Hmmmmmmmm why do I pick guys this way? I have spent a lot of time in therapy about that. It has a lot to do with my parents.

I HATE, DESPISE, AM REPULSED BY passivity, yet I am passive in that I also hate conflict - I am a peacemaker. Part of this has prob been lack of self-esteem in the past b/c I have no problem with conflict at the office - IF it is someone who has made me feel safe to express myself. IF it is someone who has not, I avoid them like the plague b/c I always assume it is about ME, not about IT (work). So I hate the part of me that is passive, obviously. I hate disappointing others, and I hate failing. I used to never be able to admit I was wrong... boy has that changed! I am nowhere near as arrogant in that way anymore. Perfectionism sucks big time but I came out of the womb wired that way. My mom used to praise it as that generation did which feuled me more. I was the little adult, never really had a childhood. Their DV robbed me of my adolescence. I have been a grownup for 37 of my 37 years.

So... I hate passivity. My mother, in divorce from my father, was incredibly weak. She was passive. She let things happen to her instead of taking the reins. I resented her for that, despised her for that, and tried to take care of the household (@ 13 yrs old). I mowed, I cleaned, I cooked, I babysat, cared for the dog, washed the car... you name it I did it. Eventually I hated being the caretaker and resented her even more for depending on me to do so much. So I left, moved away, to live with my Dad.

Now, I HATE narcissistic behavior. That was my father. Everything he did was right, everything he bought was the best, you know... in the classic sense. He let me know how I was usually disappointing to him and it made me feel worthless. I made terrific grades, worked, did everything pretty well but he never praised my accomplishments. He only pointed out how I could have done it better. He made me get a job. He shacked up with woman after woman and left me in a townhouse all alone to cook, clean, grocery shop, laundry, you name it... I admired him, yet I despised him. I looked up to him, but didn't want to be like him.

Dating life... I was very frightened to date. Again, low self-esteem, didn't feel desirable. Afraid of se_x (not sure why). Everyone I had feelings for didn't for me. I had lots of men (boys) chase me, didn't want them. Never dated seriously but always seemed to attract older men. Never knew why. Dated one (younger guy) who was a terrific person. He was a virgin and so was I - although I never admitted it to him b/c I wanted to be older and "experienced". He was extremely happy, extremely optomistic, extremely caring, extremely intelligent, extremely good-looking (but too skinny), extremely crazy about me. He complimented me constantly. When I was down, he tried like he_ll to lift me up. Regardless, I pushed him away, told him he was too young, too inexperienced (haha). He was DEVASTATED. He chased me, I ignored him. Then, when he was gone for good, I tried to get him back. He was gone. I was hurt.

So back to dysfunction. I met my H.

What is it about this that attract(ed/s) me? I think the caregiving... I've been doing it all my life. The helping others. The feeling important by doing so (I don't feel important to anyone really but my kids). The feeling special by doing so. That's how I start intimacy. And if it is reciprocated by love, attraction, care for me then I am hooked (OM). I am not an easy target, believe me. I thought I was inpenetrable by other men, regardless of how bad my M was getting. I didn't KNOW OM was dysfunctional - not at all. I just knew he asked how I was doing, cared to listen, gave me a rose, told me I was beautiful, told me the way I carried myself with confidence lit up a room... all the things I never got from H he said, almost like he knew I was devoid. And I was weak, so I acquiesced. Then I got even more hooked as I learned he "needed" somebody to care about him, to love him, to support and nurture him. Yes, that was right up my alley! So, I did it and it wasn't long before I was fully submerged in an A. He was in love with me - but deep inside the dysfunction kept me at a safe distance... not the frying pan to the fire. It's not what I want to start all over again (although he is quite diff from H in his issues).

You may be right, I may not be able to handle a giver. But my friend is most certainly one and I think he is just wonderful. There is a limited amount of physical attraction (primarily him - he is a guy after all) between us but there is 0% chance anything will happen. I have my guard up, and I am close friends with his wife and adore his kids. I would never, could never do that to them, or him, even if he lost his mind and tried something.
However, if he had a clone.... but who knows when you get into a relationship beyond lust if I would accept the changes or not. Who knows???

I just know that this pattern of gravitating towards men that "need fixing" is tiresome. I want a man that can "fix" me for a change!!!!

PS I have mentioned before that I have "challenges" to overcome sexually. It has been very frustrating, especially since my H was all about himself. My mother has it, my sister has it worse than me. I can't understand as capable a person as I am that I can't clear certain "hurdles". But I mention it b/c I think it all is related to my fear of failure or embarrassment somehow. My fear of losing control. That's strange, b/c clearly I don't have control of my M, and clearly I don't have control over my own body. And now it's a case of mind over matter. I think in some ways I am a control freak but I sure have lost control of my life in many ways.

I was trained quite well, as a child, into being a giver (love those milk-bone dog treats! hahaha)

As a giver, I am ME. That is who I am.

In college, another giver, a bigger giver than me I think, fell for me very hard. She was nice looking, smart, had her own set of interests, wanted to make me happy (read - se_x), and, guess what, I wasn't interested.

There was no se_xual tension. Everything came too easy. She looked up to me, and I felt fatherly.

Then, I met another giver. However, like you, she was a point in her life where she needed to take (big). Well, I was in my usual role, as a giver. This relationship, well, it took, but I was far more into it than her. Why? Well, I think, cuz my psycho-se_xual dynamic was in place, being a giver, while she was out of whack, as a taker.

I think it's dirty trick! Matching givers with takers (my wife, btw, is a MAJOR taker). She could teach! hahahaha

You have said, you are nice looking, successful, and have zing. Those are man attracting traits, flygirl. I'm supposing, among those that gave you a second look, were some givers. But, you picked the takers.

So, with me, how do you feel exactly? This is not your usual role. Usually, you are supporting someone else. This, however, IS my usual role. It seems, you feel a little uncomfortable. You are always thanking people, and such.

Do you feel a little awkward, being in the role of the one that is being supported? I think if you can answer that "no", you do not feel awkward, then you are growing.

This may be even harder for you, than responding to those who complement you on your looks.

Remember the 3 requirements I gave to my wife, well, the essentially required that she give. And, at first, it WAS awkward.

But, after awhile, it was better, because there was balance.

This is not to say, that I am GOOD at being given to. I'm not. Our conversation, would not work as well if things were reversed. You are farther along in this, than I am.

You, are a toughy! Hahahaha

Now, to your note

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Flygirl 13:
<strong> Hmmmmmmmm why do I pick guys this way? I have spent a lot of time in therapy about that. It has a lot to do with my parents.

Seems you were rewarded as a child, only for what you gave. So, you became that....

Also, I think there are degrees of this give/take thing. Seems, you REALLY need to give. And feel out of kilter, otherwise. So, you can be put off balance rather easily. Is this right?

and I hate failing....

But, you never do...


I used to never be able to admit I was wrong...

All women do this (hahaha)


boy has that changed!

Well, you had an affair. Look, there are many shades of gray, in this regard. People seem to think, particularly on this site, that Marriage is next to God or something. It is a just an (important) relationship.

Who says that that relationship ALWAYS should be at the top of your priorities?

Couldn't SOMETHING, at SOME TIME, take a higher priority for you? What if, in your development, the next step took you outside of your marriage. For you, as a person, it may have been the right thing. Your marriage took a hit to the gut, true.

But, you seem like a highly moralistic person to me. I think you deserve the benefit of the doubt. Your husband seems to agree with me. If you were my wife, and if I have things right, I would be highly concerned about you, because you just acted in a way I KNOW you don't like AT ALL. Something serious is amiss....

I am nowhere near as arrogant in that way anymore.
You are a little....

Perfectionism sucks big time but I came out of the womb wired that way.
Maybe, but I think your upbringing is nearly as bizarre as mine, and it played on you too..

So... I hate passivity.
Me TOO!

My mother, in divorce from my father, was incredibly weak. She was passive. She let things happen to her instead of taking the reins. I resented her for that, despised her for that

Well, passivity means, that others have to take care of you. And, if they don't, well, you are fu___ed.


And tried to take care of the household (@ 13 yrs old).
A pretty big job. Hey, look, you signed up for another really big job.... 4 kids, and a teenage husband!

I mowed, I cleaned, I cooked, I babysat, cared for the dog, washed the car... you name it I did it.
Did you roof the house?

Hahahaha

Eventually I hated being the caretaker and resented her even more for depending on me to do so much.
As, you hate being married to your husband now...

So I left, moved away, to live with my Dad. Now, I HATE narcissistic behavior. That was my father.
And, OM?

He shacked up with woman after woman and left me in a townhouse all alone to cook, clean, grocery shop, laundry, you name it...
So, do you have trouble trusting men?

Dating life... I was very frightened to date. Again, low self-esteem, didn't feel desirable.

Yet, it is true, that guys like spunky women like you.

Afraid of se_x (not sure why).
Well, se_x IS intimate. Ever have se_x with someone that you really weren't close to? It's WEIRD. It's physical intimacy. It's, for a woman such as yourself (I'm guessing), a big deal to give yourself to a man. For you, it probably means lots. So, se_x, is a BIG deal. Do I have this right?

Never dated seriously but always seemed to attract older men. Never knew why.
Hmmmmm.... have no idea...

Dated one (younger guy) who was a terrific person. He was a virgin and so was I - although I never admitted it to him b/c I wanted to be older and "experienced". He was extremely happy, extremely optomistic, extremely caring, extremely intelligent, extremely good-looking (but too skinny - COMEON FLYGIRL!!!), extremely crazy about me. He complimented me constantly. When I was down, he tried like he_ll to lift me up. Regardless, I pushed him away, told him he was too young, too inexperienced (haha). He was DEVASTATED. He chased me, I ignored him. Then, when he was gone for good, I tried to get him back. He was gone. I was hurt.

Been there, did that...

So back to dysfunction. I met my H.

What is it about this that attract(ed/s) me? I think the caregiving... I've been doing it all my life. The helping others. The feeling important by doing so (I don't feel important to anyone really but my kids). The feeling special by doing so. That's how I start intimacy. And if it is reciprocated by love, attraction, care for me then I am hooked (OM).


I am not an easy target, believe me.
Obviously, most guys would not stand a chance with you. But, think a certain situation makes you easy. Plays into your psycho-se_xuality. YOu listed the situation, above. Could your se_x be tied to caregiving?

In se_x, sometimes the guy leads and sometimes the girl does. Do you like to lead, or be led?

You may be right, I may not be able to handle a giver.

This is very interesting to me. Cuz, I'm not sure, I could handle a giver either....

That, is just too weird.

Think about it!

But my friend is most certainly one and I think he is just wonderful.

Well, almost ALL of my female friends, depend on me for this or that....

The trouble is, with this opposite attracts thing, is what if you are a GIVER (caps intended). Then, your opposite, is a TAKER.

Yuck.

I just know that this pattern of gravitating towards men that "need fixing" is tiresome. I want a man that can "fix" me for a change!!!!

But, you just punt them....

PS I have mentioned before that I have "challenges" to overcome sexually.

No orgasm?

If not, get a vibrator.

I can't understand as capable a person as I am that I can't clear certain "hurdles".

Are you relaxed, or uptight in se_x?


But I mention it b/c I think it all is related to my fear of failure or embarrassment somehow. My fear of losing control.
OK......

That's strange, b/c clearly I don't have control of my M, and clearly I don't have control over my own body.
Seems you have a lot of control over your body. You are an athlete. Do you have control alone?

And now it's a case of mind over matter. I think in some ways I am a control freak but I sure have lost control of my life in many ways.

You know what? Sometimes, you need to take a step back before you can go forward. Taking the step back, is PART of going forward. YOu have made many bold moves, Flygirl. You are not just sitting back, PASSIVELY. You are attempting to address what makes you unhappy. THAT, is such a good role model for your kids. Your husband, probably, is overwhelmed by you.

You are willing to look at things, from all sides. You employ good logic. I think, you should be feeling better, because, you are not where you were before your affair, right?

Anyway, ANOTHER long letter. Sorry for the long read.....

Take Care,


</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ June 02, 2004, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: MLM2 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MLM2:
In college, another giver, a bigger giver than me I think, fell for me very hard. She was nice looking, smart, had her own set of interests, wanted to make me happy (read - se_x), and, guess what, I wasn't interested. SOUNDS FAMILIAR

I think it's dirty trick! Matching givers with takers (my wife, btw, is a MAJOR taker). She could teach! AND I AM A GIVER AND MY H IS A TAKER... TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE. NO GIVE, WELL... HE GIVES SAFE THINGS, LIKE MONEY, THINGS... THINGS THAT DON'T RISK HIS PERSONAL COMFORT

You have said, you are nice looking, successful, and have zing. I SAID I WAS SUCCESSFUL, I SAID OTHERS SAID I WAS GOOD LOOKING, ZING WAS NEVER MENTIONED!!! hehehe

Those are man attracting traits, flygirl. YES, I KNOW

I'm supposing, among those that gave you a second look, were some givers. But, you picked the takers. YES I DID.

So, with me, how do you feel exactly? This is not your usual role. Usually, you are supporting someone else. This, however, IS my usual role. It seems, you feel a little uncomfortable. You are always thanking people, and such. I AM NOT UNCOMFORTABLE B/C YOU ARE ON THE OTHER END OF A KEYBOARD. IF I HAD TO SIT IN A ROOM WITH YOU, I MIGHT BE. HOWEVER, MY FRIEND HERE AT WORK I AM MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT ANYONE. WHY? B/C HE DOESN'T JUDGE ME, HE GIVES ME CONFIDENCE WITH THE WAY HE TALKS TO ME, HE MAKES ME FEEL SAFE TO CONFIDE, HE OPENS ME UP, HE IS HONEST WITH ME BOTH GOOD AND BAD.

Do you feel a little awkward, being in the role of the one that is being supported? I think if you can answer that "no", you do not feel awkward, then you are growing. I'M NOT SURE, I HAVEN'T BEEN IN THAT ROLE EXCEPT IN MY FRIENDSHIPS. I AM VERY INDEPENDENT BUT THAT IS SELF-PROTECTION MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE (MY "SAFETY-NET")
You, are a toughy! YOU'RE DAM RIGHT!!!

Hmmmmmmmm why do I pick guys this way? I have spent a lot of time in therapy about that. It has a lot to do with my parents.

Seems you were rewarded as a child, only for what you gave. So, you became that.... OK

Also, I think there are degrees of this give/take thing. Seems, you REALLY need to give. And feel out of kilter, otherwise. So, you can be put off balance rather easily. Is this right? IT IS WHAT I HAVE DONE MY WHOLE LIFE. IT FULFILLS ME, MAYBE IT'S WHY I AM SUCH A GREAT PARENT

and I hate failing....

But, you never do... OH YES I DO... AFFAIR!!!


I used to never be able to admit I was wrong...

All women do this (hahaha) I WAS MORE LIKE MY FATHER IN THIS WAY. ARROGANT, EGOTISTICAL

boy has that changed!

Well, you had an affair. Look, there are many shades of gray, in this regard. People seem to think, particularly on this site, that Marriage is next to God or something. It is a just an (important) relationship. DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THIS BOARD. THERE ARE MANY GOOD PEOPLE HERE, BUT IN SOME RESPECTS (LIKE IN RECOVERY) IT SEEMED LIKE "TOUGH LOVE", ALANON, CATHOLIC SCHOOL. I AM A CHRISTIAN, BUT I DON'T NECESSARILY BELIEVE ALL THIS "GOD WANTS THIS AND GOD WANTS THAT" FOR EACH OF US. I BELIEVE GOD WANTS US TO LIVE AS GOOD, MORAL PEOPLE BUT THAT HE DOESN'T DICTATE MARRIAGE ON EARTH. PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES, SOMETIMES THEY MAKE MISTAKES IN WHO THEY CHOOSE TO MARRY. NOT SAYING I DID OR DIDN'T. BUT I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD SPEND YOUR LIFE UNHAPPY TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK WITH SOMEONE REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES. I BELIEVE GOD WANTS US ALL TO BE HAPPY AND WORSHIP HIM. IT WOULD BE NICE IF LIFE WERE LIKE A FAIRY TALE AND WE LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER. BUT IT AIN'T. A LIFE, THESE DAYS, IS LONGER THAN EVER. AND LIFE IS MORE STRESSFUL THAN EVER. AND LIFE IS MORE TEMPTING THAN EVER. AND LIFE IS MORE SELFISH THAN EVER. MANY THINGS THAT CAN SABOTAGE A MARRIAGE. MY POINT IS, IT'S TOUGH EVEN IF YOUR RELATIONSHIP IS FRUITFUL AND SMOOTH TO MAKE IT OVER THE LONG HAUL. I THINK EACH SITUATION IS DIFFERENT AND NOBODY SHOULD BE COERCED INTO STAYING IN A RELATIONSHIP B/C "GOD SAYS SO". THEY SHOULD STAY B/C THEY CAN LOVE EACH OTHER AND MAKE EACH OTHER HAPPY, REGARDLESS OF THE CHALLENGES THEY FACE. MY GRANDPARENTS DID THIS THRU 65 YEARS AND DEPRESSION, WARS, POVERTY, YOU-NAME-IT. BUT THEY LOVED EACH OTHER DEARLY, MADE THEIR RELATIONSHIP WORK YEAR AFTER YEAR AND DIED LOVING EACH OTHER AS IF IT WERE THE FIRST DAY THEY MET. THEY ARE MY ROLE MODEL AND THE TWO I ADMIRE MOST IN THE WORLD, YET, I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO THOSE THINGS IN MY M. MY FAULT? HIS FAULT? OR JUST NOT THE RIGHT RELATIONSHIP???

Who says that that relationship ALWAYS should be at the top of your priorities? NO ONE

Couldn't SOMETHING, at SOME TIME, take a higher priority for you? MY KIDS DO. A HIGHER PRIORITY, YES. A BETRAYAL LIKE AN A, NO.

What if, in your development, the next step took you outside of your marriage. For you, as a person, it may have been the right thing. IN MANY WAYS IT WAS, B/C IT WAS EYE-OPENING

Your marriage took a hit to the gut, true. NOT REALLY, FROM THAT. NOT REALLY AT ALL. MORE FROM MY UNHAPPINESS WHICH HAS BEEN THE DRIVING FACTOR. MY H WOULD JUST AS SOON FORGET IT ALL AND GO BACK TO FAKING IT

But, you seem like a highly moralistic person to me. OH, YOU HAVE NO IDEA...

I think you deserve the benefit of the doubt. Your husband seems to agree with me. If you were my wife, and if I have things right, I would be highly concerned about you, because you just acted in a way I KNOW you don't like AT ALL. Something serious is amiss.... HE IS HIGHLY CONCERNED. HIGHLY INTIMIDATED. HIGHLY AFRAID. HE IS FROZEN IN HIS TRACKS. AND I AM NOT DOING ANOTHER THING UNTIL HE DECIDES TO LIFT HIS FEET. BALL IS IN HIS COURT FOR ONCE. I AM TIRED OF DRAGGING THIS M ALONG BY MYSELF.

I am nowhere near as arrogant in that way anymore. You are a little.... REALLY???????????

Well, passivity means, that others have to take care of you. And, if they don't, well, you are fu___ed. YES, AND MY H IS F___CKED (AND NOT IN THE WAY HE WANTS)

Hey, look, you signed up for another really big job.... 4 kids, and a teenage husband! YES, I DID. BUT MY 4 KIDS ARE THE MOST INCREDIBLE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. I CAN'T BELIEVE SUCH BEAUTIFUL WONDERFUL CREATURES CAME OUT OF, ARE A PART OF ME!!!!!!!!!

Eventually I hated being the caretaker and resented her even more for depending on me to do so much.
As, you hate being married to your husband now... BINGO

So I left, moved away, to live with my Dad. Now, I HATE narcissistic behavior. That was my father.
And, OM? NO, NOT NARCISSISTIC REALLY. FULL OF SELF-PITY MORESO. "EVERYTHING I TOUCH GOES TO HE_LL, I AM A LOSER, I CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT, I HAVE RUINED MY FAMILY, LIVING WITH ME HAS TURNED MY WIFE FROM A HAPPY GIRL INTO A RAVING BEEEOTCH", ETC ETC ETC... YOU CAN SEE WHAT KEPT ME AT ARMS LENGTH. IT WAS ABSURD. HE WAS IMPOTENT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT HIS PROBLEMS OR FOR HIMSELF. HE WAS CONTROLLED BY WHAT OTHERS THOUGHT, DID, SAID. HE WAS PASSIVE IN THAT HE COULDN'T TAKE CONTROL OF HIS LIFE BUT INSTEAD CHOSE TO SIT AROUND AND MOAN AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

He shacked up with woman after woman and left me in a townhouse all alone to cook, clean, grocery shop, laundry, you name it...
So, do you have trouble trusting men?
YES, NOT TO HURT ME

Afraid of se_x (not sure why).
Well, se_x IS intimate. Ever have se_x with someone that you really weren't close to? MY H, THROUGHOUT MY MARRIAGE

It's WEIRD. It's physical intimacy. It's, for a woman such as yourself (I'm guessing), a big deal to give yourself to a man. For you, it probably means lots. So, se_x, is a BIG deal. Do I have this right? ABSOLUTELY YES!!!!!!!!!!

I am not an easy target, believe me.
Obviously, most guys would not stand a chance with you. NO WAY. PEOPLE EVEN JOKE ABOUT THAT (AT WORK)

But, think a certain situation makes you easy. Plays into your psycho-se_xuality. YOu listed the situation, above. Could your se_x be tied to caregiving? I THINK SO. CREATES INTIMACY FOR ME, WHICH LEADS TO EMOTIONAL CONNECTION WHICH IS THE TRIGGER FOR SE_XUAL ATTRACTION IN WOMEN

In se_x, sometimes the guy leads and sometimes the girl does. Do you like to lead, or be led?
DEPENDS. I LIKE TO LEAD IF IT'S SAFE. I USUALLY LET MYSELF BE LED, AND THEN TAKE THE LEAD AT SOME POINT. IF I REALLY FEEL SAFE, THEN I CAN TAKE SOME BIG CHANCES WITH IT, DO ADVENTUROUS THINGS.


The trouble is, with this opposite attracts thing, is what if you are a GIVER (caps intended). Then, your opposite, is a TAKER.

Yuck. DITTO, YUCK!!!

I just know that this pattern of gravitating towards men that "need fixing" is tiresome. I want a man that can "fix" me for a change!!!!

But, you just punt them.... YES, THAT'S THE RUB

PS I have mentioned before that I have "challenges" to overcome sexually.

No orgasm? NO ORGASM

If not, get a vibrator. TRIED 14 DIFF KINDS. NO DICE

I can't understand as capable a person as I am that I can't clear certain "hurdles".

Are you relaxed, or uptight in se_x? WITH H, UPTIGHT. WITH OM, WAS MOSTLY (BUT NOT COMPLETELY) RELAXED

Seems you have a lot of control over your body. You are an athlete. Do you have control alone? NO, NOTHING ALONE. I LOSE CONCENTRATION. I THINK, DEEP INSIDE, FEAR OF FAILURE. FEAR OF NOT MAKING IT HAPPEN. SO I LET MY MIND WANDER, DON'T CONCENTRATE, DON'T GIVE IT MY BEST EFFORT. I CAN'T DO IT I TELL MYSELF. I'M NOT WIRED THAT WAY, I JUST CAN'T PHYSICALLY CLEAR THAT HURDLE.

Your husband, probably, is overwhelmed by you. I THINK HE ALWAYS HAS BEEN. HE LOVES WHAT I AM, BUT CAN'T DEAL WITH WHO I AM.

You are willing to look at things, from all sides. You employ good logic. I think, you should be feeling better, because, you are not where you were before your affair, right? NO. BUT NOT HAPPY EITHER. MISERABLE.

THANKS AS ALWAYS
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

[QUOTE]
ZING WAS NEVER MENTIONED!!!
I guess that was me!

I'm supposing, among those that gave you a second look, were some givers. But, you picked the takers. YES I DID.

So, then, you feel better, being the person in the relationship that gets things done, runs things, and such.

Do you feel, that you could only have such a role, with a taker? This is way too broad, but generally, takers are such because they need to be, and I have found are generally under-achievers across a broad spectrum. Most things in the world get done by givers.

I AM NOT UNCOMFORTABLE B/C YOU ARE ON THE OTHER END OF A KEYBOARD.

So, the role you can do. Just, not under the spotlights?

MY FRIEND HERE AT WORK I AM MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT ANYONE. WHY? B/C HE DOESN'T JUDGE ME, HE GIVES ME CONFIDENCE WITH THE WAY HE TALKS TO ME, HE MAKES ME FEEL SAFE TO CONFIDE, HE OPENS ME UP, HE IS HONEST WITH ME BOTH GOOD AND BAD.

It's good that you have a friend such as that. I bet, you are different with him, than with most anyone else, as well...

I AM VERY INDEPENDENT BUT THAT IS SELF-PROTECTION MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE (MY "SAFETY-NET")
There is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy at work, here. Cuz, only a dependant can match up well with a highly independant. So, your match, probably will not be a highly successful person. They will let you down, and you will feel a need to be independant and in charge. I have this going on too.

Hmmmmmmmm why do I pick guys this way? I have spent a lot of time in therapy about that. It has a lot to do with my parents.

Yep, even at our ages, we are still the children of our parents. But, you are starting to take over that role for yourself.

IT FULFILLS ME.....
Well, maybe in part. Seems, you want to be fulfilled in more ways, though.

and I hate failing....
I think everyone doesn't like to fail. I think everyone sets themselves up to succeed; the difference is simply the arena. Highly successful people take on difficult roles in life; others, pick easier ways to succeed. Now, I don't know many, that have signed up for the workload you have....

Couldn't SOMETHING, at SOME TIME, take a higher priority (than your marriage) for you? MY KIDS DO. A HIGHER PRIORITY, YES. A BETRAYAL LIKE AN A, NO. Well, here, maybe this is a bit simplistic. And, I'm not trying to say that your affair was morally "good". But, it seems to me that your affair wasn't about "betraying" per se. I think, in fact, that some affairs are TO BETRAY. That is the point of some. Childish, true. But, I've read about that. It seems to me, that your affair was part of a broader crisis. That you tried to address that crisis, first, through the marriage. He failed you there. Then, you looked elsewhere. And, still are.....

(your husband) GO BACK TO FAKING IT. Well, we haven't talked about him. Did you ever show him this side of you, before? Maybe, he thought you were an A, but instead, now finds you to be a B. He now finds himself married to someone ELSE. Maybe, not what he bargained for. Do you think, your marriage, has been good, for him?

But, you seem like a highly moralistic person to me. OH, YOU HAVE NO IDEA...
So, you'll preach, huh?

AND I AM NOT DOING ANOTHER THING UNTIL HE DECIDES TO LIFT HIS FEET. BALL IS IN HIS COURT FOR ONCE. I AM TIRED OF DRAGGING THIS M ALONG BY MYSELF.
Well, Flygirl, people have different expectations for their marriage. Like I mentioned earlier, some people believe that their marriage has religious elements. Some view it in different ways. As for me, I would not have ever bothered getting married, if I didn't have kids. I think that the marriage structure is best for raising kids, so I got married. Otherwise, without kids, what is the point? I think, that marriage, and monogomy, make most sense in the view that kids take 20 years to mature. And, I think natural parents ARE THE BEST SHOT a kid has (I'm not saying that Step-parents are NEVER better). Just playing odds, here. So, we became monogomous. But, how much do you resemble the person you were, when you got married? I think, it is very odd, that a relationship can be REALLY good, forever. Takes two, really unusual, people.

And, OM? NO, NOT NARCISSISTIC REALLY. FULL OF SELF-PITY MORESO. "EVERYTHING I TOUCH GOES TO HE_LL, I AM A LOSER, I CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT, I HAVE RUINED MY FAMILY, LIVING WITH ME HAS TURNED MY WIFE FROM A HAPPY GIRL INTO A RAVING BEEEOTCH", ETC ETC ETC... YOU CAN SEE WHAT KEPT ME AT ARMS LENGTH. IT WAS ABSURD. HE WAS IMPOTENT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT HIS PROBLEMS OR FOR HIMSELF. HE WAS CONTROLLED BY WHAT OTHERS THOUGHT, DID, SAID. HE WAS PASSIVE IN THAT HE COULDN'T TAKE CONTROL OF HIS LIFE BUT INSTEAD CHOSE TO SIT AROUND AND MOAN AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.
Do you still have heart pangs for him?

It's WEIRD. It's physical intimacy. It's, for a woman such as yourself (I'm guessing), a big deal to give yourself to a man. For you, it probably means lots. So, se_x, is a BIG deal. Do I have this right? ABSOLUTELY YES!!!!!!!!!!
You do realize, that the tie you want with a guy, is REALLY REALLY tight, right? You mentioned one role model, your grandparents. Do you know of any other marriages, that you think are great?


I am not an easy target, believe me.
Obviously, most guys would not stand a chance with you. NO WAY. PEOPLE EVEN JOKE ABOUT THAT (AT WORK)
Do you like that this is the case?


Now, as I mentioned, I'm not timid. So, about the se_x....

PS I have mentioned before that I have "challenges" to overcome sexually. No orgasm? NO ORGASM

Ever? Never Ever?

Do you know where your G-Spot is? If not, look it up. Then, and this will be hard by yourself, but, stimulate that and your cl_it at the same time.

If you've never had an orgasm, you need to make it a priority....

If not, get a vibrator. TRIED 14 DIFF KINDS. NO DICE
I didn't even know there were 14 different kinds! Hmmmm....., must have missed the subtle differences!

Hahahaha

Are you relaxed, or uptight in se_x? WITH H, UPTIGHT. WITH OM, WAS MOSTLY (BUT NOT COMPLETELY) RELAXED
OK, so it's not that you are too uptight...

Do you have control alone? NO, NOTHING ALONE. I LOSE CONCENTRATION. I THINK, DEEP INSIDE, FEAR OF FAILURE. FEAR OF NOT MAKING IT HAPPEN.

Even when you are by yourself? There must be something (someone) you find se_xually arousing. So, daydream a bit. It's not against the law. Ever see a po_rn movie? Can you mind shift a little, and "be there". And, the only cost of failure, is you don't get off. It's not like you're being graded. So, relax, get the right tools, put yourself into the right state of mind, and hit the right spots!

My wife, btw, had your problem. She was married before, and never came. So, we had to use our imagination. And, now, she does. So, it can be done.....

Your husband, probably, is overwhelmed by you. I THINK HE ALWAYS HAS BEEN. HE LOVES WHAT I AM, BUT CAN'T DEAL WITH WHO I AM.
I'm not sure that the environment in your marriage will allow this to change, either...


BUT NOT HAPPY EITHER. MISERABLE.
I feel bad for you. Seems, there are bright spots in your life. Seems, the one hole in your life, is a good relationship. And, at least you are working on it.

Can you look, at someone else's marriage, with your husband. Have him look, at the role of the guy, in the other marriage. Maybe that could be a first step in getting him to expand himself....

Take Care,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MLM2:
<strong> [QUOTE]

So, then, you feel better, being the person in the relationship that gets things done, runs things, and such.
I'M ONE OF THOSE TYPE OF PEOPLE THAT JUST FIGURES IT'S EASIER TO DO IT MYSELF THAN NAG OR PUT OUT OTHERS. I NEVER WANTED TO BE CONSIDERED THE "NAGGY WIFE" THAT MY H COMPLAINED ABOUT TO HIS FRIENDS, SO I LET HIM DO PRETTY MUCH WHATEVER HE PLEASED. AND HE DID/DOES. BUT THEN I RESENTED HIM FOR TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME WITH IT. BUT NEVER SAID ANYTHING (OF COURSE, SO AS NOT TO NAG), JUST BURIED IT.

So, your match, probably will not be a highly successful person. They will let you down, and you will feel a need to be independant and in charge. I have this going on too. ALTHOUGH MY H IS HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL AT WORK, PLAY. DOES EVERYTHING WELL, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T INVOLVE PASSION OR FEELING.

Now, I don't know many, that have signed up for the workload you have.... IS IT REALLY ALL THAT UNUSUAL???

it seems to me that your affair wasn't about "betraying" per se. NO, OF COURSE IT WASN'T! IT WASN'T ABOUT REVENGE, OR MY H AT ALL.

your affair was part of a broader crisis. That you tried to address that crisis, first, through the marriage. He failed you there. Then, you looked elsewhere. And, still are..... WELL... NOT REALLY LOOKING ACTIVELY, READY TO BE ALONE FOR AWHILE AND MAKE THAT WORK FIRST

Did you ever show him this side of you, before?
EARLY ON IN OUR RELATIONSHIP, BUT THEN HE NEVER RESPONDED WITH ENCOURAGEMENT SO I STOPPED.

Maybe, he thought you were an A, but instead, now finds you to be a B. He now finds himself married to someone ELSE. Maybe, not what he bargained for. Do you think, your marriage, has been good, for him? WELL, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T THINK HE'S CHANGED ONE FREAKING IOTA IN IT SO IT DEPENDS ON WHO HE WANTS TO BE.

As for me, I would not have ever bothered getting married, if I didn't have kids. I think that the marriage structure is best for raising kids, so I got married. DITTO, I WAS CONTENT LIVING TOGETHER UNTIL KIDS BECAME AN ISSUE

And, I think natural parents ARE THE BEST SHOT a kid has (I'm not saying that Step-parents are NEVER better). I DO TOO, MY DILEMMA

But, how much do you resemble the person you were, when you got married? SAME GIRL, BUT NOT HIDING ANYMORE

Do you still have heart pangs for him? LOTS

It's WEIRD. It's physical intimacy. It's, for a woman such as yourself (I'm guessing), a big deal to give yourself to a man. EVERYTHING

Do you know of any other marriages, that you think are great? LOTS OF MY FRIENDS HAVE IT. I'M JEALOUS. I MARRIED THE WRONG GUY. I MARRIED A "NICE GUY", "EASY GOING", "FUN". BUT NOT LOVING, CARING, PASSIONATE, INTIMATE, EMPATHETIC.

with you. NO WAY. PEOPLE EVEN JOKE ABOUT THAT (AT WORK)
Do you like that this is the case? NO, IT HURTS

No orgasm? NO ORGASM
Ever? Never Ever? CLOSE, BUT NO CIGAR

Do you know where your G-Spot is? CAN'T GET THERE

If you've never had an orgasm, you need to make it a priority.... I'VE GIVEN UP TRYING.

Even when you are by yourself? There must be something (someone) you find se_xually arousing. So, daydream a bit. It's not against the law. Ever see a po_rn movie? Can you mind shift a little, and "be there". And, the only cost of failure, is you don't get off. It's not like you're being graded. So, relax, get the right tools, put yourself into the right state of mind, and hit the right spots! DONE ALL THIS

My wife, btw, had your problem. She was married before, and never came. So, we had to use our imagination. And, now, she does. So, it can be done..... LOTS OF WOMEN DO. IT'S A HURDLE I CAN'T GET OVER. CONGRATS TO YOUR WIFE!!!!!!!!!

Can you look, at someone else's marriage, with your husband. Have him look, at the role of the guy, in the other marriage. Maybe that could be a first step in getting him to expand himself....
OH, WHO KNOWS??? WE'VE BEEN TRYING THIS FOR 18 MONTHS NOW AND NO MOVEMENT. I'VE GIVEN UP. WE HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS WHO DO IT WELL, HE DOESN'T EVEN APPEAR TO THINK ABOUT IT. HE'S JUST BUSY PLAYING GOLF, CRACKING JOKES, READING MAGS. IT'S DISCOURAGING, FRUSTRATING. I THINK I'M AT THE POINT OF NO RETURN WITH HIM.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

I read an interesting article yesterday, about societal changes in Japan. Caused by a confluence of two factors.

First, was an economic factor. Like us, the Japanese have spurred spending via an appreciation in assets (houses). This is what we are doing too.

What happens, is income does not keep up with spending desires, so you lower interest rates. This causes the value of assets to rise.

People cash out (refi with a cash out), to extend their income.

Now, the problem with this, is an ever-gaping spread between income levels and asset prices.

So, young people are priced out of the housing market (that was your daily economics lesson- hahahah).

Now, add the second factor. A polarization of gender roles in Japan. Men, do not want to put up with female stuff, and vice versa. Men, just go to prostitutes. Women, well, there are vibrators and pretty boys I guess.

So, young people neither want to marry, nor can afford to make their own household (if they wanted to).

So, household formation is dangerously low.

See, this is interesting, cuz it refutes Darwinian laws, right? But, that has been the case for some time; people do not procreate like crazy anymore. Many able bodied people, choose not to, in direct conflict with Darwin.

So, while Darwin is a good place to start, for trying to understand behavior, can't just rest on it.

Anyway, why I brought this up, is because I think that that polarization is going on here, too.

That is why I think, increasingly, there is an older woman- younger guy thing going on...

Anyway, I have more to write you (bet you can't wait), but I am being called away....

Bye Bye

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Hi Flygirl,

And I was so sure it was Christopher that was going to get whacked! Oh well, guess that’s for next season.

So, anyway, where were we?

Ok, my last post. Which, actually, had some relevance. My point in it, was, that I think that “love” is more necessary in today’s society for a marriage to work, than in the past. Before, you could get pregnant, and then what? Now, abortion. So, se_x is easy. Women work now, and are not so dependant (thank goodness). Also, in the past, a woman had her pu_ssy to use to entice a man into a relationship. Now, pu_ssy is in no short supply……

A problem, as I see it, is that the se_x roles seem to be polarizing. In Japan, anyway. But here, too, I think. I think, that maybe they work best, with older-woman younger-guy.

Anyway, the older woman, has had time, to find herself. Address the basics in life, and now look for love. The younger guy, is not mind-numbed yet (give him a couple of years….. hahahaha).

In the past, the man as breadwinner, dependant wife, well, those se_x roles are becoming extinct. Men (like your husband and me, too) that were developed in that era, find a key part of their “package” as lacking value. A key problem, exacerbated by a societal perspective; cuz, once you have kids, you also have his money, no matter who you fu_ck….

One of the reasons, I asked you if you witnessed any relationships you thought were good, was to see if what you wanted was reasonably attainable. I’m sure, that the balance of pros/cons of your husband, WOULD be appealing to many women. Just not you. He has bad luck!

But, you said yes. So, what you want, is out there. I guess….

That’s good!

Yep….

But, then, there is the matter, of the nature of your love. This is psychobabble, but isn’t love psychobabble, in itself?

Well, there are many definitions of love. Most are flighty/idealistic. Some, are more basic/functional. I think we know what love is “supposed to be”. But then, have you ever looked at your role, in a “love-in” relationship? I think, it probably bears little resemblance, to your idea of love. Your love, versus what you think love is.

You said, you were attracted to dysfunctional men. Well, dontcha think that’s interesting? Now, btw, I am attracted to dysfunctional women. Sort of…. There is more to every picture…..

Think about this, Flygirl. By it’s very nature, if you are in a successful love relationship, it can’t last. Cuz, if you are successful in addressing the dysfunction, the feature that draws in you in will cease to exist. Right?

Now, last thought for now. I think, that people fall in love with people, who enable them to be the version of themselves they most like. We are always a version of ourselves. But the version that is brought out by various circumstances/people vary considerably, right? Certain situations/people bring out a you, that you like to be. Am I right about this? Your husband liked how he felt, when he was with the old you. That’s the you that he wants. You liked how you felt (coddled from your insecurities, by him) when you first married him.

Now, what is the you, that is brought out by a dysfunctional man?

<small>[ June 08, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: MLM2 ]</small>

Hello Fly --
Thought I would introduce myself -- since I think we are TWINS. How could we not have met before???

If/When you have the time, do a search on me. Read some of my old posts from 3 - 4 years ago.
SERIOUSLY! I have already lived your life, and had all the same feelings you've described, and got bashed worse than you for being an insensitive WS from you-know-where.

Life is FABULOUS now. We should talk.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lexxxy:
<strong> Hello Fly --
Thought I would introduce myself -- since I think we are TWINS. How could we not have met before???

If/When you have the time, do a search on me. Read some of my old posts from 3 - 4 years ago.
SERIOUSLY! I have already lived your life, and had all the same feelings you've described, and got bashed worse than you for being an insensitive WS from you-know-where.

Life is FABULOUS now. We should talk. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely! I want some help, and someone who has walked this road before would be great! How did you get there???

You can look up my history on the "recovery" board under either Aryn or Flygirl (Aryn was my un-fun posting handle) and read some, then let me know what you think. I look forward to hearing more from you about what you did to get out of this hole!!!!!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MLM2:
<strong> Hi Flygirl,

And I was so sure it was Christopher that was going to get whacked! Oh well, guess that’s for next season.

NO, BUT IT IS GETTING INTERESTING. I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT CARMELA TOOK TONY BACK. NOW THAT'S MARRIAGE BUILDING!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


One of the reasons, I asked you if you witnessed any relationships you thought were good, was to see if what you wanted was reasonably attainable. I’m sure, that the balance of pros/cons of your husband, WOULD be appealing to many women. Just not you. He has bad luck!

I AM SURE MANY WOMEN WOULD FIND MY H APPEALING TOO. THERE IS SOMEBODY OUT THERE FOR EVERYONE.

But, you said yes. So, what you want, is out there. I guess…. WHO KNOWS? I'M NOT REALLY LOOKING FOR HIM. THAT'S THE LAST THING I NEED RIGHT NOW.


Think about this, Flygirl. By it’s very nature, if you are in a successful love relationship, it can’t last. Cuz, if you are successful in addressing the dysfunction, the feature that draws in you in will cease to exist. Right?

NOT SURE ABOUT THAT. I THINK YOU CAN BOTH BE DYSFUNCTIONAL IN HARMONY AND MAKE IT WORK. I'M NOT SURE IT ENTIRELY GOES AWAY, JUST ITS IMPACT ON THE RELATIONSHIP IF YOU SUCCESSFULLY INCORPORATE IT IN.

Now, last thought for now. I think, that people fall in love with people, who enable them to be the version of themselves they most like. We are always a version of ourselves. But the version that is brought out by various circumstances/people vary considerably, right? Certain situations/people bring out a you, that you like to be. Am I right about this? Your husband liked how he felt, when he was with the old you. That’s the you that he wants. You liked how you felt (coddled from your insecurities, by him) when you first married him.

Now, what is the you, that is brought out by a dysfunctional man?
WELL, THE ME BROUGHT OUT BY A DYSFUNCTIONAL MAN IS THE HELPER ME. I WOULD BE PERFECTLY CONTENT IN A "HELPING" RELATIONSHIP SO LONG AS THE THINGS I NEED "HELP" WITH ARE BEING ADDRESSED (IE... PHYSICAL FUNCTIONING, INTIMACY, COMPANIONSHIP, EMPATHY). WHEN I FIRST MARRIED HIM, HE DIDN'T GIVE ME WHAT I NEEDED. HE DOESN'T NOW. HE NEVER HAS!! BUT SILLY ME THOUGHT OUR M WOULD GROW ENOUGH FOR HIM TO START PROVIDING. HE HASN'T. AND NOW I DON'T WANT IT ANYMORE B/C I AM EMPTY, LONELY AND OUT OF LOVE. SO, OUR RELATIONSHIP, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE HAS NEVER BEEN FULFILLING ON ANY LEVEL FOR ME EXCEPT TO HAVE A FRIEND AND A CO-PARENT (WHICH AT TIMES HAVEN'T BEEN SO FULFILLING). FOR HIM, I CAN'T REALLY SAY. HIS NEEDS ARE SIMPLE... SEX AND COMPANIONSHIP. THOSE TWO THINGS MAKE HIM FEEL LOVED AND NEEDED. HE DOESN'T REQUIRE MORE, THEREFORE HE DOESN'T GIVE MORE. HE ASSUMES EVERYONE ELSE'S NEEDS ARE JUST LIKE HIS OWN.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Let’s see….

EN’s being met by Tony and Carmela

Tony’s needs of Carmela
- Looks – pretty good
- Stability – Think so?
- Status/presentation – yep……
- Se_x. Not needed; he gets all he wants…..
- Emotional? Well, here, Tony HAS to keep a wall up, and Carmela doesn’t really want to know. Can you imagine, the kind of emotional support, Carmela would have to give, when Tony dings Adriana? Hahaha
- Companionship? Here, they seem to fit. Same kind of people, really.

Carmela’s needs, of Tony
- $$$
- $$$
- $$$

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, $$$$ (hahahaha)

Hey, wait a minute! Most of this stuff applies to my marriage too (hahaha – NO, NOT THE MOB STUFF!). OK, not the se_x whenever I want it, either (I know you’re feeling sorry for me, there….). Looks, stability, status, and how about, the all important, STATUS QUO!

Hahahaha

I’m wondering, if I am going to stay married, as well. Should I accept a B-? Wotcha think? I am grading generously, you know, cuz I am so NICE (read: doormat nice).

Still, I accept, that I am SOMEWHAT eccentric. I’m fine with that. Like yours, my marriage, has mostly become, what my spouse wanted of it. There has been little concern about me, along the way…..

But, in my wife’s case, there may be something physical involved, in how she is. This will sound funny, but it is true. There are issues of in-breeding (small island). Now, I know what you’re wondering? So, then, my MATCH, is an in-bred, overly high-strung selfish woman ?!?

Anyway, depression runs in her family. She, is always STRUNG out in extreme anxiety, and everything is all important, controversial, and the world just doesn’t run right AT ALL and She has to fix it. Fight fight fight.

I am tired of all this.

I have had to carry her, all this way. Kicking and screaming. Yuck!

Now, I HAVE had a close-emotional tie relationship that lasted for 3 years. So, I know it can be done.

But, she was not so usual, either. To be honest, I am not so placid myself. I like to keep the apple cart from rolling too easily and in a straight line. Don’t know why. Maybe, I am acting out. I am aware of some of my acting out whims, but I’m sure, not others…..

She could handle all my cr_ap. In fact, she LIKED it. She didn’t take me, and all my ridiculous non-sense seriously (ok, Flygirl, admit it, you’re thinking she just humored me to get se_x – hahaha).

Anyway, you mentioned, that you were not actively looking for another guy.

But, I think, tacit in all the thinking such as this, is an assessment. Is there REALLY, a better fit?

A MUCH better fit?

For me, this is not such an easy answer. My wife, DOES satisfy some of my EN’s. In return, I give her $$$ (hahahaha). So, it works on “a” level.

We are actually, quite good parents together. And, my youngest goes to college in 6 years. Staying together for the kids is not a life sentence for me. Just 6 more years (sh_it, is that really more than 2,000 days!!! – YUCK). But, time for me, to make the right decision. Because, we are good parents, when we parent TOGETHER. She would not be so great, by herself. For the reasons previously cited.

Anyway, I AM practical. And, my marriage gets a low passing grade. But, she is getting worse, not better. ALWAYS in an uproar. My role is to soothe her. ALL THE TIME.

Now, if it is physical, does that make a difference, on the degree of selflessness I should require of myself?

And, there are alternative relationship structures. Cuz, I am also in the fortunate position, of being able to retire early (I might as well wait till my youngest goes to college). When he goes, I could REALLY be free.

Now, she doesn’t like to travel or do things. I do. So, I COULD stay married, let her manage her ALL-important house, while I spend my time traveling. So, sort of separated. Kind of taking the chicken way out, but if it works, well….

Or, divorce. Or, looking for the silver lining…..

Anyway, then, about that match. I was wondering, how much of my tie, with that girl I talked about, was dysfunctional….

I think there was some of that, there….

On both parts…..

It worked, but was somewhat limited. And, yes, it showed NO signs of dying, on it’s own…..

So, I guess, if you can find your dysfunctional MATCH, go for it!

Hahahaha

I think, that unless the people have SERIOUS dysfunction, then, it can be dealt with, in a good relationship. Some dysfunction will interrupt the development of a relationship. But, if not, then, it can be dealt with. I agree with you.

Some, though, restrict the development of a relationship.

I think that when the roles are polarized, it is hard.

I think, while opposites attract makes sense in an evolutionary sense, because then the deficiencies of each individual are compensated for by the other, that, well, what you then have, is someone who you have nothing in common with (by definition).

Not, a recipe, for emotional closeness…

Anyway, hope you’re feeling better….

Hmmmmmm... in SOME ways your wife sounds a little like me (trying to fix things, strung out all the time b/c of neverending task lists, etc...) HOWEVER, most of this is driven by my life situations (mother of 4 under 9, CFO in my work world). I am type A personality, and very energetic, very organized to get things done but I also looooooooove to play and relax when I can do it without feeling guilty. If there is work to be done, forget it.

Dysfunction:

The OM
His is a VERY dysfunctional situation. Married over 20 years, two kids, nearly empty-nesters. He traveled in his job for 18 of the 20 years, so the M survived despite stark personality diffs and lack of common ground. She took over control of the house, raised the kids. Works, but makes nominal $$$ (not enough to have an apartment). He loses job, all of a sudden is home. She wears the pants, tells him what to do. She exercises control by manipulating the kids to her side and against him. He exacserbates it by playing "poor poor pitiful me" and not demanding that things change. She flips him off, he berates and criticizes her. They fight incessantly in front of the kids. The kids take Mom's side, totally reject Dad. He sulks. He talks about moving for a new job, she says he can go without them, or else work here at McDonalds - she doesn't care. He calls her a prude, she rushes thru sex, very lackluster and quiet. She perpetuates se_x life, b/c she knows she needs his income to keep her upper-class lifestyle. His son threatens to kill him if he abandons Mom, says he'll never find anything better b/c he is a loser. They have no social life b/c she and the kids are wallflowers (seen it) and he likes to work a room. She complains that he dominates a conversation. Friends are few, understandably so. This is mostly from his side of things, so could be tipped in his favor but you get the idea. He has no self-esteem, no self-confidence, no hope for improvement. Most passive man functionally I have ever met.

Nice, huh? Makes my situation look like Romeo and Juliet.

Thing is, he is dysfunctional, yes. He has been in over 20 years of a crappy, unloving marriage. However, he has never cheated on her before... this I KNOW pretty much for sure (don't ask how).

What in the world attracted me... a strong, independent, can-do, confident woman to HIM?!?

I'll tell you later, gotta go.

Hey Flygirl,

I KNEW about the 4 small kids. And what that entails (ok - not REALLY - only 2 here).

But, CFO too?

I work with "your types" all the time.

No small task there, either.....

Public or private company?

Oh, and btw, there is another difference, between you and my wife. She consternates and fusses constantly, about LITTLE stuff. Like you, I am highly successful. She does not work outside the home. She almost has nothing to do, but help the kids with their homework (I'm too whipped when I get home, to be of much help. It's 90% her, 10% me, there). She is in this uproar, of stuff I can hardly believe.

And, she FIXATES. If someone has done her or one of the kids a wrong, then, well, let's just say I'm glad I'm not "him". He has HE_LL to pay, OVER AND OVER.

So, the agititation, is made-up. The biggest problem, we faced, this entire Spring, was whether our son would make the hockey team he wanted (he did). Also, we hope for A- in honors math for our daughter (who usually gets a B+).

My work? I'm golden. I have a unusual track record at what I do, and have people wanting to hire me....

I've told her, that I think she is just physically unbalanced. That, she is just "naturally" anxious, THEN tries to figure out "why".

So, we had this long list (when we got married) about ALL THE BIG PROBLEMS.

I then started crossing things off the list (of course, she added more....).

Now, there is hardly anything left (but our relationship - no coincidence I'm here).

And, she is more anxious than ever. Sometimes, I can't keep a straight face over some of this stuff. But, she presses her point and doesn't mind screaming and yelling. Plus, I was raised (a whole different story) to be selfless, so I'm kinda geared into pleasing (one of our dysfunctional connections....).

I can also see, in some respects, the attraction you have for your OM (the positive elements). You seem lonely. Now, I know you have lots of interaction, but there are all kinds of flavors of that. I think, you are lonely, and wanted some real companionship. Ahd, he seems to have wanted that, too.

Anyway, I was wondering what the higher price of oil would do to your earnings this year? Are you hedged? At what price? Oh, yeah, and there are some signs of tightening in the labor market. Are you seeing any signs of inflation in compensation? You're major competitor just shifted manufacturing to China, wotcha going to do?

Oh, one more thing, about those reserves.....

hahahaha

Bye Bye

<small>[ June 09, 2004, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: MLM2 ]</small>

Nit-picky stuff is not my style. I can't sweat the small stuff when I always have bigger fish to fry. And I hate to yell (though I do a lot at my kids, I NEVER have done this w/ my H - probably needed to more).

OK, so...
What inspired me to take down my steel guard with this dysfunctional, f_cked up, depressed, pitiful man?

Well... before we were "involved"
He asked me how my day went. And listened to the answer.
He asked me how I was feeling. And listened to the answer.
He asked me if I ever noticed how much I was noticed when I walked into a room. He told me I carried myself with the most confidence of any woman he had ever met before.
He told me that I was a terrific mother, that it was obvious in my interaction with them and the way they interacted with me. And the way they behaved in public.
He told me that I was a beautiful person, inside and out.
He gave me a rose, the first red rose I had ever been given (he didn't go out and buy it, he picked it up off a table where someone had left it and had one of the kids in the room give it to me).
He encouraged me to strive for the best in life, said I deserved it. He encouraged me not to settle for less.
He said if all he ever did was to sit and talk to me that would be enough. I believed him, still do and he never gave me reason not to.
He confided in me, shared with me feelings and thoughts, emotions. He cried in front of me about his situation with his family. He cried in front of me about his situation with his parents.
He held me when I was down or upset. He spent countless hours supporting me and building me up when I needed it most.
He set me free, he never tried to control me.
He loved me for me, and he told me so. He never asked me to do anything for him, and whatever I did for him he was grateful.
Then, it became physical - and I'm the one who did it. He probably would not have, although it was what he desired as well. And the things he did for me physically... if there had been more opportunities, more peace of mind, more time... I believe the physical problems that exist within me would have been conquered too. But oh well.

He was a good man who didn't believe it of himself. He was a boy inside who was afraid to grow up and take control of his life. He swung directly from Mom to wife when he got married and has never experienced independence. Until me, he tried to honor a commitment but lacked the fortitude to demand better from it. He tried to get his wife to counseling, she just wanted things the way they "used to be in the beginning". He feared she only wanted him around for the lifestyle he could provide. He was a deeply religious man that was caught in conflict by his feelings for me. It made him depressed and extremely sad - the thought of forsaking his maker.
My guilt was tearing me apart too.
I suggested we part ways, go home and deal with our family situations.

Now, right or wrong, I have tasted all the things about what I want/need in life from a spouse. I told my H about my A. I have talked about those things that I need to get from a H. He understands them. He knows they are things he has never done before, with anyone. He promised to try and do them. He has not. He has done other things to try and satiate me. They are not what I want or need out of a relationship. That has created despair in me, loss of respect for him, and a desire to be out of this relationship... alone if I have to be.

Over our current M, I know my H has to hurt, though he refuses to show it. He doesn't believe he will ever find another like me. He believes family above all else... happiness, love, peace, companionship. He will stay in this situation forever if I let it happen. He operates in a mode of denial... blows kisses at me (since I no longer kiss him), smiles at me when I look at him, treats me kindly, talks kindly about me to the kids. BUT, the things on my list will never happen. NEVER. He wants things just the way they were and he could go on forever. For me, it's agony.

Hey Flygirl…


I can't sweat the small stuff when I always have bigger fish to fry.
Do you like to have your schedule be so full? Do you ever relax?

And I hate to yell (though I do a lot at my kids, I NEVER have done this w/ my H - probably needed to more).
My wife can give you lessons – but, you better be a good student (hahahaha) or, you’re in for it!

OK, so...
What inspired me to take down my steel guard with this dysfunctional, f_cked up, depressed, pitiful man?

You liked his ties?
Hahahaha

Ok. I just needed to lighten that up a bit. Wow, flygirl. You really think so little of him?

I guess, why, you’re not considering a life with him. OK.

Well... before we were "involved"
He asked me how my day went. And listened to the answer.
He asked me how I was feeling. And listened to the answer.
He asked me if I ever noticed how much I was noticed when I walked into a room. He told me I carried myself with the most confidence of any woman he had ever met before.
He told me that I was a terrific mother, that it was obvious in my interaction with them and the way they interacted with me. And the way they behaved in public.
He told me that I was a beautiful person, inside and out.
He gave me a rose, the first red rose I had ever been given (he didn't go out and buy it, he picked it up off a table where someone had left it and had one of the kids in the room give it to me).
He encouraged me to strive for the best in life, said I deserved it. He encouraged me not to settle for less.

Et al….
Seems, he opened his heart to you.

Truth is, he was courting you, Flygirl. He was happy, it seems, if this courtship simply resulted in close friends.

Now, I have “close” (no fu_cking) friends that are women, as well. Is it an EA? What does that mean, exactly? Where does close friend stop, and EA start? I don't know about any of this.

The problem, though, is in controlling a close-friendship. It is SO hard, to do that. They keep on creeping up, then, you realize, that your hearts’ are attached.

The problem with love, as I see it, is it "happens" to you when you are not really aware of it. You just realize, sometime, that you are in love. Then, what to do about it?

But, from the sound of this, you liked him for what he did for you. Not for what you did for him (your helper-side).

I think, you crave, being treated as a woman. You are treated as a caretaker at home (with responsibilities) and as someone in charge (with responsibilities) at work. On both counts, high energy roles.

When, was there really time, for the woman in you?

Seems, you just let that go for a long time.

He, seems, to have been able to get you to open up, there.

Now, one of the easiest ways to do that (not saying it was intentional) is to be a fu_ckup, cuz, then, you were put “in charge”, so, no big reason for your steel guard. So, maybe to get through your defenses, you need to feel in charge (and be with a dud - yuck).

Otherwise, I think that what you wanted was very normal.


He was a good man who didn't believe it of himself. He was a boy inside who was afraid to grow up and take control of his life. He swung directly from Mom to wife when he got married and has never experienced independence. Until me, he tried to honor a commitment but lacked the fortitude to demand better from it.
You are such a smarty…. I like how you wrote this. Did you help him, in actuality?

I suggested we part ways, go home and deal with our family situations.
Are you happy you did? Some people, carry on affairs, indefinitely, you know…

Now, right or wrong, I have tasted all the things about what I want/need in life from a spouse. I told my H about my A. I have talked about those things that I need to get from a H. He understands them. He knows they are things he has never done before, with anyone. He promised to try and do them. He has not. He has done other things to try and satiate me. They are not what I want or need out of a relationship. That has created despair in me, loss of respect for him, and a desire to be out of this relationship... alone if I have to be.

Well, if you have not mis-represented yourself, you do not have to be alone. Asking someone to sign up for 4 kids is a lot (you’ll need lots of neat bedroom tricks to get that done – hahaha).

But, you’ll get lots of attention. I, for one, do not NEED to me married. If I were to divorce, I would get lots of attention too. Not cuz I’m so great, but, I make the $$$. The price I pay, is that I pay a price (hahaha).

The deal is, is if you divorced (might be the pitiful thing to do for your husband), do you think he would stick around and be a decent dad? If so, then, you could at least date, have fun, maybe catch a guy, and your kids would not suffer that much. If he would instead move away, a bigger dilemma.


Over our current M, I know my H has to hurt, though he refuses to show it.
He hasn’t been laid in 18 months……

He doesn't believe he will ever find another like me. He believes family above all else... happiness, love, peace, companionship.

These are some good traits, flygirl.

Look, if you could come with him, would you be happy? If he got you off, would you put up with the rest?

BUT, the things on my list will never happen. NEVER.
Hmmmmm, your list….

I was going to have fun with this, but I spared you (you can’t say I’m misbehaving). So, what’s on your list? Be specific.

Just, someone to talk to, intimately? Do you want him to become more se_xually adventuress? Seems, you could outsource some of the household work stuff. I surprised you haven’t done this already.

But, do you NEED your husband to be pathetic? So that you can lower YOUR guard, to get closer?

So, if "this" were a conversation, spoken, that we are having, is this a level of emotional exposure that you would be uncomfortable having with your husband (my wife, cannot communicate on THIS level)?

I also think, that in marriages, there are OTHER agendas. With OM, your ONLY agenda, really, was romantic. Right? With your husband, well, you are in competition for some things (at least play time, as far as I know). With OM, there were no kid things, no financial things, nothing hard, but you and him. Think about that.

In ANY marriage, with many kids, and two jobs, a lot of things get left on the wayside….

Lastly. To get him to do what you want, what things have YOU risked so far?

About se_x, can you be wild? Why don’t you get what you want from him? Look, I have been with women who left NOTHING to chance (hahaha – and it was fun for me, too). You are not the first woman I’ve known, who is very aggressive in all manners except her role in her romantic relationship. Can you tell him what you want him to do? Are you timid, about getting “how to” stuff?

I’m going to tell you this again. You are in your late 30’s. And have never had an orgasm? You need to address that. As a priority. I’m not joking. Does your husband know this? Have you discussed this in therapy? Do you really plan on living your life without ever having one?

There are also web-sites, where you can discuss this with other women. For my wife, we tried this and that, and when we tried a certain thing, voila! Once we did the “right” thing, it was not hard. But, that thing, took some effort to find. Certainly, there is psycho-se_xual stuff going on with her. You too, I’m guessing.

For you to know, I would not expect ANY woman to be happy in a relationship where she didn’t have orgasms. Sorry, but I guess I have se_x on the brain. It is the master re-set button (hahahaha).

Take Care, and I hope you re-financed while you had the chance!

<small>[ June 09, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: MLM2 ]</small>

Flygirl,
Have you ever read the "Walk-away wife" by Michele Werner-Davis?

It sounds like you fit that profile to a "T."
Check out her divorce busting website, for that article.

By the time I started my affair, there was literally NOTHING my husband could have done to recover our relationship. Yet I lingered in the marriage for a long time coming to terms with ending it. Once I actually left -- I became a much happier person!

Living in limbo was agony. And it was a waste of time. Our marriage was not going to recover -- I hated every minute of my ex's efforts to fix things. I cringed if he touched me, just like your first post was talking about. And I got all kinds of nasty posts in reply about how awful I was.

I finally moved out a few years ago, after dealing with limbo for 3 years...and I am happier than I have been in 20 years.

My leaving had nothing to do with OM. I'm not with him -- and I regret the relationship with him totally.

I guess it was an exit strategy in a way. A really bad one...but it got me to where I am today. And I'm happy to be me, happy with my life, and feel like I regained the person I was destined to be (prior to marriage).

Luck to you!

Do you like to have your schedule be so full? Do you ever relax?
WELL, BEING TYPE A I LIKE TO BE BUSY, BUT I ALSO LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE TO RELAX. I DON'T GET MANY CHANCES, AND IT'S HARD FOR ME TO DO IT WHEN THERE'S STUFF I HAVE TO DO. MY JOB IS NEVERENDING BUSYWORK.

You liked his ties?
ACTUALLY, I WANTED TO "DRESS HIM UP". HE ALWAYS TOOK VERY GOOD CARE OF HIMSELF (UNLIKE MY H) AND DRESSED NICELY, BUT HIS CHOICE OF CLOTHING (PROBABLY HIS WIFE'S CHOICE) LEFT A LOT TO BE DESIRED. MY H IS COLORBLIND, SO I (USED TO) DRESS HIM UP, BUY HIS CLOTHES, ETC... AND WHEN HE DID CLEAN UP, HE LOOKED GOOOOOOOOOD

Wow, flygirl. You really think so little of him? I guess, why, you’re not considering a life with him.
NO, I THOUGHT A LOT OF HIM. BUT HIS WAY OF DEALING WITH THINGS WAS CHILDISH AND PASSIVE. INSIDE, HIS HEART, HE WAS A VERY SWEET, CARING, LOVING, COMPASSIONATE, EMPATHETIC, FUNNY PERSON. I COULDN'T HAVE POSSIBLY FALLEN FOR ANYTHING SUB-PAR.


Seems, he opened his heart to you. Truth is, he was courting you, Flygirl. He was happy, it seems, if this courtship simply resulted in close friends. YES, HE SAID SO MANY TIMES, NEVER PUSHED THE PHYSICAL PART... WAS FRIGHTENED OF THE PHYSICAL PART. IT WAS ME WHO COULDN'T HOLD OFF ANY LONGER.

Now, I have “close” (no fu_cking) friends that are women, as well. Is it an EA? What does that mean, exactly? Where does close friend stop, and EA start? I don't know about any of this.
ON THIS SITE, ABSOLUTELY SO!!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "CLOSE" RELATIONSHIP WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX THAT IS APPROPRIATE OR SAFE FOR MARRIAGE. YOU NEED TO FORSAKE THEM B/C THEY MIGHT NOT BE A'S, BUT ARE "POTENTIAL" A'S -- TEMPTATION. THIS IS THE PART OF THE MB PHILOSOPHY THAT I DON'T AGREE WITH. I THINK IT'S RIGHT-WING CHRISTIANITY.

The problem, though, is in controlling a close-friendship. It is SO hard, to do that. They keep on creeping up, then, you realize, that your hearts’ are attached.
THAT'S WHY THEY SAY DON'T DO IT. BUT I HAVE DONE IT ALL MY ADULT LIFE... HAD VERY VERY CLOSE MALE FRIENDS THAT I HAD ZERO DESIRE FOR.

But, from the sound of this, you liked him for what he did for you. Not for what you did for him (your helper-side).
NO, IT WAS BOTH FOR SURE.

I think, you crave, being treated as a woman.
BINGO

You are treated as a caretaker at home (with responsibilities) and as someone in charge (with responsibilities) at work.
BINGO

When, was there really time, for the woman in you?
PLENTY OF TIME, NEVER THE EFFORT. OUR MC TELLS MY H HE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO LOVE A WOMAN. AND HE ISN'T REALLY DOING ANYTHING TO FIND OUT HOW.

He was a good man who didn't believe it of himself. He was a boy inside who was afraid to grow up and take control of his life. He swung directly from Mom to wife when he got married and has never experienced independence. Until me, he tried to honor a commitment but lacked the fortitude to demand better from it.
You are such a smarty…. I like how you wrote this. Did you help him, in actuality?
NO, ONLY HE CAN HELP HIMSELF. I TRIED NOT TO GIVE HIM ADVICE. BEING WITH HIM WAS WRONG ENOUGH, I DIDN'T WANT TO SWAY HIM INTO ONE THING OR ANOTHER. REALLY NOT MY BUSINESS. THEN PART OF HIS PROBLEMS BECAME OUR A AND FALLING IN LOVE WITH ME.

I suggested we part ways, go home and deal with our family situations.
Are you happy you did? Some people, carry on affairs, indefinitely, you know…
IN SOME WAYS YES, IN SOME WAYS NO. NOT LOOKING OVER MY SHOULDER ANYMORE, GUILT IS SUBSIDING, OBEYING THE "RULES" BUT GOD I MISS OUR CONVERSATIONS.

Well, if you have not mis-represented yourself, you do not have to be alone. Asking someone to sign up for 4 kids is a lot (you’ll need lots of neat bedroom tricks to get that done – hahaha).
GOT THEM. COUCH TRICKS TOO! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The deal is, is if you divorced (might be the pitiful thing to do for your husband), do you think he would stick around and be a decent dad?
NO WORRIES THERE... ABSOLUTELY HE WOULD. AND I WOULD WANT TO CONTINUE AN AMICABLE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.

Over our current M, I know my H has to hurt, though he refuses to show it.
He hasn’t been laid in 18 months…… HE DOESN'T ACT LIKE IT'S A PROBLEM. HIS FAMILY OF ORIGIN... HIS MOTHER (FATHER DIED 39 YEARS AGO) HASN'T DATED SINCE, HASN'T HAD SEX SINCE, I BELIEVE MY H HAS LEARNED THAT FROM HER HE CAN ABSTAIN.

Look, if you could come with him, would you be happy? If he got you off, would you put up with the rest? I WOULD LOVE TO MAKE IT WORK, FOR OUR KIDS, FOR ME, FOR OUR FAMILY. BUT IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, BELIEVE ME!

But, do you NEED your husband to be pathetic?
NO, I HATE PATHETIC BEHAVIOR

So that you can lower YOUR guard, to get closer? I HAVE LOWERED MY GUARD AT TIMES, HE DOESN'T RESPOND - AT ALL.

I also think, that in marriages, there are OTHER agendas. With OM, your ONLY agenda, really, was romantic. Right? With your husband, well, you are in competition for some things (at least play time, as far as I know). With OM, there were no kid things, no financial things, nothing hard, but you and him. Think about that.
THIS IS A REALLY GOOD POINT THAT YOU MAKE. I REALIZE THIS, I AM FULLY AWARE OF IT. MY H AND I MANAGE ALL THE "HARD" THINGS WELL. MONEY, KIDS, FAMILY STRIFE, ETC... PART OF IT IS B/C HE DOESN'T EVER GET EMOTIONAL... ABOUT ANYTHING. SO WE DON'T ARGUE. HE WON'T ARGUE. HE ACQUIESCES EVERYTIME. IT'S NOT MUTUAL REALLY.

Lastly. To get him to do what you want, what things have YOU risked so far? I HAVE DONE SOME RISKING. I'M NOT DOING IT ANYMORE. I HAVE GIVEN UP. I HAVE CHECKED OUT. DAY LATE, DOLLAR SHORT. I HAVE TONS OF RESENTMENT, ANGER, HURT. HE HASN'T SHOWN ME HARDLY ANY SIGNS OF MOVING OUT OF HIS COMFORT ZONE. SO NOW WE'RE AT A MEXICAN STANDOFF.

About se_x, can you be wild? Why don’t you get what you want from him? Look, I have been with women who left NOTHING to chance (hahaha – and it was fun for me, too). You are not the first woman I’ve known, who is very aggressive in all manners except her role in her romantic relationship. Can you tell him what you want him to do? Are you timid, about getting “how to” stuff?
I WAS FAIRLY AGGRESSIVE AT FIRST. HE NEVER RESPONDED TO IT. JUST MISSIONARY... HE'S FINISHED SO ARE WE. IT'S WHY EVENTUALLY I STOPPED GIVING IT TO HIM. HE EVEN THREW AWAY ALL THE X MOVIES IN OUR HOUSE!!!! THREW THEM AWAY!!!! IT'S NOT B/C HE'S A PRUDE, JUST DIDN'T SEE ANY USE FOR THEM. BUT IT WAS ALL I HAD TO BE WILD WITH!!!!!!!!! DAM HIM!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


I’m going to tell you this again. You are in your late 30’s. And have never had an orgasm? You need to address that. As a priority. I’m not joking. Does your husband know this? Have you discussed this in therapy? Do you really plan on living your life without ever having one?
OF COURSE I DON'T "PLAN" ON THIS!!!! I WANT TO CHANGE IT, I'M TRYING TO CHANGE IT, I'M DESPERATE TO CHANGE IT, I'D PAY ANY KIND OF MONEY TO CHANGE IT (AND COMING FROM A CPA, THAT'S BIG) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I CAN'T CHANGE IT. NOT MYSELF, NOT WITH OM, NOT WITH H NOW, IT'S MY FATE. I'VE ACCEPTED THAT.


LEXXXXXXXXXXY:
THANKS FOR THE POST. YOUR SITUATION DOES SOUND SCARY-SIMILAR TO MINE! I'M GLAD YOU ARE HAPPY NOW, REALLY GLAD! I'D LIKE TO THINK WE CAN ALL MAKE OUR CHOICES AND IF WE ARE CAREFUL ABOUT IT, MAKE THEM FOR THE BETTER.

I HOPE TO DO SO TOO. IT'S JUST SO HARD FOR ME TO LEAVE, WHEN THE LEAVING OF MY PARENTS RUINED MY CHILDHOOD, RUINED MY LIFE. GRANTED, I DON'T HAVE TO DO IT THE SAME WAY, BUT I CAN'T SEPARATE THE TWO. DV IS DV, NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT. AND IF THERE ARE KIDS INVOLVED, IT'S TRAGIC.

HOPEFULLY, YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE PHYSICAL PROBLEMS I AM WRESTLING WITH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />