HI all...

Been here on the boards for a short time. My story, in short, goes like so...

I am the WS in a 6yr marriage that was in serious trouble from about day 10. Last 2-3 yrs have been awful on many levels. Serious financial issues caused 95% by H, mental health issues (H), child-rearing differences (my kids from 1st M), me being the anti-Martha (read- untidy), sexual assault, a car accident that left me permanently injured, you name it. We don't agree on anything. We share little in common interests. We both missed some important red flags on the other coming in.

As for my A, it started out the way most do: acquaintances to friends to way-too-close- friends. No PA, just EA. Trying hard on NC, but really a moot point as I am sure the D is what I want. Anyway, my A started after MC failed, after IC, after first talks of D. While I am aware that there is a certain amount of fog-brain involved, I am equally sure that this D would have come about no matter what. OK - that's the short version.

My question is for those of you out there who had no choice but to share the house during D proceedings, and perhaps for a short time after. How did you do it? Were you able to be civil, or did you just gut it out and avoid each other while you did your time in Purgatory? How did the kids fit into the equation? My problem is that in avoiding him, I also would be away from my kids, as they are teens who like to be near the TV and phones, available to run out at a moments notice. Also, if you were in this situation, at what point (if ever) did you agree to not answer to each other about your whereabouts and activities? I get grilled every time I enter or leave the house. Avoiding him when we are both in the house is impossible, as he hovers wherever I am, particularly if I am on the computer or phone. Funny because OM and I have never communicated in those ways. I am fortunate in that we have a fairly large home and I am able to have my own bedroom, which he can't seem to stop barging into. Time for a real lock?

I have no problem being civil , I think he can be civil. Obviously, we both have issues that we have every right to be angry and hurt over. But I am weary of the R talk, it has gotten us nowhere in over a year, with different methods tried and countless attempts to come together on our differences. I am all used up at this point. I'm not saying he's a total villain nor that I am innocent, before or after EA began. I just want to find a way that we can all be in the house together but apart, and not go completely BONKERS in the process.

Any helpful advice relevant to the questions asked will be much appreciated. Those of you carrying 2x4's are kindly and respectfully requested to leave them at the door for firewood. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ July 09, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Singing For Supper ]</small>

It is probably odd to see one's spouse reply to a post. I am not surprised to see this post and welcome any and all advice that can be given to my wife and myself. I can say that divorce is not what I or the kids want. I will abide by what happens and try to remain civil and supportive. However, I do not think that it is too much to ask where my spouse will be. I am usually home with the kids when she is out and it is only right for us to know. If you are doing nothing wrong, then why do you feel that you are being grilled? I am sorry that you feel that I am hovering but it is not intentional. My office is located in the basement and our computers are about 5 feet apart. This week I needed to repair my network which had crashed. It was very time intensive and required me to be in the basement a lot. I will apologize for "barging" into your room but that is where you always seem to be. Your door is not usually completely shut and I do try to knock first. I will do better to respect your privacy and I expect the same in return. It is not fair that you have your bedroom that is off-limits to me but that you can come and go into what used to be "our" bedroom whenever you want.

I would also like to hear from people who have been in this situation as to how the more mundane things were handled. Who becomes responsible for what and where do the lines get drawn? It is hard for me not to want to become separate. All the computers are connected to the internet through my business. All the cell phones are paid for by my business. There are four of us in the house. Myself, my wife, and two kids from her first marriage. I have taken them on as my own and love them dearly. The boundary lines become very blurry though. When it comes to finances and house chores, I have to be realistic and think that there are 3 of them and 1 of me. Is it fair for me pay for 1/2 of everything and do 1/2 of everything? It is easy for me to feel that I should only take care of myself and provide for my own needs, but that is not who I am or who I want to be.

It is kind of difficult to do anything with the kids because it usually means that my wife will not be there because she does not want to be around me. And lately, anything she wants to do, she wants to be by herself.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions that you may have for the both of us and our children. I have enough firewood, so feel free to use your 2x4's where needed.

Okay, well, we do some times get both spouses. It really makes it a lot easier to give well rounded advice because we see both sides of the story.

Sing, people who slog it out living in the same house have a hard time as it is, and when one person doesn’t want the divorce, it can be even harder. Have you actually filed yet? Have you stopped seeing OM? NC is not a moot point morally. And that’s a feather, not a 2 X 4.


Toad, Have you read up on this site? Have you read any of the books? And are you in Plan A?

Sing and Toad,
First of you owe each other common courtesies roommates give each other, as well as the information co-parents give each other. Tell each other where you’re going, and how late you’ll be. Keep cell phones on when possible. Toad, you should knock on her door.

After that, I think should negotiate on duties. Some people I know of changed a couple of rooms into a mini-apartment for the wife. They did have a huge house. Others divided up time in the kitchen, and each got one night alone with children.

One thing that concerns me, Sing, is your thoughts that you could be living in the house after divorce for a short time. If you mean 10 days, that may be. If you mean 10 weeks, it isn’t going to happen unless you two can agree to it. Nor would I recommend it.

My condolences to you both.

I think greengables listed some great suggestions!

As for Toad's financial questions - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myself, my wife, and two kids from her first marriage. I have taken them on as my own and love them dearly. The boundary lines become very blurry though. When it comes to finances and house chores, I have to be realistic and think that there are 3 of them and 1 of me. Is it fair for me pay for 1/2 of everything and do 1/2 of everything? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the child support agreement and/or custodial arrangement from Sing's first marriage? Did y'all have a prenup or any oral agreement before YOUR marriage about the kid's expenses? Keeping in mind the kids are innocent regarding your marital problems (even if their teen behavior might be irritating at times), I don't see anything wrong with them pitching in around the house like anybody else, regardless of whether you are married or divorced. Our kids held jobs, paid their own car insurance, bought their own clothes, etc. from their early teen years. So I personally don't think that's unreasonable. But each situation is unique, and yours is certainly very much so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My question is for those of you out there who had no choice but to share the house during D proceedings, and perhaps for a short time after. How did you do it? Were you able to be civil, or did you just gut it out and avoid each other while you did your time in Purgatory? How did the kids fit into the equation? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We lived together for 18 months -- before that about 6 months of me sleeping downstairs on the couch or he sleeping downstairs on the couch, and once in a great blue moon we would sleep together. The last 18 months were PURE HELL. I was going to school -- he would drain my car of gas, flatten the tires, ummm... how can I say this politely, but *play with himself (loudly*) in the bathroom that was connected to my bedroom (in hopes that I would be turned on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), punch holes through walls, wake the kids at 11 or 12 midnight and (loudly) tell them he loved them and "You love me too right?"...to name just a FEW things. After 18 months I finally succeeded in obtaining a removal order and restraining order. I lived in a prison. My bedroom doors were LOCKED at night and all during the day as when I was gone to school during the day he would erase all my assignments and actually toasted the computer once.

In MY opinion, anyone that can live together in harmony should be working on their marriage and not working towards divorce. Anyone like my ex....I should have move away with the kids the instant it started to go wrong.

To answer everyone's questions, H included...

Toad (H) - Please do not presume to speak for the kids and what they want. They want an end to the turmoil and uncertainty, that is sure. But as far as which way they want it to go, they have told me they see the D as most likely outcome and better in the long run because of your instability. They may tell you differently, and neither of us really knows for sure. And as for coming into my room - I have never once heard you knock. Please try to. And I moved all my stuff out of our (your) room this week so that I won't have to go in there at all. I did that because I didn't WANT to go in there, period. You say it is not much to ask where I've been and where I'm going, and it isn't, but the accusatory tone and the interrogation that follows is unnecessary. As long as I have my cell (always) you and kids can reach me. BTW, you did a nice job of making it seem as if you and the kids sit here in the house together doing fun family stuff while I'm off gallavanting around town. NOT.

GreenGables - Thanks for the feather <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> You are right on the NC, morally it is murky. However, my children and pretty much everyone else we know are aware of this friendship, I've never hidden it. I could see it if there was an issue of discovery or if a PA. But there isn't, and for me this M was over a long time ago, but it just took my head and heart a long time to agree. I see OM twice a week at church. That's it unless I run into him out in the world (we live fairly close together). We rarely call or e-mail, never have. Sounds like fog talk, I know. Maybe it is. As for us staying in the same house even after D - this is NOT what I want. If I could I would be out of here yesterday and this would not be an issue. However, due to the financial situation we are in because of H's serial unemployment and out of control spending, I cannot go anywhere until we can sell the house in February. There is a clause in our mortgage that prevents any sale until then, and Feb in Chicago is not a good time to sell a house, so it could be much longer than that. With my name on the mortgage, I cannot rent anywhere. See the problem? It sucks for all of us.

Avondale - I have sole custody of kids from 1st M, their Dad sees them regularly and I get regular child support. Toad and I have never split hairs over kids and the related finances, and he is truthful in saying that he took them on as his own. For that I will forever be grateful, and he knows that. One of our biggest mistakes was to not discuss finances and kids before marrying, so no, we did not have any prenups or other types of agreements in place. Toad and I both make a point of telling the kids that even though he and I disagree a lot on how they should be raised and disciplined, that this is NOT THEIR FAULT and the problem lies in our differing philosophies. We all do the chores, but usually done in rescue mode and not maintenance mode. Usually invite people over once in a while to make sure we really clean house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for your replies. Please keep the suggestions coming!

Elan

Wow - sounds pretty awful, and downright creepy. I don't blame you for getting the Order of Protection. Sounds like my first M in some ways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I sincerely hope you find yourself a wonderful new person to be with, when you are ready for it.

Regarding your last statement, that seems on the surface to be very logical. And indeed that was a large part of my ambivalence over the last year. We can laugh, talk superficially, and generally get along for periods of time. I can do that with my brother too, but I'm not gonna marry him. I can do that with my neighbor, but I'm not gonna marry her. I can also cohabitate peacefully with multiple critters, but I'm definitely not going there. Get the idea? There is much more to it than whether you can be civil. There is trust (we both failed) genuine caring (there but not when it should have been) responsibility (don't get me started) respect (gone)and a host of other things that I can't put into words.

Thanks for your reply. I wish you the best after such a horrible M.

My W is probably right about the kids what they say to her and what they say to me. I do know that these kids have been through at least 3 divorces between you and their father. As for the turmoil, lately it has been you causing that. I know and own the fact that I have created a lot of turmoil but I always wanted to be married to you and be a parent to the kids. The turmoil that your causing I believe is worse because one week you feel great and want to make the marriage work and then the following week you stop talking to me and want a divorce. I guess I could see that the kids believe the D would be better than the constant change of heart.

I know that my words and thoughts do not always match my actions. I am too am tired of always talking about the fixes and then never following through. I am just going to start doing the things that I know are right and good. I am going to try and follow through on what I say. I know that it is too little too late, but I have to do it anyway in order to look in the mirror.

Thank you to all that have taken the time and interest to respond to our thoughts and feelings.

Hey, Toad. You say you don't want a divorce. What do you want? Are you following MB principles?

Hi guys!

You are both TALKING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Even if it's just on this board. What a wonderful start.

Many have never had that chance, you know that.

If you two didn't still love each other you wouldn't be here because you would not care one bit.

Keep Talking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Getting Better,

Thanks for the encouragement. I feel the same way. We both know many people who are in much worse shape.

I LOVE my W and kids. W says that she still cares but is not sure that she still loves me. W also believes that she has made poor choices when it comes to men and marriage. She stated on another post that if she had the chance to do our marriage over again, that she would not.

We are also both stubborn in our own ways but it has become better. I am doing the best plan A that I can right now and will continue to work harder at it. The hardest part to this whoe situation is that W seems to dwell on my past misdeeds and W feels that I will never change. W also seems to be unwilling to make changes herself. Bad habits are very hard to change and we both have them.

I also feel that it will be difficult for us to remain friends or stay in contact after a D. I love my kids but they really aren't mine. I think it would be difficult for a step parent to remain involved with ex-wife's kids after a D. It would be very difficult after another man enters the picture. So for me, a D is like the end of relationships, period. I feel that there would be no use for me unless of course they needed their computer fixed.

Again thank you to all that have offered their advice and experience.

I have another small dilemma. Today is Sunday. My W has been attending another church since Easter. She feels that it has more to offer her not to mention the OM attends there also. She also attended a wake today and then went back for evening church. We have not seen her all day it is now 7pm. Anyway our daughter wants to do things today and I am uncomfortable at this point in giving permission. She is my step daughter and I feel that she should be asking her mom for permission to do the things that she wants to do ie pool and movies. Our daughter (13) has a nasty habbit of just making plans without asking permission. She feels that it is her life and that she can do what she wants. But that is a whole different story. I told that she needs to call her mother to get permission. She has tried to call mom to ask permission but mom is not answering cell phone. She also needs money to do these things and I don't have any at the time. My struggle is where does this fit in with Plan A? My W wants a divorce and wants me out of her life, but I feel used and confused when it comes to the kids. This question is probably moot now that she just got home, but this situation will happen again I am torn as to what I should do.

Singing For Supper: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow - sounds pretty awful, and downright creepy. I don't blame you for getting the Order of Protection. Sounds like my first M in some ways I sincerely hope you find yourself a wonderful new person to be with, when you are ready for it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm ready for a wonderful new person to be with, but I don't need a new person to be with. I don't think what I experienced was horrifying -- it taught me so many things and I am very grateful for the worst parts of it. It taught me so many ways of handling conflict the result has given me a wonderful career which I never would have had in the first place. It taught me boundaries and how to set healthy goals and taught me how to be self-sufficient financially and emotionally. All those are not bad things. The divorce in itself, although ongoing, is showing the kids what HEALTHY is and what kind of relationship they need in their own lives as they go out on their own. Their father hasn't done any of that work and as a result is again in a dysfunctional and destructive relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We can laugh, talk superficially, and generally get along for periods of time. I can do that with my brother too, but I'm not gonna marry him. I can do that with my neighbor, but I'm not gonna marry her. I can also cohabitate peacefully with multiple critters, but I'm definitely not going there. Get the idea? There is much more to it than whether you can be civil. There is trust (we both failed) genuine caring (there but not when it should have been) responsibility (don't get me started) respect (gone)and a host of other things that I can't put into words.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with all you said....but there's a point where you have to START...a BEGINNING. Sounds to me, by reading both your posts, is that you both "listen" to what the other says, but neither of you really "hear" what you need to hear from the other. There are a lot of hurt feelings and things done. It's all in the past. If you live your life looking at the rear-view mirror, you'll both end up driving in to that concrete pillar.

One thing I PROMISED myself and my kids is that I would do anything in my power to work on my marriage. That included marriage counselling. I did my part and he walked away. I will never look back and say, "Gee I wonder what if we did ___". I did it all, and it still didn't work...but at least I tried.

Respect is imperative in a marriage...but it is earned. It doesn't just happen, voila, and it's there. The very first instant you met each other you didn't respect eachother, you didn't know eachother, You had to build a relationship together, and you did. Where did it fall apart? Responsibility -- you each developed your own roles and discussed what would happen. Where did that fall apart? Where are the expectations and do you both know what you expect from eachother and is any of it negotiable or is it more a matter of control on one or the others part?

My marriage wasn't horrible...but the ending was hell. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I'd suggest 6 good months of counselling before you pack it in. BOTH OF YOU. Trust me, the money you spend on counselling will be far less than the money and time you spend in divorce court. You married eachother for a reason......what was that reason? What was that little something that you saw in eachother.....just begin with that ONE thing and go from there.

Elan,

We have been to counseling. We went together and separate. Our counselor was great and held back no punches and made us "own" our parts of the relationship. Our counselor said exactly what you said about the past. She said that we have to let go of the past and start with a clean slate. That is where my W seems to have a problem. She can't start with a clean slate. She looks back and "knows" that if she had to do it all over again that she would never have married me. I will admit that I say a lot but do not always follow through. I am working on just doing the right thing without talking about it. My actions need to be louder than my words.

On a different note, I feel bad because my W seems to get a bum rap from me and a lot of people. She has been divorced twice before. Most people feel that she should be grateful that someone "as wonderful" as me married her and took on two kids. A lot of people think that I am the best thing that could have happenned for her and the kids but then, they do not live with us. They don't know my bad habits or financial mistakes. I sometimes fall into that line of thinking and feel that I am not appreciated. This turmoil is very confusing and causing us both a lot of pain. Thank you again for your comments

Toad,

Sounds like you have been doing some thinking.... it's hard to recognize one's own faults. You can always wish and hope that the *other* person would do this or that, but at the end of theday it's all up to you and what you do with your life and your own actions that really make a difference. You can't make anyone else change, all you can do is change yourself.

It saddens me greatly to read posts from a husband and a wife who both seem to want to be married -- but it seems neither are connecting and making things work. A relationship is very hard work. I don't wish divorce on anyone. It's painful and has hurts that last a lifetime. Yes, we do carry on and can continue to lead productive lives after the divorce and be happy. My only regret is that he didn't try at least to make the changes that could have made our relationship wonderful. I too regret that it took all those years to realize that I deserved better. The financial struggles that I experienced in my marriage were stressful to say the least. I can't tell you how many hours of sleep I lost. I can't tell you how many *plans* I made and tried to express them to him so that we wouldn't sink. Now, years later with me out of the picture he finally *got* it. All those plans he's using to his benefit and his newest squeeze is benefitting from it. I understand the stress that your wife must be feeling with the financial part of it. I don't know how not to look back in that rear view mirror and start with a clean slate. I do know though that looking back at all the bad and driving forward is a sure recipe for disaster. I do know that the journey is painful. Two hurting people with all that history surely is going to take some very hard work to keep it together. Maybe you want to try and maybe you don't. At least an effort that is full heartily atempted is worth it.

I wish you both the best and pray that you both will work hard on restoring your marriage. I also pray that you both listen to what each other has to say and really understand the needs of your partner. I pray that the children of your union and those children you adopted don't suffer the consequences of your bickering. This isn't all about the two of you....it's about how your actions will affect those children for the rest of THEIR lives also. It's the ripple effect...what you both do now will forever effect those kids. May God watch over you all and give you the courage to do the work you both need to do.

Sing, I encourage you to stick it out in your marriage. Even if you don't feel like right now. Even if you've lost all hope. Pour ever effort into your marriage. It may take some time, often longer than we're willing to wait for, for but when those good feelings are newly created you'll be thankful and proud that you stuck with it. Confront all your issues head on and deal with them in a positive manner.

Toad, hang in there. Be patient. Be loving. Have faith. Pray often.

I know that I did not originally start this thread but I thought I would bring it up to date. My W and I are still in the same house and we have some circular discussions that lead no way. I expect to receive divorce papers sometime in the near future. W stated that her lawyer was going to file last week. She still has contact with OM and sees no problem with it. W says that her feelings about our marriage are the exact same as they were before she really got to know OM. W does believe that OM is a better match to her. I have asked W to not have contact with OM as long as we are married and living in the same house. I feel that it is the least she can do out of respect for me and the kids. W feels that I am unreasonable and since the kids would not know about any time that she may be with OM that it is OK. She has spent very little time with OM and only sees him at church twice a week. Nothing physical has happenned yet (EA only). I just think that it is not proper and that if their relationship is meant to be that it can start after we are divorced and not living together. If not for me, then for her kids.

On a more positive note, I started a new job last Thursday. I really love it so far and finally feel good about myself and job. I have had some pretty crappy jobs over the past few years and this feels right.