<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Thanks for the rationale, apologies not necessary though. Everyone here has their own agenda, their own reason for being here. This is a free board, for everyone to express their opinions. Opinions aren't right or wrong because they aren't
based in fact. Just b/c Nellie or anyone else says "this is the worst thing in the world to do, it's "akin to murder" doesn't make it so. But certainly, to that person, it is, and that's fine FOR THEM.

Where people go wrong, is as you said, inflicting their personal anger, resentment on others. I have worked very hard at not doing this here, or on the recovery board. I have had a lot of very personal angry posts, but never putdowns directed at anyone or judgements.

It doesn't help ANYONE to recover or find their way to be anything but supportive. Whether you believe someone is right or wrong, I don't think anyone here is intentionally malicious to their spouse. Problem is, when people are in the midst of turmoil, as I am, they frequently CANNOT SEE where they are making mistakes, hurting. I never ever ever EVER intentionally hurt anyone else. I am one of the kindest people I know (all of my anger gets turned inward - depression). Yet people accuse me of being heartless, spineless, selfish, mean, ruthless, evil. I had an A, yes. But it had NOTHING to do with wanting to hurt my H. It had a lot to do with wanting panacea for my pain, loneliness, depression, despair. I am not oblivious to the fact that on down the line he would be hurt, but it was not about him. I think BS's just find it difficult to understand that. They think they are incapable of such sin and so they don't understand how anyone could do it. Funny thing - up until last Spring, SO DID I. THAT'S when the crack in my foundation split.

I am here for help. I would suggest to anyone who is just here to hurt anyone here looking for help... reconsider. It doesn't accomplish anything and could hurt enough to chase people away who have come here desperate for solutions. Now THAT would be a crime (IMO, of course!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Laura_lee,

So it's ok to say, "Affairs are wrong," but not ok to say, "You were wrong to have an affair?" It is not ok to point out that Flygirl, based on her statements, is not being sensitive to her husband's feelings? I disagree.

Calling someone a stupid idiot would be a inappropriate insult. Letting them know that I think what they are doing/saying is wrong is not. They don't have to heed what I say, obviously, but there is nothing inappropriate about my saying it.

"You can not equate the betrayal of infidelity with ANYTHING else, much less such nebulous actions as "withholding of praise." Short of attempted murder, there is nothing a spouse can do that is worse than infidelity, and saying otherwise makes it obvious that you have NO CLUE of the pain you have caused. "

You obviously do not believe that marriage is permanent...
Most of us whose spouses have abandoned the family have experienced the emotional withdrawal, etc., that you mentioned as well - and to state that the pain as a result of those issues even comes close to the pain of betrayal reflects an almost unimaginable degree of insensitivity.


I believe this might be (part of) what Laura was referring to. I completely agree with her, and appreciate and applaud her unbiased approach. Again, you have a right to your opinion and you might condemn me for who you THINK I am. But, since you really don't even begin to know, think about how this could even possibly help me think more clearly, see things differently, soften my heart or empathize with my H. Maybe we can say things in a more positive, supportive light to each other instead of "you are unimaginably insensitive", you don't believe this, you don't believe that...
That may not be your purpose in being here, you may be in this forum to take out all your anger and frustration from your personal life on other <low-life cheaters who deserve it>. Be careful before you do, lest you do some victimizing yourself.

I've said my peace, now... back to recovery.

<small>[ May 23, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Flygirl 13 ]</small>

Laura, on a previous thread you quoted Matthew 7:1, If you read on, the full text of the chapter. Christ states that you are a hypocrite if you have the beam in your eye, but point out the splinter in your neighbors eye. If one is right with God, and has removed the splinter from his own eye, then you are free to aid in removing the splinter out of your neighbors eye.

We as Christians are to uphold our brethern in Christ, to support them in their weaknesses; to hold them accountable, not judge. You have stated on many posts your Christian beliefs. You are accountable to a higher standard, as well as to your brothers and sisters in Christ.

It appears that you are just as guilty, telling Nellie that you think she should "apologize..that it would be the right thing to do" sounds an awful lot like what you have accused Nellie of.

Fly Girl, however you have not made the same professions. If you are holding on to your marriage only for the sake of your children, think about how your anger, and yes even your judgements of your husbands personal hygeine are affecting, and will in the future affect the dynamics of their life, even into your children's future marriages

<small>[ May 23, 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: sunrise1 ]</small>

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Sunrise,

Believe me, I think about it every day. My kids are paramount and while I know DV can be very traumatic, staying with someone in an unhealthy relationship can be equally, of not more, damaging. I have seen it in action.

I never ever say anything to my H criticizing his hygeine. Yes, it is awful (IMO!). I did tell him there were things he could do to improve our SF issue, and listed them to him, in as respectful a way as you can discuss those things. I have wtihheld my feelings for YEARS about that b/c I didn't feel it was a "allowable" EN - that I should accept him for who he is unconditionally and put that EN of mine out as unacceptable. In addition, I would or will never say anything to my kids about it. I believe in letting them formulate their own opinions/thoughts/feelings about things on their own.
As you might imagine, I have a mother-in-law who treats people like dirt. She has berated any woman who has ever even looked at her boys. She says awful things about me and others in front of the kids (ie... you are a horrible mother b/c you work - ignoring your kids, you are causing the kids brain damage by forcing them to use cups and forks too young... ridiculous stuff). However, despite her forked tongue, I have never ever said one single negative thing about her in front of the kids. It is not my place to skew their impression of her, they will decide on their own one day if she is someone they want to be around or not. Same thing goes for anyone in our family. I would never undermine my H's relationship with our kids nor him me, it is one of the things we do very successfully together.

Laura_Lee,

I would like to point out that my children ARE my equals.

If you will go back and read Flygirl's thread carefully, you will note that I have not responded to her posts since she asked me to "back off," except to point out that I had not made a statement which she had attributed to me.

Her relationship to her husband may be her business, but once she posted about it, she was inviting comment. People don't often post here with the intention of having their posts ignored.

You are the one that prompted the continuation of this discussion by creating this thread - not me, and not Flygirl.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Referring to Flygirl as, in effect, "clueless"... was quite a slam. Not positive. Biting, cruel, vindictive... mean.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you well know, I did not refer to Flygirl as "clueless" in the general sense. I said she had no clue as to the pain she had caused - a very different and more specific statement. Having no clue about the results of a particular action is not the same thing as being clueless in general, which is similar to stupidity. If you are going to judge my statements as mean and vindictive, I would appreciate it if you would be more accurate in your paraphrasing.

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Laura Lee
quote:
"I like to foster the sense of community, equality, liberty, diversity... mutual love, care, consideration, and respect"


Im sorry I dont see any of this in your posts. I have never responded negatively to anyone before, but I just have to now.

Over and over again you have engaged Nellie into responding to your posts and then you totally blast her, and then tell her that she is not permitted a response. Where is equality in that?

Liberty...to have one's own opinion

Diversity..thats what make the world go round, and Nellie was right when she stated that people come here to post and receive feedback, invite comment. If you dont like the feedback, dont post. Variety of responses allow us to sit back and view things from an angle we might not have considered before.

Mutual love?????? I dont even need to comment on the tone of your recent posts. Cyber space or not, your feelings have come across loud and clear to me, and I am not even the target of your barbs..certainly not mutual love, and certainly not consideration or respect

I think Nellie and Fly girl could have had a civil discussion even with different points of view. Your inflamatory responses did nothing for this forum.

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: sunrise1 ]</small>

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Apologizing to Flygirl, even if you think you are "right"... to me, would be the right thing to do... without even trying to "prove your point".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To her or to you? Or there is no difference, you are both WS, correct?
(Not that I (personally) mind; it's your choice and as far as you have proper consequences to deal with, I'm (personally) fine...)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So never mind who is "right". Let's just do our best not to trample over one another's personal space.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really?
Then there is no need for this thread at all!
And personal space we can only have in our home, having 'door' closed... once we share it, especially in a public place, the door is open... asking for different approaches to the same issues... and that helps, if we open our eyes and listen to things sometimes we don't want to hear, but they are truth!

And only truth about ourselves can save us... otherwise our lies would have made us happy already...


PPS: Yes, I was BS, but even if WS, I would speak the same!

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Hi Laura;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I would put up my hand and say, "Stop." if I felt I was witnessing abuse.

From my point of view, what I saw was abusive. I really don't want to get into that loop. I just wanted to say, "Stop."

---

For example, I believe that Nellie, or anyone, has the right to speak for themselves.

The line is crossed when instead of speaking for ourselves, we speak for someone else, not permitting them the respect to correct us... and speak for themselves.

For example, to Nellie....... That's how she feels as an individual.....

---

What happens when an immovable object meets an unstoppable force?

Well, ongoing clash.

Flygirl feels how she feels.

Nellie feels how she feels.

I don't think they need to compare and compete with whose feelings are more valid.

Both of their feelings are valid... for themselves.

But if either one of them tries to "convince" the other that how they feel is "the way" to feel... that's not going to happen. An immovable object is going to meet an unstoppable force.

Cause Nellie is Nellie. And Flygirl is Flygirl.

---

Am I a WS? What does that have to do with saying, "Stop." as I witness this kind of dynamic?

I'm the bride of the Lord. And sometimes I sin. Not very smart of me... but sometimes I'm a WS. I think we all are.

Laura</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nicely said...
And if you replace "Nellie" by "Laura" or ANY OF US here... I won't see any difference...!
Nellie said from HER point of view as you did too, and both of you are right - from your points of view!!...
(you and Nellie and Sunrise and me and anyone else say STOP to what WE consider abuse/murder/whatever...)
('If you don't respect differences, don't expect yours would be respected either...')


And, don't worry... BS or Ws, we are all sinners... otherwise we wouldn't be here (but in paradise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

Laura_lee,

As you know, I told Flygirl that there is nothing a spouse can do, short of attempted murder, that is worse than infidelity - I did not say that infidelity was worse than murder. I assume you are aware that the phrase "short of" means "except for." I said that it was insensitive to her husband's pain to equate the items on her list, such as "witholding of praise," to infidelity. I stand by these statements.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe you "hear" what I say.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I "hear" what you say just fine - though I doubt the reverse is true - I just disagree with you.

LL:

YOu are absolutely correct that Flygirl is entitled to her own feelings. She is entitled to an opinion. Her feelings are valid...to her.

INMO she is in severe withdrawl from her marriage and her husband. Her feelings are valid.

And please, do not confuse feelings with constructive criticism. Or logic.

In the long run, if Flygirl has a plan, and I am not sure she does...YET...she will try to execute that plan.

My feeling is that she is dealing with a host of emotions..pain..guilt...and feeling like she is between a rock and a hard place.

You do not have to agree with what is said. But others are just as entitled to their opinions too.