Well, here's my story: I've posted here before in other areas, but my problem is still the same... A very long post, and thanks for reading and comments / ideas.

Married 15 yrs this June, 2 kids, 13 and 10. W and I have buried conflict: didn't discuss or negotiate, this eventually led to explosions (me) or subtle criticism and smoldering resentment (her). W has hinted at separation / divorce a couple of times during marriage, but then backed away and made light of the comment.

Money problems last couple years; I explode a couple of times in 2002 and 2003. After last venting (Aug 2003), wife informs me during counseling session that she wants separation / divorce. She moves out of our room into guest room in Aug 2003.

I don't really care at that point, but in next month after her statement, with God's grace, realize what a blockhead I've been. Begin coming to MB web site and realize I've been neglecting our relationship and her needs. I also begin serious soul-searching and counseling.

I've changed for the better and talk her into going back to couples counseling, with a commitment-oriented counselor (vs "Dr Kevorkian" type we had during time of "split"). New counseling sessions have been going on since early December, seemed to be progressing. We seem to be making progress, but can't seem to make the jump to moving back to intimacy. I had 2 solo sessions with counselor to review my progress in anger areas.

But, in last few weeks, she's back to "there's no hope, I want a divorce". When I ask why, I don't get a straight answer: "I just don't see it working", "there's so much behind us", etc. In the meantime, we're both in emotional agony, but I'm willing to stick it out so our kids can stay in an intact family, all the while pleading to stay with counseling and trying to move to some sort of intimacy. She basically folds her arms and says 'it won't work'.

In our state (NJ) she can get a "fault" divorce by alleging 'extreme cruelty', a catchall that is used in lieu of no-fault irreconciable differences. She apparently didn't know this, and I told her that I won't move out, they're my kids too, it's my home, and I want to work on the marriage, not move out / split. I have spoken to an attorney, and have been told that if she files, I can contest, but I'll lose, and she'll get a divorce in about a year or less. I've told her this, and have told her that I WILL contest, since I don't feel I've engaged in "extreme cruelty", and I don't want to be held at fault for causing the end of the marriage.

I have also told her that, when and if we have "the talk" with the kids, I will tell them the truth, what's in my heart, and not the typical "mommy and daddy can't live together anymore, but we still love you" story. I plan to tell them that I don't want to do this, that it's not my idea, and that I still love mom and want our family to stay together, that I'm willing to do anything to make this happen. What I prefer about this is that it's the truth. I'm not willing to tell my kids something about the major event of their lives that is totally at odds with what I feel in my heart.

This seems to be the only thing holding her back from filing. But here's my main question: am I doing right by my kids by telling them the truth about how I feel, in the event that she does file for divorce? Am I putting them in the middle of this? I think they'll be in the middle one way or the other, but I want to tell them the truth.

I haven't even come close to losing my temper in the past 9 months, and I've been going out of my way to try to meet her needs, feel good, and entice her back into the marriage. But I am stonewalled at every point. I'm not bitter, but just very resolved at this point. She really wants me to move out and make this as smooth as possible for her.

Your thoughts, comments, observations are appreciated. Excuse my rambling...

There are many reference books on the topic. All say, Parents should tell the children together.
Go to the library or a bookstore and get some books on separation/divorce and parenting issues.
Mom's House/Dad's House is a great book. There are also many other books geared toward teenagers. I like "How to Talk to your kids about divorce".

Your M may recover. I recommend these books so that you don't say the wrong things to the children and blame. That would hurt the kids.

MB has great tools on the site. Read the concepts and be the best person you can be for yourself and for your family.

And your wife's actions are consistent with those on these boards. She sees changes, but wonders if they are real and sustainable, or just temporary.
Talk to your counselor about what you tell the kids.
There are a few separated/divorced support groups in NJ. Provide more info on your location and I'll see if there are any.
In NJ, we also have the rainbows program, www.rainbows.org which is peer grief counseling for children of death or divorce. Because your children are also experiencing your problems and need tools to help them cope.

Well, Bob, I think your plan of telling the children what’s in your heart and being completely honest is a good plan for your well being. You will feel better. On the other hand, your children will feel worse because you will indeed be putting them in the middle, and tacitly asking them to take sides.

My husband at one point threatened just what you did. I responded “Fine, but if you do, I’ll be honest with them too and tell them about z.” It was an effective tool in responding to the threat in my case, but had either of us actually carried out our threat, we would have done terrible harm to the children.
I do like your plan of contesting the divorce. Newly is in NJ and her h who filed dragged the thing out for years, and they wanted the divorce.

Thanks for the replies, all...

GG: I don't want to put my kids in the middle of this. But what should I do if she files for D? Just ignore it and keep the kids in the dark? They know something's going on now...they're a wreck, too.

If she files, should I just keep my mouth shut and not say anything until it all plays out? And, if we do divorce, what do I say then?

No, you can't keep things entirely secret from the children. First, you need to let them know that Mommy and Daddy are having some problems getting along, but that you each love them very much.
Then, you tell them that you don't know what exactly is going to happen but as soon as you do you two will tell them. Reassure them that they'll always have a home and that you and their mother will always love them.
It's best if you two can sit down together and tell them, but often this is impractical or risky. It takes a lot of self-discipline on the parts of both spouses to be very respectful in front of the children.
A great free resource is the school counselor. These people deal with all kinds of stuff all the time, and they can meet with your children and give your children someone neutral to talk to.
And the best thing about the school counselor is he or she doesn't give a rat's whatever about either you or your wife. The school counselor only cares about what's good for your children.
Another reason I advocate talking to the school counselor is that as a father you could get left out of the loop. The more proactive you are, the better, especially if you want to go for being custodial parent or 50/50 visitation.

PS: I didn't mean to focus completely on teh children, but that seems to be the most presenting feature right now.

Do you have support getting through this? How is your mood? Sometimes a support group or an Individual conselor is a huge help.

Are you in Plan A and for how long?

You are absolutely right to tell them the truth. That is not putting them in the middle. There is, as my then 12 year old said, nothing worse than lying to your kids, and keeping secrets from them is almost as bad as lying.

When the children find out the truth, if you have withheld information, they will feel doubly betrayed. Children who know why their parents divorced do not blame themselves - if they are given some mealy-mouthed explanation like "we just don't get along," they are going to search for an explanation that makes sense to them - and all too often they come up with the explanation that it is something they did, that they were not well enough behavior, etc.

One important reason for telling them that you don't want the divorce is that it is important that children do not grow up believing that divorce is ok if the spouses "don't get along" or "have problems." Rather, they should learn by word and deed that marriage is a commitment, that parents do whatever is necessary to work out their differences, that love is a verb.

Also, I would be careful about involving the school counselor. I'm sure that there are some good ones out there, but for the most part they have all been through the grad programs that adhere to the "do what makes you feel good" philosophy that has been rampant in psychology since the 1960-70's. In addition, all too many people choose counseling as a profession for dubious reasons, including, as Tom Lehrer said, wanting to "help people who are happier than they are." As an undergraduate psychology major in a highly competitive college, I took some courses with graduate students, and many of them were definitely not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier.

whole picture. And when one spouse blames the other for the demise of the marriage, it does put kids in the middle from the child’s point of view. Also there are some things children never need to know. That their mother likes whips and chains and their father only does missionary for example.

JPB, Nellie and I see things a little differently. I personally do not believe that marriages should be saved at any cost. I also believe that if the parents are going to split up, the children have to feel that they are blameless and that they are not stigmatized by the divorce. And, I believe that romantic love is a feeling, an emotional response to stimuli. Care type love that you have for your friend or your dog is closer to a verb.

With two such divergent views, you can see that ultimately, it’s for you to decide. You know your children and will have a clearer view on how the would respond.

Hi Bob:

What to tell the kids . . . I think the answer is age dependant. Your kids, in my opinion, are old enough to handle an honest discussion. Something to the effect that “Mom has decided to end the marriage and I will probably be living in a different place after the divorce. You two will have a room at my new house and I will always love you.” Then get ready for the water-works. This is really going to suck for your kids.

If you do not what a divorce do not act like it is O.K. with you. Tell them it is not, but being married is a choice. You can not force someone to stay married. Make sure the kids understand that this is an ending of a marriage . . . not the ending of the parental-child relationship. They will always have two parents, even if they reside at different locations.

Finally, do not move out of the house. If she wants the divorce let her move. You give up a lot of legal rights when you exit the marital home.

<small>[ May 14, 2004, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

I still disagree. Telling children that one person only wants the divorce makes that spouse out to be the bad guy which pulls on the children’s loyalties.
Are you all putting yourselves in the place of your children? If Bob says “I don’t want the divorce, but your mother doesn’t want to be married to me any more,” he’s asking the children to take sides. And at 10 and 13, children aren’t strong enough to tell parents to go jump in a lake.
Bob, I do think you can say to the children that you’re doing everything you can to try to resolve the situation. And if she does file for divorce, you can tell the children you tried very hard to make the marriage work, but didn’t succeed.
See, you can be truthful with out putting the children in a place of torn loyalties.

Hi Green:

I guess we just disagree. Telling the children that their Mother doesn’t wish to remain married to their Dad is not asking the kids to take sides. It is stating the situation. Saying that the Mother is horrible, selfish, mean, etc. is certainly not appropriate.

I don’t think that Bob should lie to his kids and pretend that he wishes to divorce. The exact wording of what he says to them is important. What you offered “Bob, I do think you can say to the children that you’re doing everything you can to try to resolve the situation. And if she does file for divorce, you can tell the children you tried very hard to make the marriage work, but didn’t succeed.” is fine. He is saying that he doesn’t want the divorce and is actively trying to resolve the situation. I think we are closer on this issue than it appears.

I think most people do not give kids enough credit. They can tell when something is wrong. In a situation like a pending divorce, he kids are going to know who is happy about it and who isn’t.

Wow!!!

Thanks, all...this site is a great help.

GG, my wife has agreed to one last try at couples counseling, but I'm not very confident. We will be meeting with our counselor, a former Catholic priest whom we both respect, sometime early next week when he gets back from out of town.

She says that she believes that there is basically no hope, but if she could see a way to make the marriage work, than she would give it another try. So, pray for us...

GG, can you help steer me to some more data on "Plan A"? Also, any info on "doing a 180", which I've heard about on this site a lot?

I DO rely on family & friends as de facto (i.e. free) therapists, but I will also most likely start going to single sessions with a counselor, either our couples counselor or someone else.

Finally, I have a another reason to stay together...I still love my wife, and she claims that she still loves me...just not like when we were first married.

Thanks again, all...God Bless You.

Newly,

I am in the Mount Laurel area...

also, can you tell me how H. dragged out the D. for several years? I've been told that here in Burlington County, it'll be fast tracked for "extreme cruelty" in 9-12 months....

I WANT to drag it out...I DON'T WANT IT TO HAPPEN!!!!

Thanks.

Newly,

I am in the Mount Laurel area...

also, can you tell me how H. dragged out the D. for several years? I've been told that here in Burlington County, it'll be fast tracked for "extreme cruelty" in 9-12 months....

I WANT to drag it out...I DON'T WANT IT TO HAPPEN!!!!

Thanks.

Bob, did you hit your wife? I'm just trying to figure out the extreme cruelty issue.

Go to the first thread on the Emotional Needs board for Plan A information. Also read Dr. Harley's Letters found on the main site.

Finally, assure your wife that the only way you want to stay married to her is if you BOTH can be happy and in love with each other. Like when you first married. That is the goal of marriage builders. Not simply to save a marriage, but to restore romantic love which in turn saves the relationship and the marriage.

That's why I like this program. It's geared toward saving the people's feelings for each other, not some generic, vague, institution.

GG,

Thanks for the reply...I have NEVER hit my wife...I would hope that God himself would strike me dead if I ever did that.

Having said that, I have EXPLODED at her 4-5 times over the last 5-6 years. Looking in the mirror, for the first time in years, I have to admit that this was emotionally abusive on my part. I was not vicious or mean in what I said, but I just "unleashed" my anger at her: VERY loud and sarcastic. No excuses...I was an [censored].

"Extreme cruelty" did mean just that, once upon a time in New Jersey. However, in the past 15-20 years, the courts have reacted to the legislature's refusal to allow "irreconciliable differences" in NJ by BROADLY interpreting this statute. Now, if you say something that makes the other person uncomfortable, you can be found at fault via extreme cruelty. No, I am not making this up. Over 1/2 of the divorces in NJ are on the grounds of "extreme cruelty". Sure, it's a rude place, but there's not THAT many cruel people in NJ.

I'm not real anxious to admit that I was extremely cruel...kids remember those kinds of things.

Thanks for the posts and replies, GG...it's helping me one day at a time...God bless you.

GG,

Anyone you know I can chat / post with, who can help me put together a "Plan A"? We do not have an adultery situation here, but my wife is determined to pull away from the marriage...

Thanks.

Marriage is hardly a "generic, vague institution." If you believe that, why ever marry? It is quite possibly the most important institution there is.

There is absolutely no upside to lying to the children by claiming that the decision to divorce is mutual when it is not. It is a) a lie, and b) you would be influencing them to believe that divorce is ok whenever you are "not happy" or there are problems. I for one do not want my kids to give up and run away as soon as they hit a rough spot - not from marriage, not from parenthood, not from their job, not from anything of importance.

Here's my two cents worth as a two time child of divorce, the first time when I was 6 and the second when I was 18.

Do tell your kids that mom and dad are having problems and have different opinions about what to do next.

Do affirm that you want to keep the marriage and your family together, but that it may not be possible.

DO NOT go into specifics at this point because you will cause loyalty conflicts with your kids. Your children have a right to love and respect both mom and dad, regardless of the issues between their parents. There is no way you can go into specifics with your kids that will not cause them to think "Dad wants us to be a family; Mom does not; therefore, mom is bad, dad is good." I can understand that you must have a HUGE desire to justify your position (which is the right one!), but you are not justified in doing so when it means hindering your kid's relationship with their mom. This dilemma that you are facing now is just a taste of what's ahead of you do divorce.

One of the greatest myths is that divorce solves problems. It doesn't. It simply transfers the tension of those problems to the children. Families are created to last a lifetime, so any break in that continuity will have reprecussions over the course of a lifetime.

For example, if mom and dad divorce when I'm 6. I'm not thinking about how that divorce will affect me when I'm 18 and Dad can't help with college because he has a new family to support. I'm not thinking about when I'm a college student and the pain I can't help but cause when I can only visit one parent during Christmas break because they live in different states, and if I pick the parent who has a girlfriend, I feel like I'm choosing the girlfriend over the parent who is alone. I'm not thinking about the utter absurdity of having to be nice to my mom's boyfriend--now husband--when we was part of the reason I no longer have married parents, and mom being mad at me for my bad attitude. I'm not thinking about how insecure I'm going to be when I start dating in my 20s and realize that I don't have a template of how to make a marriage work. I can't predict how parental divorce teaches me that I must "do as they say, not as tehy do" when they tell me to work things out with my brother when we fight, even though mom and dad--who chose to be together--didn't heed their own advice. I can't imagine how it will affect me when I have to choose between my dad and stepdad (both of whom I love dearly, in the best case scenario) to decide who walks me down the aisle on my wedding day. I can't predict the lose-lose situation I feel caught in when I making my wedding invite list when Dad doesn't want Mom's boyfriend there and decides he won't come if he does. I'm not thinking about how to handle the situation of how my parents and stepparents' awkwardness of being in the same room dampens the joy of my giving birth to my child. And I'm certainly now thinking ahead to the day when both mom and dad have elder care issues and I can only afford to have one live with me.

These are just a handful of the scenerios that children of divorce shared with me as I was writing "Generation Ex: Adult Children of Divorce and the Healing of Our Pain."

My heart grieves for you and the situation you find yourself in against your will. I pray that you will continue to keep open to reconcilation and guard your heart against the bitterness that must be assaulting you.

A few recommended reads for you:
"Sacred Marriage" by Gary Thomas
"The Walk Out Woman" by Alice Gray
"How to Act Right When Your Spouse Acts Wrong" by Leslie Vernick.
"In Every Pew Sits a Broken Heart" by Ruth Graham
"Second Chances" by Judith Wallerstein

Good luck!

Tell the mother they will know the entire truth, if thats the only thread you have left. If it keeps her around, without anger boiling, it could be the thread you need. However, if there wont be any amends, spare the children. They will be dealing with enough, adding fuel want help. Also you can be held accountable for bad mouthing your spouse in any way infront of the children. Besides, it is just not right. In time all children learn the truth. They are more aware then we realize. I deal with a young lady under 10 who asked her daddy why did her mom stop loving him. She was simply told that they would love one another for giving her to them. They weren't happy living together and could not do it any more. With her own observation, this child already realizes that momma just didn't love daddy any more. She still ask if he loves her momma and faithfully he says I will always love your mom. I love her for giving you to me. I don't know what the W has said to, or in front of the child, but I am positive it isn't all that nice. You will reap what you sow.