I can't really figure out what is going on in my house these days. Five weeks ago we had discussed, and agreed that our relationship wasn't going anywhere good, and that neither of us thought we had what it took for each other to make it work. It was the most relaxed and at peace I have been in years. The suddenly, 3 days later, my H moves back in the house unannounced, unilaterally ending our separation. Now all I can guess is that either he's in some extreme denial, or decided to try force-feeding me Plan A.

It's painful for me, but since he moved back, I've hardly been able to speak to him. I can't look at him, or hide my sadness. The only way he will try to get me to talk is via e-mail. He will tolerate/ignore my silence all weekend long, and then first thing Monday morning e-mail me and ask me if there is something on my mind I would like him to help with (does he really not get it???). Last week in MC, I listened to him tell our doctor (when she said she had heard that he moved back in) that I asked him to!! I was stunned. Then she asked me if that was true and I told her that it was not... that we had never discussed it, and that he asked if I minded him staying over one night and then never left. He said nothing. I told her he had every right to be here in his own home if he wanted, and that he was generous to leave when I told him I needed space from him. Then I said that even though I wouldn't ask him to leave I was living in misery now. And so after 5 weeks he is still here, smiling at me whenever I look at him, talking sweet about me to the kids, doing chores around the house, bringing me flowers, basically kissing my a$$. I hate it. It all feels so forced and fake. Is he in Plan A? Knowing my A is over, is he trying to be ultra-sweet to me hoping that is all it will take for me just to accept that this is the way things are or that I will fall in love with this "new and loving H"? Fact is, it has had the opposite affect. His lying to our MC, his avoidance of the questions put to him, his pretending that nothing is wrong, his a$$ kissing (anyone who knows me knows I can't stand that anyway) have all made me disgusted with him and wanting to put an end to our marriage that much more. I really don't know what to do short of demanding a D - but I am in no position to just pick up and move out with 4 little kids and I don't want to traumatize them (although, I'm sure the atmosphere here in the house, as much as I try to hide it around them - is bad as well). Now he is blowing off MC (has cancelled 3 out of the last 4 weeks to play golf instead).

I know my H has read all of the MB stuff. I led him here. And this feels like what they suggest for a Plan A. But that is mutually agreed upon, discussed, effected, right? And is it a viable thing to do when one party has said they don't have any hope for the M and don't want it anymore? I'm lost...

NOTE: Advice for all you men who might consider doing this to get back with or try and restore harmony with your wives: don't.

<small>[ May 16, 2004, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Flygirl 13 ]</small>

Flygirl,

As an MB rookie, I'm hardly in a position to give a definitive opinion. But it sure sounds like it...

Why is it you feel so sad when you see him? Can you share why it hurts so much? The reason I ask is that my wife and I are in the same boat, and I am trying to execute Plan A myself. Basically, I am trying to win her back, she wants me to leave, and I don't want to leave my kids, home, and marriage. But it has dawned on me, slowly like everything else, that my pressing her, "sticking it out", etc., seemed like coercion to her...she even used the term "bullying". What makes us men hurt so you so much by trying to fix the damage we've done? Can you share that with me...I'm not trying to poke around in any open wounds...just trying to understand.

Best of wishes to you and your family.

Flygirl - I too would like to know why it is painful for you to look at him? Is that guilt you feel, is there something else that you are not telling us about you?

I being the BS, it hurt to look at my H, for all the lies, deceit, and betrayal he did. It hurt, that I invested my heart and love towards this man, and he turned the faucet off. It hurt that he did physically hurt me, and that he called me a F******B*tch so many times. It hurt, that my H no longer loved me. That he no longer cared what happens to us.

So why does it hurt? And if you agreed that he could spend the night, I do feel that you should of had an agreement, maybe on paper, for only one night. Did you two have relations, cause that should of been put on hold too? You seem, to be not sure of not wanting anything of this man, but then you state that you have 4 little ones to take care of. I believe, that you are in a fog sort of. Yeah, you had your cake with the other person. But get to reality, is this what you really wanted. Did you really want to break your marriage for a lustful desire. Most affairs of basically of lust. And if marriage happens, it ends in divorce rather quickly.

I see a little bit of hope in your post. Inner hope, but you seem to not want the barrier to be let down. Divorce is really hard on you, the kids and your husband. Divorce is not what God wants. My church had a great sermon 2 Sundays ago about adultery. And I now know that God hates divorce. It is allowed with abandonment and adultery. God does not want it, though. But God still hates divorce. Pharisees had questioned God?

I would look into yourself. Counsel for yourself and your kids should go to counseling. If your husband canceled counseling, I would make a point that he gets in counseling, or he moves out. Your family needs emotional, psychological help. Counseling is the only plan to get this together for the benefit of everyone in your family. This family is nothing to take lightly. For you two created these children out of love. Therefore, love needs to be brought forth for the whole family to seek the counseling that they need.

I would say, that your H is trying too hard. He should look at your ENs and see what it is that you really desire. He needs to have a life of his own too. For golf is a good exercise and emotional let out of difficult times. Let him golf, but not to take the place of couseling. He needs to have boundaries set, and you need to have boundaries set too. That is where the ocunseling is needed. Plan A is needed to show the love that you two had for each other at one time. We all were in love, and showed our dates that they were important to us. We all made mistakes. And yes, kids really drain the relationship of many many couples.

I do believe he is trying plan A, but needs some guidance to get on the right path. Give him your emotional needs list. This would be helpful. And counseling for the two of you.

Fly:

Man, I have read some pretty awful stuff on this site, but your rant wins hands down. You really are amazing. You had the affair. You humiliated your husband in ways I don’t think you will ever fully understand. He responds by trying Plan A. He sounds like a monster.

It’s painful for YOU to have him around? I bet it feels great to him knowing that his wife has been shagging someone else, is totally unrepentant, and now despises the sight of him. With you sporting the attitude that you have, my response, if I was unlucky enough to be your spouse, would be immediate: you would find you’re a$$ quickly deposited on the curb. Your clothes and other possessions would quickly follow. You are unhappy. You leave. Bye Bye.

Wow, I can’t believe your post. Why he would want to reconcile with you is beyond me.

Have a nice day. Perhaps show a little compassion to the man you betrayed. I have no advice at all.

CN

<small>[ May 17, 2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

Flygirl,

Why do you have to take the kids with you. Sounds like you want everything your way, so just leave if you don't like it.

But don't take his kids away just because you feel that way. I'm sure he'll let you see them if that's what you want.

As a male BS, who was never the WS, it is hard for me to find sympathy for you.

However, I can understand that you are not sure you want to trust that he will meet your needs. So why not just be patient, and try to find the good in what he is doing. You've been here and know that he does have to fill your love bank for you to feel love.

If you don't let him do it, you will not feel love.

The one thing I can guarantee, is that if you don't let him try, and do divorce, that is guaranteed hurt. If you let him try and show him the way to meet your needs, you do have a chance to feel more joy than hurt.

There will always be hurt, what are you doing to minimize the hurt?

Tony

Flygirl,

I think it's time for you to examine your feelings about why you're so upset with him. He's loving you and being kind to you. Are you angry because he isn't punishing you the way you feel you deserve? Because you feel that his love is the barrier between you and the OM? Or are you hoping that he'll turn angry and distant so that you can pursue a divorce and blame it on his reactions? The reasons for your feelings are important. Please be honest with yourself and try to figure out why you feel this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know my H has read all of the MB stuff. I led him here. And this feels like what they suggest for a Plan A. But that is mutually agreed upon, discussed, effected, right? And is it a viable thing to do when one party has said they don't have any hope for the M and don't want it anymore? I'm lost... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, Plan A is often something that's not agreed upon. Why should he need you to agree that he can improve himself and try to save the marriage? Do you wish to take away all of his choices? And Plan A can be effective whether the WS wants it or not. Where's the harm to you if he's trying to be a better husband and person? Is it fair of you to want him to be a worse person than he wants to be?

His love to you is a gift. You're making the choice to be repulsed by it. I hope you aren't too frightened that it's all a ploy to get you back so that he can "look down" on you if you stay. My H had that perception of me when we began recovery. I won't pretend that recovery is easy, but once he opened himself back up to being loved he realized just how good things can be. There is hope. There is forgiveness. By his actions, I believe your H truly loves you and wants a future with you.

Please think hard about how you want to make your decisions. Based on fear and guilt, or hope and love. You can redefine yourself if you begin to base your actions on more noble things.

Yep, I can see how this little piece of our relationship might make me sound very selfish, but I can only ask that until you understand the entire scope of things that you refrain from judging me so quickly. Our entire relationship has been very different.

Yes, I had an A. I never thought I would do anything like that ever. I have lived my life to the highest of standards - always trying to do the right thing. I fell into it b/c I was deeply lonely and deeply sad. I had begged my H for years to come closer to me, told him I felt unloved, told him I felt "convenient". He never understood the concept and told me so. He told me he would attempt to communicate more with me, but never made a single effort to do so. Not one. Now he is, but for me it's too late, I have run out of love and out of energy.

Now, out of the A and into over a year of both IC and MC, we have if anything grown apart - determined that much of what brought us together are not things that will keep us together. I have begun to realize I have immense resentment and anger towards myself for not forcing some of these issues before I fell out of love with him. My H is in a desperate state - wanting to preserve his family life, wanting to try and reach this state where he makes me happier so I will stay. But he is pessimistic about it all, thinking it is also too late - so he doesn't really want to invest too much now anyway or take risks. I think he's probably right in not doing so. I don't have the feelings for him anymore to respond in a way he deserves for someone taking risks and I can't really do much about that. You can force yourself into a life you don't want, but you can't force your heart into love if it just isn't there.

And I'm a religious person, but I don't share the belief that God picks your mate and God wants you to stay married even if you have no emotional basis for doing so. I think there must be an emotional foundation - groundwork for building upon which we have never ever ever had in our relationship. I was still looking to create that up until a couple years ago. Silly me, I thought that having kids would automatically create that... they just make things more challenging if anything. They create a forced bond as parents, but don't "create love", unfortunately.

I will be in a timeless fog. I have been reminded, via my A, of what a soul connection feels like - like I had early on in a few of my high school/college relationships. I think my H wants us to try for that now, and how I wish I could oblige but my heart says no, my heart says it's too late. There's too much blood in the water for me to desire him anymore. Too much hurt that I can't make go away no matter what he does. I think my A was indeed an exit one.

As for his hurt... he's extremely sorry that he didn't hear me before, he's told me that. Does he hurt? He feels unwanted, unneeded, unloved he says. He says it's just beginning for him. I'm sorry he feels this way, I'm sorry for us he's just beginning to feel it. He hasn't shared anything to this day about his inner feelings. He asks me to talk, and then says nothing, making me do all the talking about how I feel. Our counseling sessions are me bawling and my heart breaking and him saying nothing as always. He has sidestepped the A, if it bothers him still he shows no signs of it. He never really showed much pain over it in the first place. He just told me he was proud of me for confessing something I could have taken to the grave. I have been intermittantly suicidal over our situation, I haven't seen him shed one single tear - not one. It doesn't mean he doesn't feel it, but it's a level he could have gone to for a long period of time and connected with me, he has chosen not to for reasons all his own.

Now, I want to move on. I don't want to look up 5 years from now and still be so empty inside. His Plan A would have been tremendous before my A, two, three years ago. It would have changed the world. Now it's a day late, dollar short and it feels more like "okay okay, you've forced my hand... if I have to do these things so you'll stay, I will... only b/c you are forcing me to... not b/c I want to... I'll keep my house in tact at any cost b/c I can't take the shame of another breakup. And I know you don't want it now, but just forget about all that other stuff... pretend it never happened... and we can work this out... we WILL work this out."

The suddenly, 3 days later, my H moves back in the house unannounced, unilaterally ending our separation.
It’s his house. Why can’t he move back in?

It's painful for me, but since he moved back, I've hardly been able to speak to him. I can't look at him, or hide my sadness. The only way he will try to get me to talk is via e-mail.
Can ya’ blame him? You don’t want to be around him at all.

And so after 5 weeks he is still here, smiling at me whenever I look at him, talking sweet about me to the kids, doing chores around the house, bringing me flowers, basically kissing my a$$.
How crappy of a husband can you have. Geez, the NERVE that he would treat you this way.

PLan ABut that is mutually agreed upon, discussed, effected, right?
No. The ws has no say in it. It’s not agreed upon or even really discussed. Why should it be?

And is it a viable thing to do when one party has said they don't have any hope for the M and don't want it anymore?
Why wouldn’t it be viable to do?

NOTE: Advice for all you men who might consider doing this to get back with or try and restore harmony with your wives: don't.
Huh? Why not?

And I'm a religious person, but I don't share the belief that God picks your mate and God wants you to stay married even if you have no emotional basis for doing so. I think there must be an emotional foundation - groundwork for building upon
Don’t you think that marriage and children are a pretty darn good foundation to base a relationship?

which we have never ever ever had in our relationship.
You got married & had kids with someone you “never, ever, ever had any emotional connection with?

Silly me, I thought that having kids would automatically create that... they just make things more challenging if anything. They create a forced bond as parents, but don't "create love", unfortunately.
Correct. The love part is up to you to nurture and grow.

I will be in a timeless fog. I have been reminded, via my A, of what a soul connection feels like
No, you will be reminded of what lust feels like.

I think my H wants us to try for that now, and how I wish I could oblige but my heart says no, my heart says it's too late.
So why “listen to your heart” when you KNOW it is based on feelings and not necessarily what is right.

Now, I want to move on. I don't want to look up 5 years from now and still be so empty inside.
SO why not do everything in your power to be happy with this man you CHOSE to be married to &^ have children with?

His Plan A would have been tremendous before my A,
Plan A is for when there is an affair, not before an affair.

and we can work this out... we WILL work this out."
Again, that [censored]! How dare him think that way?

Hi Fly,
Sounds like you have given up on your husband. Here's are two interesting articles for you. You may not agree with it, (my separated wife doesn't), but it's intelligent and thought-provoking about marital happiness/unhappiness.

http://www.americanvalues.org/html/r-unhappy_ii.html

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020711/4263891s.htm

rick

Thank you, those are good articles and provide a perspective that I just cannot see myself right now. Believe me, if I had not been committed to my marriage (A or not) I would not be putting either one of us through this. Something is holding me back from asking for a divorce and I can't for the life of me understand why. It just is. Maybe I'm waiting for a miracle.

PS - Oh, & thanks Chris. I was just waiting for some (man) to come along, dissect my post and berate me... it's JUST what I need right now. Thank you. Strangers out there may see me as a selfish, inconsiderate b**** (maybe I am). But I am hurting and don't need any salt rubbed in. I'm here searching for answers and insight so I don't say needless hurtful things to my H.

PS - Oh, & thanks Chris. I was just waiting for some (man) to come along, dissect my post and berate me... it's JUST what I need right now. Thank you.
Hey, no problem. Glad I could help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
That's why this forum was developed. To get a perspective from someone outside your own situation and from other peoples experiences on how to handle a situation.

flygirl,

I know I haven't posted much in the past that you could value very much, but I do understand your feelings.

I think it would be helpful (to all) if you could make yourself available to him in some way. I mean by talking. By responding to his overtures. He is not doing things the way you think he should, he has not done so in the past, he is flunking at mc, and the truth is there is nothing he could do to make you want him as a spouse. That may well be the set of facts of this case.

But: If you hesitate to leave because of the kids, then I think you should find it in yourself to treat him as a human being, for the sake of the kids. It will be hard at first. You do not have to be mushy. Start with being respectful and kind. Pretend at each encounter that there is no history and no future goal. Live in the present and treat him as you would be treated in the same situation (I know, I know, you're not the kind to grovel as he is doing. You never will be...I know.)

No matter what happens, you are going to need to establish some kind of reliable, realistic and civil communication footing with him because you have children together and their needs in the years ahead will supercede yours and his.

But trust me--no harm whatever will ever have been done by your extending yourself this way. While life is going on and you are deciding whether and when to divorce, focus on being kind and communicative. I know your instinct is to be mean to him since you plan to divorce him, but...

It will serve you well to treat him decently no matter what the future is. It will help your spirit too. I can tell you feel bad about being how you are.

everlong, good advice as always. I don't really feel like being mean to him, though... even though I am angry and resentful. I just wear my feelings on my sleeve and I avoid talking so I don't say things I will regret. I'm also not very good at faking things. But you are right, being civil, kind doesn't mean anything other than being civil and kind. I sense when I speak to him that he reacts as if it's a "forgive, forget and move forward" overture and it scares me. I don't want to just sidestep all of this and pretend it doesn't exist (like I believe he wishes we could). But you are right, talking to him means nothing. And if he thinks it means something, I can tell him that too.

Maybe some of you will think I am nuts, but my biggest fear is that if I am kind, nice to him... that I will wake up one morning and he will be in bed, next to me, trying to come on to me, trying to re-establish our physical relationship. It terrifies me b/c I really don't want that anymore and I have told him that, but he truly believes that if I just gave him one chance, he could prove to me that he can satisfy me now like he never could before, or at least that he would try. I am terrified of feeling like I have felt for years... that I am just here to service him and now I have taken a stand for my own physical well-being and I am terrified of relinquishing that to go back to where we were. I am terrified that I wouldn't have the courage a second time to say "not like this anymore" and that I would just return and stay in the old, empty relationship b/c it was what "God and everyone else wants me to do".

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

everlong, good advice as always. I don't really feel like being mean to him, though... even though I am angry and resentful. I just wear my feelings on my sleeve and I avoid talking so I don't say things I will regret. I'm also not very good at faking things. But you are right, being civil, kind doesn't mean anything other than being civil and kind. I sense when I speak to him that he reacts as if it's a "forgive, forget and move forward" overture and it scares me. I don't want to just sidestep all of this and pretend it doesn't exist (like I believe he wishes we could). But you are right, talking to .him means nothing. And if he thinks it means something, I can tell him that too.

Maybe some of you will think I am nuts, but my biggest fear is that if I am kind, nice to him... that I will wake up one morning and he will be in bed, next to me, trying to come on to me, trying to re-establish our physical relationship. It terrifies me b/c I really don't want that anymore and I have told him that, but he truly believes that if I just gave him one chance, he could prove to me that he can satisfy me now like he never could before, or at least that he would try. I am terrified of feeling like I have felt for years... that I am just here to service him and now I have taken a stand for my own physical well-being and I am terrified of relinquishing that to go back to where we were. I am terrified that I wouldn't have the courage a second time to say "not like this anymore" and that I would just return and stay in the old, empty relationship b/c it was what "God and everyone else wants me to do".

My FEMALE friends (I've found that males don't really give objective advice very well in most cases - they all think I should dump him and find someone who will treat me better, that he is a man born to be single) - my female friends have some very deep insight. They think there is a lot of hope for my H. BECAUSE he is in MC and IC. BECAUSE he is trying. BECAUSE most men wouldn't even bother. And he is doing all of this BECAUSE he must truly love me, why else?

My FEMALE friends think that he is clueless in what to do. That he is barking, but up the wrong trees. That his is trying to do stuff, but it ain't the stuff that scores points with the estranged spouse. He is doing stuff he is supposed to do as a family-man and that's all well and good. My my FEMALE friends say that ain't sh** for me.

My FEMALE friends think my H needs a JOLT. He is back in his house, back in his favorite chair, hand massaging his jewels through favorite boxers with his hands inserted thru the trap door. My female friends think a real, honest-to-God separation, legal and all, would be the JOLT we both need to decide whether divorce is the path we want to travel. Not the fake, just not sleeping at home but doing everything else at home separation we had, but real legal bonafide separation.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by laura_lee:
<strong>

There was a man in the Bible, strangely enough, who took action when God was displeased that His children had married outside His will. This man took firm action to end those marriages. And God blessed him.

The Bible does not necessarily state that all marriages must continue.

Whether yours is a marriage that God wills to continue or to terminate is something that God will reveal to you as you sincerely seek His will for your life. Pat answers are not always the answer. So I'm leaving room for God to speak to you, from inside your own inner being - not the "soulish" realm... but your inner spirit - because He won't speak His will to you through an outside voice that belittles, insults, dissects, and berates you.

Love in Christ,

Laura </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Laura,

I'm drawing a blank regarding this story of the father who breaks up the marriages of his children. Can you show me where this is in scripture?

I do agree that God "allows" divorce, but he is also very clear that he hates it.

So I think if you ask God what he wants you to do, it seems it's pretty clear to me that His first choice is to not divorce.

However, I don't think God holds divorce out as a sin (say in the case of infidelity) any more evil than any other sin a man or woman commits.

I certainly don't know the pain that Flygirl feels, and perhaps I lashed out a bit. I know I'm hurting because I feel my WW is re-writing history to justify her A and allow herself to feel better.

Now, I'm doing the best I can at learning and taking ownership of my part of what went wrong eith the marriage.

However, when I'm called a selfish maniac, and impossible to negotiate with, by a woman who refuses to attend marriage counselling or even sit down together to pray for our children during this, it's a bit hard for me to show sacrificial love, and not become defensive.

I'm sorry if my pain bleeds over here, as it's not appropriate for me to take out my pain on flygirl.

Sorry,

Tony

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Laura,

I have to read a bit more OT. I'm going through Isaiah, Jerimiah, as well as Psalms and Proverbs right now. But I've not really focused on the historical books.

You are right that I don't know the state of anyone's heart.

I have to admit that it simply is a trigger for me to hear a woman question the sincerity of her husband.

Why?

Because my WW is doing that very thing. I know I shouldn't have called her tonight, but I did, and we got into a big "discussion" about how things will never work out, how I always invalidate what she believes or feels.

I'm pretty insistent that I don't believe divorce is the best answer for us, as I don't believe we've tried everything we can to work on the marriage. She said she has tried and has given up.

I tell her I know she has tried, and I didn't understand it all until now when she moved out, started her affair, etc.

She says she has lost faith in me, doesn't believe that I love her, doesn't accept that I do/did love her, just not in the way she wanted to experience love. I've asked her all throughout our marriage to show me how to love her, how she wants to be loved. She says that if loved her, I would know how to love her, it would come naturally to me.

I'm just so frustrated, and if you want to continue this conversation without hi-jacking the thread, then please, start another one.

If flygirl wants to talk to someone who is probably in a similar mental and emotional state as her H, then I'm happy to correspond with her.

Hey, if I can't save my marriage, or if I'm too impatient to wait for God to work His miracle in our lives, then at least I can share what might be a similar perspective as her H, in perhaps a less emotionally charged environment.

I'm not totally altruistic either, I'm sure it's good practice for me since I see flygirl and my W in a similar place as well.

Thanks,

Tony

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>