgive,let go, and deal with the times that you interact with your husband. But counselors are not miracle workers and you've got to be willing to do the work that it takes to put those strategies into practice. You are not alone though. First of all, God is with you. Secondly, I believe your daughters care and love you. I don't think your daughter would've come here if she didn't. Obviously, there are people here who have really spent much time trying to help you and I'm sure they will continue to. And from what it sounds, there are people in your life who are also with you.

You said in a post that you are your husband are like a submarine that's sunk. Something like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I've felt like that before too. Like I have fallen into this deep hole and every time I get close to getting out, I fall back in. Well, you've gotta get out of the submarine.. or the hole, or whatever it might be! It is not easy and you might have setbacks, but you gotta keep trying.

Faith, it is very hard for me, or anyone, to know what to believe as far as ANY family is concerned. And in all honesty, I don't want to be in the middle of you and your husband. I won't take sides and I don't want either of you to put me in the middle. I don't look down on either of you. I'm sure you're both "guilty" in areas and "innocent" in others. We ALL are. And we all have our perceptions... and really no one can really know the truth, other than the people directly involved. And sometimes they don't even know because they think things that aren't true!

If your husband is deliberately hurting you, which you seem to believe he is, I will never truly know... but if he is, I believe that more than likely there is a reason for it. From how you desribe it, he sounds as if he is angry with/at you.

Even though you are divorced, he is still the father of your children and will be in your life for a long time as a result of that. It will be a very painful thing to have such a painful and troubled relationship with him and would be good if you can find a way to somehow find some sort of peace with him. It may take awhile and I think a counselor could give you some suggestions as to how to do this.

My parents had a very bitter divorce and it took awhile, but now... well, let's just say that my father and his wife invite not only us, but also my mother, to their home for every holiday. And my mother comes. Let's see: this Easter, it was my sis, her husband, my dad and stepmom, stepmom's parents, and my mom. And my mom brought a cake! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And mom and stepmom sat next to each other. I am not sure how they all did it (I was fortunate to have a stepmom who's always been very kind towards my mother), but my parents were able to get beyond all the hurt and anger (it took years though). I do know that a big reason was for our sake (their children).

And I think that it would be good for you to maybe have that as a goal: to have a peaceful relationship with your husband. It's not something that will happen right away and it may even take years, but it can be a goal that you can work towards. It will take effort on your part and you might be the one to have to begin it. But maybe if you can set some goals like that: 1) Forgive husband, 2) Have a peaceful relationship with husband, etc. And maybe your counselor can give you some suggestions as to how to go about this and can help you as you work on it... because again, it will take time. But I believe it'd benefit all of you.

If he yells at you or things like that, you need to just calmly and politely say, "Mr. Faithforme, I understand that you are angry but you are disrespecting me when you yell at me like this. I am going to leave now. When you are able and willing to speak to me civilly, then we can take care of this." Something like that. You don't have to be rude, mean, or anything like that, but you can remove yourself from the situation politely. I know maybe that's not always possible, but there are other things you can do.

And, Faith, once again, if you are doing things that are embittering him or causing him frustration, etc. then you need to examine those things and change them! When you come here and call him "spawn of Satan" or other things, you are "dissing" him and he will NOT treat you kindly. I cannot emphasize that enough. If you don't treat him with kindness, don't expect it from him. Go to God with those things, Faith. God is more than able to help you and there is far more privacy there than there is here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Most anybody in this world will feel hurt, offended, angry, embittered, etc. if someone else speaks poorly about them to others... even if it's true, even if it's among friends, even if the person means well. I see no way that your daughter or husband will ever feel good towards you when they know you are saying negative things about them here. I know you feel that you need to share it with others, but... well, I've already talked about this and so have others so I think you've already read about it plenty.

I have wondered also Faith... if in the depths of your heart, you have a longing to be reconciled with your husband. I don't think you should necessarily share that here if you do or don't. But I have believed from the beginning that you still love him. That much of what you say is in anger due to the hurt you feel as a result of the divorce. And there is nothing wrong with that. This man was your husband. Wow... that is such a strong bond and I KNOW that God grieves when marriages end and He grieves at why they end (the things that lead to the divorce).

Have you ever visited the site www.restorem.org ? Even if you have no desire to reconcile, there is still some stuff there that might help you to see things differently... in a different light. It seems that you are very focused on your husband's wrongdoings, and it's understandable, but all you can change is YOU. And it's very possible that when you begin to change, others will too. When you begin to offer forgiveness, forgiveness will also possibly be given to you. Etc. It's that whole law of reaping and sowing.

I want to list some books that I think would be good for you to read. Maybe not now since books cost money <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but sometime.

God bless.

BOOKS
"The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness" by John McArthur.
"When Forgiveness Doesn't Make Sense" by Robert Jeffress
"Changes That Heal" by Henry Cloud (author of "Boundaries")
"Lies Women Believe and the Truth That Sets Them Free" by Nancy Leigh DeMoss
"What to Do Until the Psychiatrist Comes: How to Counsel Others and Yourself" by Bob Phillips
"Controlling Your Emotions Before They Control You" by Bob Phillips
"How to Live Your Life Right When Your Life Goes Wrong" by Leslie Vernick
"How to Mend a Broken Heart" by [censored] Innes

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I for one am thankful for your opinions (even if I don't agree with them at times )!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Elan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know for me, there've been times when I have communcated with people via the net and left feeling lonelier than before because we NEED in-person relationships in our lives and the anonymity of the net can be well... comforting at times, but in the whole scheme of things, can actually cause us to feel rather alone and/or isolated.

I have also had times of spending so much time online that I have done so at the expense of my life and relationships! think the amount of forums/chat rooms, etc. on the net and their popularity is indicative of people's desires to connect with others. Many people don't feel close to others in their lives and they feel it when they go online even though online relationships are very non-committal because you don't really know these people.

Anyways, there's been some interestings commentaries and studies on the whole "phenomenon." There are definite pros to the net, but cons as well.

LoveMyEx -- Amen to that! There comes a point -- at least there came a point in my recovery that I knew I had to stay away. I had to recover in *real life*. Although I am very grateful for the people on the *net* and still communicate with a few on a regular basis -- you still have to LIVE outside of this world.

Did you ever think that perhaps people can *read* you better than *hear* you? For me, communicating by writing is easier -- gives me a chance to think about what I want to write (yeah yeah...and sometimes I don't *think* enough before it gets typed in! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). When I separated from my ex, he left behind hundreds of letters that I left him over the years. I have maybe TWO letters from him. He was the *talker* and would talk a blue streak. I would still be thinking about what he said an hour ago and how to respond to that, and he would be on point #8. No wonder we were lost in our communication!

While the *net* was a wonderful supportive place to be - there comes a point where you have to balance it with life. Maybe a place where a family could post, might be the next step in this forum -- guided by qualified counsellors to get down to the issues. In my marriage, which was abusive, perhaps getting it down in writing -- without the fear of retaliation or raised fists might be a good step. It might be a place where you can get the closure that some couples need.

I for one have learned much in this place...and thank you all!

Peachy - I need to clarify somethings that you stated. One, I was on a horse trip out of state with my daughter, and my ex was in his affair fulltime with the other woman. During this time I knew about the affair as well as my oldest D did. This is when I realized that the ex had my daughter INVOLVED in his EMOTIONAL affair with the other woman. Through statements my oldest D said to me about the other woman, and how her dad felt about the OW is how I found some information about the OW and how emotionally involved this D was in her dads affair. Going through counseling, this was not right on her dads part to involve my oldest D in something that she should of been left out of. Which now I feel the ex was justifying his affair to my oldest D, but was not being respectful to her feelings and emotions. He was so involved with the OW, that he disregarded my oldest D emotional issues. And didn't consider what emotional damage he caused to my oldest D.

You stated that I brought my D to marriage builders. This is not the way it happened. And yes, I am becoming defensive at this point. Because I am tired of stating the truth when statements are not being told correctly. The truth is, and if you will look back, as SNL (ex) even wrote in his post that he is the one that brought me to MB. So Peachy, look back and find where he did infact bring me to MB. Yes, ex brought me to MB when he was in his affair fulltime. He is the one that told me to look on MB and post. He encouraged me, to express myself here. And he is the one that told my oldest D about MB, not I! It was my D's choice to view MB, and read and post. I didn't even know MB existed until ex brought it to my attention.

The arguments about marriage builders, is that my ex would tell me what to post and not. Look back at the posting of thinker/snl and see how many times I had to change a post. This was cause I was scared to be my authentic self. I was still involved with this man, and I ALLOWED him to control my writing, which was WRONG on my part. I would be crying and reposting, cause I was really messed up with a man that was suppose to be my friend, my husband but had no feelings towards me, but only for the OW. And during that time I was called ugly names often. And here I was still doing what he wanted, cause I was scared to defy this man. Which was MY FAULT!!!!

LovemyEx - yes, forgiveness is difficult, especially when you still have some feelings towards your ex. I am asking for God to help me. When ex yelled at me at the post office very recently, I did put my papers back in the manilla folder and walk away. Thinking that the post office was a safe place. WRONG again on my part! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I feel there is no safe place with him. Wasn't safe, don't really know where there is a safe place. This is hard, when I lived with this man for years, and think that I am protecting myself. The learning process still continues on. All I know, that no contact is the best avenue with a controller. And yes, SNL is a controller 98%.

I have heard about couples that do become civilized and can do things together with their kids. I feel this won't happen anytime soon here. For the ex is Disneyland dad, buys kids airline tickets to go out of state, and buys the kids expensive snowboarding equipment and many other things. Buys them vehicles, and etc. Remember I have adult children. I just provide the mundane things, as a roof over their head, toilet paper, washer/dryer/diswasher, soap, etc. All the things necessary to live, but not being part of the FUN FUN FUN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Ex takes them to bookstores, and buys them things there. Ex takes them out to dinner and the movies, and pays their expenses. I can't afford this. But I do try to provide food everyday for them, but once again, this is the mundane things, and it is not FUN FUN FUN! Reality is, they have a roof over their heads. They have a clean bed to sleep in. They have their animals as well as mine here, which I take very good care of them ALL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (HAPPILY!) For these animals did not ask to be brought into this world and to be chosen by this family. We chose them, because they were SPECIAL, and are still very SPECIAL to all of us! They have a place for their vehicles. They have electricity for their computers, to watch TV, play music. They have heat to keep their bodies warm (not saying our house is warm by any means) (keeping the thermostat really down low and it is cold in this house). They have sewer to bath and etc. They have clean water to shower, and drink. But this is the mundane things that has been with them their whole life. Nothing extraordinary. And this is not the glorified things that ex can provide. Trips, new equipment, movies, dinner, books, etc.

When is the ex going to be respectful to me? That is what I would like to know. He demands, just like the taxes this year, didn't ask in a nice manner, but yelled and demanded at the post office. And justified by saying he was upset. So that gives him justification to demean me in front of other people and make a scene?

I am hurting many days physically. Just like yesterday, my youngest son had to take me to the Dr. I couldn't drive for the pain I was in. I was up since 4am that morning with a very painful back. My oldest son tried helping me in the morning with my back, to no avail. So I called the Dr. and they got me in at the end of the appointments. I had a hard time breathing, and stayed on the couch with a heating pad most of the day. Which the Dr. found the reason for the excrutiating pain I was in. This is how I have to live the rest of my life? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Not what I call a pleasant life. When ex can do whatever he wants. And he doesn't take responsibility for injuring me, just justifies it. He justifies his actions. I am trying to get my life together, and yes I do want to join a biking club nearby. First I have to deal with the shoulder pain. Then maybe I can join the biking club, I will see hopefully the middle of this summer. Plus I don't really know how expensive it is going to be, and I need a bike first. So yes, there are all these things, and I don't know if I can afford it.

I need to get going. I have a full day at court tomorrow. So I have plenty to do. And all 4 of the cats have an appt. at the vets today for their feline-leukemia and shots, and flea control. Just more of the mundane things that I provide. Ex is paying for the bills, but he doesn't consider the everyday care that goes into each and every one of these animals. Making sure they have water, food, clean kitty boxes, etc. I just gave 2 dogs a bath 2 days ago. One more to go. The big guy, which he is about 120#s. More of the mundane things, that I was expected to do during the marriage too.

Talk later. Just trying to clear things up. Don't mean to get anyone upset. I am a good woman, with great love for people, and animals, and am a good mother, was a good wife, and I love God.

Faith, it is obvious to me now that you have not heard a word that these people have told you. The day YOU take responsibility for your actions and your words will be the day you start healing. As long as you keep blaming others for your problems you will NEVER EVER come out of your angry ways and you will die a very bitter, unhappy woman.

In my book you are a lost cause. Our relationship is 100% dead and when I leave shortly, you will NOT hear from me again, that is a promise. It is obvious you are not going to apologize for any of the things you have said to me, you are not going to stop trashing me, you are not going to stop accusing me of being my father’s pawn and I am tired of sweeping your bad behavior under the rug.

Faith, if you want to prove to me that you truly care and want a relationship with me, I ask you to do the following. In both this thread and the “Having a problem!” thread, print out the posts written by LoveMyEx, BeContent, and Not-So-Silent. Read them, and re-read them and re-read them again. Highlight them and then write yourself a document commenting on everything said. Address it honestly and look deep down inside yourself and come up with responses to ALL of their statements. Show me you have done this, so I at least know you still care. I don’t need to read your comments; I just want to see the highlighted posts and a stack of papers written by you. If you want to sit down and we go through it together, that is up to you, the ball is in your court. Finally, take all of those papers to your pastor and counselor and discuss it with them. Right now you are floundering around like a fish out of water. This will give you a path and a grounded way to think and address YOUR problems.

For the rest of the posters, don’t take offense that I didn’t mention other names for her to print. Some of you made great comments as well. It is just that I feel these three people have hit the nail on the head and covered everything with their posts. Especially LoveMyEx, this person has summed up the entire problem quite eloquently. I had not responded to this thread yet because LoveMyEx was taking the words right out of my mouth!

I see that you are making your own path now. You have decided to look for a part time job. That is one step in the right direction. You are going out of state to pursue your love of horses. I acknowledge you for that, and do feel that your love of horses is your true love. And your internet business with the horse field is great, always thought that was great move. But it is moving very slowly, and in the meantime we all are hurting for $$$, I am having a hard time making ends meet here too. You are having a hard time as well as the rest of the family.

As far as your father. He has his words that have hurt me just recently, and his control has been shown today again. I will not mention anything here about it. Cause this is between your father and I. I do not want you involved.

I did today, take all the cats to the vet. My younger son and I did the task of rounding them up and putting them in containers. The one cat ofhers, had a foreing object in her eye. The vet numbed her eye and removed the foreign object. They all got their shots, and Leukemia vaccine. Then at home, as we were letting them out of the cages, they received their flea treatment. The one cat has to stay in the house till tomorrow morning, when the anesthetic wears off the one eye. This was for my D cats, as well as my cat. Friday I take the dogs in and my younger son will help.

I stated is what dad exposed you to was not right. This has caused much emotional damage to all of us. The truth is spoken, and I am sorry it hurt you. I am sorry that all of this family has been exposed to such terrible fights. Do you remember all the name calling that dad did, all the unkind words of him telling us all to leave him and the ow alone? Hon, those were words of deep FFOOOGGGGG. Your father has his issues, as well as I do. I want to get counseling for him, professional counseling, and if I am to be included that is okay with me. That is why I am counseling now. The betrayal that your dad did was severe, and did cause a pain that I hope you never experience in your life. You don't deserve it, and you don't deserve to be hurting with both your parents attitudes.

As far as printing things out, I could very well print them out, if that is what you want. Should we print out what was stated to you as well? I am doing my best, and all the information that I stated is my view. Remember we each have different views. Have you asked dad how he treated me at the post office? About the tax issue he told me it is not a significant difference. In fact, he said I can choose to redue my taxes or leave them the same. It really is not that significant.

I do listen to what people say here, and I have done many things that they said to do and not. One was no contact. That was brought to my eyes many times, and I finally did it. Changing the locks on the house, I still haven't done it, for fear. I finally recently did block the e-mail from your father. Which I should of done a long time ago recommended by many here. I am working on myself, and fighting the courts still. This is not something that I want to do with the courts, but I am not able to move ahead and have a life that I should have. Therefore, there needs to be a disconnection. Which should of been instilled right after June 6.

Your father does love all of you adult children. And I don't ever want that taken away from you all. He is responsible for his doings, and he is responsible for his actions, as well as I am. I am working on it, and I do apologize.

As far as calling you a liar. There was a misunderstanding and I am sorry. The younger son did state he was never told. But maybe he just forgot, or blocked the words. You seem quite sure you told him, so I will state that you did tell him. The words were not clear, and so there was a misunderstanding. You don't lie, and therefore I found this unusual, but you were very upset. When one is upset words of anger come out, and I did feel you and your father were attacking me. Those are my feelings and that is how I felt. I do not want you in the middle. That is not fair. Now that the taxes are not a big deal, I hope that next year your father keeps the taxes to himself, as I will. I will only ask the parties that are relevant to my taxes. As I did this year. I only want to find my life, get my life in order, and find some resolution to communicating with my ex in a fashionable manner.

He has a controlling side, and when this comes out, I will no longer stay in his toxic communication. He needs to respectful, as well as I do.

Please tell me what you are upset about, in private e-mail. I think we should keep it to that point right now. So that we can find out what made you so angry. And keep others here away from this situation. Do you agree? If not tell me in private e-mail, or here if that is what you want. I would rather talk to you privately.

<small>[ April 14, 2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Faith4me ]</small>

What's reallyu wierd now (and yea my computer is still acting up..) is that the daughter is using this thread to still post to her mom.

I am sorry, but I find this very wierd and strange. Can't these two people learn how to talk?

Faith, I have been in your corner and have seen alot. It is just so unusual that just alot of these very things several of us have posted to you over m months and months don't get answered. Some do, but I'd much rather see some positive results than an answer btw. We want you to heal. And I honestly feel that this isn't healing here having your d jumjp in on threads like this.

Families need to talk, not write long emails to each other. As for me...I haven't posted alot b/c there's just too much darn stuff going on and not enough time in the day.

Faith, you asked the same thing in your last posts...When will your x treat you with respect? Well they don't have to be kind or respectful. If they didn't do it when you were married, then how in the heck will they be expected to do that when you're divorced?

Also, having boundaries in place will help with that.

A few weeks ago when I felt really down after a series of events with the former, my aunt told me to "write down five things each day that makes you happy to be alive". I did that. And within a week, my attitude had turned around again. I think this would be good to do. You've got to change your fucus on the whole thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Families need to talk, not write long emails to each other. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If writing emails is the only way that people can communicate with each other than face to face -- so be it! I think emails may be a good way to go because rather than spitting the words out, you can type it, read it and think about what you really want to say.

What I would suggest to Faith and Daughter -- write an email to each other covering the points you want to cover. Keep a draft OVERNIGHT...then review it the next day and send it to each other. Stick ON TOPIC, and don't go throwing in the "Oh yeah...remember when..."

This is your opportunity to really get the communication ball rolling and straighten out things BETWEEN YOU TWO. The relationship YOU are both responsible for is the one the two of you have, NOT what Dad should be doing for/with daughter. The two of you -- Faith & Daughter need to work on your OWN relationship with eachother.

As a mom of an adult child -- once the adult child stepped out of reach of the parents issues, life tended to even out for her. If there is an issue directly relating to the daughter, then it's open to discussion. If it's not, I suggest that the BOTH of you do NOT discuss it with eachother. Start looking towards what's in front of you instead of looking in that rearview mirror to what was behind you.

I wish you both the best and pray that you both work towards a healthy relationship with eachother. My dad passed away a couple of years ago (we had a great relationship!) I am so sad that he's not here anymore -- and I would have hated if he would have died and I didn't have peace with him or a relationship with him. You BOTH have the opportunity to work on that TOGETHER.

I'm so sorry that the both of you are in such pain. Please...... work on it. The journey will be well worth it.

Elan - yes it is hard losing your father. I lost my father 2 years ago too. During my ex affair. It was difficult dealing with the affair and betrayal, and watching my dad diagnosed with cancer drift away little by little. I did have a good relationship with my father. Which I am grateful for. I do wish to have a good relationship with my daughter. There are many issues that need to be dealt with.

That is why I suggested e-mail for us to communicate. That way, all of you can help others in dire need, and we can surface our needs to each other. I do wish to get counseling, for this family. And I will work on that as soon as next week is over with. My finals and this week I have very little time.