I am more than happy to answer any questions that I can.. although I am not comfortable giving others advice, I am happy to share my experiences and help any way I can...

Hi So Hard,
It sounds to me as though you are or have experienced many of the same emotions / problems / situations my stbxw is. I am long winded so please excuse the excessive verbiage. Would you like to do this in this thread or would you prefer email as at times I would like to ask some difficult and maybe personal questions. Ya never know what might come up in certain areas. Number 1 I noticed that you said on the other thread that you didn't really take notice of your H until he started dating again. I am very torn by this particular subject as I do miss female companionship in its many forms. However it is my personal belief we are still married and I don't have the right to be dating. This is not only a legal judgement on my part but a moral one as well. She has mentioned several times how she would like me to go out and find a woman who will give me all the love and everthing else I want and deserve that she isn't able to. I really think this is a ploy on her part to relieve some of the guilt she is feeling by having whatever kind of relationship she is having. I'll leave this as our topic starter for now until I see how you want to proceed. It may be late Wednesday night before I can reply again. Thanks for your response,
DavidA

Hello again.. I can just answer your questions here..

Dating.. hmmm In my RIGHT mind I would have never dated before the D was final. I actually never let my kids know I dated and hid it from them. But, you are right, morally it was wrong. Can I change that? NO, I can only learn from it.

And... if H would have dated sooner, the anger would have still been there from me from his treatment to me for many years.....I would have said goodbye and been on my way. So, really no advice there. I actually had told him at one time the same thing your w is telling you. That I hoped he would find someone else.

God and prayer were huge to us! I know part of me letting down my walls and letting him back in was God's work. Strange as it sounds, we still went to church every week and sat together. The kids, H and I. Just seemed dumb to be there and not sit together..

<small>[ April 27, 2004, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: sohard ]</small>

Hi So Hard,
Sorry not to reply yesterday. Hectic schedule. Was at home and the stbxw was late getting back. Called about 10 very upset and crying and wanted me to talk to her on her way home. We had a talk when she got back. Some reluctant hugging and much crying on her part. She was under the assumption that we had a court date set for July 20th, which we don't, she is very confused as to what and how this is all going to happen. It seems as she is having difficulty convincing herself that she is doing the right thing. Told me again to find another woman who would give me all I wanted and make me happy. I finally got tired of holding back and asked her if she wanted to hear my thoughts on us. I told her I didn't have the least bit interest in dating. That I checked out the dating services and decided that it would not be anything for me for a long time. She did agree it was to soon for me to start dating yet. I then proceeded to tell her that I realized she had to work out her own problems and that I was willing to wait. How I took responsibility for the failure of our marriage and that I never took the time to really get to know her. That she didn't owe me anything but I was asking for the chance to try and get to know each other and see if we could start a new relationship based on that. NOT ON THE PAST. She accused me of being in denial. I said no I was fully prepared to go through with the divorce if that is what she wanted. That what she saw in me was hope and I would always have it. Did you have a terrible need to know the mechanics of the divorce ( division of property, custody, etc. ) before you reached your turning point ? She won't look me in the eye and say she definatly wants the divorce. It's done it's over lets get it over with. I asked her to commit one way or the other last night and she ended the conversation and walked out.

As far as God and religon is concerned, she was always a very devout Catholic. Since our problems have surfaced in November and she has filed for divorce she tells me she has lost her faith. She still goes to church and sings in the choir. Goes with the kids now and then but I think it is all just a front for the kids sake. She won't take communion any more, I guess because she won't ask for forgiveness from the Lord and mean it and drop this whole divorce thing and try to work on our marriage.

I know you don't know me and your only hearing my side of the story but I will tell you I'm not a bad guy. My biggest sin was neglect and taking her for granted. According to her I was controlling. Myself and most people I know including her family don't see me that way. I didn't and don't want her to have male friends that she spends alone time with. I'm sorry but I'm not that open minded and when she did do that she had an emotional affair with the guy and probably still is if not a PA as well. At this point that is her business and her cross to bear not mine. She tells me she can never love another man. That she has to learn to love herself first. She needs to find out who she is. Does any of this sound familiar with your situation ?

Enough for now or this will turn into a novel.
Take care and God Bless,
David A

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>

First, I am so sorry for what you and your wife are going through. I know it was an awful time for my H an I.

We actually had all the D proceedings final. He was never mean and bitter as I thought he would be and always put the kids interest first. I think through all that was a HUGE eye opener for me. Even though it was my decision to separate and I filed for D. (Actually I first filed for a legal separation because I was afraid of what he would do finacially and I didn't have a job, am a full time student right now and had stayed home with the kids for 13 years) Anyway, with it being my decision he NEVER presented that to the kids, we were a united front as this is what WE have decided. That within itself and with the whole D proceedings were HUGE for me. He went through divorce care thru the church, and that helped him.

What helped too is he when he just remained my friend. That whenever I reached out to talk or (as your wife cry) when he quit pushing for more or ultimatums, but was just there as my friend. That helped me to trust him when he didn't push or bulldoze for more. In our previous years of M he was very very controling and verbally and emotionally abusive. Although unlike you "everyone" saw it and knew it.

Like your wife, I had an EA for over a year. It actually ended before H and I started mc, which was before the separation. Although we did break no contact a few times...(saw each other twice) and talked a couple of times over that year of separation. (OM and I) H didn't know of the EA until we reconciled. I told him before we even thought about trying to work things out. So, that didn't help things either.

I also had SO much resentment for how he had treated me for 18 years of M. I was SO angry that it took me separating and filing for D before He really took a look at himself and changing himself. I didn't think I could ever get over that. I didn't think I could ever feel anything for him again.

I too struggled with D being a sin. I struggled with my faith. But, I also knew God was here in this house with me. I knew he saw all that went on, and I knew he didn't want to see it continue. I know my H "held that over my head" that I was sinning. That made things worse. Funny thing, when we were in MC one day. The MC asked me "why did you allow H's behavior of you?" My answer was because we had been to MC before and H said he was not going to change. I knew D was a sin and I didn't think I had any other choices. So, you see, it is a hard spot to be in.

When your W talks to you, listen to her. I mean really listen to what she is saying. Don't get defensive. Just try to really and truly understand her feelings. When she reaches out to you, just be there for her. Call her just to talk, but don't push it when she doesn't want to. Ask her to do things once in awhile.. build up a friendship. That is where it has to begin anyway. I don't know how long the D wait is where you are, but here there is a three month wait. Do all you can in those three months. Don't give up (without really pushing that on her) until the last day and the papers are signed.

Sorry this got long, and I do hope it helps. This is something you REALLY have to want. H and I have been back together now for 6 months and it is still LOTS of work. We still go to MC weekly and the old habits are hard to break. But, we also have a better realtionship now than we ever had.

God Bless...

Hi So Hard,
Thanks for your reply.
I did call her today and you might think I was trying to give her the plauge. i excused myself quick and hung up. She runs hot and cold in a minutes notice. later this evening I called back to say goodnight to the kids and she was still unsure about what kind of mood she was in but didn't treat me rudely. Even my daughter had calmed down and didn't refer to me as [censored] hole. I'm afraid her lack of commitment to God has somewhat slowed her progress down. Even her counselor has told her not to talk to a preist as he would lay a tremondous guilt trip on her which she would not be able to handle. I have much more to say but I am exhausted and have to go to bed. I'll write more tomorrow. Thanks for listening.....
David A

Hi David A..

I can so relate to your wifes feelings, moods.. I was like that with H for a long time. I had so much anger and resentment to get past. The best thing he did was "give me space". Give me the time I needed to heal. We talked only about the kids..(cordially, never rude or disrepectful). He just gave me time. (Kind of a plan B per say). In the mean time, you need lots of support from friends and family..

I want to say.. Doesn't mean you should be treated rudly or badly. Also, with your daughter calling you an a&&*%), that is so not right. We didn't ever speak badly of each other to the kids. That I can't help you with except to say no matter how things are between the two of you, the kids should NEVER be put in the middle of it. I am sorry you are going through that.

I probably won't be able to reply any more this weekend. Hope you have a nice one!

Have you asked your W if you can remain friendly to one another at least for the kids sake for now.

Hi SH,
We had a birthday party for my daughter on Sunday. My side of the family took us out and gave her presents the night before and refused to come to the party at my house the following day. The didn't want to be around my stbxw. Well both the W and D were very upset that my side didn't come. My stbxw mother also was unkind to her that morning, told her she dug herself a hole and now what was she going to do. Needless to say I got both barrels at the end of the party. It was all my fault that everyone feels the way they do about her. I'm the great husband and father and she is the rotten wife ruining everyones life. I can't seem to win no matter what I do or how I act. I have told her mother that it wasn't entirely her fault for our problems that it took 2 of us to get where we are today. Her mother also blamed herself for my wife being the way she is. The W said very loudly and with more and more agitation in tears " the only way to solve all this is for me to go back the way things were so every one could be happy but her". She kept saying words to this effect over and over and louder and louder for a few minutes. I told her going back was not an option for me that I wanted to go forward with or without her. I finally had to raise my voice and in tears at that point to stop the madness. First time I have raised my voice to her in months. I then told her I had to go to work which upset her even more as it was my day off. Inventory coming and I was asked by the GM to work a few hours tha evening to work on preparations. She said it would have been OK if I was going to another social function but going to work upset her ??????? I don't get it.... She resents my job so much even though it has been providing us both with a means to live. She thinks she is a failure as she can't seem to secure a full time position with benefits with the hours she wants and the type of work she wants. I told her how difficlt it was to find all that right now as the employment opportunities in our area are very limited at this time. I have an opportunity at this point to step out of management to an hourly position with a substantial cut in pay but with the same benefits and regular hours and the majority of my weekends off. I don't know if this kind of sacrifice on my part will send a message to her that I am serious about changing my life around to spend more time with my family which I genuinely want to do. I don't know if at this point it will be a meaningless gesture which will put us all in a financial bind or if it will send a serious message to her that I am in ernest in my feelings and changes. We could do OK with this new situation if we were together and pooling our money from both jobs to support us.

She is still so full of anger and resentment. She is still in so much pain trying to decide what the right course is going to be for her. As I left I took both her hands in mind to say goodbye. She said to me I want us to be friends through all this for the sake of the children. I thanked her for that thought and told her I was ready to go forward when she was. I didn't want it but I was ready. I then left and cried most of the way to work.

My feelings are that God's will is for me to be patient and wait this out. During our relationship talk last week she asked why and how I could still love her. She couldn't understand why I hadn't ended it all months ago. Sometimes I wonder that myself but the feelings are still there.

Sorry for the marathon post again. Any comments are welcome. Don't feel you have to be polite. If there is something that I am doing that is counterproductive to my bringing about a reconciliation please tell me. Sometimes we a blinded by our own emotions.
God Bless and good night,

David A

I wish I had more words or encouragment, but I can only say how sorry I am for what you and your w are going through. The pain for you both is so obvious. Your family is in my prayers.

It is obvious you are really wanting to change. Just continue in the change with/without your wife. You don't need her approval or encouragment to change your life for the better. This is what my h did and it really made an impact on me.

Again, I am so sorry for all that you are going through. Really and truly try to be her friend and support right now.

Hi SH,
After the fiasco with the party and my family not showing up I had an inspiration to write a letter. I sent this to everyone in my family and her family. I have yet to hear from anyone. Maybe it was to strong or wierd for them to hear or understand.

My dear and beloved family,
I write this with a heavy heart, a troubled mind, with tears in my eyes, and a great deal of pain in my soul.

"M" and I are going through very troubled times. A marriage survives or fails as a result of the actions or feelings of TWO people, not one. We are both equally responsible for the situation we are now in. We both ( and our family ) need the love, support and understanding of you all. Please do not blame one or the other of us for these problems. If you need to blame or be mad feel that way at us both for failing at our marriage.

We are both trying in our own way to resolve this peacefully. The children need to see that they have the love and support of all of you and that they can see you feel the same way about "M" and I.

Even in divorce we are all still family. You can't erase the feelings and relationships that took 24 years to build with a piece of paper.

Please find it in your hearts to forgive and to Love us both. We still need you and want you in our lives.

God Bless you and keep you,

Love, David

I read this to her over the phone as I wanted her to hear about it from me rather than someone else. Her response was basicaly how dare I send this to her family without her permission. That I was once again trying to control her. As I neared the end of the letter she started crying.

Please tell me SH, do you see this as a ploy to control her ? I told her these people were all my family too. I didn't think I needed permission to speak with them.

Today she called me about 12:15 to tell me she just completed an interview for a job and needed to tell someone about it. That she was really was trying to find work. She further said that it was time for her to stop crying all the time and make some decesions. That she wanted to talk to me. Wanted to know if I was serious about giving up my manegement position to take the "regular" job with the cut in pay. She also wanted to know if I was going to try to take the children away from her.
I really don't know where all this is coming from. Can you give me any kind of insight as to what this all means. I can't tell if she is ready to say the words of if she is still to confused to be able to make a rational decesion about the course of her life.

Have a good night and thanks for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.

David A

David,

Sorry that I have not replied. Actually H and I had a bad week, doing better now though!

Your letter was very sweet to the families.

I am sure your wife thought the words were sweet, the only thing she "may" feel with the anger she expressed that by sending the letter you are trying to play "the victim" and the "good guy", in turn making her look bad. Not sure, I could be way off base. Now, just besides writing those words, live them. I know it always felt H could write or say anything, but living those words was harder.

Again, that was a very sweet letter.. Hope your weekend went well!

Hi Sohard,
I hope things are going well for you. I'm still on the roller coaster. She actually said the words to my face a couple of weeks ago only to , 8 hours later changer her mind again. But only to wait to think about the division of property of our home. She was never going to stay in the house but now she wants to and says she won't leave.

I asked her to meet me and talk about the divorce agreement. When we started I asked if she was sure this is what she wanted. She replied she didn't want to end up divorced and look back and wonder if she made the right decesion. I said the only way that we could have a better idea was to give marriage counseling a chance. She said she would think about it. Well she is still going out with "friends" and partying and telling me she hasn't had time to think about it yet. I feel as if I am being played for a fool here. She is lying to me and the children about where she is and what she is doing. She just says she doesn't have to tell me what she does anymore. Well maybe partially true but she doesn't have to lie either. She knows how much lying upsets me.

I am meeting with her again tomorrow morning at 6:30 to talk some more. I know you said no pressure and I would like to do that but can I keep this charade up with her lying all the time and not committing to go to MC ? I don't think so. I will not be rude, mad or unkind but she has to make some kind of committment one way or another. Even the children are becoming unglued at not knowing what is going to happen to them or our home. I could go on and on but I will quit here.
God Bless,
David A

I am so sorry for your pain. Again, remember H and I were 1 mth from D being final... ONE MONTH!

I did all your wife is doing. In my case, my H was so dominant and controlling that once I was out from under that, I didn't want to tell him anything of my life. Just wanted him to leave me alone. That was just our case... may not be relavant to yours. Give her some space, pray often.. Only she can control her actions and decisions, and unfortunatly whatever you do now, as much as it feels loving to you may push her away.

Remeber no matter how angry you get, don't do anything that you can't look back upon and be proud of your actions.