I have a letter from W's attorney via my attorney wanting to settle the child custody issue while leaving the rest of the divorce issues unsettled.

I'll type the letter here:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having reviewed and considered the testimony of our clients in the course of their discovery depositions on June 17th, I thought it would make common sense to see if we can settle the issue of custody and visitation. It is in this connection I write to you.

I'd like to suggest the following:

1) Mrs jSC would have sole custody.
2) A Joint Parenting Agreement would be executed.
3) Visitation would be standard and in keeping with the attached sheet.

If this is acceptable to your client, I'll gladly draft the necessary documents and submit them to you for your approval in the approval of your client. If we can settle this particular issue now, then the visitation schedule can go into effect now and that would mean Mr. jSC would have far greater time and access to his daughter.

As I see it, this is not a particulare complicated issue at this pint in time, and so I think it's reasonable to request your client's position by Friday, July 2nd.

//s//
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I feel in some respects my child has been taken from me, and she is using the possiblity of me having more access to YD as a carrot to get me to settle this issue. I really don't want a divorce at all, so in that respect, there is no reason for me to agree. I certainly don't want to be an every other weekend dad.

Seems the courts in our county suggest the standard every other weekend arrangement, so if we don't agree, there is a good chance that is what we will get.

So I need prayers for wisdom as I make this decision.

What would I like? I'd like for Ms jSC to drop this whole thing, and let's get to working on our marriage. However, I'm inclined to not accept this offer until I see the whole proposal. Given that this is likely what the court would award anyway, it seems pointless to just accept this without seeing the rest of what she is proposing.

Advice, prayers appreciated

Tony

Hi, Tony-meister.

I know you are a rather logical, analytical kind of fella, so you're probably going over and over the facts of this. May I make a suggestion?

Actually, this settlement offer is not too bad. First, it shows that she is willing to negotiate something, and that is a huge step forward! Soooo...be careful with your response to come across as being equally willing to negotiate in good faith. You remember what she said about feeling like she can't ever reach an agreement with you?? Keep that in mind.

Now...on to the actual offer. It's not awful and shows a good first effort, in my opinion. I would definitely turn down the "sole custody" and request joint custody with her being the primary residential parent. Otherwise the joint parenting agreement is a good offer, and the visitation is in fact possibly what you would get from a judge. Joint custody with her are primary residential means that you are both equally her parents, but that she lived more with your W than with you. Joint parenting means that you both make decisions regarding her schooling...her extra curricular activities...her religion...etc. And the visitation schedule, if you are comfortable with it, go with it. On the other hand, you may want to ask for a few more days that work well into your schedule. For example, maybe ask for every other weekend and one night per week (standard) plus picking her up at school on Fridays on your weekend and dropping her off on Monday mornings on your weekend (kind of extending that weekend). Or be creative and ask for every other weekend and TWO days a week...or one whole month in the summer...

I think the goal here is to be realistic and make a reasonable request as an option back to her. Make it clear, in a firm but pleasant way, that you want as much time as possible with your daughter, that you want joint custody and parenting, and that you are willing to be creative and consider options. Most important though...be realistic. You are going to lose some time with your daughter, and so is she!

This is actually a fairly encouraging opening offer!


CJ

I agree that sole custody is not an option - do you really want to be removed from the decision-making responsibilities for your children? Not the way I've read your posts from the get-go.

I like CJ's approach.

And CJ - you need a new name - like Faithful or Faithful2God!

Thank you ladies, keep the ideas coming. I want to make a logical decision that is best for Camy, not a decision of of anger.

Here is another potential response:

The marriage is NOT irretrievably broken, so there is no reason to settle at this time. No attempts at reconciliation with professional marriage counsellors have been attempted at this time. The best interest of YD is to attempt to reconcile the marriage to provide YD with access to a happy mother and father who live together. Until professional marriage counselling has been attempted, I cannot accept that the marriage is irretrievably broken.

Tony ---

I'm leaning toward the reconciliation statement at this point in time, with a request (strongly worded) for marriage counseling at court order.

I like that one.

Blessings,

Jan

Okay,

As a concept and belief, OBVIOUSLY I agree with the reconciliation statement. However, in this particular instance, MrsJSC has made it very clear that she does not believe she can negotiate with Java/Tony, and I feel that the reconciliaiton statement will be thrown back in his face as a "SEE??!!! Told you he can't negotiate. It's his way or no way." IN this particular instance, and in this specific set of circumstances, I believe it would be wisest to respond in some sort of negotiating way to indicate willingness to bend.

Tony, the goals here are:
1) to reconcile the marriage
2) to win back your wife's respect
3) to do what is best for your little girl
Right??

In the absence of reconciling the marriage, you still want #2 and #3, right?

We need to take an approach that wins the war, not just this "battle." We need to consider the whole playing field. And that is why I advised you as I did. To make a big step in the #3 goal, a good step in the #2 goal, and facing the right direction in the #1 goal.

If you want be win this one, you may have to lose a few minor skirmishes--and no, custody is not minor, but negotiation tactics ARE. They are suggestions you send back and forth to each other that say, "I am not unreasonable. I can bend a little."

Now, to brainstorm:

1) You would be willing to go for standard visitation schedules if she would be willing to go to 6 marriage counseling sessions.

2) You would be willing to agree to Joint custody with her as primary residence, if she would be willing to meet with an intermediary (You know WHO!)

3) You would be willing to accept a Joint Parenting agreement, if they would fax you a copy of some sample wording.

4) You would be willing to agree to 50/50 physical custody if she would be willing to accept 25% child support.

Do you see a pattern here Tony? You make a suggestion back what you would be willing to agree to. This indicates that you are WILLING. If you send the reconciliation statement or don't agree to anything, well, my good friend, you have proven her point!

Here's the hardest part of this whole divorce situation. You may not be able to stop her even if you don't agree...AND...without being a little flexible, you will lose what you hold dear. A divorce is a loss--that's all there is to it.

So consider my thoughts wisely, and whatever you decide is best for you...I'm behind ya.

(hey!! I'm back here!! behind ya!!)


CJ

CJ,

I like the way you think.

On #1 I would like to make that contingent on a fair assessment by the counsellor that each party did actually try and not just sit through the sessions.

So for instance, each session would have "homework" that was graded by the counsellor. So if the counsellor said to fill out the emotional needs and LB questionares, then WW would have to do this and provide clearly understood answers. If not, then she it is indicated that she is not actively participating in the counselling.

If I'm assigned to correct some LB, and I fail miserably, that too is noted by the counsellor.

So I like where these are going, and I want to extend them to protect both of us.

Ditto with #2, there would have to be some indication that she was being open, and not just talking to the intermediary and saying, I don't like being married to him, so I don't want to any more. Some real information has to come out of it, and perhaps even a plan for possible reconciliation before the divorce is put back in progress.

#3 is obvious, I've already written in my notes that it is too vague the way it is presented now.

#4 is interesting, offering more tax-free money to W for more time with YD.

Interesting.

Thanks,

Tony

CJ, is your e-mail broken, LOL?

T

I'm going to be bone-achingly blunt with you Tony. You can not force her to try or to do it your way. For it to be a true recovery, SHE has to want to do it of her own accord, and no judge or counselor can "force" her to "actually try."

Do you honestly think that forcing her to do the assigned homework from a counselor she does not want to go to, is going to increase her desire to want to go back to you? Seriously....do you??

I could be more gentle about this, but if I remember correctly you are a buffalo, and a little hard-hitting honesty is the way you prefer it. So I'm being a little rough here. You can not MAKE her want to be married to you, and I can pretty much guarantee that forcing her to try is going to prove her point again!

Honestly--what are you willing to give up if she is willing to give up something? what are you willing to give more of if she is willing to give more of something??

My suggestion about the counselor was more along the lines of "I'm willing to give if you are willing to give" and just get her butt there--and thereafter hope that you have a counselor who can actually help! My suggestion about the mediator was to take step one toward talking with you and negotiating with you. At this point, she has openned the door a TINY bit and it feels like you are trying to force it open.

Tony, in my opinion you are going the exact opposite direction of where you need to go to win back your wife--or if that is not possible, to have the best possible outcome of this divorce. She gave you a small window of opportunity. Use it wisely to show her you have changed and you respect her. Your responses about forcing her to try and forcing her to do homework...all that says is, "I hear that you have been too hurt to continue this relationship, but I do not care. I want it my way and don't care if you hurt to get my way." Is that what you want to communicate to her??

Am I suggesting that you help "hurry" the divorce along?? HECK NO!! I am suggesting that you demonstrate empathetic listening. I am suggesting that you remember to think of the feelings. She stuck her neck out. Stick yours out a little now too.

Now...more brainstorming (these are each different options--you can use one, modify it, tweek it to fit, or use them all, or use none):

1) You would be willing to (insert something she has been asking you to do or give her or ???) if she would be willing to go to marriage counseling by court order.

2) You would be willing to get some sample joint custody agreements off the internet and send her some proposals in two days.

3) You would be willing to discuss some joint parenting verbage if it was in the presence of an intermediary.

4) You would be willing to agree to a visitation schedule within the next week so that the best interests of your D be served and her life is as steady and settled as possible

Once again--these are ideas to get your juices flowing Tony.

The alternative is to not negotiate, not agree to anything, be unwilling to give up and unwilling to give more of, and drag it on for years and years of animosity. If that is your choice, it may TAKE longer, but the outcome will still be a divorce.

OTOH, if you start to show willingness to bend, if you agree to some things, if you demonstrate you can let her win and be amicable, if you SHOW HER that you can care and not hurt her--then it may still take years but there is the underlying foundation being built to possibly rebuild.

Like MrsJSC, you have to WANT to do this of your own accord and you have to reach this conclusion on your own. I can not force you to do this. But please be wise my friend. You asked her and asked her and asked her to negotiate, and she is giving you the chance to prove you can do it without hurting her. SHOW her that you can!

I even volunteer to help you! We have a golden opportunity dropped into our lap that is an answer to that question we were wondering about--well here it is! Let's use it!! Allow your wisdom to override your hurt feelings. Okay??? Allow me to help you.


CJ

Thanks,

We are WAAAAYYYYY past my prime brain function time. Heck it's tomorrow both here and where you are now.

So I'm gonna hit the hay, so I'm fresh for YD and the birthday party we are attending.

Thanks again,

Tony

Hey Java--

Attorneys are a lot of fun. Just remember they are the only ones who benefit from a divorce.

I got a similar letter a couple of months ago. Asking for everything, complete, I say complete spousal support and stripping me of my rights as a parent. Also told me, oops "asked me" if it would be ok if they moved 1200 miles away. Needless to say I am a bit bitter.

The one thing I have learned in this ordeal, Turst In The Lord to provide the truth. Be the best parent you can be to your children whenever you have the opportunity. Call them everyday to tell them to have a great day and call them every night to tell them to have sweet dreams.

I am fighting this divorce to the end. I have no money, but somehow the Lord is providing.

I know that I am a great father to my children. I know this because I can tell my children really love me and they are happy when they are close to me.

Please understand that there is nothing you can do about getting letters from "the other side". Try your best to brush them off.

If divorce is where you finally end up, please just make sure that you have done everything you could have to honor the Lord and his will in your life. It might not look like it now, but I promise the Truth will show in the end.

Don't really know if this helps, but I am a couple of months further down the road than you and have experienced many of the same emotions. What I said above is how I dealt with and was able to move forward. Heck, in the middle of all this, I have managed to write a children's book. Go figure.

God Bless --

Good going CJ ---

My negotiator is stuck at the moment. (YUK in my own life.) But I like the negotiations to get her to counseling.

I wasn't implying JUST the reconciliation - but I really LIKE putting that in there somewhere for the Judge to see.

I don't see Tony as a bad person. Kind of a *lug* but, those can be the best kinda guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . (LUG being Logical Ubiquitous Guardian - or all knowing man of logic, protecting others) LOL

Jan

CJ is on the money!!!

Tony, you can make her go to the counselor. She can be ordered to sit in the sessions. But she can't be made to work on herself. She and she alone has to hold up the mirror and look at herself. You can not do that for her and you can not make her do it. She must choose to do so.

I sat in the counselor's office with my now-x lots of times. And just how much work did he do on himself. ZIP. NONE. NADA.

As for custody, if it gets to that point, take nothing less than joint. In some places, you can not order medical treatment for a child if you do not have custody - from what I hear. If your child's mother is out of town, you need to be able to do that if child is with you.

I must confess that I KNEW it would be hard to make decisions with my x so my joint custody is written giving me sole decision making power as long as I keep x informed on major decisions. See, he is a strong-willed man who treats me with little consideration and little cooperation. I had a feeling he would be difficult, life-long, to deal with and would feel nothing I did was right. Didn't think negotiation would go well because I had always capitulated to his wishes and he couldn't figure out what happened when I started fighting back when he tried to ram his divorce down my throat. (I suppose I just ranted a bit to tell you what to watch out for.)

(Funny thought, if he ever ended up on this site, would he be able to recognize himself?)

We have a non-standard visitation schedule. The attorneys and judge thought it was bizarre that, as much as we obviously disrespected each other in negotiations, we had worked out a visitation system that worked for all parties involved. It is written into the decree with the statement that we revert to the standard visitation if this self-concocted one ever becomes non-workable.

Other than those comments, listen to CJ. She is giving you really good advice.

(Lady-in-Waiting, my tiara is off to you.)

Don't say that you'd agree to her having custody if it means her having to sit thru counseling sessions. Wrongo man.

You're kids aren't worth that bargain ok?

You must use a different chip to get her to go to counseling.

And unfortunately, she may not cooperate once you're there. My x went one time and lied and lied and lied.

Yes, I'd love to see you reconcile but she may not respond to that at all. She does have her choice. I'd have loved for my x to woken up in time and saw the light...Instead, here he sat in a lawyer's office library crying as the court reporter typed and typed away and our marriage dissolved into a few typed pages. And his OW was already preggers by one month at the time so he was pressured to divorce asap.

But yes, lawyers win at divorce and unfortunately they only can work the system effectively so you must resign to this and get a decent one you can afford.

Please try your best to separate your emotions from your task at hand in the divorce, should things proceed ahead. That was the hard part for me and if I had to do it over again, I would have done that. It's like cutting a huge business deal with your dad, or mom, or some relative. And that you'd have to call their bluff or stand up against them. I know you want to heal. I know you want to save it, but the legal arena isn't the best way to do either plan A or B. It's a separate matter.

Just don't bargain for her to get to a counselor using the custody as the chip. She's for sure go for the bait as I would in a heartbeat...but if it were me today going to ordered counseling with my xh if I knew that my keeping custody was at stake, then I'd sit there and zone out the whole time just letting the time there fly by. I'd do whatever it took for the custody thing to go my way ok?

Don't say that you'd agree to her having custody if it means her having to sit thru counseling sessions. Wrongo man.

You're kids aren't worth that bargain ok?

You must use a different chip to get her to go to counseling.

And unfortunately, she may not cooperate once you're there. My x went one time and lied and lied and lied.

Yes, I'd love to see you reconcile but she may not respond to that at all. She does have her choice. I'd have loved for my x to woken up in time and saw the light...Instead, here he sat in a lawyer's office library crying as the court reporter typed and typed away and our marriage dissolved into a few typed pages. And his OW was already preggers by one month at the time so he was pressured to divorce asap.

But yes, lawyers win at divorce and unfortunately they only can work the system effectively so you must resign to this and get a decent one you can afford.

Please try your best to separate your emotions from your task at hand in the divorce, should things proceed ahead. That was the hard part for me and if I had to do it over again, I would have done that. It's like cutting a huge business deal with your dad, or mom, or some relative. And that you'd have to call their bluff or stand up against them. I know you want to heal. I know you want to save it, but the legal arena isn't the best way to do either plan A or B. It's a separate matter.

Just don't bargain for her to get to a counselor using the custody as the chip. She's for sure go for the bait as I would in a heartbeat...but if it were me today going to ordered counseling with my xh if I knew that my keeping custody was at stake, then I'd sit there and zone out the whole time just letting the time there fly by. I'd do whatever it took for the custody thing to go my way ok?

What she's offered is your worst case scenario. I'm surprised with the post which said this was a good offer. In my state, it's automatic joint legal custody, and then usually the mother is Parent of Primary residence. And my state is really starting with 50/50 custody, unless there are grounds for other choices (in my case X got less).
JSC, do you have the book, Mom's House/Dad's House? if not, go buy it. It has some great parenting plans mapped out.
I suggest you start with 50/50 and bargain down from there. We also included "communication counseling" requirements for the sake of the children. These happened initially, but then X refuses to do any appointments on his parenting time, so he won't complete the requirement. This may be your way to get together with your spouse for counseling.

There are many great alternatives for parenting plans. Think outside the box. You can request more time in the summer, or ask for more vacation time than your spouse gets to even it out.

The standard is no longer EOW, that's a dated concept. However, your final agreement depends on proximity of the homes to the school and other events.

Know also that you can agree to "Pendente lite" which means an agreement pending litigation. This would be temporary until the other issues are settled, and if you both can live with something in the temporary, then you might agree for it to become final.

When you consider a parenting plan, think in increments of 2 week periods (14 days). The old standard was F& S and one night during the week (T) so 4 days of 14, or less than 30%. This sounds like what your W is offering. Now, I'd counter with 7 of 14 days to get the 50/50, and work down from there. My friend does this as follows Week one Mom: M FSS, Dad: TWH
Week 2 Mom: TWH, Dad M FSS
They do monday as the switch day to break up a long week.
good luck with what ever you choose.

Double post

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: newly ]</small>

I didn't read it as her offer being a good offer as much as being a good sign she wants to negotiate.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by newly:
<strong>Know also that you can agree to "Pendente lite" which means an agreement pending litigation. This would be temporary until the other issues are settled, and if you both can live with something in the temporary, then you might agree for it to become final.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My lawyers told me that this can be dangerous, if you expect you may go to court instead of reaching your own final settlement. If you just want something "better" than what you have now, hoping that the final ruling will be closer to what you really want, you may be disappointed. Apparently, the courts often just make the temporary agreement permanent, instead of taking a real look at the situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I didn't read it as her offer being a good offer as much as being a good sign she wants to negotiate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me, I read it as a sign that they want to take a bargaining chip off the table by getting you to accept a raw deal.

But I'm cynical.