I don't know how to make peace with Empty.
I don't know where to start.
Will we hate eachother like this.
I want to throw up the white flag and discuss things without feeling constantly controlled.
Is this possable

Lucidity,
Everything is possible. For me it's a matter of desire and need. We have it with in us to change our hearts and minds to be open to accept thoughts, opinions and emotions. I'm not saying you have to agree with what you hear but at least allow youself to hear it and understand it before shutting it out. The emptieness is from closing yourself off from all this.

Controlling is a 50 - 50 proposition. The person trying to do the controling and the person either allowing or not allowing themselves to be controled.

It will not always be like this unless you want it to be. It's very hard to hate someone who is showing love and compassion towards a fellow human being. Remember it ALWAYS takes 2 to have a fight. If one won't fight what do you have ?

My stbxw is so full of guilt she can't have a rational conversation with me anymore. She perceives me as the source of all her problems past and present and chooses to shut me out. She won't open her heart and mind to see and accept the changes in me. She won't allow me to begin anew and accept the love I have for her. This is her choice as well as your spouses choice. We can't change their minds or make them see anything. We learn about the behaviors that brought about our situations and try to change them for OUR own good. They can see it and accept it or not. These concepts sound simple in writing but are very difficult to live. You must truely believe them, embrace them, and live them in order for them to have any affect on you or your spouse. We are all here to support each other and you will receive much good advice and support from most of the people on this forum.

Peace, Love and Hope to you,

David A

David A, if only one person is fighting you have a winner and a loser. Taken to the extreme you have an abuser and a victim. And I only wish the controlling thing was so easy. Some people are incredibly skilled at controlling others. They use emotional blackmail, real blackmail, threats of physical harm, and pyschological games. Their big weapon is FEAR.

Often with these skilled controllers, their targets are wise to be afraid.

And okay, before anyone thinks I've done a switcheroo, let me add this qualifier. I believe these kinds of people make up a very small percentage of the populace in general, and a slightly larger section of the MBers' spouses.

Given Lucidity's story, I think these dynamics were in place in her FOO, and some of them spilled over into her marriage, whether or not Empty is at the far end of the controlling spectrum.

I didn't see this thread until today, so I apologize for not responding sooner. (thanks greengables for bumping it up).

I haven't chatted with Empty in a LONG time. Our last really good chat was about a year ago, as we seem to keep on missing each other online. So I really don't know what he wants from you to repair the M at this point.

The only thing I am absolutely CERTAIN about, is that he does not want to have anything to do with you if the OM is still in the picture, because he is worried about the safety of ALL involved.

Did Empty ever give you a plan B letter? There is one he did up on GQII somewhere last year, or the year before. That would be a good place to start to have any idea what you need to do.

Lucidity, you still need to do some major work on YOU. Your self esteem is still extremely low, after all of the chaos that has gone on in your life in recent years. You cannot give to your M until you have it in you to give.

You need to work on YOU, and put you first again. Little things at first... but things that make you happy. For me, last summer it was buying sandals. LOL. Oh! And toe rings and nailpolish. That was fun. I joined a bookclub (through Oprah.com), and in September, I joined my older son's "Home and School Association" and later on, the school council. It's been really fun keeping busy, making new friends (mostly women), and regaining confidence that was lost long ago. I'm still working on getting to church more often, but that's another story. At least I made a point of finding one to go to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What are the little things like that you have done lately? What are some things you want to do? Art classes? College? Guitar lessons? A new hair cut or colour?

Karen