I am recently divorced as of March 12, 2004. We were together for 13 years. Lived together for about 7 and were married the last 5.

She filed for divorce last year, because I wouldn't go to counseling. I didn't feel that she ever listened to me. She thought that I was distant and cheating. We began going to counseling while the divorce was continuing. We went to counseling for about 2 months together, and she went about a month by herself. I didn't think that it was working, but I continued to go. I wanted to drop the divorce to work on the marriage, but she wanted to work on it while it went through.

A month before the divorce, she dropped her claim. I was so troubled by the trouble and money spent on everything that I wanted to take time to think things through. She confronted me about not dropping it. Needless to say the divorce went through. We have two daughters.

I am confused about the divorce, and I don't know why we got divorced. Things weren't horrible, but she was depressed and I was stressed. I still love her and I want her back. I believe that she still wants me, but she won't acknowledge it. She feels hurt by me. I just wanted the romance restored to our relationship, but she was happy. The counselor didn't really help. She felt that we should just go out more together. I tried to get my wife to read 'His Needs, Her Needs' during counseling, but she didn't feel it was necessary.

I still love and want her back. Is this normal? Should I move on? If we still love each other, how should I go about getting back with her and restoring my family??? I think the biggest trouble in our relationship was the lack of communication. We feared rejection from one another, and we only confronted each other when we were angry. We have had a lot of bad times, but we have had a lot of very good times. I constantly miss and think about her. I go through periods of depression since the divorce. She thinks that I should get on medication, because she is and she feels its helped her. I want her back, but I am lost as how to win or get her back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost_Gemini:
<strong> I still love and want her back. Is this normal? Should I move on? If we still love each other, how should I go about getting back with her and restoring my family??? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, Gem,

First, I'd like to welcome you here. There's really NO better place to find all the answers to the types of ??s you are asking.

I'd like to address some of your questions now. Pretty much, I'm where you are.........H wanted Div. b/c "he wasn't happy........" - and yet 2 yrs after div. whenever I talk to him, I still don't think he sounds all that happy. In our case, there was infidelity, tho, so that was a factor. OW is gone now, so it is no longer an issue.

However,I always believed we could rebuild our M one day. I am hopeful that will happen, as the lines of communication re-open, and since I have learned NEW, IMPROVED ways of communicating and asking for what I need, as well as recognizing what EN's of my H's I did not meet while we were M'd.

It would be good for you to read all about EN's, and seek to MEET HER EN's while you are still apart. Remember when you were first dating? First got together? Remember how you couldn't wait to do nice things for her? See, we forget all that stuff, and then the lines of communication break down, cause we are both harboring resentment or anger........

Maybe you didn't out-and-out fight, we didn't. But we were still both very angry at each other a lot of the time, cause we were frustrated the other didn't "hear" what we were saying, wanting. I'll bet you were in the same boat.

Right now, she's probably feeling very unsure of your ability to make her happy. Since she was willing to div you over it before.........the VERY BEST thing you can do now is be loving to her, do all you can to show your love to her, pretend you are still in that "dating phase......." to show her you can be the loving, caring, kind H she deserves!! If you have read HisNeeds, Her Needs, then you know what you need to do! This might win back her "trust" in you afer awhile.

Another good book might be The Five Love Languages. I don't remember the author right now......it has been recommended by several on this board. I have a copy, have read it and found it very easy to read. You might even try asking your W to read so she can tell you what her love language is, so you can do that for her.......... See, try to include her in the process, and let her know you are willing to do these things for HER It might break down some of the walls she has built up.

If you can swing it, counsel with one of the Harley's. They do this stuff (RE-building M's) all the time, and they might be more helpful than a counselor who doesn't specifically specialize in only marriages. Yes, they WILL work with just you if your W isn't willing to talk to them. I'd be willing to bet she WILL get interested after a time, IF you are following their advice!!

I wish you well, and I certainly hope this goes will for you. I have been hoping for this kind of chance to make things right for almost 3 years.

Thank you lupolady for the reply. I think that it is wonderful that you are a woman, so that you can help me view things from another perspective.

How would you suggest I proceed? She wants to remain good friends, because we have children. We have also been talking on the phone about once a week as friends. She says that I can get the kids anytime that I want.

We are going to a Prince concert together this weekend. She still shows interest in my family, and she is open to doing things for my family. I asked her if she thought that we would ever get back together, and she replied no not the way she feels now. I don't believe her. I don't believe that I am the only one with these feelings. I think that she tries not to call me on purpose.

Should I court her again by sending flowers and calling her more often. I guess I seek some type of sign that she still loves and has interest in me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost_Gemini:
<strong>We have also been talking on the phone about once a week as friends. She says that I can get the kids anytime that I want.

We are going to a Prince concert together this weekend. She still shows interest in my family, and she is open to doing things for my family. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gemini,
These are all good things!! See, she still wants a certain level of "involvement" between you. GOOD!!!

During these times, PLAN A her!!! If you do not know about Plan A, read all about it on the Concpets Pages found through the links above. Plan A is basically a Plan that can be used to separate the WS from the OP......but in your case, it will be used to show your W that YOU HAVE CHANGED INTO THE KIND OF MAN SHE COULD LOVE AGAIN.......... A man who wants to meet her EN's and love her more deeply than anyone else on this earth. That will win her over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I asked her if she thought that we would ever get back together, and she replied no not the way she feels now. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, first of all, NO MORE "asking" her about getting back together.........she feels pressured by this kind of talk. Better to just SHOW HER YOUR LOVE for her, and let her slowly fall back in love with you!!!Let me add that this is extremely difficult for a woman to do once she has been hurt at this level. You are going to have work extra hard to PROVE to her that you love her this much. She has shut herself off from you on some levels......read the Concepts pages for the stages of Intimacy as well. This will explain how we go from the "intimacy" stage (honeymoon period), to just existing, to a more distant stage, "Conflict" - where a lot of fighting occurs. Still "feelings" there, though.

Once she got to the final stage, the "withdrawal" stage, it is difficult, and takes a long time to get back to the stage of "caring" anymore. This is where your W is at. She is protecting herself from any further hurt. Understandable. NO ONE wants to "hurt" in a relationship.........better to be away from the source of the hurt. Right now, YOU are the "source of her hurt." It will take time before she is willing to try to approach the source of her hurt again.

That seems like such bad news. THE GOOD NEWS is that she IS willing!!! You are going to a concert together.........she is willing to let you see the kids as often as possible.........she is willing to talk on the phone to you.


<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
OK, well, I hope you didn't tell her this, cause it's a Disrespectful Judgment. You do not have the right to tell her what she believes. That disrespects her and tells her that YOU DO NOT TRUST HER OPINIONS.


Now, knowing all these things, here's the plan of action: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
1) NO MORE talking about if she is open to getting together again..........leave it alone for awhile. Just "be her friend" for now. Let her enjoy just being around you, talking to you.

2) BE THE BEST DAD YOU CAN BE Love those children with all you've got. Even independent of your feelings for her. Let her see you doing fun things with the kids, but I wouldn't always ask her to join in.........keep a little mystery about what you and the kids do.
But not TOO much mystery........if you go someplace special (a Happy Meal at McD), bring her home a sundae!

See, Gem, women LOVE men who love their children!!!!! It just warms us all over to know that a father will always take his fathering role seriously, no matter what happens with our relationship...........this will give her good feelings for you.

3) Continue to show her your love in NON-threatening ways to her. Always be willing to do whatever she needs you to. Always respect her wishes, even if she says she doesn't want to talk to you for a time. If that happens, whenever you have to call to arrange to see the kids, be polite, respectful - but NOT "pushy." Just be there for your kids, and leave her to herself until she heals a little more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Should I court her again by sending flowers and calling her more often. I guess I seek some type of sign that she still loves and has interest in me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she is feeling "trapped," "pressured" by your sending flowers, calling, etc. then NO!! DON'T do it!!! I think for now, a little "sign" once every other week or so is enough. Maybe just a little card saying, "Thanks for being a great mother to the kids....." OR "I was thinking of you when I found this terrific card...." type of thing. NOT TOO MUCH. NOT TOO OFTEN.

Brother, you have LOTS of "signs" of her continued interest!! Just the fact that she is so willing to continue a dialog, or go to a concert with you. BELIEVE ME!! I should know. I don't have these things with my H right now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Keep reading, learning from this site. It is a WELL-SPRING of great info for "fixing" and mainaining marriages!

God Bless,

<small>[ April 13, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

I didn't tell her that I believed that she still loved me. That would be suicide if you new her!!! Although our divorce is new and we really didn't want it, I just pick up little signs from her. Like she asks me to watch my littlest one at her home. Last week she asked me to go to a cheerleading meeting for our oldest daughter. Later that evening she hugged me and cried in my arms regarding the stress of a business venture she was undertaking. We hugged for a minute or two and she wouldn't let go right away.

It is harder for me, because I am alone. I admit that my weekends with the kids helps tremendously, but I do miss her alot. She thinks that I am the greatest father, but the greatest husband is a different story for her.

I try not to call the house, because I don't want to seem anxious. I feel that she is doing the same, because she called me more when I first moved out. Now she only calls to return my call. Although I have shared parenting which allows me to see the kids, how can I see her more to keep myself in her memories??? Our parents think that we are both stubborn. I just want to prove to her that I can make her happy, which she claims that she used to be. I just worry about her attempting to make or see me happy. I am more unhappy now that we're apart. All I wanted from her was to strengthen the romance between us. We have been through a lot over the 13 years with my first daughter being 10 weeks premature, and my second daughter having problems. Without going in details, there has been tremendous stress in our lives since we have met. As the kids are getting older, I just wanted to renew our romance. She was happy being cheerleading mom and mom period.

Sorry, but I am still confused. I will follow your advice though.

She says the children miss me and love being at my new place.

Wow, you've been through a lot. I hope you can continue your relationship with your ex and maybe restore your love.

If you keep working on yourself and learning the Harley methods, the worst that can happen is that you become a better person. Read up on Plan A. You can fill up her love bank. Don't keep a watch on the balance though; let it build up interest on its own and it will grow.

"Move on"? Does that mean dating other women? Not if you want to win your wife back. It would only tangle up the works.

If "move on" means spending time on classes to improve your business skills or exercising to improve your health, yes. If it means getting involved with your church or temple, expanding your spirit, yes. Finding a group of men who play sports and joining a team, yes. Doing things with your daughters, yes.

Yes Bellevue, I mean move on by pursuing another relationship. I admit that I haven't been open to allowing another woman close to me emotionally. Even if I was to give myself physically, I know that I would want my ex back. I don't want to hurt anymore people. I'm afraid that my ex will move on to another man, while I sit twiddling my thumbs.

I just want my family back!!! My parents were divorced, and I never knew my real father. I think that I just have a strong family mindset. Typically divorce means that you are done for good with that person, and I just wonder if that is how I should look at it. I get better with the weather, but I still love this woman very much. I am willing to forgo my happiness for hers, but she has a hard time believing that love. She always felt that I was unhappy, but I am more unhappy now.

She is my life! She is like family. I thought that we were incompatible, but I realize that I lost a 13 year friend. I miss her more than I have ever missed anyone...

From a woman's point of view, do you think that she is consciously looking for another man???

I am concerned sometimes that her feelings don't resemble mine. She has always been faithful to me, although I would sometimes have wild thoughts. She has never shown any interest in anyone else. So from a woman's perspective that has been married, do you think that she is desirous of another man? Our divorce is still fresh, but she wanted to work on the marriage longer.

Bellevue,

I don't know if its appropriate or not to ask, but you wouldn't by chance be in a midwestern city would you? I live in a city by the same name. If this is inappropriate excuse the post.

Nope, not inappropriate, and nope, not living in the Midwest.
Bellevue was the name of a hospital in NYC that had a mental ward for the way round the bend folks. From D-day on for quite awhile, i felt like I'd lost my mind.

Originally posted by Lost_Gemini:

From a woman's point of view, do you think that she is consciously looking for another man???

I wouldn't think so. But that's not important. What IS important is what you do from here on.

Be an excellent father. Better than you've been, and I believe that you have been a great one. Plan ahead for your time with your daughters, plan things that you know they enjoy doing. And participate in the activities with them, being active, not passive, don't just chat on your cell phone or read the newspaper.

YOU be the "other man" who she will be interested in. Be a good friend for now. If you have any bad or irrating habits, list them for yourself, and work on breaking them one by one.

If you were habitually late, always arrive promptly to pick the kids up.

If you were sloppy, be sure to clean out your car and have it gassed up before you pick the kids up.

Contrariwise, if you were an uptight, obsessive neatnick, and that was a problem between you, be aware how you can change that.

If you've been unable to control your emotion and catch yourself in the mirror with a "sad sack" expression on your face, practice smiling.

Picking up the kids is what I'm focussing on because that's when you'll probably cross paths.


She wanted to work on the marriage longer? She's always been faithful? And you have kids together?

From a woman's perspective, I'd be hopeful. Like I said, Plan A. Read it and reread it. Invest time in it. And be patient. You're planting seeds toward the future of your family. It's worth it.

Stick to Plan A, and counsel with the Harleys, that makes sense since you're on the MB site. Oh, and sublimate your "wild thoughts" and use that energy toward something constructive. You don't need other women in your life right now, muddying the waters.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ April 14, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

It sounds like you know me. My problem has been that I think way too much. I am a software developer by trade, thus I analyze everything. She calls me anal-retentive, which drives her nuts. I try not to be, but I am very demanding on everyone around me including myself.

I have read Plan A, but I don't know how that pertains to me. There is no other person in the picture. I will read it over and over, and try to apply it to myself. I also plan to contact Dr. Harley, because I would do anything for this woman. She has always stood beside me, even through my crazy attitudes and shutdowns. She takes it all so personally, which makes me feel bad. I don't like her to hurt, but I have problems controlling my frustrations. I don't hit her, yell at her, or criticize or call her out of her name. I just clam up and don't talk when I am angry or stressed. I should have been talking to her all along, but I didn't allow her totally into my life. Hopefully I can change all that in the future. I will take everyone's advice. I just hope that someday she will undertake all this relationship learning and building with me. Thanks.

Dear Lost Gemini,

Well, it sounds like you're a guy who's lost in his head. Intellectualizing, planning, detail-oriented, and really uncomfortable around recognizing and expressing feelings.

I'm no shrink, but here's my idea: For you, Plan A could be the time when you find a legitimate psychotherapist to coach you toward the whole feelings thing. Maybe a mens group. I don't know if there exists a discipline in psychotherapy where the use of role plays exists, but if there does, you could acquire skills and tools. And with your skills and tools, you could chip away at the iceberg that your marriage became.

I said legitimate because there are some cults and "new age" churches and groups out there with unlicensed folks messing around with the psyches of vulnerable people.

Another thought: I was wondering what form the "working on the marriage" you had in mind would have taken. Did you have a plan? Like Harley's 15 minutes a day of quality time with each other? Like date night once a week?

Maybe your wife feels you are too "programmed" and regimented. Maybe she saw an inflexible mold that she was not willing to be forced into. I don't know, I'm just rambling.

If a mens group and therapy to loosen you up are useful, then the divorce could be the best thing that has happened to both of you. Your Plan A could be the work you do on yourself, to become a more accessible partner, lover and husband.

But if you do therapy, I think the biggest challenge would be the expectation of reconciling and remarrying. If it doesn't happen like you anticipate, disappointment and anger could be your enemies. Disappointment and anger could cause you to REACT, and to reject all the progress you made in your therapy, and snap back even further to your old methods.

Another guess: that your wife has not rejected your essential, core self. That she simply gave up trying to reach it.

Now, go to the Plan A section and absorb whatever is there to apply to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, it sounds like you're a guy who's lost in his head. Intellectualizing, planning, detail-oriented, and really uncomfortable around recognizing and expressing feelings.
I expressed my feelings with her and the children quite freely by touching, hugging, and kissing. I was just sometimes inflexible. Her biggest problem was my not talking when I was upset, because she didn't know if she was the source. Sometimes she was and somtimes it was the stress of work.

Another thought: I was wondering what form the "working on the marriage" you had in mind would have taken. Did you have a plan? Like Harley's 15 minutes a day of quality time with each other? Like date night once a week?
We wasted time in therapy going over the same things it seemed like each week. It was more of a mediation session while she/I talked about our feelings. The counselor also basically suggested that we learn to cope with each other's differences. Back in October, she approached me about the counseling not working. I confronted the counselor, who I liked, but she didn't really back me up. I suggested Dr. Harley's books and methods from the site I had stumbled across, but she looked at it as me just recycling what was in some book. I take it as she is just programmed to think that you get counseling in person and not from a book. I wish she would have read it, because I think that it would have helped. I took her refusal as her not really being determined to succeed in the marriage.

I am actually going to be counseling alone with the Harley's to see how it all works out. Maybe she will join in later hopefully. I also plan to seek out advice from the Pastor of the church that she belongs to. He's an excellent guy. I actually contacted him before, but I chickened out. I realize now that I would do anything for her, which I thinks proves that I love her dearly.
I will also make a list of my problems and work on them.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Meanwhile, we still continue to talk after I drop off the kids. We continue to hug affectionately followed by an innocent lip-peck. We also continue to do little things for each other. With her new business venture, she has even informed me of the possibility of having my babysitter cousin move in to help with the kids. This is something we considered when we were married.

My goal is to do everything in my power to restore my family, and I plan to use the time as separation for us both to work out our personal issues. We both are good-people, which anyone would tell you. We just haven't been great to each other all the time. I think that we both recognize our qualities deep-down, and that is why we remained together so long.

Hmmm, I just re-read this thread, and lupolady said what I said, only better. So you've got two cyber-buddies in your booster club.

Okay, inflexibility seems to be your real challenge. Why not concentrate on being flexible, just that one thing, for a week? Make a list of events or incidents that you remember triggering that response, for starters.

Then, make a list next to those items of the thing your wife or kids wanted to do instead of what you had in mind. (Example: if it was a film you were going to, and the issue was which theater to attend, or what time to see the film, or even whether to switch movies at the multiplex once you learned that your choice was sold out)

Then ponder on that one thing. Would it really matter as far as which theater, time of howing, or which film?

If the problem was political point of view: Did you respect your wife's preferred candidate or did you act superior, condescending, say things like "What you don't understand is ....."

In the bedroom, was it an issue if she didn't climax during sex? Was it an issue if - whatever?

On choice of church, (You said you wanted to talk to her Pastor) did you go to a different church? Would you consider going with her to church? That can be a wonderful glue for a family.

The toilet paper roll: Is there a "right" way to change the roll? (I'm not being silly. My H insists that the paper must come down over the top of the roll, and I simply want paper available next to the toilet.) I do it his way because HE cares and I don't.

Just fishing. And gotta say, I think there's hope for you two.

make a list next to those items of the thing your wife or kids wanted to do instead of what you had in mind.

My kids aren't the problem, since they typically get to do the things that they want. The issue is more of me not wanting to do the things that she wants. We pretty much lived separate lives when we were together. We did do some things together, but apparently not enough

On choice of church, (You said you wanted to talk to her Pastor) did you go to a different church? Would you consider going with her to church?

We did have different churches. She began going to a Lutheran church. She wanted me to go with her more often, but I refused. I didn't feel comfortable in the church, and I didn't like the Lutheran label. I don't believe in labels, and I attended a non-demonination church. I grew up Baptist, and became non-denomination. She grew up Lutheran. I would go when she asked for special things like holidays, but I wouldn't attend all the little special events they had. Using the time that I have had, I realized that I can get through discomfort for her. I realize that I would do anything for her, but now it may be too late.

Just fishing. And gotta say, I think there's hope for you two.

I wished that she felt the same way. I think that she still loves me and wants to be together, but she is so withdrawn I feel I will never have a chance to repair my family. I'm afraid that she has given up on us, and she will fight any chance at reconciliation. We are both stubborn, and we both struggle with power going back and forth. She had the power, then I, now her. It goes back and forth. I want to stop struggling and just love her.

By the way: I like the paper coming down from over the top of the roll also.

The only problem that we had sexually was that I wanted it at least twice a week, and she was fine with once a month. I had problems with always being the aggressor. I wanted her to to be on offense more frequently than a couple times a year. When I stopped chasing, then she would accuse me of being unfaithful. Overall the intimacy was okay, although it could have been better and more passionate.

I think that I am going to give up. We went to the concert, and we both had a great time together. She danced and screamed, which I don't recall her doing the first time we saw Prince back in 2002. When I arrived to pick her up, I brought her a little rose. She appreciated it and said thank you. She said that she hadn't eaten all day, thus she ate two pastries and drank some coffee. She asked me to join her in the garage while she had a cigarette. She knows that I hate her smoking, which is probably the only bad habit that irritated me. I told her the day before that I would pick her up at 5:45pm, since the concert was at 8pm. We had about an hour drive to Cleveland, and I felt this would give us time to relax once we parked. I arrived about 5 min till 6 and she was ready, but she could have had her cigarette, coffee, and pastry before I got there. After all I was the one witht he kids this weekend. We sat in the garage while she smoked her cigarette and sipped coffee. She showed me her color patterns for her coffee shop venture.

We got on the road about 6:15pm. We had good conversation in the car. We got something to eat at the arena prior to the start of the concert. When we parked and walked into the arena, she bumped and walked close to me. I was kind of walking apart in front of her, because I didn't want to give the wrong impression. When she walked close to me as she did, I placed my arm around her. Things were going great to this point. During the concert she seemed to be trying to stay away from me, which I found confusing. Did I imagine all the contact that she made before the start of the concert???

After the concert, we went to the car. She wanted to walk the stairs from the outside, because she said that she was claustrophobic with all the people in the elevators. What she really wanted was to smoke another cigarette! We got to the car, and I kissed her to thank her. I wanted to kiss her romantically but she refused, and she stated that we were just friends.

When I dropped her off about midnight, I wanted to talk to her. I was feeling emotional and wanted some answers, but she turned into the cold, cruel person towards me that I was used to in our marriage. I just wanted to communicate with her openly and honestly. She claimed that she was at peace with me gone, and she didn't want to go down that road. Peace? When I would come home, I would interact with my children and relax in another room away from her. I didn't argue with her. I didn't complain to her. I just minded my own business. What peace is she talking about??? I was the peaceful one while she talked on the phone or was screaming and yelling at the kids or me.

During our argument, she claimed that she got off the emotional rollercoaster. I left with both of us enraged. I felt low again, thus I called her about 4 or 5 times once I returned home, but she kept talking about how I had a problem. She had to go to bed so bad and couldn't talk to me, but she had time to call her girlfriend about me I am sure. I let the phone ring about 50 times before she finally answered, because she was on the phone talking to her girlfriend. I thought that it was so late to talk??? That's how it has always been. I always took second chair to everyone else. She once again has the power, but I am done supplying her with the fuel for that power.

She has numbed me once again with her cold behavior, and I have decided to stop giving in to what I feel she always wants. I am going to Plan B, because I don't feel that she will ever change to what I need. I am giving up hope. I have always been there for her, and our problems aren't totally my fault. I should have listened to my friend, but it turns out that he was right. She likes to place the blame solely on me, but I am done accepting all the blame. Years prior to our problems when she was supposedly happy, I was lonely in the relationship and I tried to communicate that to her. She was always doing for others and taking me for granted, when all I ever asked for was to be more romantically closer to my wife. I was severly missing the companionship of that person that was supposed to love me. Now I am done!!! I don't want to be her friend, and I need to make myself happy and put her out of my life. I am not a bad person, but I am in so much pain and agony around her. I had an appointment with one of the Harley's, which I think that I will cancel. Without her there is nothing wrong with me. I get along great with people, and she is the only relationship that I had a problem with. I think our personalities are contradicting to each other, and I must just let her go and move on. I love her dearly, but I won't be the scapegoat for our failures! I won't continue to suffer at her hands!!! I won't keep being putty in her hands!!! I need to be strong, speak my mind, and relay how I feel about things she asks for. I can be cold and cruel like her if not worse! If she doesn't care, then I don't and won't... I don't think that she ever cared or loved me, otherwise she would have ensured my happiness. I am done!!!! This foolish person that I have been must die, and I must be reborn with a new life...

Lost_Gemini, I'm editing/finishing this post to you. Yesterday while working on it, I was interrupted and had to post quickly, now I'm back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost_Gemini:
<strong> I think that I am going to give up.

So soon?

She knows that I hate her smoking, which is probably the only bad habit that irritated me.

Has she always smoked?

We sat in the garage while she smoked her cigarette and sipped coffee. She showed me her color patterns for her coffee shop venture.
So far so good. You shared a pleasant moment.
I placed my arm around her. Things were going great to this point. During the concert she seemed to be trying to stay away from me, which I found confusing. Did I imagine all the contact that she made before the start of the concert???
She's conflicted. Maybe she didn't want to give you the wrong impression either.

After the concert, we went to the car. ... What she really wanted was to smoke another cigarette!

Which irritates you.

We got to the car, and I kissed her to thank her. I wanted to kiss her romantically but she refused, and she stated that we were just friends.

Moving too fast, Gemini. Yeah, I know she's your wife, you want her, but you aren't going to rebuild instantly.

When I dropped her off about midnight, I wanted to talk to her. I was feeling emotional and wanted some answers, but she turned into the cold, cruel person towards me that I was used to in our marriage. I just wanted to communicate with her openly and honestly.

About midnight, man I don't know about HER body clock, but at midnight my brain doesn't work very well.

You were feeling emotional ... you wanted some answers .... LostGemini, did you push her (emotionally)? Can you remember the questions you wanted answered? Here's my perception: Your questions were seen as demands. It was too much, too soon. Demands, accusations, indictments. Yeah, you were feeling emotional. Insisting on having a heavy conversation right then and there pushed her farther away rather than bringing her closer.

You need to be smart. You're too close to the matter to do this on your own. Back off, way, way off. You're suffocating her.

That's why I suggested a men's group, with a counselor who believes in saving marriages. With role plays, so you can learn the right way to communicate.

I'm going to share something with you. It's about the most damaging relationship I ever had, over 20 years ago. The guy used to insist on closeness, openness, intimacy. He browbeat me to talk to him. He was critical of little things about my appearance, my mannerisms. He would phone me at work and demand to go over something that had happened that morning, before work, or the night before. It wouldn't matter that I had a deadline, that I hadn't had even a 5 minute window to go to the bathroom, or that I had to skip lunch, and was juggling the demands of 2 bosses. HE NEEDED to hash out an issue, a phrase I had used in an earlier conversation, or a feeling he was having. It wasn't good enough that we make a date that night to sit and talk the matter over. It had to be when he called my office phone.

I felt attacked, harassed, hounded.

I'm not saying you are doing this. Maybe you aren't. But one of the happiest days of the whole affair with this guy was the night he broke up with me after dinner at a fancy restaurant (that I paid for.) After the breakup, when I was driving home from his apartment, I began singing, happy and light.

Yeah, he broke up with me. Because I was cold, selfish, cruel. Because I would accept a collect call from him late at night after he'd moved 1-1/2 hours away, a call to talk over our "relationship" which would come in at 11:30 at night. The attacks, accusations, complaints, would have to be dealt with.

I don't want to hijack your thread with this horror story of a bad relationship that I was lucky enough to be thrown out of.

But - here's the hysterical part. Two weeks after the guy broke off with me, I got new bedclothes, donated the old ones to Salvation Army, and got rid of all the memories of our hours in bed. I turned the mattress over, and between the box spring and the mattress were porn magazines - of BOYS. This creep was laying at home, with nothing to do (He'd lost his job and I was supporting him with my high stress job) and jerking off to homosexual images. While wearing my expensive underwear. No, I'm not making this up.

She claimed that she was at peace with me gone, and she didn't want to go down that road.

Okay, maybe you hadn't provoked her feeling of not being at peace. I wasn't there to witness. Maybe it's all in her mind.

During our argument, she claimed that she got off the emotional rollercoaster. I left with both of us enraged. I felt low again, thus I called her about 4 or 5 times once I returned home, but she kept talking about how I had a problem.

No, no, no. Calling 4 or 5 times was way uncool. She saw this as pushing. So would I. She had just told you she was off the emotional rollercoaster. you need to let her BE, let her breathe.

She had to go to bed so bad and couldn't talk to me, but she had time to call her girlfriend about me I am sure. I let the phone ring about 50 times before she finally answered, because she was on the phone talking to her girlfriend.

Go back and read that paragraph with a detatched point of view. You let the phone ring 50 times? Pushing, suffocation, insistence. Why does tightening your grip on the woman who wants to be let go help bring her closer to you?

She has numbed me once again with her cold behavior, and I have decided to stop giving in to what I feel she always wants. I am going to Plan B, because I don't feel that she will ever change to what I need.

LostGemini, neither one of you is going to willingly change to what the other needs. And you can't do this on your own. Please don't cancel with the Harleys. They know this discipline inside and out.

I had an appointment with one of the Harley's, which I think that I will cancel.
Please reconsider; see above.

Without her there is nothing wrong with me. I get along great with people, and she is the only relationship that I had a problem with.

Maybe. Maybe not. If she's the only relationship you had a problem with, maybe that's because it's the only intimate relationship you had. It's easier to be polite to non-intimates.

I think our personalities are contradicting to each other, and I must just let her go and move on. I love her dearly, but I won't be the scapegoat for our failures! I won't continue to suffer at her hands!!! I won't keep being putty in her hands!!! I need to be strong, speak my mind, and relay how I feel about things she asks for. I can be cold and cruel like her if not worse! If she doesn't care, then I don't and won't... I don't think that she ever cared or loved me, otherwise she would have ensured my happiness. I am done!!!! This foolish person that I have been must die, and I must be reborn with a new life... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lost Gemini, more storeis from my life, wake up, hon, I'm talking and I can't shut up. My aunt and uncle had a n enviable marriage. We were very close to each other. When I got married I asked my uncle how they had managed to continue being so close. He told me that whenever my aunt said she wanted to do something, buy something, change something, he would not argue. He would say "Sure, sounds great." Later on she would say she'd changed her mind, thought it over. Now, before you say he was a wimp, putty, etc., let me tell you he fought in WWII in the Pacific Arena and in Korea. He was injured but never reported injuries because he didn't want his wife to worry about him. When she became crippled from arthritis, he did all the housework, cooking, etc. When she got Alzheimer's, he refused to put her in a home. When she died, he continued giving to all of us of his spirit and his heart and wisdom and advice. When he got cancer, he was the one who strengthened all of his caretakers. And when the boys next door played hockey in the driveway and swore and he was in his own yard, he would say "Don't use that kind of language around me." And they LISTENED. He never cussed. He always spoke up for himself straight out. And he never gave up. He was our hero. I think you can be a hero too. Don't give up. Just back off for now. Plan B sounds good.

<small>[ April 21, 2004, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

She smoked when I met her, but she knew how much it irritated me. She also knew that I would never marry a smoker. Supposedly she stopped smoking when she was pregnant with my first daughter. After my daughter was born, she would smoke when I wasn't around. She got on the patch and she quit smoking with the encouragement from me back in the mid-90s. I was never so proud of her. She later picked it back up at some point in time. I think that one of her girlfriends was the major problem, which she kind of mentioned to me also. Her girlfriend smokes, and she would try to avoid her because that would cause her to smoke. This is the only girlfriend of hers that smokes. Incidentally, this girlfriend's father just died of lung cancer from smoking all his life. The guy was either in his late 50s or early 60s.

Somewhere, I don't know where, she picked it back up. I was heart-broken when I would smell smoke in the garage or on her clothes back in 2002. I asked her about it, but she outright lied to me. I then came home for lunch one day and busted her to which she tried to lie again. I asked to smell her breath, and that is when everything came to pass.

I did consult with Jennifer, who I was told was the daughter of Dr. Harley. She gave some very good information, and it was very informative. It also made me realize that I wasted my money on the counselor that we were seeing locally. I am considering her suggestions, such as writing a letter. I actually considered this prior. I just need to decide if this is what I want to do. She's not educating herself or attempting to put anything back together... Maybe life will be better for me away from her. Decisions, decisions!!!

Thanks again Bellevue. You sound like a psychologist. You have given me a tremendous amount of insight. I guess I have been demanding and pressuring. She has told me that I didn't really want her, because she has too many habits that irritate me. She has been my only intimate relationship. My past is filled with women that I didn't really care about. When I met her, she was college educated and working in a nice career. She also didn't always give me what I wanted, which I sadisticly was attracted to for some reason.

I still love her, but I don't want to be a fool. I am very confused right now. I have backed off and I only see or talk to her when needed. I do feel much better when I don't come in contact with her. Maybe we both need this time apart??? I will let time and fate decide if we should be together or not. In the meantime, I will continue to work on myself and emotions. I don't know if I should continue consulting with the Harley's or this board if I don't know what the future holds? I don't know what to do. On one hand, I don't want to throw away something I invested 13 years in. On the other hand, I am free to pursue potential people that could make me happier than she ever wanted to make me. Now I am lost and confused!!! The one thing that I do know is that I must manage myself emotionally or I will go crazy. All this thinking is not helping. I think that I should take it day-by-day, and put her out my mind when I can.