<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Thanks for asking. I respond later today when I have a little more time. I'm off to MC right now.

Flygirl, I think your story is intriguing because you have a choice in your M and in your life. You could choose to love your H and make it work.
You could use the MB principles and have a better M than you ever imagined.
If you truly have all that anyone would want, why aren't you happy? Only you can answer that question and answer it honestly.
Being true to ourselves is sometimes the hardest part.

"Can you tell me more about your motivations for marrying your spouse and how you felt about him, just between him and you - absent outside pressure to marry a man of his status, at the time you dated and married, flygirl?"


My story has been documented pretty well on the infidelity board. If those of us who have had an A are not welcome here, I understand and apologize for "crashing the board" and will politely leave.

Yes, I do have a choice to work on my marriage. I realize that. There are many many reasons that things are not working between us. I know that each spouse should tirelessly try to make things work until all avenues are traveled. We have traveled many. Many of our problems have haunted this relationship from Day 1. Most of it I put on me for going through with a marriage that I never thought would work out, but I wanted it to and was afraid to turn back. Much of it was wanting to please others, as I have said before, and here I am making all those around me sad for what is happening to us now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

There are those of you that believe that the ONLY justifiable reason for leaving a spouse is abuse/safety reasons. And those that think an A is one more. That otherwise, we should make it work, force it to work no matter what. There are many who believe it is God's will. I do believe in God, but I don't agree with that philosophy.

As someone raised in a very unhappy home with a tremendous lack of love or respect from my parents for each other, I can tell you that there are TREMENDOUS ramifications for the children, even when there is no abuse present. It is the one thing I struggle with in the leaving/staying decision. But b/c of the things that have happened since he has been home, primarily deciding to come home without any discussion or announcement to me (and yes, I do acknowledge that he has every right to be there and that he has been generous in leaving for that time), gone now is the last bit of hope, faith, desire to be with him as his wife. The love bank is bankrupt and it is not fair to him to suffer in the event that we never are able to kindle any romance.

There are many reasons I married him. Many were the wrong reasons to marry someone. Love them yes, marry them no. Like I said, my kids are precious gifts that I would never give back but in the end... at the end of the day... you should be with someone who connects with you. Who makes you feel whole. Who loves and cherishes you. Who shares your interests. Who shares your sadness and pain. Who you want to spend you days with after the kids are gone, and up to the very end. In my own family, those relationships exist, just not in my house.

My H is a wonderful man, a tremendous father, a good friend. But he is an emotional child, admittedly so. He is trying to learn but fundamentally he is very much the same man that I have known for 14 years. It is a day late / dollar short for me, and I am trying to accept the fact that that is okay (I have a tremendous amount of guilt about that, that I should give him an unlimited amount of time to work on things). Throwing in the towel, so to speak, is not a crime. Turning to others for love and affection is. Neither one of us can make our children happy people if we are not, and right now we both are miserable. So, for me, I turn my faith inward and try to find the courage to follow my heart to find what it is that no one should be without, and I am ready to discover that that may be with someone, or alone.

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

It's not so much the "coming back", it's the WAY he did it. He just asked if I wanted him to spend a night over to help with our daughter, who was getting up frequently, and I was in the midst of some serious depression - so I said "sure!" Then he asked the next night and I said "yeah, that's great". Then he never asked again. He just stayed some nights, and left others. I didn't know what was going on, and was going to talk about it but.....

One night last week he was out with the guys playing poker. They usually play until 4 in the morning, so I ASSUMED (bad thing to do) that he would stay back at his townhome - especially since he had stayed there the night before. When I got up the next morning, I went to shower. I got out of the shower, wrapped a towel on my head and - stark naked - walked out of the bathroom into the bedroom, turned the corner and there stood a man - staring at me. I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO FRIGHTENED IN MY LIFE. ALL I SAW WAS THIS MAN IN FRONT OF ME AND ME STANDING THERE NAKED, VULNERABLE - I THOUGHT I WAS HAVING A HEART ATTACK. Then I realized it was my H, but I was in a state of shock. I ran back into the bathroom, fell down on the floor and cried. After I composed myself, I got dressed and walked out. He walked right past me into the bathroom telling me he had to get ready for a tee time, showered, left and never said another word about it.

The next day he washed all his clothes and hung them up on hangers, put underwear in the drawer. He was here to stay. I didn't know how to express what I was feeling - did I want him here? Didn't he have a right to be here? Why didn't we discuss this? What is next? Will I wake up and find him next to me in the bed the next morning? And on top of me the next?

Then over the next couple of days there were some other things that happened - hurtful things - that were very symptomatic of our relationship and reinforced my belief that I am here to mother, cook, clean, service, entertain... but not to be loved in more than a superficial way, deeply loved. It's not his fault, he admits he doesn't know how. He wasn't raised well and to suppress his emotions so he can't feel these things, much less express them. Even today, in MC when I sobbed and sobbed telling our MC this story, she asked him if he wanted to say anything, and stoicly he said "I'll try not to do those things anymore, I'll try to do better". All I wanted him to say was "God, I'm sorry. I love you so much, and I don't want to make you feel this way. You mean the world to me." I have never heard him say anything like that, ever. And now I can't say it anymore either, I can't communicate with him the way I used to try and the way I do with others b/c of all my failed attempts before.

My heart has broken over time, and every time I put a band-aid on it and go back hoping it will heal, it shatters again. But he's not trying to hurt me, he is just being who he is. I can't force anyone to be something they are not and he has been this way for his whole life. I could work on this, and wait it out, and hope that time and IC makes a difference, but in the meantime my heart breaks over and over again. And I am lonely, and he, in his own way, is lonely b/c I can't give him SF.

I have spent my life trying to live the right way. I have been honest, law abiding, God abiding, and kind. I haven't been kind to him during the time of my A. It's the first thing in my life I have ever done that I can point to and loathe myself for. It's my first real fall from grace. But, at the time, it was something I desperately needed. And in most ways I regret it, but in a few I don't. I have learned that you just can't bury the side of you that needs someone else to be close - that you can pretend for a time it doesn't exist, but that it will always catch up with you in the end.

I loved my H the day I first laid eyes on him. I loved him still after 10 years of superficiality. I loved him after 2 more years of post-partum depression when he wasn't there for me. And in the last year, while he should have been the one with a broken heart since I had the A, haha it is mine whose is shattered and may never heal.

<small>[ May 10, 2004, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Flygirl 13 ]</small>

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by laura_lee:
<strong> Hugs, Flygirl. Just hugs.

And you're my newest bud. And I have this to say to you, no way can you "loathe yourself". No! No! No! That is not right. If you did something, and you've moved on... it's behind you. We have all done things. And it's gone, now. No way would I agree with that emotion.

Well, where do you go from here?

Even if you were doing something you didn't really want to be doing - and found part of yourself wanting to be doing - and you wanted to stop doing it... how would loathing yourself help you to stop doing it?

Loathing is counterproductive. And it's just not nice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So please don't. Cause people love you, and God loves you, just where you are.

So, anyway, where do you go from here?

What do you do about this situation? There was no agreement that your husband would return. No terms. He just... shows up! Now what?

Laura </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I'll add to these good questions...and say HELLO FlyGirl13 / Aryn!!! Missed you I did!! I'm in NYC tonight on a layover.

Here's my question: Aryn, if you were to step on up and take up a plan of action & begin to act on it to resolve this stalemate, do you think you would begin to feel better?

I think of it as kind of like a festering sore. It just gets worse and worse, picking at it makes it hurt. Only way is to lance it!! Get it over with and then get on with healing it.

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

HIGH FLIGHT!!! GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU AND I HOPE YOU ARE DOING WELL. I had to take a break from the beating I was taking on the recovery board (probably justifiably so) but I'm back here in this section b/c honestly I think this is where I am headed - and sadly want to go.

Take action to resolve the stalemate... meaning ask for a divorce? It's what I want to do. But I am frightened out of my skull. Afraid of what lies on the other side. Passive out of fear. If you mean take action to mend the marriage? I could take action to make it tolerable for me maybe, but honestly all the love I once felt for H is gone. And I fear that the longer this goes on will further damage our relationship and cannibalize our ability to parent together in peace. I don't want that. I know this board promotes marriage above anything else, work tirelessly, give all you have of yourself until you can give no more. Love despite everything, forgive despite everything. I have come to accept that even when there is love, sometimes it just ain't enough. Deep down inside my soul, I am certain that my H isn't going to ever fulfill my EN's. It's not cutting him short, it's more than about what he does (or doesn't do)... it's about who he is inside.

I hope you are dealing with things and moving on and finding peace with life and all that stuff. I think about you frequently, and your wife, and wonder how she is doing and feeling too.

Thanks, Laura for the props! I have struggled with a lack of self-love all my life. I have been in and out of IC to solve it. I think addressing my M will go a long way towards helping that. I have forgiven myself for my A (other than the fact that I hurt another woman I don't know - OP's wife). I don't hate myself, I just don't love myself or consider myself important. I'm hoping to change that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Flygirl 13:
<strong> HIGH FLIGHT!!! GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU AND I HOPE YOU ARE DOING WELL. I had to take a break from the beating I was taking on the recovery board (probably justifiably so) but I'm back here in this section b/c honestly I think this is where I am headed - and sadly want to go.

Take action to resolve the stalemate... meaning ask for a divorce? It's what I want to do. But I am frightened out of my skull. Afraid of what lies on the other side. Passive out of fear. If you mean take action to mend the marriage? I could take action to make it tolerable for me maybe, but honestly all the love I once felt for H is gone. And I fear that the longer this goes on will further damage our relationship and cannibalize our ability to parent together in peace. I don't want that. I know this board promotes marriage above anything else, work tirelessly, give all you have of yourself until you can give no more. Love despite everything, forgive despite everything. I have come to accept that even when there is love, sometimes it just ain't enough. Deep down inside my soul, I am certain that my H isn't going to ever fulfill my EN's. It's not cutting him short, it's more than about what he does (or doesn't do)... it's about who he is inside.

I hope you are dealing with things and moving on and finding peace with life and all that stuff. I think about you frequently, and your wife, and wonder how she is doing and feeling too.

Thanks, Laura for the props! I have struggled with a lack of self-love all my life. I have been in and out of IC to solve it. I think addressing my M will go a long way towards helping that. I have forgiven myself for my A (other than the fact that I hurt another woman I don't know - OP's wife). I don't hate myself, I just don't love myself or consider myself important. I'm hoping to change that! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aryn ~ HELLO TO YOU TOO!!! I thank you for the well wishes & thoughts my way.

Quickie update: My divorce has been filed. Ex-wife bought a new house. All finances settled already. She calls me basically every day. She feels like "she's fu&%ed up her life" (her choice of words). Very depressed. She's expressed suicide notions & the use of her gun. I'm worried about her & asked her to get on meds ASAP.

I really had no input into the situation except I had to have divorce paperwork before I'd buy my house from her and settle all finances. So she did it. I think down deep she knows she's walking away from a truly good thing with someone who loves and cares and won't give up unless there's no reason to continue.

But she just wouldn't budge an inch on being willing to try or work on it or come home....so here I am. I'm very sad alot. Cry daily. Depressed more than I've been. This is a tough time to put it mildly & I'm flying like crazy...

Now to you -- Here's what I see as your buddy OK?

1. You're afraid. Fear of these HUGE decisions is normal & expected. Your challenge is to turn fear into appropriate action. Don't continue to allow it to paralyze you. That's dangerous and ultimately unhealthy for you. Bottom line? It won't lead anywhere good.

2. You're confused inside about what to do. You haven't quite reached a point of critical mass to make the final decision. You're still unresolved over whether to fight for the marriage, or get out. This is very understandable. Everyone goes through this stage, some quicker than others. Keep working...and talking...you'll reach the point of action that way, OK?

3. Yes, marriage is for life. Love is for keeps. I'm a firm believer in these ideals too Aryn. And I'm divorced!!! Think of the irony, yet deeper truth herein. Most unfortunately, the ideals are seldom if ever achieved in our lives in this sinful world. That's reality. God has a remedy for our realities! Our need? Apply His remedies. Learn from this. Become whole in Him. Pick up and go on in His strength from this point. It starts with accepting Him into your life 100%. Accept His forgiveness and then His power to live an overcoming lifestyle!

4. Agreed! Aryn needs to love Aryn -- Aryn desperately NEEDS to love Aryn! Aryn TRUELY NEEDS to love Aryn. Aryn Unconditionally needs to love Aryn. And only when Aryn is whole...can Aryn then offer love to another human being that is capable of being a life-long love. Notice a certain common word here? Aryn! It's you my dear that needs the healing and the wholeness.

One could make a case for your marriage being fatally flawed from the outset. (Now all this is leaving God's power entirely OUT of the marriage -- which sadly may have been true anyway only you know). But if you've got 2 human beings who don't really love themselves, don't really like themselves, don't really know who they are in God's Creation...then you've got the recipe for disaster standing right there under the wedding trellis!!! Just mix the ingredients of low self-esteem and lack of self-love and set it on the stove, on simmer. It'll take some time, but the end results are clearly predictable and completely unettible.

That's how I see it my dear!

I'm here for you...High Flight

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by laura_lee:
<strong> Hey...

I'm loving this thread. We are way cool flying high here!!

The philosophy goes like this, "The greatest command is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength... and then to love others as we love ourselves"

Therefore, we have to experience God's love and let Him love us... drink it up... based on His love for us... and it's unconditional. Trust me, we cannot meet the condition of perfection required. But God made a way. As we explore God and take Him at His Word that He really does love us just as we are just where we're at... we lose the need to "earn" love. That's a futile effort and an oxymoron doomed to failure. When we get off the "earning" love track... and onto God's grace track... whoop! theay it is!!

Once we are on the grace track between us and God... we find ourselves able to love ourselves according to His terms - cause our terms never work. Then, we find ourselves able to give to others the grace we ourselves have received.

When we let God love us... and focus on feeling loved and accepted by Him... it opens up our ability to be loved and to love.

Will chat more later. I type 90wpm and that was an impromptu 2 minute chat.

See ya!

Laura </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very well said Laura L!! I like your mind...and your Christian renewed heart!!

~ High Flight

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Thanks, guys. It's all such good advice. I have been working on myself, trying to love myself for 36 and in one week 37 years now. I haven't succeeded. That's not to say I'm not trying.

If I had loved myself earlier, I WOULD HAVE NEVER MARRIED THIS MAN. That needs to be clear. Love him, I did. But the lack of love, respect he showed for me wouldn't have cut it. I would have dumped him early on (and my inside voice told me to as well as all my friends, family). But I ignored it, and married him. We have made it through 10 years of marriage, but it has NEVER been what I think a marriage should be for me. I see other people I know, some who are friends, some who are strangers, where the relationship just funtions on an entirely different plane. I'm not saying they don't have their moments, they do and I have seen some of them... but there is an emotional connection, a respect for each other, something I can't really identify in words that I have NEVER HAD WITH MY H. And now I don't want it anymore. I don't believe it exists within him, he's not sure it does, and it may never come out. And even if it does, I don't want it anymore.

It's that simple really.

But could I be like your wife, HF... and regret making such a permanent and dangerous and risky move??? Would I feel differently after giving him up? I don't have any sense that I would, but for the sake of my kids I need to be absolutely sure.

All of this, plus the "soul connection" I felt within my A (I'm not foggy with this, I had it in several dating relationships before I got married) is making it impossible for me to take it on faith and give this marriage one more serious chance. I don't want to be with him, I don't want to chat with him, I don't want to lay with him, I don't want to engage in any kind of physical activity with him. And it has been this way for YEARS. At what point do you just throw in the towel and start over? And what do you do in the meantime, when you are so miserable you can't even conjure up a smile?

You are right, HF, the passive indecision is worse than anything else. But it's something, unlike your wife, I want to be sure of before I go through it, and put my kids and family and friends through it. See, here I go again afraid to do things b/c of what others might feel/think. I just can't change my ways! Aryn lives for everyone else but her. I think it is just how I am wired. The only reason I am still here, really, or even got here in the first place is b/c I didn't want to hurt my H by leaving, before or after the wedding.

One of my fellow hockey coaches said something the other day when I asked him how his son's first communion went at church, he said "well, he wasn't all that happy about the main event, but he sure liked it when he started to open all those envelopes up with the money inside!" I said to him, laughing, "Gee, that sounds like my wedding day!!!" Not really, but creative anyway.

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

So Aryn...with all that's going on here might I suggest something that can move you forward?

It's what I would do in your situation....

I would take an entire day. Get a babysitter. Leave it with your H. Something.

Go outside into the out of doors, to a place of quiet & rest. Go to where God is more obviously present. And spend the entire long day with Him. Fast & pray. That's right. It is what Jesus Himself did when He had to make the big decisions. It works. God will reveal Himself to you & you'll learn what it is you should do in this situation.

If you'll inform us here which day you choose, then we (Laura & I) will be praying for you that day too, which will be intercessory help for you.

I believe you're in NC Aryn, correct? And Laura, what state are you in? Depending on which day, I might be anywhere, but it would be neat to know just where we're praying from!!! And I COULD be overhead!!!!!

It'll be awesome to see God at work!!! What do you say?

~ High Flight