Now that I am divorced. I have further radom queries.

I am pondering is there any linking relationship connection to one's own father childhood relationship experince, our spouses and marital failures ?

After all this is the mid life course review time.

I wonder is this topic worth probing, another layer of the onion to peel back.

Conversly, to be researched, looked at indepth silently, or shared on the board, worthy of consideration, comparing notes, sharing experinces, or a topic to be forgotten, dismissed altogether or simply non applicable ?

I wonder at people's experinces with their dad's growing up. What were the father in our lives profiles like? Of course no right or wrong answers.

Just feedback, thoughts back or food for thought.


Does this provide more unique pieces to the puzzle or bypass the puzzle equation altogether?


Did father influences have any influences in what we expected or related from XS?


Did father mirror the S or X in any way?


Did everyone have a close, loving intimate attentive connection with their father?


Was everyone satisfied with their bonding experinces with father? Were the bonds deep, enriching or in wanting? Describe.


Was the father warm hearted, accessible and approachable? Describe.


Could you say that you truly experinced your father heart, love, affection, time ? Describe.


Was the father, cold, remote and unapproachable? Y/N


What were some of your best memorable pleasant experinces with your father?


Where there many? or few?


What were some of people's worst memorable times and experinces?


Were there many? Or few?


Was love freely given by fathers on the basis of acceptance or was love merited on a performance control base, achieving system need to do, in order to receive, approval acceptance, to gain love?


Were experinces with Father and Mother, loving, kind, respectful, demonstrative models?


Was father a strong and or protective model?


Were father passive and or unprotective model?


Were father passionate in their beliefs, values, visions, providing strong loving leadership?


Were father dispassionate in their beliefs, values, had no or few visions, mild leadership, follower?


Did fathers posses a character of morals, loyality, conscience, virtue, courage, boldness, intergity?


Did father posses lack of character, conscience, lack of courage, lack of intergrity, basically amoralist?


Did father provide guidance,wisdom and prepared you for life?


Did fathers offer guidance, coaching, mentoring through your young adult years?


Did fathers offer guidance, coaching, affirmation during your marriage?

Did father offer support during the trouble spots, in the martial relationship?


Did fathers offer only hands off the trouble spots in the martial relationship?


Did father stay on neutral ground to learnings of adultery, pending family break up? How did that make you feel?


Did fathers offer good solid moral support system to lean on during adversities in your marriage? How did that make you feel?


Did father offer no moral or no support system? How that you make you feel?


Were was there enough of father love to go around provide to a loving stable family culture?


Were fathers fair and reasonable in dealings the family/other siblings, were any scarcity issues?
Was the family pie evenly distributed ? Rating 1 7


Did father have concerning particular vices, major outstanding short comings, difficult personalities or unreasonably demanding to deal with ? Describe.


Did your father approve or disapprove of your current S or X as a life mate? Did it matter to you?


Did father and your S or X relate well or repel one another? How did S OR X
perceive your fathers, relationship? Describe.


What standards did father have about adultery?Describe.


What standards didn't father have about adultery? Describe.


What particular outstanding admirable strengths did fathers have? Describe.


Was father a realiable or a determential liability to the overall family ? Describe.


Was father mature or immature? Or simply missing in action most of the time?


Was father involved and interested in your own private world? How did it make you feel?


Was father univolved and uninterested in your own private world? How did it make you feel?


How did father help you achieve your potential or obtain your dreams? What role if any and why?

We re father expectations to high of you, to low or had any expectations?


Was father articulate, a good communicator and could express himself freely?


Was father temp more of the silent type, men of few but measured words?


Did father permit himself to be human and to be emotional? Express tears, joy, saddness, sorrow, happiness, love, generosity?


Did father express hard heartness, rigidness, cold nature, remoteness, indifference, miserly, critical, harshness, insenitive ?


Was father reserved and non- emotional?


Was father focused more on his career, trade, jobs, building ambition, recreation in a healthy way or unhealty way?


We're father priorities reasonably balanced focused on job, wife, family, recreation? Yes or No.

Did father have a strong family orientation?


Was father a self centered, solo mio, only mio me orientation type of person?


Did father have a strong faith belief system ?


Did father have little no faith belief system, or little?


Did father have many friends, or few friends?

Did father make his daughter(s) feel loved, valued, special, took delight pride and joy, in or avoided, lavished attentions on ?
Validation rating 1-7


Did father make his son(s) feel loved, valued, special, took delight pride and joy, in or avoided, lavished attentions on, with projects? Validation rating 1-7


Did father make mother feel loved, valued, appreciated, special, took delight pride and joy, in or avoided, lavished attentions on ?
Validation rating 1-7


Did father value performance, achievement, chores, duty, obligations, competitive. Children come first or to make him proud, look good, or all the way around well balanced in expectations?


Did father have normal healthy mindset?


Did father have abnormal unhealthy mindset?


Do you feel deeply, moderately, satisfied in the relationship with fathers ? Rating of 1 to 7


Do you feel deeply, moderately dissatisfied in the relationship with father? Rating of 1 to 7


Do you feel hurts if any, wounds caused by father were adequatey healed, resolved, dealt with forgiven, forgotten, fences mended?


Do you feel otherwise any hurts, wounds caused by father still unhealed, unresolved, undealt with unforgiven, fences unmended, iron gate clamped closed, in still possible negative bondage? To many alligators for some to broach the subject?


Would present relationship status bond with father be describes as intimately close, warm, tender, kind, still evolving, meaningful, bonds deeping?


Would present relationship status with father be descibed as remote, solar system away, distance, almost non existant, de-evolving or estranged?


If so what remedies would be needed to bridge gap?


Did you feel loved by father as a child and do you feel loved now as adult in your journey of life?

Did your father tell you he loved you as a child?


Has your father told lately that he loved you?


If you could change anything in the relationship dynamic's with father what would that be?


If you could say anything to your father right at this momement, without producing hurt feelings what would that be?


Has your father ever broken your heart in a significant manner ?


If so has the impact of father made a lasting negative impression or affected you adversely?


If so has your father ever taken steps to make ammends?


How satisfied are you today, at this moment of the treatment you receive from you fathers? Rating
1 to 7 ?


How dis- satisfied are you today, at this moment of the treatment you receive from your father ? Rating 1 to 7 ?


Do you feel you understand your fathers journey at this stage of life or not? Do you feel closer or further?


What do you respect and admire most about your fathers at this stage of life?


What do you least respect and admire about your father at this stage of life?


Is there still something special yet you would like to do with your father or recapture a special moment?

Do you feel that your fathers understanding your pain sorrow of the dissolution of your marriage is adequate, comforting, simply doesn't matter?


Do you feel there may be some negative patterns, traits, characteristics, that may be scripting out in your life from father playing out ?


Do you feel there may be some positive patterns, traits, characteristics, that may be scripting out in your life from father playing out?


What are you most greatful for about your father?


What are you least greatful for about your father?


What is the most valuable important lessons do you think you learned from your father?


What are the least valuable lessons do you think you learned from your father?


How have those lessons enchanced your life?


Have any of those lessons be counterproductive in your life?


Is your father someone you honor? Why?


Is your father someone you dishonor? Why?


Is your father, worthy of respect?


Is receiving your father blessing or validation important to you or not? Explain why?


Is there any connecting points relationship or triggers in our father relationship in regards to the adultery and/or severe dsyfunction? If not ok, If so what?


If so if there is a lesson to be learned? If not what will it take to heal, learn and halt the lesson?


If so what preventative steps could be taken or avoided in the future?


Do you feel like you have lived fathers similar type, legacy, improved legacy, or worsened the legacy better or for worse?


How important and influencial do you belive a fathers role has played in your life, marriage, family, divorce stage? If any describe?


What were your father priorties in life?


Well the questions I could think of for now. I have learned so much by writing already.

Feel free to add to any the questions, or comments. Interesting stage of life in the journey.

Sky Diver,

Honestly, I didn't read all of your questions. Half way through was enough for me.

I can say that my STBXW did not have a good relationship growing up with her father.

I believe that this had a major impact on our relationship. There where many times that she would say things that were practically a direct camparrison of me to her father and I had to remind her many times that I am not her father.

WIWH

I think that our parents' marriages -- both seemingly successful marriages of over 50 years -- were models for our own disasterous marriage. My father in law treated my mother in law, in my view, like an annoying gnat to be batted away and ignored. I never saw any tenderness between them. He simply did what he chose, and she went along with it. My husband was most like my father in law of the children in their family, and he was his mother's favorite.

I was my father's favorite. My mother dominated the marriage with what Harley calls "disrespectful judgments", quick to be nasty if he raised a question or concern.

For the first five years of our marriage, I dominated, imitating my mother. He became physically abusive. When he cracked my skull, I became like my mother in law, submissive, tolerant of disrespectful treatment.

He became attached to woman from work. I would not tolerate that and tried to interfere and got a broken arm for my trouble.

Four months later, I called the woman's husband who got the truth out of his wife that she had been having a physical affair with my husband for 8 months. I told all to my family and he admitted all to his.

It's been interesting to see the reaction of both families. My brother put it succinctly: "Affairs are common. Broken arms are not." My mother said, "Throw the bum out" and my entire family will not see him and is standing by waiting for me to wise up and get on with my life. Except my father, who thinks that there may be some hope even so. He knows what it is like to live with an abusive spouse.

My father in law was in a nursing home when this all blew up, and he died two weeks to the day later. My mother in law has maintained that I am the problem because I won't forgive him.

It has occurred to me, being mother of a son, that it may be even worse being the mother of a man who breaks his wife's arm and has an affair on her that it is to be the wife of such a man.

On a happy note, we both realize that we went into the marriage with serious misconceptions about how marriages work, and we are both working on our marriage. There has been little, if any, progress in Harley's MarriageBuilders program, yet I think we have hit upon a starting point at last -- we need to learn how to talk with each other respectfully and with care.


Cherished

<small>[ June 30, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

sky diver:


--I am pondering is there any linking relationship connection to one's own father childhood relationship experince, our spouses and marital failures ? --

TR--Yes, and not just father issues but FOO issues in general--

--I wonder is this topic worth probing, another layer of the onion to peel back. --

TR--Yes, it's worth it--it can help figure out what beliefs you have that may need to change within yourself--or not--

--Conversly, to be researched, looked at indepth silently, or shared on the board, worthy of consideration, comparing notes, sharing experinces, or a topic to be forgotten, dismissed altogether or simply non applicable ?

TR--I wouldn't dismiss it--but then as a Christian I understand that the sin's of the father can be past down to the third and fourth generation--

--Does this provide more unique pieces to the puzzle or bypass the puzzle equation altogether?

TR--For me--looking back at the FOO issues helped me come to a better understanding of myself--to where I could look at my own beliefs and compare them to what the Bible says concerning some of the issues--and determine if they were valid belief's or false beliefs--most were lies--so I had to learn the truth--of what a loving father and husband should be like--and my father certainly was not that--

--Did father influences have any influences in what we expected or related from XS?

TR--Not an XS, but a spouse--yes--and it wasn't good--

--Did father mirror the S or X in any way?

TR--No, but X mirrored father in many ways--

--Did everyone have a close, loving intimate attentive connection with their father?

TR--I guess that depends on what you mean by loving and intimate--my father was sexually abusive--does that fit??


--Was everyone satisfied with their bonding experinces with father? Were the bonds deep, enriching or in wanting? Describe.

TR--Most definately left wanting--explained above--


--Was the father warm hearted, accessible and approachable? Describe.-

TR--Hmmm--I guess that would depend--most pedophiles are warm hearted, accessible and approachable--they need to be in order to get close to their victims--but they are also manipulative, controlling and self-centered--


--Could you say that you truly experinced your father heart, love, affection, time ? Describe.

TR--Not my earthly father no--But My Heavenly Father yes--


--Was the father, cold, remote and unapproachable? Y/N

TR--Answered above--


--What were some of your best memorable pleasant experinces with your father?

TR--Hmmm--which do want most memorable or pleasant?? I guess that would have been when he took us to a nude beach--and he went out in a raft--and ended up having to walk back to the beach we were at--or maybe the time he was drunk--and running through the apartment complex wearing my mother's night gown yelling "I'm Tinkerbell"

Where there many? or few?

TR---not many--

--What were some of people's worst memorable times and experinces?

TR--I couldn't name them all--so I'll name one--when he backhanded me out of a chair because I wouldn't give it to a little girl throwing a temper tantrum--when there was an empty chair right next me---that she could have sat in--

--Were there many? Or few?

TR--Again--there were lots--of these--


--Was love freely given by fathers on the basis of acceptance or was love merited on a performance control base, achieving system need to do, in order to receive, approval acceptance, to gain love?--

TR--Love was dished out with a price tag--


--Were experinces with Father and Mother, loving, kind, respectful, demonstrative models?

TR--I'd rather not embarass my mother--but No, they weren't--


--Was father a strong and or protective model?

TR---strong yes, protective no--


--Were father passive and or unprotective model?

TR--passive no--agressive yes, unprotective most certainly--


--Were father passionate in their beliefs, values, visions, providing strong loving leadership?

TR--Passionate about his beliefs, values, and vision yes, he was the man, what he said went--didn't matter what anyone else wanted or felt--if you want to do drugs--do them at home--just make sure you have enough for everyone--loving leadership--NOT

--Did fathers posses a character of morals, loyality, conscience, virtue, courage, boldness, intergity?

TR--Nope--

--Did father posses lack of character, conscience, lack of courage, lack of intergrity, basically amoralist?

TR--Yep

--Did father provide guidance,wisdom and prepare you for life?

TR--LOL---yes, I gained much wisdom in the way's of the world of--abuse, sexual perversion, drugs, and alcohol--


--Did fathers offer guidance, coaching, mentoring through your young adult years?

TR--not the kind most kids need no--now if I wanted to live the lifestyle he did--sure--


--Did fathers offer guidance, coaching, affirmation during your marriage?

TR--nope--

--Did father offer support during the trouble spots, in the martial relationship?

TR--Nope


--Did fathers offer only hands off the trouble spots in the martial relationship?

TR--I didn't discuss my issues with him--

--Did father stay on neutral ground to learnings of adultery, pending family break up? How did that make you feel?

TR--again--I didn't seek his counsel


Did fathers offer good solid moral support system to lean on during adversities in your marriage? How did that make you feel?

TR--I didn't trust him to offer any type of support--knowing his background--


--Were fathers fair and reasonable in dealings the family/other siblings, were any scarcity issues? Was the family pie evenly distributed ? Rating 1 7

TR--He was equally verbally, mentally and emotionally abusive to everyone--so yes, it was pretty much evenly distributed--although--to my knowledge he was not equally abusive in the sexual area--I was the one favored in that department

--Did father have concerning particular vices, major outstanding short comings, difficult personalities or unreasonably demanding to deal with ? Describe.

TR--Yes, I believe they are discribed above--


--Did your father approve or disapprove of your current S or X as a life mate? Did it matter to you?

TR--He approved--which should have been a BIG CLUE to me--but it didn't matter one way or another really--


--Did father and your S or X relate well or repel one another? How did S OR X perceive your fathers, relationship? Describe.

TR---they didn't have a relationship--my ex didn't have a relationship w/ anyone--except his own FOO--


What standards did father have about adultry?
Describe.--

TR--Hmmmm--standards?? he was all for it--he had many affairs over the course of his marriage to my mother--and even a few during his marriage now--


--What particular outstanding admirable strengths did fathers have? Describe.

TR--None


--Was father a realiable or a determential liability to the overall family ? Describe.

TR--Again--that is answered above--


--Was father mature or immature? Or simply missing in action most of the time?

TR--immuture, and MIA

--Was father involved and interested in your own private world? How did it make you feel?

TR---as long as there was something in it for him--if he didn't feel it benefitted him he didn't care--(I used to pray he would be killed at war)


--How did father help you achieve your potential or obtain your dreams? What role if any and why?

TR--Only in looking back and dealing w/ these issue's was he of any help--when I realized just how screwed up he really was--was I able to make sense of it all--and heal--

--Were father expectations to high of you, to low or had any expectations?

TR--What would expecting your child to become pregnant in high school be considered?? high, low, or none??


--Was father articulate, a good communicator and could express himself freely?

TR--LOL--He certainly could express himself freely--but nobody else could--without being backhanded--


--Did father permit himself to be human and to be emotional? Express tears, joy, saddness, sorrow, happiness, love, generosity?

TR--He certainly had *human* characteristics--but in my opinion some of the one's you mentioned are *Godly* traits not human traits--and can't be shown by someone who doesn't know the real meaning of love--which can only come from knowing God--


--Did father express hard heartness, rigidness, cold nature, remoteness, indifference, miserly, critical, harshness, insenitive ?

TR--all of the above--unless he was getting something in return--

--Was father focused more on his career, trade, jobs, building ambition, recreation in a healthy way or unhealty way?

TR--Whatever benefited him the most at the time--

--We're father priorities reasonably balanced focused on job, wife, family, recreation? Yes or No.

TR--No--unless he was getting something in return--


--Was father a self centered, solo mio, only mio me orientation type of person?

TR--Yes--as was his father--

--Did father have a strong faith belief system ?

TR--Yes, faith in himself--that there was no God--
he doesn't answer to anyone but himself--He had to believe in something--it just wasn't God--

--Did father have many friends, or few friends?

TR--I guess that depends on your definition of friends--he had drinking buddies--he had buddies that shared in his sexual perversion--if those are what you consider friends--then I'd say he had lots of them--

--Did father make his daughter(s) feel loved, valued, special, took delight pride and joy, in or avoided, lavished attentions on ?
Validation rating 1-7

TR--No--


--Did father make his son(s) feel loved, valued, special, took delight pride and joy, in or avoided, lavished attentions on, with projects? Validation rating 1-7

TR--No


--Did father make mother feel loved, valued, appreciated, special, took delight pride and joy, in or avoided, lavished attentions on ?
Validation rating 1-7

TR--No


--Did father value performance, achievement, chores, duty, obligations, competitive. Children come first or to make him proud, look good, or all the way around well balanced in expectations?--

TR--Obligation--he was owed everything he got--


--Did father have normal healthy mindset?
TR--Define healthy--in my opinion--NO


--Did father have abnormal unhealthy mindset?

TR--He would say No, I would say yes--


--Do you feel deeply, moderately, satisfied in the relationship with fathers ? Rating of 1 to 7

TR--I'm okay with it now--


--Do you feel hurts if any, wounds caused by father were adequatey healed, resolved, dealt with forgiven, forgotten, fences mended?

TR--Some of them have been yes, but not all of them--even those that have been forgiven--are not forgotten--for the protection of others--


--Do you feel otherwise any hurts, wounds caused by father still unhealed, unresolved, undealt with unforgiven, fences unmended, iron gate clamped closed, in still possible negative bondage? To many alligators for some to broach the subject?

TR--I'm not afraid to deal with them at this point--as it only makes me stronger--and most of them I have dealt with--both in counseling, and with him--however, I still don't trust him to be alone w/ children--and don't think I ever will--
and that's more for the protection of the child--

--Would present relationship status bond with father be describes as intimately close, warm, tender, kind, still evolving, meaningful, bonds deeping?--

TR--Amicable--and still changing at this point--


If so what remedies would be needed to bridge gap?

TR--the only way some of the gaps could ever be filled would be for him to admit to certain people the truth--something I don't think he will ever do--in this life time anyway--as that would show me he's truly a changed and repentant man--

--Did you feel loved by father as a child and do you feel loved now as adult in your journey of life?

TR--No, but as an adult--I don't care if he loves me or not--as I know God loves me, and as an adult God is My father--

-Did your father tell you he loved you as a child?

TR--I don't remember--

--Has your father told lately that he loved you?

TR--yes, he has--just the other day--

--If you could say anything to your father right at this momement, without producing hurt feelings what would that be?

TR--I could tell him that I love him--

--Has your father ever broken your heart in a significant manner ?

TR--Yes

--If so has the impact of father made a lasting negative impression or affected you adversely?

TR--It had much to do with why I made so many bad choices in life--and then I sought help--so that I know better--and don't make those choices anymore--

--If so has your father ever taken steps to make ammends?

TR--to some degree yes, he has--

--How satisfied are you today, at this moment of the treatment you receive from you fathers? Rating
1 to 7 ?

TR--He treats me which a lot more respect as a person--so I'm okay with how he treats me at this point--


--Do you feel you understand your fathers journey at this stage of life or not? Do you feel closer or further?

TR--My father's journey?? I know he has a lot of his own issues to deal with even now--that he hasn't even attempted to do--so his journey is not mine to worry about--


--What do you respect and admire most about your fathers at this stage of life?

TR--Honestly--not a lot--other than he is going to church now--and he does believe there is a God--
although--I don't think he fully grasps the depth of relationship he could have with Christ--if he were to really look within himself through God's eyes--


--What do you least respect and admire about your father at this stage of life?

TR--His lack of openness and honestly--with himself and others--


--Is there still something special yet you would like to do with your father or recapture a special moment?

TR--no

--Do you feel there may be some negative patterns, traits, characteristics, that may be scripting out in your life from father playing out?

TR--Not anymore--

--Do you feel like you have lived fathers similar type, legacy, improved legacy, or worsened the legacy better or for worse?

TR--I've lived it---and by having confronted him on many of the issues God has changed it--for the better--

Anyway--not sure if any of this is helpful for you--but I've been through all of these things in counseling--have confronted him on many of the issues, and am still working on a few of them--

Dear Wish I Were Home.

Good to hear from you--sounds like you can clearly see where the orginal trauma fracture lines occured.

did not have a good relationship growing up with her father.

Ditto, my XH platform.

I believe that this had a major impact on our relationship.


I couldnt' agree with you more. I have found that shattered bond, unchecked can transfer over to create unsurmountable obstacles in the relationship. It is a choice though.

For those who won't get a grip on their pain. We didn't cause that orginal pain in the first place nor can we fix what others broke.

Though a huge disappointment to forbear the negative consequences of another wrong doings.


There where many times that she would say things that were practically a direct camparrison of me to her father and I had to remind her many times that I am not her father.

Wow, that's a slap shot, really sets a climate for a power struggle. Wondering, if she was so traumatized did she seek help about her own issues her father behaviours had such all consuming impact on her? Did she ever confront her dad?

My XH used our relationship over and over to reinact his unresolved baggage about his dad. He never had the courage, to deal directly with him about the reckless negliences, bullying,abuses, duplicities, etc.

In fact he is extremely terrified of his dad as are all his brother and sisters. They choose to play the facade instead. I don't understand but how it is.

I for one didn't have a good relationship with my father. Once I hit my early 20 and could see clearly what my father was all about, it was a matter of confronting him, holding him accountable for his wrong doings.

The trust was gone and it made my dad sad that he could never rebuild that trust again. Some things are simply irrepairable.

I didn't feel it right and fair that I should blame my XH for my father's wrong doings and hold him and my children hostage.

The cycle must stop somewhere. Broken records I think are only made to be played a few times--then stopped. It's is working.

My father simply became a very, very low priority in my life, my mother on the other hand because of her unresolved baggage with my father, her obsession with him, tried to have join her in her illusions. Didn't work. I didn't break the relationship and nor was it my responibilty to fix it.

I felt a void but that void made me realise that I needed a good father. God has wonderfully replaced and satisfied that void.

Wondering what exactly was your s vision for the relationship? What was her vision, dreams for the two of you?

Hi TR,

Big hugs for you too, thankyou for answering all the questions so throughly and honestly. I am very sorry for all the pain and depravity your father put you through.

As you and I know, the deeper healing cycles comes in deeper, deeper, stages. Divorce has it's own trauma.

I read all your responses and wondered did we have the same father figures? Your father mind set is pretty much the mind set of XH our children. Why I am so angry--the drugs, the alchol, the sex well it's all to be shared and passed around. XH couldn't pull that garbage as much in the marriage, around me. Now that he has liberal access to the kids it's a different ballgame.

Our journies have been so similar. Your part of visiting the nude beach really triggered a memory of my having to visit a nude beach with my parents, think when I was 14 or so. I was so disgusted with both of them. Wasn't that a cultural experince? What dark minds.

I felt much the same way as yourself and basically tuned out my father-- it angered him that I disconnected, I felt I could take care of my self and I did.

Went to counceling in my 20 at the sexual assult center, confronted him, held him accountable, errected strong boundries, forgave him, gave him a Bible, let him do his own thing---

He passed away over two years ago suddenly during all the upheavel in my marriage. Basically cursed God until the end. I did my part he choose differently.

My step father was most cruel, in his beatings with belts and resisting all his sick pervisions. That internal code in my hardware of the 10 commandments ,of knowing I wasn't going to sleep with my mother's husband. Quite the price to pay for not.

My mother's coped with going to her day job and focused on keeping her home spotless, homemaking duties, gardening. Permitting him to do what ever he wanted, appeasing her man, at any cost.

Her view was men will be men, they were all the same, just keep out of his way.

During my early 20, I woke up and started my journey into probing my maritial, personal and family dsyfunctional dynamics with counceling.

I started the process of wondering what's wrong with me.

Ended up confronting my Father, fired my own, choose God, seeing that he was absolutely reliable, trustworthy, non perverse, wonderful father.

We've come a long way baby, God has brought us through terrible tradegies, the worst is over.

Huggs

Strange this topic should come up. My stbxw did go to counseling for a couple of months and quit. All she would admit to was her counselor told her she had a "bad" relationship with her father. Didn't get enough love from him as a child. Therefor she is always seeking the attention and love of other men. Subconciously she chose me as her mate because I was so much like her father. She has transfered all her feelings of hate against her father to me. I have changed and figured out most of what went wrong and would like the chance to work things out. She says she still loves her father but not me. I'm still the bad guy and it's to late. Oh how I hate those words....

So to answer your question it seems as though our relationships with our fathers do have a very large bearing on how we conduct ourselves with our spouses in the future.

My Dad was a hard working very honest and good man. He did leave us alone alot mostly working and golfing. I felt bad for my My Mom and vowed I would never do that to my spouse. Before I knew it I became a workaholic and took my wife for granted as well. As the old saying goes the seed doesn't fall far from the tree.

But what ever happened to second chances. I am in one of my moods today and I am feeling so cheated. In many ways. Where is the justice ? Where is the compassion ? Where is the sense of morality ?

From what I can tell she is also in a tremendous amount of pain and guilt. For some strange reason I still have compassion for her and feel her pain as well as my own.

She won't come clean with me and tell me all the things she has done that she is so guilty about. I feel these are many of the road blocks that keeps her from giving us a second chance.

I guess many of us will never know.

Rant complete ! Thanks for listening..

David A

Hi David A

Whoah. That must be so hurtful. I am sorry that your STBX, is unwilling to fix the pain that her father caused her. It must hurt so much. Only she and God can fix what she and others have broken.

It is a choice though-- just because some of us had dissappointing and unsavory experinces. Not fair to project all that hurt on those who were not responsible. As we sort through the laundry pile. I knew I needed to confront the one who caused the hurt.

If I choose to unload my bitterness and had need for revenge on my XH. I can't imagine the chaos and havoc. I think by reading the above posts from Cherished, TR, there has been much suffering harm caused. We have suffered much.

Boils down to CHOICE.

Not fair to have to pay the consequences for another gross wrong doings. We can be there for their support, compassion, and stand along side for thier healing, but this nonsence in imho is lunancy...

Although you are terribly hurting. I am happy for you that you are choosing a better way. Think there are more appropiate ways to handle our hurts, disappointments ,than having affairs.

What was your growing up like and relationship with your dad?

My dearest friends to have acted out the same way, I was very upset in their way of handling conflict in their own marriages.

Both sisters actually, they could never go to the source their dad's, and hold him accountable, but lived in dsyfunctional delusional family, but acted out with affairs.

Their MO was simply" Afterall we are daddy's little girls." Truth was thier father was having alot of affairs, which no one really ever talked about, mom of course was pretty much the door mat, took all the abuse.

The family lived in tremendous fear of dad, as no one ever really talked about dad his messin around... just simply acted out the aggressive dynamics in their own marriages.

Actually, my neighbor did a similar thing. Her husband was a pastor, and the piano man had obviously many things to teach. Her father was from I learned a harsh mean man. What tradegies.

I was so saddened by thier poor choices, they had great husbands, too. My one friend admitted though as woman, she was foolish, very weak and sucker for men who were demonstrative, charming men who were affectionate, and gave loads of undivided attention.

Mind you I did have confrontation with one of the guys, called them on their behaviors, and to slide off. I cared very deeply for my friend and her husband. They had a good marriage, were good people, but hit some bad patches like most marriages.

Their husbands felt they were showing love by working all the time. Misconceptions, misunderstandings of what a healthy relationship should look like.

Sometime their dad never did he was busy else where, living his secret double life with the women from who know's wheres.

Both sisters are back in their marriages working things out with thier husbands. Dear Ole dad...

It's a mad world... Take care

Dear Cherished-- (You called it right-You are so worth it.)

I wrote you a long post yesterday, hit the reply and somehow my post got lost in cyber space. I was about to reply all over again, when I noticed David A. So to keep things straight, though I would reply to him, and next to you, as your I am most touched by your sad situation. How terrible.

I will reply a bit later as I am going out for dinner with my son& mother. I can't believe the heartbreaks. You are so strong...

Sorry for not responding sooner. Thank you for sharing and being so honest. We will heal.
Big hugs...

Dear Cherished-- (You called it right-You are so worth it.)

I wrote you a long post yesterday, hit the reply and somehow my post got lost in cyber space. I was about to reply all over again, when I noticed David A. So to keep things straight, thought I would reply to him, and next to you, to keep the thread straight. I am deeply grieved and most touched by your sad situation. How terrible.

I will reply a bit later as I am going out for dinner with my son& mother. I can't believe the heartbreaks. You are so strong and deserve to be treated with far more respect and kindness...

Sorry for not responding sooner. Thank you for sharing and being so honest. We will heal.
Big hugs...

Hi Skydiver,
I had a good relaionship with my Dad and still do. He even took me in for 5 months while I voluntarily gave my stbxw a seperation she wanted.

As I said in my previous post he was away alot working and playing golf. He did take the time to instill in me a a very strong sense of right and wrong. In morality, in standing up for what you believe in, to help the underdog and those in need, etc.

Would I have liked more time with him ? Of course I would have. I believed he did all he could and spent the majority of his time working to provide for his family.

Where is the balance between nurturer and provider. I guess I did't get that from my Dad as I put more importance on being the provider. Who was to know that because our fathers worked so hard to provide us with a good life that it would leave us emotionally crippled and unable to have a fullfilling relationship with our spouses.

I think most of our Dads would have done things differently had they known or had someone to teach them as we are now learning, albeit to late for most of us to save our current relationships.

What I don't understand and really frustrates me is the inability of a once good Christian person to forgive and give someone a second chance once they realize what the relationship lacked and how to make it much better. It would be one thing if we didn't really have the love in out hearts, but to have the love and not the smarts to express it, is that a reason to cut us off at the knees and not be given a "Second Chance" ?

My problem is I'm a "McGuyver" type guy. There isn't anything I can't fix once I study it for a while and figure out how it works. Problem is I never, until recently applied that to my relationship with my stbxw. For a logical thinker and fix it type person like myself to try and make sense out of someone like my stbxw's inability to try and fix a problem once it has been brought to light drives me near insane. The only answer I get is "I don't want to". There is no way to reason with a brick wall.

She won't talk to her father about her feelings. She is using the reasoning that he is old and has enough problems and doesn't need to be confronted in this manner. Funny thing her older sister feels the same way and she won't do anything about confronting him with her feelings. They talk about it with their mother but not Dad.

Sorry for the marathon post. My screen name on various services is proliphicwriter. Now you know why... Peace be with us !

David A

Hi David A,

I have read your post and have been led very strongly to pray for you and your stbx over these last few days.

Thanks for sharing your insights. You are most fortunate that you had a semi balanced foundation with your dad, good provider, with a value system, but sad leaving a void in your own soul of a different kind.

Think the depression era, two world wars, had left a deep scarring, in millions of men dreaming of the day of freedom, release from oppresion.

One day to be able to adequately provide safety, peace, shelter, food, transporation, medicine, clothing, education, for their entire families.

I believe, our generation lacks that reality of understanding what life really was like for many families, not having even the remote basics. When deep survival is on the line, and entire family lives hangs on fragile balance. It would seem that emotinal needs would be last rung of survival. Yet, I am amazed it is a top priority with God.

Sad, that God, was left out of the big picture of what a true model of what true manhood was really about. Priorities, becoming skewed.

Nuturing, imtimacy relationship that God has had from the begining with man throughout OT is wonderful. I read in Deut 10: 12 up to verse 15, 16 a wonderful passage.

Verse 15, Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16: Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

I read this verse, about a Father's desire to love and it's all about the state of heart.

Of course the rest of the scriptures, and with Jesus we see the deep closeness, affection, communion with his own father, compassion, strength, etc.

Seems, the church for centuries too, missed the mark, in leaving so men crippled, overworked and confused. Not understanding God's expectations that women, children were to experince this great direct love from God, stewarded to men to also provide, by his grace.

Sad, so many fathers missed that important connection with their sons & particulary missed that kind of relationship with their fathers. As with daughters.


I have been praying that God would reveal His direct loving presense in your STBX life and heal the deep scarring.

Perhaps, she has never felt that deep connection, where the breakage occured, and how does one go about fixing broken spirit in another.

This is the place none can fix, since it's invisable dimension. How do we fix what we can't see? Or have access too, or tools ? Isn't that the frustrating part.

If she says" she doesn't want to".
Address the hurt, pain-- she can close that door for awhile--but after all the attention drama, excitement settles down, life becomes a dull routine with the om.

The emotions do kick in guilt, shame, doubts, fears, conflicts settle in, the pile will still be waiting for her to deal with.

Then what? If she proves to drag in to much negative baggage, I think the om sounds like too much an escape artist to want to hang with her for too, long.

Especially, when he can access more women, using the same angles he hooked your STBX. When she's down and out, not meeting his needs 24/7. What then?

I too, wish that she would give you a second chance that there would be a turning of her heart.

It's the bondage she is in that makes it so difficult to come out of. Sounds like there is too, much pain to deal with her father, and why she is just shut down.

With my best friend , it took her 4 yrs to finally break free from the OM. She was in such torment and prayed, prayed, prayed with her husband. They both prayed regularily. One thinks where both husband and wife are Christians they could just zap out of it. God, needed to do a deeper healing in both thier hearts.

It was so difficult on her, especially her husband, who too, was in deep prayer for years.

The OM, in their case was her first love, she had a child with him at 16, gave the child up for adoption. 20 yrs later reconnecting with her son, first time, meant he sought his birth father. Birth father connecting with her, opened up a matrix right at vunerable time in her own marriage.

She had in her mind that one could only truly love once in her life, lost the true love of her life many years ago.

On top of it yet, the additional strains on her marriage, family life was discovering her daughter had been molested, was running away constantly. Her entire past, consequneces all showed up for dinner one day, all at once, wearing down her nerves and her husband.

The entire situation was a mess, no where to turn too, for help other than the Lord. Best the place to turn. On top it she was married once before, had another child, her husband committed adultery, which led her to become a christian. The marriage ended up in divorce.

God blessing her 1 yr later with her Christian husband. Surly, her past was resolved and put behind her.

I wanted to give you of an example of how messed up one can become. Her background with her abusive, and adultress father script replaying in her life. The last thing she wanted playing out in her life.

How could her dear husband possibly fix all that damage in her soul?

She was so confused, torn up, at one point she wasn't even sure if the OM was really her first husband because they had a child together. Did that make him a husband, and she should be with him, or leave her present Christian husband. Or did she officially belong to her first legal husband. The agony on her part of betraying her husband, God, her self.

The OM just keep angling, angling, pressuring, pressuring, and knew all her weak spots. Felt that her husband never got in the way.

God did such a mighty wonderous, work. Her husband bless his steadfastness in the Lord, humbled himself. How he kept his calm, patience, and let her ride out the storm, was truly a great work of grace and trust in God.

He really did a serious cross exaimation, quit his second job, hung deeply in the scriptures, trusted God, what ever direction would please God the most he was willing to pick up his cross and follow.

As I shared, my friend firmly believes had there marriage been stronger in regards to having attention, affection. She would have been able to resist the persistant advances.

Further complicate matters, she wasn't attuned to herself or realised that their was even a remote spark still alive after so many years. Imagine her shock, disappointment--Being a Christian on top of things. She belived she had dealt with her sins, failures when she gave her life to Christ and pressed on.

Her husband being the hard worker, provider, too, like yourself, felt unprepared by his father. His father wasn't abusive but centered his entire life around ranch work, church, community. A good model of around the clock work ethic, of how to provide for a family.

Clueless of how to connect with his sons on any deep emotional level. Great with machinery, but didn't understand his sons were human beings, needing so much more interaction, affection, time.

Hence, as you stated so wonderfully the deep regret many of dad's figure out too late, they missed out something so important, and the crippling effect, which you speak about says it all.

After my girlfriend was finally free from her bondage, courage to permanenly end the relationship, NC---

Ironically, there was a heavy, heavy judgement pronounced on the om-- a few years later, he died in a freak accident, rolled his vechile on his property, and was crushed.

History of the OM, he had been married/divorced 2 before, had a live in women, multiple children from all these unions,still wanting my friend to join his harem.

Within a turn of day, he was extingushed. None of us prayed for ill will, but God had other plans.


I am praying that your STBX heart, soil which is so hard will be softened, prepared to receive the good seed and word again.


I am praying for you, that God deeply fills all the shattered pieces in your heart, and to fill it with his grace and love for you.


I am praying that there would be a healing in the marriage and your STBX will turn her heart home.

Prayer, fixes more than we can ever imagine, since we don't have the entire blueprints for one another, where does the re-engineering begin?

Blessing and prayers.....

Dear Cherished.

Still praying for you and your husband. The family dynamics are loaded and packed. I am so very sorry, soory that you have bore the brunt of all the intergenerational garbage.

Your definately the agent of change in family. Looking at the scope can you see where the rage from your husband comes from. The giant ice mass underneath. It has little to do with you, as the affair. It was a choice.

My XH family dynamics were similar vein, I didn't get the broken arm, over his affairs, but the all the rest punched, kicked etc. He was insane on alchol, and drugs basically a ticking time bomb, filled with negative energy.

Our goals, values about marriage and family quickly shifted as I found we were living his family script.

Until I investigated closer what my XH was doing and got a little to close, my XH decided that my life had no value to him anylonger. I never imagined he would resort to ill intentions.

Your quite right about the misconceptions about marriage they have ingrained. Although they had negative influences no one forced them to repeat the dynamics of toxic family background.

Communication is so important, and understanding that women, children are not inferior life forms. Or wives serve the purpose of being breeders, keepers of the home.

I know I was little impressed with my own parents sick relationship and XH and his family.

While the men feel they are "entitled" to excerise male privelge and use affairs as stress relief privy only to themselves. Old model that doesn't work. Ignorance.

Good for you bravely seeking out the truth, facing the truths. I hope you both will be able to telephone conference Dr. Harley-- especially with violence like that, takes very special handling.

There has been great deal of hurt done to you, and you need special care. It will take a long time to recover from, hope you will feel comfortable in bringing your hurt here to heal, as with severe problems you don't want to put your self at risk or harms way.

Poor models scripts play on until, we ask what is our vision and legacy we want.

It's a choice, and seems there is a tremendous amount of bitterness, resentment from your husband towards his dad that needs to dealt with. Your the target unfortunately.

Hope your H will get himself right with GOD... as spouses we can't fix what happened at the craddle.

Our family dyanamics were going crazy, I was going to hire a PI on the day I went to the appointment my dad ended up in hospital, went into a coma, and died 8 days later.

We were in counceling with Dr. Harley but my XH denied, lied about so much, things went down hill from there. All his lies and hypocrisies got exposed and he had an secret agenda underneath it all.

After we are our tradegy, my XH denied his wrong doings and was to contact Dr. Harley but refused to do so. He went really crazy plunging deeper into alchol, drugs, women. I did hire a PI and caught in right in front of the woman house, returning from a ski trip for the two of them as he denied to our children and everyone he wasn't having an affair.

I would highly recommend a PI- if it means harm, risk to your self.


I think my XH was a run away train wreck to begin with more of an extreme case than the norm adulterous spouse.

However, many marriages turn around from anarchy back to civility here, especially if God is placed in at the center of the marriage. Only God can heal those deep breaks and alot of support to pull a couple out.

Balloons, bouquets of Hugs

Sky Diver:

Dr. Harley did counsel us personally. He told me that he takes cases where there is severe physical abuse. I spoke with him several times before we got the program material in mid-February, and my H talked with him a few times and then once since we got the program material. However, I have been burning up the e-mail on the private forum -- 50 e-mails since mid-February!

Dr. Harley is telling me that my H is making a remarkable turnaround. My H has told me that he was blaming me for everything, but the wake up call started with the broken arm.

I have had my lessons to learn as well. He has a right to do what he pleases even if he did make a vow to me. I have had to accept that fact. I cannot convince, bully, parent, or threaten. It's up to him to change his behavior, just like it is up to me to change mine.

For your amusement, I have a funny story to tell from over the weekend. We were at my in-laws, and my mother in law (she learned of the broken arm four months after the fact, and the affair the day after I found out) told me, "When I found out what happened I was really upset with you...

I chuckled and said, "And I was really upset with Sophia..."

Then she said, "No, no,..."

And I replied, "Until I realized that Tom's behavior is Tom's responsibility."

She didn't like that answer AT ALL. We had discussed before the trip how she always makes jabs at me, and Tom had suggested I say, "Tom's behavior is his responsibility, and my behavior is mine." Anyway, that's what happened, and it reveals a lot of why Tom felt he could blame me for his actions. His mother is of the same mind even today.

The book "Not Just Friends" highlights a painfully self-evident truth. "It takes two to make a marriage and one to make a divorce."

It sounds to me like you make the right choice in getting out. I never did hire a PI. The most obvious thing to have done was to call the woman's husband, which I didn't do the first time I called Harley's radio show two weeks after the first kiss but which I did do 8 months and one broken arm later after calling the show again.

We haven't done well in the program at all. We got to the lesson on affection and spent three months spinning our wheels. Now we are on the lesson on conversation, and it seems the right way to begin. After all, that's how we fell in love in the first place, -- and sadly, that's how Tom fell in love with Sophia.

Cherished

<small>[ July 10, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Cherished,

Wonderful to hear from you and awesome news that the two of you have sought counceling with Dr. Harley. Awesome your hubby is tuning in and love is re-awakening.

Thanks for sharing and right on that ownership of responsibilty belongs to the person. We all have our own laundry piles.

When I held my XH accountable for his violence years ago and he entered a forensic men's treatment center for men who batter their wives. I left the marriage with our children by police escort to go to a shelter. At that time, XH withheld all the family monies, I had no vechile, put the children I in a isolating situation. It's was awful to awaken in terror of my XH in some tirade attacking our children if they were crying in the middle of the night. Were talking serious problems in his head.


I gave him an option either he goes volunarily or court ordered. Dealing with someone on heavy alchol, drugs which I didn't know all he was doing produces a whole other dimension. Since, a person isn't in full possesion of his faculties.

Taking personal responibilty for his own behavior wasn't is something he chose not to do. All of us make mistakes, non are perfect, but not too learn from ones mistakes, or continously repeat them like a broken record is sad, wearing on my nerves.

The issue became for me what right does that person have imposing their bad choices, forcing another to live with their negative consequences.

What I have learned from living with EX as I have always tried to seek intervention to problem solve. It didn't matter if psychologist, pastors, AA/ sponsers, doctors, judges spoke to him with respect etc, if just saw them as weak men, blew them off and knew do what ever he wanted anyways.

He would turn to his wacked sisters, and brothers who were doing much of the same thing in their relationships saw them as the Authority for his conduct. If big sister said he should be sleeping around that was all the approval he needed. She was doing similar.

There are some people who are simply not teachable or coachable-they simply are plain obstinate, CHOOSE not to learn but repeat their offenses. Just too difficult and unreasonable. Special case.

The shifting of responsibilty is the biggest part.

The communication part is so important-I am delighted to hear it's all starting to back on line.

I am happy for you for all the progress that's being made, and glad that your able to unload the hurt here, your healing!!!


Hugs,

Sky Diver:

I took a similar approach -- running around to experts, including Dr. Harley.

In the end, what I did just plain didn't matter. What mattered was the choice my H made.

It is sobering to realize -- but then, the credit now goes to him for making a turnaround.

I have concluded that Harley doesn't quite advertise his program correctly. What he really does is end bad marriages. If both cooperate and are motivated, they can create a great marriage. If only one is motivated, then the marriage will end with the motivated spouse recognizing what marriage is really about and that they didn't have a marriage. Anyway, that's my take on it...
Cherished

<small>[ July 10, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Skydiver,
Just wanted you to know I have read your post and want to think a while before I respond. I'm going down to the pond for a while to fish and then stopping in to check on my grandson. It seems he is having some difficulty that I have only just found out about. This is my oldest sons, son. He is only a few months old.

Thanks so much for your parayers and your well thought out response. I do appreciate your kindness, depth of feeling, and your time to help your fellow human beings in their times of need.

I wish some of what you have could rub off on my stbxw. As this lack of depth of communication is part of why we are where we are at this point in time.

Bless you !

David A

<small>[ July 10, 2004, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>

Cherished,

Well said--

Choices, turnarounds, turncoats.

Dr. Harley program definately, at least puts the persons in their right and proper bi polar perspective spheres.

Not to mention takes" adultery" issuses seriously in society that makes it all look "Ok".

Take care,

Hi David A,

Thank you for your very kind words. I am only too happy to share, help, as we are all in this boat together.

You just take all the time you need to process and enjoy the fishin. One of God's favorite way's to get our attention, and commune with him.

Our part in Fish Evangelism: is all we have to do is catch em and let Jesus clean them.

So sorry to hear about your grandson having difficulty, hope things are not to serious and will pray for him.

As for communication, you'll remember communion was perfect between God, Adam, Eve before the fall.

I guess we are all Adam's poor children until Jesus's touches us and cleans us.

Smiles,

Yes a connection.

My xh was the product of a very twisted homelife. It was all covered up until about seven years ago..

His father was a Baptist deacon and his mom both taught sunday school. When I first started dating Jethro, I went to SS at church of fil and mil. Sat in on their class. A few months later they had announced to us they had left the church they had raved about and were at another smaller church yet. Mom casually mentions in kitchen about how one woman had "grown attached" to her H and that they just felt "uncomfortable". That was my first hint but I knew nothing of it.

Three mos. before Jethro moves out permanently from our family home, we are awakened by a 10 pm call at front gate of subdivision guard who says his mom is at door and needs to visit us. We let her enter and she comes in crying and screaming. Our baby is asleep upstairs and meanwhile, I have been openly fighting the own affair demons in our marriage...his parents know about it btw.

Seems fil has had ongoing affair with a client from the family company for over 2 years now and has hit the fan. They were in counseling (never mentioned it to either of us as they would put on fake smiles and be all about family in front of us always)and when it was fil's turn w/counselor in private, her cell rings while she's waiting. On other end, woman calls her a b#tch and cusses her out. She then hangs up and calls the mil back and announces she's the OW and that he is leaving her for OW. MIL storms into counselor's office and confronts fil with info at that second. FIL storms outta counselors office and announces dramatically to everybody that he's "flying home and ending it all"..

Thus for the entire night I am on phone with 911 operators and local fire and rescue units in their area (my medical experience) getting them to agree to do an intervention and kick in the door b/c he is unstable and suicidal. FIL had hopped a plane in ATL and flown back home to TN. XH jumps into car and drives all night to get back to TN. Meanwhile I do all of this while taking care of the MIL who is hysterical as well.

Cops kick in door and find fil with gun to head and him threatening to kill himself (about 13 hours later...he's being dramatic and trying to get outta being guilty for affair basically...pure narcissism and sociopath if you ask me).

Next week, back in GA, the reunited "couple" announce that FIL has "re-found God" and that he's rededicating his life publicly at the church and he's getting baptized again. I am nauseus because all he's doing is taking mild antidepressants and going to counselor. Once again, MIL was enabling this horrible behavior and allowing it.

Turns out, it was known it was his fifth or sixth affair.

I think some of this is learned and I have absolutely NO respect for my former IL's.

They created my xh to become the man he is now and it's their fault. But he had choices as well and he chose WRONG.

As for my family? They disapprove of xh and do not have anything to do with family of his at all. They have completely wiped them outta their existence. When it was apparent divorce was imminent, and that I was not going to make it easy for Jethro, Jethro's family abandoned me. Completely.

When I almost lost everything I own financially and one week had less than one dollar left to live on except a large money jar and what was left in my freezer for me and my child to eat, my xh's family was nowhere to be found and never NEVER ONCE offered help to us. My family ended up sending money and it was not alot, but it was enough for food and gas for me to provide for son eating and to get to and from work.

And the xIL's want to hug me when they see me at soccer events or school events. They want to wipe everything under the rug as well. They make me want to puke and are completely supportive of his new affair marriage to Family Values and were even condoning of their living together as apparent last year.

Perception depends on acceptable behaviors. That varies from family to family but imho, those doing bad things will imho accept bad behaviors themselves. AFter all, if you are an adulterer and a liar and confirmed cheater, will you bash your own child who is doing the same thing? Might make you look bad.