One of the (many) issues I have with the whole process of resolving marital disharmony is how divorce is viewed. It is almost as if it is some evil visited upon one...why is that? Serious marital disharmony (especially when bad enough infidelity occured) means the marriage pretty much only exists on paper anyways, and by inertia...if the marriage is in the 3rd harley state of withdrawal it is even represented by the psychological community as emotionally divorced, which is consistent with the other observed phenomena of married living single lifestyle....that is none (or few) of the special characteristics of safe/nurturing/joyous intimacy are present...very little time spend together, and much focus outside of the marriage (or on kids), friends, activities, extended family, work, hobbies etc....kind of cohabitating, roomates with safe sex.<p>When the crisis comes to a boil, and both parties focus attention on the marriage (usually cause one, or both, conclude they are not gonna live this way rest of their lives, and what do we do now), a lot of options are available, counselling, lot of self-help stuff, programs like MB, davis, and other gurus....basically an intial phase of education is in order....and various efforts and self-introspection (do I even want to be married anymore, etc.) takes place. Then one way or another stuff is tried....ok, here is my question...<p>The mindset seems to be "I" must save this marriage at all cost, divorce is a personal failure, and my life is over...why is that? No one is being put to death, human relationships have always been complex, and most of us have experienced rejection etc. as a normal part of the human condition. Assuming ones basic needs (essentially financial wherewithal to live properly) are met, and responsible parenting continues....what is this almost manic aversion to divorce? This often leads to recoveries of marriages that are so so at best (and only if everyone is on best behaviour, and constantly trying to not LB, and meet EN), or even worse people stay in moderately abusive and/or neglectful marriages, and just accept it as their lot in life. Why would one choose this life option? Why not let divorce simply be another boundary that defines the level of ones relationship? You still have the history, the kids, and can be supportive to each other (assuming both are decent human beings), you just don't have the stress of trying to maintain a level of intimacy that does not work for one or both. Instead what happens usually is one spouse is very angry over this outcome, and will not accept amicable divorce. It seems people just refuse to accept with grace redfining a relationship by divorce. This confuses me, cause if you cannot get along in divorce, how can you ever expect to be good in marriage (and why do you think you ever had a good marriage, most likely you were only in denial)? It seems to me divorce, and how people handle it, reveals much about the real truth of a relationship.<p>Anyways, maybe I am missing something, but it seems no one can "make" themself have feelings, and if the marriage is more stressful than nurturing, is probably cause two people are trying to maintain a level of intimacy that does not work for them. One does not have to defend feelings, one has a right to be who they are, yet we try to "make" a reluctant spouse feel what we want them too, and we exert tremendous pressures in this effort...why do we do that? We talk about happiness being a "choice", and looking inward and all that stuff when trying to convince a spouse to remain in a marriage, shouldn't that same stuff apply to a spouse that is angry/distraught over someone leaveing a marriage as well? Why should your marital status have anything to do with your state of mind, shouldn't marriage be a free choice, and if your spouse does not want to be married, shouldn't you let them go with peace? (assuming they haven't robbed you, and continue to act as a caring supportive person to your needs...if not, one can understand some anger and upset...but aren't you better off without them anyways then?). Shouldn't you be able (after some healing time) be able to craft a special relationship with an ex-spouse, and if not..again, why be married to someone you cannot even be friends with?<p>I just don't get the tremendous anger and pressure re divorce, as long as people are responsible in their obligations, parenting, and supportive....it kinda makes it clear most people view marriage as ownership, property, you are mine, and by gawd you will meet my needs, or I will hate your guts (or worse).<p>IMO divorce is just one more boundary re human relations....just like marriage is, it plays a role in expectations, and behaviour...just like marriage increases them, divorce moves the boundary back a little, lets people breathe and heal from the trauma marriage often inflicts...they can then more clearly reevaluate their lives, and can certainly reenter the marriage if they desire. It seems more like people are opposed to sepearation and divorce cause they feat losing the spouse alltogether, but I don't get this....you cannot lose something you never had....nor can you ever lose something you do have....it seems to me divorce simply clears the air some of the psycholgoical morass we find ourselves in in marriage, and is an appropriate and useful tool for resolving marital disharmony. The only way real love ever exists is when you can let it go with peace, and I see very very few people who understand that, or can live with it, they want gaurantees (committments re feelings).... I just don't get it I guess.

I feel differently. As part of the marriage contract we did after my H's affair, one of our rules was that divorce would NOT be considered an option. It hasn't been easy dealing with the infidelity, lies, betrayal, etc. of both my H and former best friend, but our marriage survived and I can honestly say I wouldn't be any happier divorced. Now, if he did it again.....?

thx maggie, and I understand what you are saying, but you cannot negotiate divorce away, if either of you decide to take that action, there is absolutely no way to prevent it...right? Likewise one could say but then I would think less of them, but the reality is that would be irrelevant to the one leaveing.... Marriage vows are essentially the same all over, promising never to leave, I made em too, and meant it....but when the reality of not wanting to be married occurs, you can no longer stay married, to do so would be insulting to the other partner.....you essentially say I don't want to be here, but I will stay until you let me go....most folks really don't want that kind of marriage....how about you....suppose your H comes to you and says (as radical honesty requires, if he comes to feel this way) I do not want to continue in this marriage, but I will stay as long as you want me too because I agreed....would you accept that kind of marriage?

I believe in my marriage and I know there are probably a lot out there that do to many factors are really and willing to throw it away.. But, this is something very personal that each person had to work out for themselves. What makes a marriage worth fighting for??? Some have never built on it from the start... some are just going through the motions and some have been together and had great familes... but prehaps something has happened to cause... this breakdowm... I know I will not give up.. until I know I have done everything in my power to change things... although my H had the A... I want him back and I cant change how i feel about that
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Thx morning, yes it is a pretty personal issue, no one can answer for another, just trying to find my own way too....but I do wonder alot about why we put so much value in the "picture" try to "save" the marriage, that we don't even really look very hard at why, or is it healthy. It seems people often are married for decades, only to find they really never knew who their spouse was at all...this puzzles me.... then we try to hang on.... and to what exactly I wonder.....I ask people regularly why, why are you married, why is anything else unacceptable.....usually I just get a blank stare. Marriage should be a safe,healthy,nurturing,joyous place, and if it isn't (practicing radical honesty) it seems only healthy to consider maybe we shouldn't be married....Good luck in your life.

Your labourious defense of divorse is intersting. You mention ots of resources that you could use to avoid a divorce, but I get the feeling that you have sold yourself on or have been sold on divorce and you are looking for an excuse to do it a lot harder than you are looking to save your marriage. John wrote that God allowed divorce only because of the hardness of mens hearts. He also wrote that if you do divorce that you should not remary anyone but your spouse. So If your anger from being hurt is so great that you cannot love [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] maybe you should seperate for a short time to regain your objectivity. But stop being dishonest and asking silly questions. Aren't you realy just trying to punnish someone? People hate divorce because it hurts, but that is what you want to do isnt it? I hope I am wrong.May Gods love melt your anger and still your wrath, and may it always be with you and yours.

wasn't a defense (laborious or otherwise) of divorce dsimmons, just questions and issues. Nor do I have any status to punish anyone, we enter the world alone, and we leave it alone, no one needs to be married to live, nor does one need to stay married to live.... my issue is the pressure exerted to keep people in a marriage whether they want to be there or not. That reduces people to property, something to be owned by another, for their needs. Marriage is not the piece of paper, it is the intent of two people, and when one does not want to continue in that state of intimacy we think of as marriage, it is done anyways, whether they get the divorce decree or not.....and in fact most marriages are not marriages, they are just two people cohabitating, and/or using each other...that is why for the most part marriage is not a safe,nurturing,healthy,joyous place...and if it is not, why continue it? Or worse yet, live in a condition NOT like God said marriage should be, and leave it as He as directed.<p>Your exprression sold on divorce is interesting, what does that mean? You prefer a world where divorce is impossible? How do you correct marital mistakes then? Divorce is essential for mental health, can you imagine the depression and misery if divorce were impossible, and you had to stay yoked to whoever you married, no matter how poor a choice it might be? What about the games people play to entice you into marriage....acting in ways they think you will find attractive, and changeing as soon as you are married? (just for one example).

IF I pegged you wrong I appologise, I said what I thought I heard and played it back to you largly to make you think.
You are right about being alone, I feel strongly that life is a lot better when you have a partner to share it with.
If some one truly views you as property then I would argue with them at length. I hope that this is only your view of things , sometimes when we are in pain our perspectives can be somewhat distorted.
God did not direct us to divorce, he allowed it "because of the hardness of mens hearts".
You wrote "Your exprression sold on divorce is interesting, what does that mean? " I meant that you seem to be set on that course of action with no other course of action as an option. I do not wish that divorce was impossible, my desire is that it would be unnecesary.
You wrote "How do you correct marital mistakes then?". I am not sure of the exact verse, look in a concordence and look under forgiveness. In Revalations it says that when God forgives our sins he casts them into the lake of forgetfulness and they are no more, and they never were. If we are to be forgiven by God he expects us to forgive one another. If we learn how to forgive from God and cast our mates trespasses into the lake of forgetfullness, then we have only love in our relationship.
YW "Divorce is essential for mental health". Only for those whom refuse to forgive and love.
In years gone by ,and in other lands marriages are/were arranged. Many people had very happy relationships, because they accepted their lot in life and made it work. As long as you believe that your marriage is dead, then it essentialy is. But it neednt be. If faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain, then could it not allow a hurt person to forgive their husband and allow them to open their eyes and hearts to love?
You obviously have been hurt. And if your keep carrying that grudge through life you will leave this world not only alone, but tired and miserable. Maybe I should have said this the first time instead of drawing you out but my other objection with divorce is it is FUTILE. Those who practice it keep repeating the same mistakes, and if they ever learn how to love, then that was all it would have taken to have fixed the very first one.
I asked Jesus to come into my heart when I was 10, I did not learn how to let him have my burdens untill I was 36. Of course I still find myself tired from trying to carry them myself from time to time, but he has never refused me yet when I let him have them back. You can get guidence from any pastor, or many others but the decision has to be yours. And If you and your husband both commited your lives to Christ you would soon find a lot grief in your world. When Jesus is in control you will find that he would rather die than to let a sinner suffer needlessly.
If you do go ahead with this horrible, wastefull thing, please for everybodys sake read the section of this site on preperation for marriage.
May God Be with you both.

Dan, your position is a common one, one I held myself at one time, but it is based on IMO a false presumption...that EVERY marriage is God's will. Since we have freewill, and marriage is a legal contract, I think people often confuse the two. They THINK cause they have a legal contract they are gauranteed a spititual contract, that we can impose our will on God....that makes no sense, freewill insures that we will often make marital decisions (freewill) in opposition to God's plan for us....what then? Does God have to recognize it? I think not, there is no other way we can impose our will over God's will, why could we here? I think many, even most marriages are not God's will, and the high divorce rates, and marital unhappiness in general are the consequence of not following Gods plan for us re marriage.....and with freewill, and the lust of youth, we marry for our own reasons, often almost totally ignorant of ourselves, our chosen mate, and how we fit. And in fact most people lie while dating, concealing things about themself they think unattractive, and artificially acting in ways they think will attract a mate....oftentimes after marriage one (or both) mates quickly change...why is that? And what does that imply about intent?<p>You mention forgiveness, I know you don't know me, have been here a year, and given much more info elsewhere re my personal circumstances..... but this is not about forgiveness, this is about assessing whether a specific marriage is a safe,healthy,nurturing,joyous place as God intended for marriate to be..... and if not, why is divorce not a perfectly legitimate option. Your position is about preserveing marriage cause it exists on paper (the marriage license)....my posiition is that is unimportant, that the nature of the marriage is what is important, and the mental health of the people in it. Further I do think God heals us, and is with us, and one of the ways He helps us is to open our eyes and guide us out of a marriage if we do not belong in it. There is no particular reason why a marriage should continue indefinitely just cause it exists....that implies one cannot make marital error, that no matter who you marry, you just make it work, that marriage is all about duty....I don't believe that, it makes no sense, and provides no proactive means for us to take care of ourselves, all it leaves is waiting for God to "fix" things....He doesn't work that way. If we ask for His help, that may mean He removes the scales from our eyes, and we see the marriage must end....doesn't have to end hatefully, or hurtfully, just a movement of a behavioural boundary away from expectation of marital intimacy...setting each free to be taken care of by God, and be open to his path for them....if a marriage ends badly, or in anger and animosity, I believe that reveals it was indeed not a spiritual marriage, oneflesh does not act in such a manner.<p>as for wishing divorce were unnecessary, don't we all, and indeed we would wish for other things as well....no greed, no vanity, no pride, no power mongering...many things...but then we would not be human....because we are imperfect we will make many mistakes, including marital ones, and divorce is not an evil thing at all, it is simply the NECESSARY counter to marriage, you need both. If marriage was a oneway street, immutable (like gravity is if you jump off a cliff) then we would simply not be human beings dan. For this reason I generally reject all arguments that place value on divorce....it is no better or worse than marriage, it is the same thing...it is simply about how we choose to live.....whether it is in a specific type of intimacy with someone, or not...if we choose it, we are free to leave it also....and that is how it must be....if we leave it in our hearts (hardheart) then staying in it legally is an abomination of God's will, we are abusing the marital concept. We can "make" ourselves stay in marriate as a duty (maintain the legal contract)..but we cannot make our hearts want to be there.... hearts speak truth, if you practice radical honesty....you can ignore them (denial, or dependentcy) but you cannot make them be oneflesh if God did not will it, and you will know the truth if you look hard enough.<p>Thank-you for your input, and I responded to your email.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I apreciate you openness to discussion and trust that this is something that you have considered at great length. However, I still disagree with you. I believe that love and forgiveness can overcome all obsticals. And I dont meant this as a dirty word but it sound to me that you are in denial.