I just wanted to share what I've come to learn about my situation with my wife. Whether or not her head is in a fog, doesn't matter. The point is she's a different person. I feel like we all use the excuse that they are just in a fog and they'll come out of it someday once they realize. Once they realize what? That your a catch, that what you had was any more different or special than what everyone else claims to have. What you might have thought was great maybe wasn't that great for her or maybe what you considered to be great doesn't come close to what greatness could be for you?

If you want to believe in anything, believe that you can make it--that life for you has found a deeper purpose without the one you loved. Instead of trying to figure out the riddle that has come between your relationship, why not just make sure that the next person you choose to be with will be better suited to who you are?

If you want to do something constructive, start by praying for your significant others--pray that they find whatever makes them happy. Because during this journey, I guarantee that each of us will find what makes us happy.

"Trust in God and he will give you strength!"

I agree!

The fog will life, don't worry. It may take a while, but the fog will lift.

As the spouse who cheated first, I recall the fog really well. It was an intense time. That was five years ago. Today, I hold nothing but contempt for the man with whom I had the affair. The bubble burst a long time ago, taking with it any semblance of a normal life for me and my family.

What will your spouse be like when the fog lifts? There are so many variables that it's difficult, if not impossible, to give you an answer.

What was your marriage like prior to the A? Have you had marriage counselling since? What was your part in the affair? Believe me, happy marriages, happy people do not fall into affairs.

I'm not taking any responsibiilty away from her actions but it takes more than one partner to stray.

Often times people will say they had no idea an affair was looming, they had no idea there was unhappiness in the marriage. I suggest to those who hold onto such illusions that you wake up and carefully examine your marriage prior to the A.

I know there is healing afterwards if both partners are willing. I know Harley's concepts work, even if they didn't for me.

When the fog lifts, you'll have a spouse who is deeply ashamed of what she's done. The pain, at least for me, was profound. But it took a long time to see and understand clearly.

Good luck,

Francis,

As a BS, did I know there were problems?

Yes, but not nearly to the degree of believing the marriage was in trouble and never EVER did I think adultery could be possible.

By the time my XW suggested marriage counseling, she was in full justification/sabotage mode. I've seen a side of her that is pure manipulation and evil. The marriage counselor we first went to was at a church. I've never been big on religion and now call myself an atheist. The marriage counselor was quite obviously on my XW's side as I was not a Christian. She would teach things like the man is always supposed to initiate sex, including playing some audiotape of someone's lecture. I hope you can understand how completely ignorant that is. As a man, I am extremely turned on by such initiation and I know that I will do whatever it takes to make it happen again. It's too bad that I can literally count on one hand the number of times my XW initiated sex. Once I told the MC that wife was seeing someone else, she utterly failed to understand the significance of it. All that she seemed capable of doing was trying to get me to become a Christian and pray. To her credit, she did introduce me to the Harley books. It's too bad she's apparently never read any of them. I quickly read two and started a third. The point is, my XW only initiated marriage counseling so that she could find fault in me and say that she "tried to work it out".

You may try to take comfort in thinking your XH knew things were wrong, but I'm doubtful you really put any effort in letting him know how you felt. I suspect that you tried to take the easy way out and hook up with OM while simultaneously hiding things from your husband, provoking him, and blaming him, leaving him in an extremely confused state.

I'm not here to excoriate you for what you did; however, I think the fog of your affair has obscured your view. I'm sure my XW looks back at how she "told" me she was unhappy. Unfortunately, she was living in an alternate universe at the time, one where lying, cheating, manipulation, and sabotage were the norms.

BTW, my XW married the OM and they go to church fairly regularly I think. My XW teaches Sunday School. The hypocrisy of some religious people astounds me.

<small>[ April 18, 2004, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: father of 1, husband of 0 ]</small>

Whoa! Why should Francis get excoriated? (great word by the way). She stated what her marriage was like, and did recommend to everyone who thinks there were never any signs that their marriage was vulnerable to an affair to wake up.

I think it’s a valid point even when infidelity has not occurred. Look around at all the posters who have told their spouses they were unhappy, the marriage had problems. Then look at all the posters who say either “I never had a clue,” or who say, “I just didn’t believe him/her. I didn’t think it was that bad.”

One of the most dangerous actions married people do is to judge the state of the marriage solely by their own feelings. Therefore, if you’re happy or content, the marriage is good or okay. And if you spouse sees problems or feels unhappy, he or she is exaggerating, over-reacting, or worrying because you know the marriage is okay.

It’s hard enough to accept that our spouse is unhappy when we are unhappy. It’s much more difficult to accept our spouse is unhappy when we ourselves are happy!

I also like the original point. Very often WSs are in an endorphin induced state of mind and may not see clearly. But, too often people will use “the fog” to describe any kind of thought process by their spouse or others that they don’t like. I have in laws described as “being in the fog.” Must be pretty interesting affair if the in laws are getting the overwhelming endorphin rush infatuation produces!

I also think there are some people who are not at all in a fog about the viability of their marriage. I think these people are having exit affairs. They don’t seem to feel the level of compunction or regret others had.

Hmmm...sounds to me to be shades on my post in the EN thread...about true love, loving many, helping your love to grow...even if it means leave you.

I agree with GG, people call anything they don't want to hear, or accept, the fog. At least often they do.

Okay...

I'll try again. I'm not reading Francis' post as a blanket "look out" post. I'm reading it as a "it's the betrayed spouse who caused my affair" post.

Let's look at what she said:
"What was your part in the affair? Believe me, happy marriages, happy people do not fall into affairs."

First, the BS plays absolutely no part in the affair. The BS can only control themselves; therefore, the BS has no responsibility as far as an affair is concerned. Trying to blame a BS for an affair is like trying to blame a victim for being mugged.

Second, happiness comes from within. You can't depend upon someone else to make you happy. If you are so unhappy that you HAVE to be with someone else, anyone else, then IMHO you are not suited to any relationship as you will drain that relationship to the point of failure.

Third, the only responsibility a BS has is the part they played in the unhappiness of the marriage and the divorce if it happened. The BS can only be responsible for their own actions. Anything else is simply placing blame. Just because someone is unhappy in their marriage does not mean that they are justified in having an affair. If they are unhappy, they should communicate it and if their partner still refuses to come around, divorce. Other relationships must come AFTER the divorce. Any attempt to blame the BS for the affair isn't justified.

"I'm not taking any responsibiilty away from her actions but it takes more than one partner to stray."

Yes it does, it takes the WS and the OP. Again, the BS doesn't even know what is going on.

"Often times people will say they had no idea an affair was looming, they had no idea there was unhappiness in the marriage. I suggest to those who hold onto such illusions that you wake up and carefully examine your marriage prior to the A."

Yes, with hindsight being 20/20 and with a lot more information about the affair and having their illusions of a faithful marriage completely destroyed, sure the BS knows a lot more now, but at the time with what little they knew, they probably did the best they could. Once I knew there was a problem, I moved swiftly to learn more and do more. The problem is that by the time I knew anything she was so deeply involved with the affair that there was little hope. I did the best I could have with what I knew. It always seemed like I was a step behind.

The point is that I believe it is fair to give a general "take care of your marriage, less your spouse may stray" message. It is NOT fair to say, "you are the fault for the straying of your spouse."

<small>[ April 19, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: father of 1, husband of 0 ]</small>

I'll try again. I'm not reading Francis' post as a blanket "look out" post .

Sorry you're choosing not to read it that way because, in all honesty and sincerity, that's what it was meant to be. If it could happen to my X and I, trust me, it can happen to anyone!

I'm reading it as a "it's the betrayed spouse who caused my affair" post.

There's really no point to addressing your remarks then since you have your heels dug in. But for the benefit of even one person out there, I will address your post.


First, the BS plays absolutely no part in the affair. The BS can only control themselves; therefore, the BS has no responsibility as far as an affair is concerned.

Life is not nearly as black and white or as neat as you describe here. To say the BS has no responsibility for a spouse's affair is technically true ... but the danger lies in assuming that all is peachy keen in a relationship when it's not. Denial is a dangerous way to live, for everyone. While the BS doesn't directly contribute to an affair, he/she may be setting the stage by denying there are problems, by burying his/her head in the sand and ignoring all those little (or not so little) signs that point to the potential for an affair. A troubled marriage needs open honest communication, if that isn't happening in your marriage, something's wrong.

Trying to blame a BS for an affair is like trying to blame a victim for being mugged.

That's a little hystrionic me thinks.

Second, happiness comes from within. You can't depend upon someone else to make you happy. If you are so unhappy that you HAVE to be with someone else, anyone else, then IMHO you are not suited to any relationship as you will drain that relationship to the point of failure.

That was such a loaded statement it merits its own discussion. No, no one can make you happy, happiness does in fact come from within. I'm glad you've found happiness within yourself. For some of us with less than idyllic childhood/early adulthood, it takes a lifetime or maybe a crisis to come to a point where that statement makes any sense at all. And for the record, I was the last person I would have suspected to be capable of an affair. It wasn't looking. I'm sorry I found.

Third, the only responsibility a BS has is the part they played in the unhappiness of the marriage and the divorce if it happened. The BS can only be responsible for their own actions.


THAT was my point.

Just because someone is unhappy in their marriage does not mean that they are justified in having an affair.

Agreed. I'll go one even further. There is never any justification for an affair. Period.


Gotta run now... be back later

Oh, the old “create your own happiness” rears its ugly head. Happiness does not come from within. If it did, we’d live alone like Giant Pandas and Tigers. They only come together to mate. Tigers don’t even rear young together.

Nope. I believe happiness, like unhappiness, is a reaction to stimulus. That’s the whole reason I buy into the MB principles at all. Because our happiness is determined by our surroundings. Taking responsibility for your own happiness is NOT the same thing as happiness coming from within, basically self-created.

One takes responsibility for one’s happiness by seeking situations which enable us to be happy, and avoiding those which cause us pain and unhappiness.

On the topic of needing someone to be happy… In some few cases that need may be unhealthy, like with people who suffer from personality disorders, but I think those are the exception. So, I’m basing my rebuttal on your typical marrying adult.

And if you don’t “need” someone to be happy, why would you ever get married? Hmm? We get married because we believe our intended it integral to our happiness. That person provides the necessary stimulus to elicit a “happy” response from us. Failure to understand this or accept this leads to spouses ignoring or denying the unhappiness the second spouse feels. And worse, it allows the content spouse to blame the second spouse for being unhappy in the marriage.

“If he’s so unhappy, he should change. It’s his fault he’s unhappy.” Of course, if he does change, usually that means he leaves the marriage.

I’m not even sure I’ll buy that spiritual happiness comes from within. The “peace which passeth all understanding” comes not from within us, but from the Holy Spirit. The peace of which the Buddha teaches comes from merging the self with something greater.

I have to agree with Father of 1 on a few points.

First,I agree that adultery should in no way be blamed on the BS.It is not "histrionic" comparing a mugging to adultery.Both situations occur as shocking,unwarranted,unsolicited,hurtful,self motivated acts against another person,the difference I see being that adultery occurs to that person with which you were supposed to love and protect from such acts.I have also heard time and again how we all are responsible for the state of our marriage beforehand,etc,etc BUT as was mentioned,there is ABSOLUTELY NO justification for adultery.

Second,happiness within.I take umbrage to this notion that we as BS's are in denial or do not have the capacity to recognize a S's unhappiness to the degree we are TOLD.I think a big mistake many people make,in my experience anyway,is not communicating the seriousness of problems a person may be having within a marriage.In my own situation,I was not told much of anything regarding my WH's "unhappiness" since he was not a very communicative person to begin with but also by the time he was falling into his A,he was in full dishonesty mode.He made a conscious choice to involve himself and discuss his problems or concerns with the homewrecker instead of ME as he should have done.I cried and cried over not knowing just how bad things were for my WH.In all honesty I would have done ANYTHING to prevent this A from happening had I the CHANCE to do so.

Happiness IS found within and my marriage and life with my WH before the A was icing on the cake,so to speak.I did not need a man
to complete me or make me any happier but instead I chose to be with someone who I enjoyed being with,loved,shared dreams and built a family with.I think some people do look to find a mate or be married to solve their problems already indwelling.*Sharing my life with another.

My WH and I both agreed earlier that if we had known about MB before the A that we might have been able to communicate better and meet our EN's and perhaps been spared this horrific experience.Who knows for sure but like parenting,I think we really need some serious education about marriage before walking down the aisle.

O

One other point to mention.

It is my understanding from being here since last November that the "fog" is the term used to describe the actions and statements of our WS who is in the first stage of love(infatuation or "falling in love" stage) and it is a chemical reaction which is strong.But in no way is it ascribed to WS's as a means with which to deny or not accept.It is not a fair statement to suggest that we just do not want to hear what our WS's are saying but it is a time where the WS's DO say hurtful things to BS's.

On the CONTRARY,I think BS's want to know what has happened to our WS's so we can try to repair our marriages.I know I was all ears in the beginning but after realizing that this A wasn't going to die a natural death anytime soon,therein lies the reason for me rejecting the hurtful responses.Until my WH figures out what he wants to do with his life,I will NOT be subjected to repeated hurtful discussions that are not marriage building but destructive.

o

I think many of us were addressing what we commonly hear here over the years. Not all betrayed spouses ascribe all the opinions of their spouse to the “Fog.” But, quite a few do. I don’t think anyone here would dare to say that a betrayed spouse is responsible for an affair. But, most of us agree with Dr. Harley that the betrayed spouse is responsible for helping create an environment in which an affair is possible.
As for the betrayed spouse being in denial about the unhappiness of the other spouse, once again, the majority of betrayed spouses simply didn’t believe or understand the depth of unhappiness. Sometimes, the spouse may show no signs. But, Steve Harley counters that spouses should ask about the other’s happiness. Both have responsibility.

As for the happiness question, if happiness comes from within, then you and others should be able to be happy even when getting divorced.