My WW continues her A, her mind still controlled by aliens. I give up. Bring on the DV and lets get it over with. I don't believe in friendly DV or feel like I can be friendly afterward. Does it matter anymore if I LB???

It only matters so much as the children go. You don’t want to disrespect their mother, especially since they’re boys. They’ll be tempted to charge to her rescue.

Did you try Plan B? You may be a huge satisfaction out of calling her a ‘ho, but it would be detrimental to your end goals.

You say you want a divorce, but underneath it sounds like you really want a war. War will not help you get a good visitation deal. War will not help you get a speedy divorce. War will not help you keep your attorney’s fees under control.

Now, let’s look back. Has committing LB’s every really helped you? Probably not. And taking the long view, definitely not.

On the other hand, you do NOT have to follow the policy of joint agreement. You do NOT have to spend 15 hours a week with her. You do NOT have to roll over and give her her own way if it doesn’t work for you.

All I have to ask you, is this;
Is it worth it? Are the good times in your marriage worth throwing the whole thing away? And, how much are the bad things worth?

There was a point at which I wanted my wife to suffer for what she did. I wanted to have our daughter taken away from her, and I wanted to hit her with child support, and every other financial drain the Nevada courts were capable of. I wanted to tell an entire courthouse, from my own mouth, what she had done to deserve the divorce... and, I wanted to see the look of embarassment, and shock in her eyes when I spoke it, loud and clear into the microphone, for all present to hear.
Thank the gods I didn't follow through. I later found out that she always knew how badly she was hurting me, and she felt miserable and worthless for it the whole time. How could I hate someone who thought only of me, and how sorry she was for hurting me... even when she was with the other man (er.... 'other 30-year-old child', rather).
It's kind of satisfying, in a strange way, to know that pillow talk between them most likely consisted of her talking about me.
Also... words are meaningless... it's the undeniable evidence that supports them. She says nobody has ever pleased her as much as I do... and, trust me... she's telling the truth.
All in all... we're better off than ever, now. I mean, in every way. The more we leave this ugly, horrible monster behind, the closer, and more in love we become.

Think about all that.
Not trying to change your mind... just giving you some perspective.

peace, love, and tight corners...
-Jarod Wynde

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Jarod_Wynde ]</small>

The way I see it is if you have been following MB concepts then you have been learning how to meet EN's and not LB

I don't know your story but I guess you have been in plan A to try to save your M.

If you start LB'ing now, it will show her that you were just trying to get your way and didn't realy mean what you were doing to save you M.

However I do believe that there are things that are seen as LB's that can't be avoided in order to move foward in life

Again, I don't know your story and I may be off base but I think LB's should be avoided in any relationship. Is it realy right to hurt another?

WIWH

Hey there DJ, sounds like you had a frustrating weekend with the ole’ WW too…??? I can honestly say… I feel your pain. But look, I think you and I both know that a divorce is not what you really want. Right? You want your W to get her head out of her @ss and come home to help you fix this….right? Yeah, me too. But look, this won’t happen overnight… it’s gonna take some time. A lot of time. You need to let her hit rock bottom… And you can’t make her hit bottom; it is something she needs to do all on her own.

I think Green Gabbles is right, you need to try a plan B…. which I might add is one hell of a lot harder to do than you think. I’ve done 2 of them… the first was a complete failure, hence the second… which was only marginally effective. You see, the WS needs conflict with you in order to reassure themselves that they are justified in doing what they are doing. Trust me; this is all going to be your fault. When you stop taking her calls, stop communicating with her, get on with your life, and so on… it will drive her crazy. I mean crazy in a bad sort of way… she will be stomping her feet and carrying on like you have never seen. She will tell you all sorts of crap like she WAS thinking of coming home, but now she is sure she made the right decision by leaving… look at what kind of @sshole you turned into!!! She will say stuff like: “How can you treat me like this, you are such a child, grow up.” Stuff that will drive you nuts!!! You will want to respond and give her the war she is egging on… DON’T DO IT. That is what she wants, it will pacify her guilt and make you the bad guy in her eyes… it will alleviate her pain. And trust me, she is in pain. The more successful your plan B is, the more painful it will be for her…and that was always the hardest part for me, watching her in pain. Because you love her, you want to help her… but you can’t. The best thing you can do for her is to stick to that plan b, think of it as tough love. The sooner she hits bottom, the sooner you can help her back up. But she has to hit bottom first. Look, this is just a little of my plan B experience in a nutshell… there is more, but I think we need to get you on board before I go boring the hell out of you!!!

Let me repeat myself for a second here… I really, really do feel your pain. Our situations are a lot alike, and I know what you are going thru. I go thru these cycles of sorrow, anger, rage, acceptance, complacency…. Then sorrow again. Sometimes this all happens in one day… sometimes it takes weeks to complete the cycle. The fact is, and I think deep down you probably know this, that there would be nothing… NOTHING better than putting your family back together again. As much as you are angry with your WW, and as much as you may feel hate for her, you know that would ultimately be the best thing to happen. It looks bleak, especially if she has already filed (did she file already? As I sit here I can’t remember if you mentioned that or not…) for the D. But it is a lengthy process. If you go about LBing, you will be destroying any chance that is there for reconciliation. Besides, you will likely be turning you kids against you. They can be one of you biggest assets in getting her back. I tell my kids every night that I care for mom very, very much and I miss her allot. But more than that, they see her acting like a lunatic whenever she is around and I act civilized and calm. They can see the difference in our behaviors, and I think it makes a big difference to them. They need to have one parent that they know they can count on, that they know they can trust. You need to be that parent. If you are engaged in war every time you are in her proximity… they won’t know who to trust…and I think that is where the real damage to the kids begins.

Just my humble opinion… Either way, come here to rage against you WW, don’t do it to her. Besides, there is dignity and pride in conducting yourself with honor and grace in the face of bitterness and aggression from your wife. Whenever I allow myself to be dragged down to her level of conduct (screaming and name calling usually) I just end up feeling terrible. I feel like I failed myself, I feel like I failed her and if nothing else I feel like I am giving her all the justification that she needs to think that her A was ok and right. I can see that I am rambling here (as I am prone to do from time to time) so I will bring this to a close.

Good Luck!

Jeff, yeah, WMWB can feel your pain, as a lot of guys on here can feel your pain. I don't know your whole situation so I cannot advise you one way or the other about divorce.

For me, I by no means wanted to file for divorce. Oh, I wanted to the pain to stop. I definitely wanted my wife home. I wanted and still want my family together (I miss our family life), but I had to come to the realization of how things were or are. I had to do a reality check. I had to evaluate. 1) My wife left me and our children to be with another man. 2) She had been with the other man for over a year. 3) She was pregnant with his child. 4) She was telling me every time we would speak that she was never coming back home.

Now, all of this could have been "fog", but then again it could have been how she really felt. This was the 4th man she had cheated with. Also, filing when I filed was free of charge for me. If I had waited things out, it would have costs me, thousands. Also, my argument would not have been as strong had I waited until a year. So in my situation I had to look at the whole picture. The time was ripe.

For you, you have to look at your own situation. It is true that your wife may be in a "fog". Look long and hard at the sitauation. Even though I still want my wife I can honestly say that I have no regrets for filing. I know I did all I could possibly do and waited as long as I could possibly wait. Only you know if the time is right for you. But I know your heart must be shattered right about now. The pain is worse than anything you've felt...and it is continuous!
So, do what you got to do. Venting here does help though.

Thanks guys.
GG- My children have their own disrespect for their mother, especially my oldest DS. She took us all by surprise when she moved out and they are very angry with her. I came to her defense at first but I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not aggitating but not defending either. Also, she is the one that told them about her OM and they are very upset about that too. They are intitled to their feelings, she made this bed, she can lay in it. War? Yes, please. I can't take the hurt anymore. She continues her A and shes with OM more often now that school is out and I have custody the first 6 weeeks of summer vacation. My oldest will ask her where she is and who she is with when she calls them. He gets very angry when she tells the truth and knows she is lying when she dosen't. She is hurting my children. Yes I am ready to go to war.

JW- My WW has disposed of the good times. I don't care if she suffers or not, she has brought this on herself. I do plan on as much dirt of her As being part of the Court record as possible. I have witnesses coming to testify as to the 2 As that I know of and plan on putting OM on the stand as well. I don't care if she is embarressed by it, it was her actions and I think she should be held accountable. I don't think it could compare to the hurt she has caused my children and me. WW will more than likely get custody, if my children ever want to know the whole truth, I want to have the Court record for them and let them see that I fought tooth and nail for them.

WIWH- My story briefly is that WW and I have been together 22 years married 17 as of 07/15/04. We have had problems in our marriage twice before, first about ten years ago and second about 7 years ago. Both times we went to MC and worked things out and were going on to live happily everafter. January 26th this year WW moved out and took the children with her. We hadn't been fussing and fighting, this was my first clue we had a problem. Like the 2 times before she tells me she isn't happy and doesn't want to be married anymore. She has an attorney and 2 days later I get my DV papers. She denies that there is an OM. My attorney tells me to "do some digging" and see what I can come up with. I started hearing rumors about an A from the time we had trouble 7 years ago and it is confirmed by 2 mutual friends that WW has admitted it to. Then I get a cell phone bill and there is one # that has over 400 minutes in 2 weeks. A Google search gives me name, cell phone #, home #, office #, address, job title, and age. WW works for the local public school in administration and OM works for the State Dept. of Education. I catch her at his home a 2 hour drive away. Her attorney tells her to cool it but every time I have the kids overnight she is there. She puts them on the phone with him, both are distressed by this but too polite to hang up or walk away. She has a cruise planned with him a couple of days after our anniversary and a couple of weeks before our scheduled DV day. For awhile, especially after finding this site, I felt like it might be possible to work things out and get back together yet again and that I wanted to do that. I tried Plan A for awhile but the hurt is too strong. I don't feel like I could ever let it go. Now I just want out. My kids are approaching the age where they can tell the judge who they want to live with and I think it will be me. Thats what I look forward to in the future.

DeafJeff, that is unfortunate. I can feel your pain through your posts. Brought a lot of my own pain back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Wew! All I can say is, if this is the route you are settled on taking, get all your gear in order. Be, as they say, wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove. I filed for d and my wife counterfiled, but I seriously doubt that it is going to trial. Too much is against her. I have over 20 witnesses, all who know us well and the children well, and know details of what happened during the last year.

My wife moved out and took nothing with her except the things that belonged to her. Nothing of the children's. No photo albums. No family videos. Clearly she only has herself on her mind. I never allowed her to take them fully. As soon as the opportunity arose they were with me all the time. Plus, I have many emails between me and her that express my love to her and even talks about her affairs. I have emails from the two of them talking about their love and how she knew how much I loved her, but that she just didn't love me anymore. She is facing abandonment, adultery, excessive cruelty and thousands upon thousands of dollars in attorney fees if she decides to continue (her attorney will have more than likely depose my witnesses to figure how they will testify.). So I stress, if this is what you want get your ducks lined up.

I would not advise being mean to her at all. Each time she talks to you or asks you a question I would be as sweet as honey, but at the same time try and protect yourself from her. If she is like my wife, she is flat out NASTY and CRUEL at times. I can't talk to my wife. Every time I do, I start feeling depressed. She is just that nasty.

So I wish you the best and I hope this is the right thing for you. You have all the support you may need here on this board.

Also, this is one thing that I keep in mind. Divorce is still not the end. You all can still get back together and remarried. So try and be nice and keep that door open, unless you truly don't want her ever again. I know I wrestle with that thought often. Can I ever be with this woman? After all of the affairs? the cruelty? the lact of remorse? the lack of concern for her own children? I don't know. Maybe.

Thanks WMWB??? and DTIA. You guys came in while I was rambling on in my response to the others. I guess maybe I am venting a little. I had to talk to WW on the phone this weekend and she managed to p!ss me off. She made a comment about my priorities. This is right after she told my oldest she was with OM and he all but hung up on her. She destroys our marriage, tears the family apart so she can have her fling and she questions my priorities. Didn't sleep too well last night. I will try to chill out. I have been doing an informal Plan B. No letter, just keeping contact to a bare minimum. We have to have some, 2 kids and a small town. I would like to do a PBL and I especiallly liked this one that cellophane posted in General Questions II:

WW,

When you dump the loser and get your head out of your a$$, give me a ring. Until then, I don't want to see your face.

Love,
CP


Feeling better now just getting some of this [censored] off my chest to people that understand. I still hate her guts, but wonder how long that will last.

Wow DTIA it looks to me like your WW really screwed herself. I wish mine had done that. She spent months preparing for this and had family and friends lined up to help her make her move. I don't think any of them knew about her OM and she tells us all that she didn't start "dating" him until after she moved out. I have eveidence that puts them together a couple of months earlier. Sorry about bring back the bad stuff.Your WW is pregnant by the OM and you still want her back? You are a way bigger man than I coulds ever be. This site and you guys really help.

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: deafjeff ]</small>

Hey, i like that letter!!!! Mine was a little more long winded, but that one sure does cut to the chase a little, eh!!!

I'm right there with ya, we are in a small town and have two small boys as well. That was a logistically impossible part of plan b which needed modifying to overcome. You see, my WW just refused to participate. She would not talk to my intermediary...at all!!!! So, i would discuss issues pertaining to the kids in the briefest manner possible. Exchanges were tough also, luckily we are able to do it at daycare these days. One of us will drop off and the other will pick up on exchange days. It sucks.

I know the feeling about them sucking the life out of you and making you nuts any time you have to talk to them... man they say some stupid sh*t don't they...?!?!? The whole priorities thing, yeah i got that too... I've gotten it all. I was kind of wondering if I was the only one, hence I started that other thread about the excuses given.

I had a fight with WW on Saturday that spanned 5 phone calls from 11:30 am till about 11:00 p.m. You see my youngest turns 3 today and out of the kindness of my heart (literally, no sarcasm there) I let her have them yesterday afternoon so she could have a party with her side of the family for him (it was my weekend, and i get them today). Well this was a week ago that I extended the offer and she calls up Sat. making all these demands and giving me ultimatums if i don't go along with her. Well, i wanted to negotiate the terms and she kept turnig the arguement against me... she is just such a bully. Finally after the 5th call (she likes to tell me "how it's gonna be" then hang up) she was in tears and screaming that I was the biggest @sshole she had ever met but that I could have things however I wanted... she was done fighting. It just drives you nuts though... i wasn't trying to be a jerk... but there were details that needed to be worked out and she wasn't willing to discuss them. I just don't understand why they can't be civil. I just don't get it.

Suffice to say, I know where you are coming from. And trust me... the less contact you have the better... for everyone! You feel better not having to deal with her crap, you don't LB, your kidws don't see or over hear any of the ugliness and bitterness. It really is the way to go I think.

Yeah, your wife was smarter than mine. My wife justed wanted to get out...so she could screw this guy in the comforts of her own home instead of the backseat of his jeep. Sounds like your wife planned this thing. But keep digging. I'm sure she messed up somewhere along the way.

WMWB, my wife does the EXACT same thing! Now I seriously thought that move was patented by her; speaking her peace then hanging up. That burns me up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> She will say some off the wall garbage then hang up before I can say anything. It is so good to hear that she is not the only one...or I'm not the only one who has to deal with that.

I'm usually the one that hangs up. I hear something that lights me up and I hang up before I respond in an inappropriate manner. Is telling her to have a good time with her OM with just a touch of sarcasm an LB?

My WW continues her A, her mind still controlled by aliens. I give up. Bring on the DV and lets get it over with.
It’s only been 3 months since you found out?

I don't believe in friendly DV
Does this mean you want it to be nasty?
You can be business like and discuss things without screaming and yelling, without being "friendly".

or feel like I can be friendly afterward.
You don’t have to be “friendly”.
But at times, you will have to discuss things. As above, do it business like, not adversarial.

Does it matter anymore if I LB???
Depends on how much you want everything to get nasty and ugly.

Your sig line is confusing.

Her move out day 01/26/04 mm/dd/yy
26 Jan 04
D-Day 02/17/04 mm/dd/yy
Feb 17 04
DV-Day 08/02/04 mm/dd/yy
Aug 02 04? (should this be (02/08/04 - 8 Feb 2004?)
What is DV-Day? Date filed for divorce?
Previous A approx. 7 years ago
D-Day 01/31/04
This is the d-day of the previous affair?

War is not the answer. You both end up losing.

I suggest a Plan B letter, followed by Plan B.

Go get caller ID. When your wife calls, the boys can answer if they want. Otherwise the answering machine can get it. Or if you’re like me and without an answering machine, it will just ring and ring. At which point, someone will unplug it. As you have the children with you, this should be easy.

Have you read up on Plan B?

If you both want a divorce, let your lawyers handle it. Stay out of it. In life, we all make enough enemies accidentally that we don’t need to purposely add another, especially one armed with the amount of ammo a spouse has.

Oooh. And you can file for child support if you have the children. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C-CA123:

My WW continues her A, her mind still controlled by aliens. I give up. Bring on the DV and lets get it over with.
It’s only been 3 months since you found out?
Thats correct.

I don't believe in friendly DV
Does this mean you want it to be nasty?
You can be business like and discuss things without screaming and yelling, without being "friendly".
With my WW if I amm anything less than bubbly she detects the animosity and turns it on her self.


or feel like I can be friendly afterward.
You don’t have to be “friendly”.
But at times, you will have to discuss things. As above, do it business like, not adversarial.

Does it matter anymore if I LB???
Depends on how much you want everything to get nasty and ugly.
Sometimes I want to get very nasty and ugly, I didn't ask for this, don't feel like I deserve this, and I'm ready to fight.

Your sig line is confusing.

Her move out day 01/26/04 mm/dd/yy
26 Jan 04
D-Day 02/17/04 mm/dd/yy
Feb 17 04
DV-Day 08/02/04 mm/dd/yy
Aug 02 04? (should this be (02/08/04 - 8 Feb 2004?)
What is DV-Day? Date filed for divorce?
Previous A approx. 7 years ago
D-Day 01/31/04
This is the d-day of the previous affair?

Sorry you have trouble w/ mm/dd/yy, thats what I use daily at work and am used to. Yes, 01/26/04 would be Jan. 26th, '04; 02/17/04 would be Feb. 17th, '04; 08/02/04 would be Aug. 2nd, '04. DV- D is my scheduled divorce day; and Jan. 31st, '04 is the D-day of her previous A approximately 7 years ago.

Personally, I recommend you be “cordial” when discussing anything with her. Stop the LBs. don’t give her any reason to be mad (except that her brain is inhabited by aliens).

My WW continues her A, her mind still controlled by aliens. I give up. Bring on the DV and lets get it over with.
Simply getting it over with and being nasty about it are two different things.

It’s only been 3 months since you found out?
Thats correct.
Any thoughts of Plan B?

With my WW if I amm anything less than bubbly she detects the animosity and turns it on her self.
So? Let the anger eat her up. And you NOT getting angry with her will only cause her more grief because she will have no reason to be angry with you.

Sometimes I want to get very nasty and ugly, I didn't ask for this, don't feel like I deserve this, and I'm ready to fight.
Is there anything you need to “fight” over? For instance, is she trying to screw you over and take everything you own? Or do you just want to make it ugly because?

You could be the bigger person and get along, regardless of what she does.

War is only going to cost you both, Jeff. And as both Chris and I pointed out, being nasty will drag the whole thing out.

The nicer you are now, or at least the lack of LBs, the more likely you are to get what you want. If you start going ballistic, she's going to say your unstable and not suitable as custodial parent.

You need to find a productive way to work out that rage. The gym. Cutting down trees. Something.

C-CA123: Im informally doing Plan B now. I haven't sent a PBL yet but have been thinking about it. A complete Plan B would be difficult, we have 2 DSs and live in a small town.
Something to fight over? Yes there is we have 2 DSs and she has threatened to "pack my [censored] and move as far away as I can and you will only see the boys when the paperwork says". That was in a face to face talk. I had been calm and no LBs but when she hit me with that I walked away before I could do something stupid. I am very capable of being stupid.

GG- I guess I was mostly just venting this a.m. You guys, especialy WMWB??? and DTIA have calmed me down quite a bit. As far as venting rage, I'm a parole officer and this is not a good time to be a parolee screwing up around here.

Hey DJ:

I’m not trying to beat you up or anything, for I can empathize completely with your feelings. But I think Green Gabbles and Chris are right. Whether you want to do plan B or just get it over with…. Giving in and giving her a war…complete with nasty battles and verbal jabs, bitterness, and attitude will only make things worse for everyone. Most importantly it will make things harder on your kids. They may be showing signs of hate toward your wife now, but deep down inside it is only a manifestation of the pain they feel for her walking out on them and their family. Deep down, they still love her and it is already tearing them apart that she left. If you start attacking her and going to war with her in a nasty, LB sort of way… man it will really make things tougher on them than this already is.

How do I know this, you may be saying to your self? Well, you see I was in their shoes too. My mom had an affair and left my dad when I was 16. I HATED my mom for almost a whole year for what she did… to me, to my brothers, to my dad, to our family. I hated her…she was dead to me. Then my dad got fed up with the false recoveries… her coming home, then leaving, then coming home, then leaving. He got very angry and basically turned to LB-ing as a standard practice for dealing with her. Even when discussing her to us or in front of us it was always negative and in LB fashion. The net effect… I began to realize that this hurt almost as much as what mom did. Watching the two of the engage in hate to one another was worse than her just leaving… only now instead of the hurt coming from one parent, now it comes from both.

You see, whether you want it to be this way or not, your kids are in the middle of this… period. They will be affected by how YOU handle this. They will be equally affected by how your WW handles this just as much… only you have no control over how she behaves. I was 16, my brothers were 12 and 10…right about the age of your kid’s right? Let me tell you, the effect on them was exponentially compounded on them. Both took a massive downturn in school, with friends, both have dabbled in drugs, both are what I would call underachievers to a large degree. Is the blame solely my parents fault? No, of course not. I’m a big believer in taking responsibility for ones self, and in that respect my brothers are truly the only ones responsible for where they are and how they got there (I don’t want to paint an overly bleak picture, both are good guys and both are in relatively good places in life. They both work hard and I think enjoy life. I just can’t help but wonder how things would be different if the circumstances had also been different).

I think that if you simply conduct yourself in a cold, calculated, business like manner you (and your kids) will be light years ahead of the curve. You will be more likely to get what you want out of the divorce and custody battle. Your kids will have an easier time. And you will feel better about yourself in how you conducted yourself during these tough times. I just read a stat in this months issue of Men’s Health that said something like 70% of people interviewed felt the true measure of a mans character is displayed with how he deals with a crisis. I think that for those of us who are dealing with the destruction of our families… there really is no greater crisis. As such, show those boys of yours your true character.