I'm not going to write a ton tonight. I had a great day driving my daughter to the Rec Center swimming...driving my son to work and to counseling...and networking all across town.

Anyway, I had a major event that I need to talk about. For those of you who do not know, I was married for 15 years to an abusive, mentally ill, serial cheater. It was a not an easy marriage, and I did work for years to try to save it--but it was not meant to be.

Okay...so here's the problem. We are divorced now and my kids each spend certain nights of the week with their dad. We are civil and get along pretty good, so every now and then a kid will say, "Can I stay at dad's for tonight or watch this TV show with him?" and since we only live 3 miles away--I'm cool with it.

So today my son went to his counseling appointment and on the drive down there, he told me that he arranged with his dad to go over after the appointment and watch TV and play on the internet (my son plays an interactive game calle Runescape). Okay. After the appointment, I drive my son over to his dad's house, and son walks in and starts walking downstairs to tell dad, "Hey! I'm here." He catches dad in a compromising position involving webcam and cybersex.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

To make matters worse, rather than stopping or trying to "cover up" or whatever (like most caught people might do), my exH SCREAMS at him and kicks him out of the house!! I mean, it was like he freaked out and was RAGING. It was scary!!!

Needless to say, my son was DEVASTATED. He just had a great session with his counselor about how much it hurt him when he caught his high school girlfriend cheating on him, and he was going to talk to his dad about it...and about our family breaking up...and man stuff. Then THIS!

He came running out of the house almost in tears (and he doesn't cry all that often), and when I asked him what's up, he said dad threw him out of the house. Sure enough, 2 seconds later my exH calls my cell phone screaming at me, "HE CAN'T JUST COME IN HERE! HE'S A DISTRACTION AND I HAVE SO MUCH WORK TO DO! THIS IS MY LIFE--WHAT MAKES HIM THINK HE CAN JUST COME OVER WHENEVER HE WANTS!" It wasn't so much What he said, but the way he said it--his voice sounded all panicky and over-the-edge.

I told exH, "Hey, no big deal. I'll take son home. I thought it was arranged; it obviously wasn't; and that's that" and then hung up. I was rattled. My son was rattled too. He doesn't know WHAT to think, except that he saw what his dad was doing.

It's weird. My kids know that part of the reason their dad and I broke up is that dad kept having affairs and I couldn't live with that--and those are almost the EXACT words that we used to explain that. But when we were talking about it, my son said it hit him FULL FORCE today exactly what that means. To some degree, since we've been separated, I think my exH has been able to hide his activities from the kids (of course, they are young and don't know what to look for--and probably choose not to look!), and son told me that he thought maybe dad was doing better or not into that anymore--you know. To walk RIGHT INTO IT, especially after being all opened up after a counseling session...OY GEVALT!

My son is SO UPSET!! He's mad because his dad didn't stop the SA--he just hid it better. He's mad because his dad kicked him out of the house. He's mad because his dad screamed at him. He's mad because some chick his dad met on the web means more to him that his own son. He's mad because...well, son felt bad when the family broke up, but also kind of felt like that was happening to me...his dad was choosing the affairs over me...and now his own dad has chosen the cyber affairs over HIM.

OMG. What in the world do I do? All I can think of to do is talk to him and let him have freedom to be angry--as long as he uses words. All I can think of is to show him that he has a place HERE and that I always want him. Yes, he irritates me with his teenage fooling around, loud music, messy room, and goofy looking clothes, but that's teenage stuff. I mean, in my life, even when the day comes that I do love again and have a healthy relationship with someone, he will have a PLACE.

AARRGGHH!! I just feel so awful inside. It's hurting him; he won't even SPEAK to exH; and I can't fix it!! AARRGGHH!!

(beating head against the wall emoticon here)


CJ

CJ, my father is a lot like your X although, thank heavens, I never had that experience. The best thing my mother did was give us permission to be disgusted, hurt, and angry. And to tell us it was okay if we didn’t want to talk to dad or spend time with dad.

Since we were older, she also supported us when one of us would come to the conclusion that Dad’s own way of loving us wasn’t good enough. We knew we’d never get anything more, but we didn’t have to be satisfied or hugely appreciative for the odd token of love that would fall or say that he was a great father when he was a piss-poor one.

You must be doing a lot of things right if your son would share that experience with you in such detail. Your son must trust you a lot.

FaithfulWife,

I'm glad your son had a great visit w/ his counselor--and is working through his issues--

I am sorry that he had to walk in on his dad--

now he get's to deal with the reality you have been dealing with for so long--and he is seeing first hand how porn/affairs can harm a family---
and not just the "wife" as you said--for a long time he's looked at it as "He cheated on *YOU* and not the fact he cheated the family out of a father"

And I would say your ex did respond out of embarassment--which is why he raged--as from what you've said in the past--he doesn't know how to actually let himself "feel" his emotions and acknowledge them for what they are--"guilt, shame"
and whatever--

And your son has every right to be upset--and he needs to be able to acknowledge how he is feeling--and allow himself to actually FEEL what is going on inside--(as that can help him to become a better husband and father one day) being able to acknowledge and put into words what he's feeling--a lot of men can't do that--(his dad for one)

And you know--your right, YOU CAN'T FIX THIS!!!
This is between your son and his dad--this is about THEIR RELATIONSHIP--And really doesn't involve you--except to the point that you can help your son learn to acknowledge and verbalize what he's feeling inside to learn better communication skills--and as you said--let him know he has a safe place in your home--

You can also use this to teach your son about loving people who don't always act "loveable" something that will help him in years to come--

And in dealing with the reality of it all--He will grow up to a more emotionally mature adult--and therefore a better husband and father to his own children--

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

I’d just like to add to TR’s end statement that there are lots of ways of caring for your parents even when you don’t love them the way you wish you could. You can show them the respect they are due simply by being your bio parent, but you can also decided “I’m not going to put myself out there emotionally for this person.”

CJ, I don’t know how bad your X is. My father not only is/was a sex addict, but was diagnosed as a sociopath. He is incapable of loving us. Using us, yes. Loving what we can give him, yes. Loving us as individuals out of his control? No way. If your X is like this, I say also give your children permission to exclude him from most of their life when they are legally able to.

Haven't talked to you for so long!

I'm so sorry your son had to go though this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

And you are right, you can't "fix" this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can think of to do is talk to him and let him have freedom to be angry--as long as he uses words. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are on the right track.

I'm thinking of you!

(((((CJ)))))

G.

We need to change our names here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

(((((CJ)))))

No advice, just a hug!

E

Oh hey... My Chris is a runescape freak lately... I have to kick his little rear off the puter to get a minute!

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: justthewife ]</small>

You can't fix it any more than you can fix your x. When is son's next counseling appt? Could it be sooner rather than later?

Can you do anything with the:

"I understand how you feel....."
"I felt...."
"This is what I found....."

statements?

Greengables,

You wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The best thing my mother did was give us permission to be disgusted, hurt, and angry. And to tell us it was okay if we didn’t want to talk to dad or spend time with dad.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHOA! It does not sound like your dad was a very good example of fatherly parenting! (cough cough) At first your comments seemed kind of harsh to me, but after thinking about it a minute, I suspect my son did actually feel somewhat disgusted and that's a tough thing to feel toward your parent.

Today, my exH wanted to come over and talk to my son, and my son said, "All he wants to do is come over and force me to act like it's alright, and it's NOT Alright!!" So I asked my son if I was hearing him say that he wanted to be angry at his dad until HE was ready to not be mad...and he said yes! Those were the exact words I said to my exH: "(Son) is not ready to talk about it yet and would like to be able to be mad at you until he is ready. He will call you when he is ready to talk"--and he did too.

My point is that I gave him permission to feel angry, disappointed...whatever...until he was ready to move ahead. Frankly, I was impressed that he was ready today. We also practiced the WTFS model, "When you----, I think---, I feel---, so I'm going to ask---."

* * * * *

TR--

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">now he get's to deal with the reality you have been dealing with for so long--and he is seeing first hand how porn/affairs can harm a family---

and not just the "wife" as you said--for a long time he's looked at it as "He cheated on *YOU* and not the fact he cheated the family out of a father"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is a concept that both of the kids are dealing with at their own pace as they get older, etc. For example, the first time he disappeared for 6 months, the kids were 10yo and 12yo (or so), and while they remember that he was not living with us, they didn't really entirely understand the concept of infidelity. The next time, 13yo and 15yo, they had both at least hit puberty and each had a little more mature view of relationships and fidelity and breaking up. The thing I am constantly amazed to discover, though, is that we have been entirely apart for almost two years now, and there are STILL things that the kids are processing.

My son told me that when we separated and got divorced he understood that the family was breaking up, but it was like, "Mom and Dad are divorcing because Dad keeps cheating, but he'll still always be my dad"--and I don't think he was minimizing it so much as the effects of the SA choices had not directly impacted him. Now they have. Before it was more vague--now it is personal.

My daughter came to me the other day and asked how old she was when her dad had his first affair, and I asked her, "Why do you ask Pookie?" and she said, "Because now that I think about it, he was gone A LOT! Was he with other women sometimes?" She's 14yo now and just starting to be of an age to start realizing...

It's probably going to be like this for their whole lives, because as they get older and mature and maybe go through something in their own life, it will trigger something in their brain and they'll say, "OMG! That's what that was!"

* * * * *

Greengables,

FYI, my exH has not been diagnoses as a sociopath, but does have tendencies to "love" people based on using them and waht they can give him. Do you know why I love me?? Because we (the kids and I) have already discussed that it's alright to have boundaries with parents and what are healthy emotional boundaries and what might be appropriate when a good boundary is trampled...stuff like that. In a wierd way, we kinda accept exH for who he is, a man who has multiple issues.

* * * * *

Ragamuffin,

HOLY SMOKE, girl...I can not believe you remember you MB password! heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks for stopping in and showing some support, and you are right. We have not talked in TOO LONG! And here we are wild west gals too! I must remedy this right away.

* * * * *

justthewife--

You know what?? I thought about changing my name on here, but chose not to, because I was and still am the FaithfulWife. I'm not sitting on my tookus waiting for him, but I was faithful and I'm proud of it, so ...

So, you're little guy is a Runescaper too, huh?? I'm telling ya--two bodies one brain sometimes. My son likes it so much that he'll play for hours, and sometimes I even watch him. Yesterday he did a HUGE trade for 10 suits of armor and then sold them to 10 of his friends. Oy, even in the game he's Jewish! Anyway, my email addy is in my signature...I'll send you my son's name in the game and you send you son's name in the game, and our kids will be second generations friends (moms are friends=Generation #1, kids are friends=Generation #2) (hey--it is the weekend you know!)

* * * * *

Your royal majesty!!

I am so honored that you would visit your humble servant and reply to my post! How goes the CS battle (closing the can of worms now)? As you can see, it actually went okay today. I think we really are handling it as well as can be expected--and pretty healthy. There were a few times today when son got like "raised voice" angry (ie, yelling at the dog), but I told him we were not spoken to that way in this house, so go ahead and express it in a better way. He REALLY responds to that.

Oh, our boys, huh?? It never ends, does it??


Thank you all again for you support and hugs. I sure needed 'em! Love you all!!


CJ