Emails might be a start Faith4Me. There are plenty of places that offer counselling, but they won't go if they don't want to. Work on one relationship at a time. Trust me on this one -- your daughter needs you. She probably wants to have a healthy relationship with you, and not one where you say things about her dad. Leave dad out of your relationship and work on what the two of you can salvage. It's worth it.

Hi Faith4me,

I am reading a lot more about YOU in your recent posts, and you usually start doing very well when you keep your focus on you and your part in things. I have been saying extra prayers for you because this is surely a painful time for you. I believe this is the good kind of pain, the pain that spurs us to move ahead in much better ways than we ever have before. Hang in there Faith4me, and seek God's guidance in what steps to take and how to take them ok?

I want to mention a couple things from diff view's post and your response to it. I think you already know that I read diff view's original 3-part post in its entirety and I truly believe she wants what's best for you, and wants a good relationship with you as you heal.

diff view said:
"Our relationship is 100% dead and when I leave shortly, you will NOT hear from me again, that is a promise."

diff view also said:
"Faith, if you want to prove to me that you truly care and want a relationship with me, I ask you to do the following. In both this thread and the “Having a problem!” thread, print out the posts written by LoveMyEx, BeContent, and Not-So-Silent. Read them, and re-read them and re-read them again. Highlight them and then write yourself a document commenting on everything said. Address it honestly and look deep down inside yourself and come up with responses to ALL of their statements. Show me you have done this, so I at least know you still care. I don’t need to read your comments; I just want to see the highlighted posts and a stack of papers written by you. If you want to sit down and we go through it together, that is up to you, the ball is in your court. Finally, take all of those papers to your pastor and counselor and discuss it with them. Right now you are floundering around like a fish out of water. This will give you a path and a grounded way to think and address YOUR problems."

Faith4me, I truly don't think this was meant to be a manipulation or demand although it sounds like it could be. I believe diff view is trying to say that she needs you to START before she leaves, not have everything all done before she leaves.

diff view probably already knows how busy you are now with school, court, etc. I don't think she meant to imply that for her to know that you care about her that you must drop everything to accomplish "a stack of papers" with responses to "ALL of their statements". I'm sure diff view knows that would take many, many, many hours and you wouldn't be able to accomplish any of the other things you also need to accomplish. You tend to not do well and you tend to go into one of your downward spirals when you feel pressured. I truly don't think diff view is demanding that you finish all this now, I think she needs you to get started and make it important like maybe devoting a certain time each day to work on it? You might want to ask her and see what she really meant.

Also, it probably isn't a good idea to work for hours and hours to the EXCLUSION OF EVERYTHING ELSE in your life. This is emotional stuff, and we all need to take extra care of ourselves while we are delving into our more painful issues while also taking care of life's daily responsibilities. Take care of yourself WHILE you are doing this ok? It's a process, not an event---it's a marathon, not a sprint.

Faith4me said:
"As far as printing things out, I could very well print them out, if that is what you want. Should we print out what was stated to you as well?"

I would stick to what YOU can do for diff view. She was given very good suggestions for shortcutting her own path to wellness from this situation, but she might not be ready to look at that yet--she's too worried about you and your relationship with her to worry about herself. If you want, print it out and put it away in case she ever wants it--but don't keep offering it to her. She will do her own things in her own time--if or when she wants the info that KaylaAndy and others gave her, she knows where to find it and who to ask.

Take extra good care of yourself Faith4me, you have a lot on your plate right now. Maybe ask your minister for special prayers for a while?

Faith, I am really tired this evening and have been spending a little too much time here lately (my eyes are shot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but I do want to respond more to your posts. I am trying to put myself in all your shoes. It is so difficult to offer help to others when we really don't know what goes on behind closed doors, and here, in a forum, it's even harder because I've never even met any of you. I want you to know though that I have compassion for you and I know my own pain over my divorce, and I empathize with you in a way I probably would've been unable to fully do before I went through my divorce. I do not judge or condemn you... or your daughter and not even your husband. I don't view any of you as mentally ill or laughable, etc. but as 3 hurting people. It's a hurting world and no one is fully "normal." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> There's a good book by a man named John Ortburg called "Everyone's Normal 'Til You Get to Know Them!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm sure you know of the girl in WI who faked her abduction recently. Well, I was reading the most recent update and supposedly, she was doing it to get her boyfriend's attention. Things with him were rocky and she had come across some emails he'd written to another girl. So she faked her abduction to get his attention/affection, although she didn't forsee/realize it would go so far and have such serious ramifications.

Now she is facing a huge fine, possible imprisonment, and of course, public embarrassment as many people know of what she did.

But yet, my heart went out to her and it reminded me of how the affairs of the heart can be so painful that they can cause us to lose perspective and they can cause us to do foolish things, etc. But my main point is is that when people go through painful losses/betrayals, etc., the pain can affect them in such ways that others may see them as "mentally ill" or "messed up," etc. When really, in essence, they are merely deeply hurting and/or lost people. It's amazing how much a broken relationship affects us. But they do.

And that's how I view the three of you, and I have been there, and others have too. But things are serious and you don't want to get to a point where you do something like this young woman... something you regret or that brings you further loss or humiliation or consequence. And you need to try to keep in focus that the Lord will use this to bring about growth, maturity, and insight if you allow Him to, and that will help you in the future when you face various other trials. Because life is hard and if we don't grow and mature through the trials and tribulations, they will always knock us flat.

I view your daughter as trying to communicate, both to you and to those who are your internet friends (because she knows that they influence you), and I read in her last post that she is angry (obviously) and feels perhaps as if her feelings are dismissed and not validated.

It really doesn't even matter much if she is right or wrong. It matters that you are willingy to hear her and listen to her... with respect, w/o dismissing her feelings or telling her to get help, etc. That is one of the most aggravating things someone can possibly hear (when it's said in response to them sharing their feelings). They share their frustrations, anger, etc. and the other person says, "You need help" or "You are really hurting, aren't you?" What does that say to them? It says that their is no basis for their feelings and that there is no problem with you (it's them), and not only that, but it says that their feelings are so "wacky" that they need "help." It's a very, very poor way to build or keep a relationship and a very easy way to embitter someone and push them away.

And I somewhat feel that that is how your response to your daughter comes across. Well, when I read it, it comes across that way to me. I actually think that the fact that she is trying to communicate to you (even if it's anger), is a healthy thing. She could just slam her door and say nothing. That's not healthy. But she is trying. And she is angry. Maybe she feels like posting on the forum is the only way to get her feelings across. Maybe she feels that this is the place to get your attention. I'm not sure, but I'm also not sure if it really matters.

And I don't think it's just about her being in the "middle" of the divorce. She is sharing things that go beyond the divorce. I don't even necessarily think it's wrong that her father told her about the affair. She is 25 years old. She would have wanted to know. She is not a young child. Maybe she feels as if you are treating her as a young child? I can't remember right now all that she expressed in her reply, but I do believe that she feels as if her feelings are being dismissed/invalidated as if she is just a child or in need of "help."

Well, I do hope that in time, there is healing, growth, and "breakthroughs" in some of this. Alot of people have invested quite a bit of time in trying to help you and your family.

And now that I am more awake and my thoughts are going, I think I'll try to read your daughter's and your replies more thoroughly and maybe comment.

Elan, yes, I agree alot with what you were saying about communicating through writing. It's good. But also, it can be not good if a person only communicates that way. That's how my mother often communicated with me... would leave me a note and I didn't like it. I wanted her to TALK to me, but she was always afraid of conflict.

Anyways, Elan said: "She probably wants to have a healthy relationship with you, and not one where you say things about her dad."

Faith, please, please hear that. You daughter does not want you talking bad about your dad here or anywhere. He's her father. You've got to try to not give in to that temptation. I was fully aware of my father's wrongdoings, etc. in my parent's marriage. I knew of the things he did that hurt me and my sister, etc. But, still, I did not like it when my mom spoke poorly of him. And I didn't like it when he spoke poorly of her.

I'm too tired to analyze all the reasons why, and I'm not sure I even understand them all, but I think even as adults, we don't like it when others speak poorly of our parents. Now if we are the ones sharing frustrations, its differnet. I don't know.. I guess it's just the dynamics of relationships. Kinda like how a big brother will torture and tease his younger sister, but if any other person does, they're toast!

Faith,

From your daughter's post... listen to how she feels. The two main things that stand out to me are:

She is angry that you are speaking badly of her: "you are not going to stop trashing me."

I believe that when we publically speak poorly of someone, it is a very distancing and offensive thing. In the Bible, there are many Proverbs about the wisdom and blessing of holding one's tongue, of being trustworthy (not sharing trusted things), of not gossiping/slandering, etc. Even when my husband told his friends things about me that were true, it still hurt because it broke my trust. You want to be able to trust that your deepest, darkest fears and "secrets" are safe with that person and when they share them with others, you aren't "safe" with that person. And it hurts you and offends and causes distance.

Your daughter also feels that you view her as being manipulated by her father vs. her having an intelligent mind and being able to think for herself: "you are not going to stop accusing me of being my father’s pawn."

My husband, during our separation, was a very angry, bitter man who accused me of "fooling/deceiving" people. He saw me as evil and wretched (because he believed that I did not love him), and I was staying with a particular couple during our separation to whom he said: "How have you fooled them? You've totally fooled them" (because they were telling him that divorcing me was wrong, etc). Their response was: "Look, we are not just dumb people. We've been around awhile and we're not so stupid that we are easily deceived." They were offended that he would say that I had fooled them because they knew me and for him to say that was to say that they were ignorant and stupid basically.

Well, I think maybe that's how it's coming across to your daughter. She is 25 and has a mind and when you say she is her father's "pawn," you are saying that she has no mind to be able to think on her own but rather that she is easily manipulated, fooled, and snowballed. Can you see how that would offend/hurt her and sound disrespectful to her? I don't think you see her that way (as being stupid) but the way you are saying it, it comes across to her that way.

Now, she is actually willing to sit down with you and go through posts together, etc. I have to share with you that in my past times of being angry with my mother, I don't think I would've been willing to do something like that. That, to me, shows maturity that she's willing to do that. She is willing to be your friend and have an adult relationship with you. My mother did things that I resented to the point that I didn't want to have a friendship with her. I simply don't think your daughter is as in need of "help" as others (or you) might think.

It might be a good idea like she mentioned to share some things from here with a counselor or pastor (although it'd take time). It is hard for you to be objective and I think even hard for people here to be objective, but I think a neutral counselor or pastor could be and could maybe have insight as an objective, neutral person and help you see things that maybe are difficult for you to see.

God bless.

Faith, one thing you said in your reply to your daugher was: "Please tell me what you are upset about, in private e-mail. I think we should keep it to that point right now. So that we can find out what made you so angry."

Your daughter has expressed many times here why she is angry and upset. So when you say this, it's as if you are dismissing what she's already said. Like you are wanting to get at the "real" reason when she feels that she has been very blunt in giving you the "real" reason. It seems as if you believe that it can't possibly be you that she is angry about/over, but it must be some underlying thing... some psychological cause, etc. (others have said similar things) when she's almost shouting: "I'm mad at you and I've told you why!" She feels unheard and her feelings invalidated.

Does that make sense?

Well, I better get. Where I live, it's not as late as the time says here, but it is late. I will try to reply more to some of the other things about forgiveness, etc. Please try to get some of those books I mentioned. You need to fill your mind with such things so that you can fight the bitterness, hurt, and anger with truth.

Faith, read Proverbs and please look at the ones below and consider them.

When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise. (10:19)

(this one kinda scares me because I tend to post an awfully lot of words! I also edit alot of my unwise words and reflect on what I say, examining if its wise and not foolish)

A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue. (11:12)

Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (12:18)

He who guards his lips guards his life, but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin. (13:3)

Gossip separates close friends. (16:28)--

Faith, I know others will probably disagree, but is it possible that when you continuously go into great details of your husband's actions, etc... you are really only gossiping? Could you not just say: "I am hurting" and "My husband's actions caused me to feel very angry and hurt today. I need prayer" rather than to describe all the "wretched" things he's done. It never fails that when you do, there is always comments that are very derogatory and judgemental of him like, but no wonder. That is what happens when we gossip. We share things about people to which other people then judge, usually with condemnation. Yes?

A man of knowledge uses words with restraint... (17:27)

Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. (17:28)

A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control. (29:11)

Ah... that whole "venting" issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

There's more, but I hope you will really read these and think upon them and consider them. Women especially seem to have a hard time with our tongues. The Bible says that the tongue is nearly impossible to control and our words can spread like a wildfire, causing destruction. Or, on the other hand, our words can bring healing, peace, and blessing.

Are you experiencing those things: healing, peace, and blessing, as a result of the words you've spoken re: your husband and daughter? Is it truly helping your situation to "vent" and to share details about your husband's wrongdoings? As I see it, it has not only alienated your daughter, but it has also angered/embittered your husband, perhaps moreso than he'd be if you didn't say those things to others. Also, it has caused judgement towards you in that people are saying things like: "Get the popcorn, this is entertainment" and other things indicating that they think this is Jerry Springer like. That can't possibly bring you peace of mind and joy.

Try to ask yourself those things and pray about how and to whom you should share and what you should share. Faith, I have shared very little with only a very few trusted people... and mostly only to people who don't judge my husband in response. I have shared only a few very brief things here about my husband or others. And yet,I am healing (it's been 1 1/2 years since my divorce). I definitely still grieve and hurt at times. And usually, I express it alone with the Lord in the quietness of my room... with weeping and desperate prayers. But I always know that tomorrow is a new day and that if I just keep trusting the Lord, He will get me through each one, one at a time.

But my main point is is that a person can heal and can grow and get through pain and hardship and brokeness even without venting and/or sharing alot. Those things are not necessary for healing and I think sometimes, they can prevent and prolong healing because they keep us in a state of anger/bitterness. Yes, I have "vented" a time or two, privately to a few trusted friends... and like I said, they are ones that I know won't come back with: "You're husband's a creep." I don't like to hear judgements about him or anyone, and so I don't share with those who I know will judge and when I have in the past, I've regretted it (and kinda learned my lesson that way).

Anyways, I just share this to help you to see that you can get through this with a quiet heart. God can quiet your heart. You are in turmoil right now... not peace. You need to confess any of your own sins and forgive the sins of others... even if they don't deserve it. Forgive simply because God commands it. "Forgive as I have forgiven you." Obey Him knowing that there is a reward in doing so and there is blessing and peace of mind in doing so. Have faith that your obedience will bring healing and peace.

Be still before Him. Don't fret over your husband's actions. Pray about them. Pray for him. Have whatever boundaries you need to have. Confront if needed (in love) and distance yourself if needed. But if you pray for him ("Pray for your enemies") and pray about him, God will help you by giving you wisdom, strength, and much more.

I know it is hard. I know. You have love for him and healing seems like it will never come. I know... I have actually asked the Lord to take my home at times when the pain feels so great that I don't think I can live this life with it. There are times of missing my husband so much that my heart feels so utterly broken, times I've cried so hard, I honestly thought I'd have a heart attack or something. Times when my thoughts torment me and I ask God to take away my memories because it hurts too much to remember and to know how things are now.

There is no easy way out of any of it. Some people assume that by now, I'm just peachy. Or some think I should be. But healing is something that shouldn't be rushed and everyone goes through things differently. Like I said, I don't talk to alot of people about it... only a few close friends who I will share when I am struggling. I still have dreams occasionally in which he is in them.

God can help you through this but if you are not obeying Him, you're going to make things harder and worse for yourself. I've done that too.... made things more miserable because not only was I grieving but I wasn't turning to God or I was not obeying Him, and thus, well... I was doubly unhappy.

Even things like self-pity. You know, self-pity is a sin. Worry is a sin. Gossip is a sin. We can't continue these sins w/o confessing them if we want to experience peace and joy in our lives. I say this as an expert in committing these sins! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, here I am writing a novel. I've got to go. You will get through this. So will your daughter. Pray for each other. Love each other. Remember that "love covers a multitude of sins." I think the only way we can get by in this life without strangling everyone we know is by loving and forgiving... because everyone is pretty much a knucklehead at one time or another and everyone does things that irk us or offend us, etc. But when we have love, we can bear with those things, forgive those things, and the love covers the sin.

Faith, did you or have you checked out www.restorem.org ? Please try to go there, read some, and tell me your thoughts. Don't be afraid of what others think. But what are you honest thoughts about you, your husband, and reconciliation?

Yes, I am in pain. During the affair I felt deep pain with lies, deceit, and cheating. I feel at times when is the next attack.

I pain for the love of my family. For all my children to find happiness and to have a family that doesn't argue and fight. I did things during this affair that were awful, horrible. This is not an excuse, I was hurting deeply for my ex, he tore my heart in half and let me bleed. The man that I trusted, which I could not trust anymore in anyway. For I became like a spy, wondering what was going to be the next betrayal.

The relationship with my children, I do want. I will state that I do feel my children are unable to think clearly and their hearts are hurting probably more so than the ex or my heart. This is a honest feeling that causes deep sorrow and hurt.

The no contact is a good way to prevent attacks and prevent the triggers. So this will stay instituted until the end of the month and we will see how things are.

There is more that I would like to post. For time is short right now, and I need to get homework done and 2 papers typed for next week. This coming week is exam week, and school is very important to my future.

Looking at the posts, will happen, have to be put after my schooling and a possible job opportunity tomorrow. Will see if I can make a little money. But I promise to print a few posts and do the highlighting this week.

I am reading a book that goes back to your childhood. Will hope to finish this book maybe next weekend, or the following week. This is interesting and to see how you brought some of your childhood actions into your adult life. I do know that I have made mistakes, I am not afraid to admit that.

I will be back. Have to work on one paper tonight, and get a good start on it. Talk later when more time can be spent here.