Hello. I am SO sorry to sound so desperate but that’s exactly what I am right now. My emotions keep going up and down and up and down and up and down and I feel like I’m going crazy. (I have my first appt with a psychologist tomorrow). I just don’t feel like I can take my husband’s waffling much more. I’m losing weight, sleep and I’m not eating very well. I am getting out and doing things but it’s a HUGE effort. I suspect that over time this will help lessen the pain but right now I just don’t see an end. This is going to be long. Please bear with me and give your honest input and advice. I don’t want to do anything stupid. If you want to skip some details, just go to where the ******* is.

I don’t think it’s necessary to go into my whole story but would like to give some relevant facts:
1) Married for 5 years, engaged for one ½ year before that, known each other for eight years total. One child (16) from my first marriage
2) EA/PA by him lasting about 4-6 wks one year ago in March. I found out after it ended. Believe there has been casual contact since then. We decided to give things one year.
3) Hop forward one year. He says things aren’t improving enough. Says he love me, but not quite sure how. He thinks we’re very different people and that we bring out the negative qualities in each other. Asks for a divorce. Since he openly stated that he’s not sure *what* he wants and so thinks divorce is the only fair answer, I am able to convince him to a separation. We’re currently living quite far apart, we’re very amicable. He’s coming to visit August 8-11th.
4) I actually left on June 15th 2004. Our separation agreement is verbal.

Last weekend asked if he was willing to work on our marriage while we’re separated (he originally wanted to wait the one year and if things seemed better then we would actually try to work things out. I know..doesn’t really make sense) and he said yes. But he said yes on the condition that I do not ask about dating and “private life” (we agreed to date others. After reading this site I now regret that). I’m drawing up our written separation agreement (not legal) and it’s something we both have to be comfortable with (think POJA though it’s not a term I even knew when we started this) and this question of dating has to be on there. Anyway..this is a quote, “Please do not ask about relationships or any thing that may be considered "private life" i guess is how to put it.. its only going to lead to me lying about it and the answer would always be the same.. I dont really think you will, but.. I would prefer not to be put on the spot during a future conversation.. thats all i ask” I replied that I kind of understood where he was coming from but that lying didn’t make sense to me at this point. I said that I was willing to negotiate this point because the purpose of the agreement is to make a successful negotiation, not for resentments to build up. I explained that I did not think that dating others was a good idea, but since I agreed to it before I left that I would not take it back. I said that I was comfortable not knowing the details of his dates, but that I would like to know if he goes out with someone more than once. I also said that once we could come to an agreement regarding the dating that we would sign the contract and not have any R talks for two weeks so we could have some downtime. This email to him was on July 17th.

Calls July 19th to say he found inexpensive tickets and if 8/4-811 were good dates. This surprised me because I hadn’t planned on seeing him until the end of August or even September. Anyway, tickets bought, trip planned. No mention of the issue regarding dating. July 19th, I send him a copy of the agreement so that he can add anything thinks needs to be added, bring up anything that needs to be negotiated. I explain in this email that we shouldn’t sign this agreement until we can reach an agreement on the dating issue because those points need to go into the agreement. July 21st, I send him the following email verbatim “Hi,would like to finish our discussion of dating (it being a taboo subject) and our contract. How would you feel about wrapping that up tonight?” Mails next day and explains he had to study for some flights for his job. Said he’ll call tonight (july 21st) before his martial arts class to talk about it. I reply that I understood he has had a very busy week and that if he’d like to finish the discussion through email that was fine with me. (I express myself much better in writing). Does not call and any emails he has sent have been in regards to just every day stuff. So now it’s today (july 23rd) and this morning he emailed me and without my prompting said, “I will answer that email today too…sorry its taking so long” Well now he’s gone out for the evening and if habit indicates anything, he won’t be logging on until tomorrow. I am REALLY trying to be patient here. I know a week doesn’t seem like long, but I wanted to get the separation agreement out of the way so we could have the time before he visits free of R talk. He said he agrees with everything in the contract, but acknowledges that we have to come to an agreement about dating.

*********
I would like to make the following phone call to him. I am going to follow pretty closely to what I say here because I have a tendency to go off on a tangent. I am considering this my formal plan A (though not in a regular infidelity sense. But I do think he’s in withdrawal and in a fog). I am desperate for advice though because I do not know if I’m being too impatient and I don’t want to ruin things just when I found this site and became so hopeful!

"XXXX, I would like to apologize for the pain that I have caused to bring us both to this point in our marriage. It was my job as your wife to fill the needs I filled while we were dating and I have come to understand that I have failed in that, and have also failed in finding out what other needs you might have. It drove you to have an affair and while there is no excusing that, I am learning about the part that I played in that decision. I also did not put forth a very good effort over the last year to improve our situation. I am so sorry for the anguish it must have caused you to tell me that you thought a divorce was the only answer. I understand that it will be some time before you can believe that I am making changes, but I hope that your heart will open enough to give me a chance.

I love you very much and have every confidence that we can save our marriage if we can both commit to the changes that will be needed. I have thought this through and I have newly committed myself to this marriage and the changes that I need to make. I have made the decision that I will not date other people during our separation. My rings remain on my finger and it’s simply this—I am your wife. I am resolved to achieve my goals.

I understand that your are not willing to commit yourself to me just yet. While I truly believe that we can save our marriage and have the kind of love we both envisioned when we married —I know that I have not yet given you any reason to WANT to commit to me. I hope that I can change that, but understand that it will take some time. I am so glad that you are willing to work on our problems but I do not think it will be possible to achieve any success until I’ve given you a reason to want the marriage to work. And so I offer you the following:

I want to save myself and I want to save our marriage. I am willing to make the changes that I need to make regardless of what the outcome of us might be. I propose that we disregard our separation agreement and cease any discussions regarding our marriage. I would still like to talk with you and I would still like to see you, but I feel that it might be in both of our interests to stop working on our problems. I hope that if your heart opens enough to see the real changes that I am making, that you will come to me because you WANT to-and we can then begin to recover from the past.”

Okay, that’s it. Please advise me…I’m not sure that I trust my judgement right now! Thanks!

I don't have much time - I'm sorry!!
I am on my way out the door, I can get back online later.
Meanwhile - PLEASE DON'T CALL HIM!!
This does not sound like a good idea at all.
You have a right to have your own boundaries.
He is walking all over you. He comes and goes as he pleases, and you are not allowed to ask him about his "dating" or his private life??Good grief! He is married! You say that you agreed to this dating others idea, and now regret that you agreed to it. Frankly, he was going to do it anyway.
Please try not to call tonight. Sleep on it. Things allways look a little different in the morning.
You can not make him work on the M if he doesn't want to. You can not make him talk about his "dating" or his private life if he doesn't want to. Putting that in your seperation agreement doesn't really matter either way - he will do whatever he wants.
He is putting off the discussion for some reason, and I know it is really hurting you! But you are planning to say, in essence, its ok to walk all over me, sleep around, ignore me, and I will sit here waiting with a smile on my face.
Is that really the realtionship you want? And if you teach him that its ok to treat you this way now, how will you ever get it to stop?
Hang in there! I can feel how much you are hurting. Try to go for a walk, or phone a friend, anything to get you through the night. But don't call him yet!!

Womanoffaith, smile..thank you for your post. Actually my husband called me before you posted and I did end up giving my "speech". I just could not take anymore talking about our marriage if he was not *into* it even one iota--it is just too painful.

I'm curious about some things and I'm hoping that when you check back in you can clarify for me.

If it was not for our dating agreement I would probably not have used a "Plan A"-probably would've just started to work on our marriage. I can attempt to fill EN's for him (from a distance) and not love-bust right now. I feel like this is something that I can do. What I cannot do is try to solve any of *our* problems (I can work on my own issues though) right now with so little feedback from him. I do not feel that he is in a state where he can fill my EN's and work on the problems we have together, so in my view, it is better to bite the bullet and not discuss our marriage and not LB. I had thought this was the purpose of Plan A..was I totally wrong and off base here?

For some clarity..we are not living together. I moved out of the house over a month ago and we're actually in different states (he's in Puerto Rico, I'm in Florida). You're right, I can't force him to work on the M but I do want to save our marriage. He's not willing to give up dating right now which is why I'm putting a "Plan A" into effect--until the "fog lifts" and he's no longer in withdrawal. I want him to be committed on working on our marriage and he can't do that as long as he's dating other people!

Please, I value your input and wondering how you think I got Plan A so wrong? I thought I was doing it the right way and now I'm soooo confuzzled!

He IS having an affair. And is what we call a CAKEMAN here.

I am a fan of plan A, but not in totally debasing yourself and letting somebody walk all over you.

He's coming? Good. Learn plan A and do 180. But NO calls. Get the 180 list. Works well...and yes, I use it and am dating.

As for his dating others...wrongo. That won't work. If he is to work on M, then no outside dating. Not at all.

He's living the double secret life my xh did during our brief separation when both ow came over to his bachelorpad condo complete with footpath to private pool...He did this while waffling back and forth with me. HE doesn't want you to know one bit b/c you'd be outta there if you really knew. When I surprised him there one day I saw what was really in his condo. Photos of him and ow and limo rides/photos. Underwear in a drawer.

I am telling you, if you want things to work, you've gotta get out of poor me mode and start doing things for yourself.

Men want somebody strong. They want a bit of a challenge. How can he chase you when he's too busy walking all over you?

Declare that the chase is back on. Don't call and don't be overly available to him. It's time to take back a bit of the power. You should always remember to think with your head and let the emotions keep in check. Learn the 180. Make him think "you" may be the one who's rethinking things.

Plan A works with some spouses well. But I think that for it to really work, you have to show independence and reliance on nobody but you and real personal change. That's why 180 is good. And for cheaters it works even better b/c they rethink things b/c it appears as if you've gotten a bit foggy yourself..but your brain is in check. My x came home and it was after several months. Then he relapsed and saw OW again and flew into rage and became abusive. That's why the divorce happened in a nutshell btw.

But it did work.

HE just couldn't become the man I needed in my life. He never was that man in the end.

Don't sell yourself short. Demand more. But do so in a gentle and loving way and totally take him off guard. You can pull it off.

Consistancy is important with the 180 as well. Remember that. Best wishes.

O'kay..now I'm more confused than ever!

the 180.nods..someone had bumped a post about that and I read it. Will be EXTREMELY difficult for me to do, but I can sure try. I was also pointed to the "stop your divorce" website which seems similiar. I have not decided if I will spring for the E-book or not but it's more a matter of money than not being sure I want it.

Dating others...I agree. But right now he's not sure he *wants* to work on the marriage. So I don't know. If I say that I will not see or talk to him until he stops dating others, isn't that immediately going to a plan B? I thought you were supposed to give plan A a chance. Maybe I'm am confused about what plan A is exactly.

As far as me dating others..I just don't want it right now--I think I'm too vulnerable and I'm simply not interested. I do not feel like I should date just because he is or just for the sake of dating. I dunno..maybe I will feel differently about that but it's how I feel right now.

Re: "Poor me". I will not deny that I've got a little bit of that going on. But I am doing things for myself....Taking my time getting a job I *like*, not just taking the first thing that comes along, starting yoga class this week, going to a therapist tomorrow, looking forward to finishing school (which I can't do until Spring semester, but it's my plan), getting my teeth fixed, looking for a gym, though I can't afford a membership yet. My household goods won't be here until next week (yikes, they took them on may 15th and I don't get them until july 28th!) but when they're here, I've got a great mountain bike and a nice set of golf-clubs. Lol..and a surfboard if I can make it to the west coast of Florida. I'm really not sure what else I can be doing right now. Understand that at the moment all of this takes a HUGE effort on my part. I have to make myself do it otherwise I'll be sitting in the house all day moping.

Maddy-
Ok, the 180 that Peachy is referring to actually comes from another good book - Divorce Busting. It is written by Michelle Weiner-Davis (may have the name off a little) It is a good book. You really should get it - I just bought it for a friend yesterday (her H told her he wants a D - says there is no other woman - but I suspect there is)
Get the book - it will help you. It was only $13.00 in paper back at Barnes and Noble.
Also, if you haven't all ready read Surviving An Affair - it is a must read.
After reading these books you will start to see that your H has not said anything new - he is repeating the same old script that others have said before him. So - for you - that means that the more knowledge you have now - the more you will know what to expect in the future.
Give us a few more details here - any kids? How long were you married?
I agree with Peachy here - your H had/is having an affair. It makes them turn into an alien crazy person. My biggest concern for you right now - what I felt when I read your post - is that you are at the stage where you will say or do anything to get him back. That is not plan A. You are willing to say "go ahead and do whatever you want, I am going to let you walk all over me because I love you, need you, and want you back."
Plan A actually says - show them that you are a loving person, that you understand what you may have done to contribute to the breakdown of your marriage, and you are making changes in that area.
You mention the 1 year waiting period, where he was trying to decide if he wanted to stay married. What were his complaints? What does he say was wrong in the marriage, that did not improve in that time?
You talked about a speration agreement - now I am really getting in over my head. I don't really know what is best with that - BUT - I do not think it matters what you put in there about dating other people, once or twice, or talking about it. He is going to do whatever he wants, regardless. To write it up would be pointless. IF you need to make some monetary stipulations, then a seperation agreement is in order for that. But talk about the relationship is futile at this point.
And your earlier post said that you wanted to call him to tell him that you would not talk about your relationship anymore. That is where I said don't call him.
Now, he called you anyway, and that is fine. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut. He called, the timing seemed right- you talked to him. OK.
You didn't say what his repsone was. How did it go?
I would suggest that you resist the temptation to bring up ANY talk about the relationship. If he starts it, ok, see where it goes. But don't you do it.
Why?? When it is clearly driving you crazy?? Because you don't want him to think "Ugh, everytime I call her that is all she wants to talk about. She used to be fun, and interesting, but now she is just a drag. I am not going to call again."
If calling you is painful - he will just stop doing it.
Here is the hard part - I am not saying that you should pretend all is glorious, all the time. Just be nice. Answer his questions. Tell him you are taking Yoga, surfing, etc. But don't cry, don't beg, don't tell him you love him and miss him. Keep a little mystery there.
You have all ready started a good 180 - without even knowing it! You are getting your teeth fixed, taking Yoga, getting in shape, etc. Good for you! If I were there, I would hug you!!
When he comes to visit - wear a pair of tight jeans, and your best top. Let him see what he is missing out on!
Above all else - do not date. It will be very tempting. You all ready said it yourself - you are so vulnerable. it is even worse than you can imagine. You want to do just about anything to take away the pain. But your marriage has a really good chance of being saved - right up until the day the judge signs the final papers. Keep yourself open to that.
Hang in there.
I will be out of town Saturday, but I will check on you Sunday.
Also - get to church Sunday morning!!

womanoffaith, here are some links regarding my situation. Did not want to type it all in main part of this post because I already had a long post going on.
First Post I made here. It's mostly truthful, but admittedly doesn't really get at the heart of anything. If you scroll down there are a few more details in my replies. **Note, re: his contact with the person he had a PA/EA with. I expressed that it seemed professional with no personal overtones. Not true..while I saw no indication of an ongoing affair, the expression of wanting to continue the affair, etc..emails to/from were written as you would write to a good friend. This is something I cannot abide by although I never expressed my displeasure of it before our separation.
2nd post This probably gives a little better of a description. There are some points that I would like to mention but I think they'll probably be discussed via my reply to your post.

I agree about the Busters thing. That is a post I saw..it had a list of some of those busters. Will probably stop at the book store today on my way home from counsellor's. Admittedly some of these things scream against my instincts--but I know that's something I need to be aware of. For my current actions, in the words of Dr. Phil, "How is that working for you?" Honestly, it's working some, but it's not very effective..so I agree that a 180 is probably in order.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My biggest concern for you right now - what I felt when I read your post - is that you are at the stage where you will say or do anything to get him back. That is not plan A. You are willing to say "go ahead and do whatever you want, I am going to let you walk all over me because I love you, need you, and want you back."
Plan A actually says - show them that you are a loving person, that you understand what you may have done to contribute to the breakdown of your marriage, and you are making changes in that area. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really sure how to answer this. If he told me he was ready to start working on our problems and that he *wanted* to work on them..but that he still wanted to date others in the meantime, this would not be acceptable to me. I'm not really willing to do ANYTHING for him and our marriage. I'm willing to do a lot, especially changing behavoir this is harmful to me/son, but not ANYTHING. However I do wonder about this area and wonder exactly how I am projecting myself in this way? I don't want my marriage to be based on a lie. I don't want to pretend or force myself to be something I am not just for the sake of my marriage. But I do think I somehow project this image of willing to do anything and everything, regardless of how it affects me. This is simply not true and if you've got some insight, I'd love to hear it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You mention the 1 year waiting period, where he was trying to decide if he wanted to stay married. What were his complaints? What does he say was wrong in the marriage, that did not improve in that time? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, there was one year after his affair where we were still living together, and we are allowing one year from the day I left before we divorce, if that's what happens. Some of this is hard because I don't know all the answers. He holds a lot of stuff in. I do not know if this is because he does not want to hurt me or because he cannot deal with my pain. This is what he has told me..I will try not to inject my own interpretations into it. 1)My son is ADHD. Our house has become very stressful because of some of his behavoirs (this is something I'm working on now). This is very true and something I've felt deeply as well. I did not realize it was such a problem pre-affair. Post-affair when I was made aware of the problem I a)did not step up to the plate and actively try to find a solution to this stress b)I seemed indifferent to the problem and my husband felt like I completely handed things over to him to handle. I was not indifferent, but I was stuck and did not know what to do. So I will agree that my actions (or lack thereof) indicated indifference. 2) My poor housekeeping habits. This is definitely not an invalid complaint. I do the bare minimum in regards to domestic support. My husband has expressed that he does NOT want Marth Stewart for a wife..does not want me to be a "housewife" but feels that if I am not working or going to school that I could be doing more then the bare minimum. On my part I will say that I think he's right in this area. There were times when I would've been ashamed to have any visitors in our house. My own shame indicates to me that this IS a problem. 3) I made no effort to find outside activities with or without my husband. I also have a DEEP need for approval. My husband felt burdened with the sole responsibility of my happiness and well being and felt that I did not do anything to ensure my own happiness. Okay, that is what he told me. I will say what I think now...I think I've had a mild depression going on for a lot of years now. I tried to see a counselor once for this and did not feel I got anywhere and I was reluctant to ever try again. I thought I could jar myself out of the depression. I felt that my husband should be limitlessly understanding and patient with the state I was in. I am trying very hard right now to be objective about things and not beat myself up. but I do take a lot of responsibility for the demise of our marriage. Would it be appropriate to say I had an A with my depression? I think it would be. Depression is bad..but it also offered its own rewards. I'm not sure I can really explain that well but I will say that there were some parts of me that didn't want to give up my depression.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You didn't say what his repsone was. How did it go? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did stay very close to what I said here in the post. In essence just told him that I wanted to save our marriage but felt that as long as he was dating others that he was not truly committed and that working on our marriage might lead to a lot of resentments and it would be better to hold off until he was committed to trying. I made it clear that I enjoyed our talks where our relationship was not the topic and hoped they would continue. I also said that I was really looking forward to his visit. O'kay..his response. He said that he really appreciated the apology (this surprised me..he is usually saying, 'no, it's not you, it's me..this is not your fault', etc.). He said that he was very disappointed and hurt that I did not make any real effort to change my own behavoir over the last year. He said that he can see I am making a true effort now but that 1)he's not sure if it's too late and if he'll be able to overcome resentment 2) he's not ready to trust it yet and believe that they will be permanent and 3) he's afraid that changes will be made just for him and our marriage and not for my own benefit (so see, I am projecting this somehow..but I'm not sure how). He's glad to see my effort but right now it's not enough for him to commit to making the marriage work. He said he's more *willing*, but not more committed. He said that he feels he needs to make his own changes as well, but that he's not ready to do that. He said that he also enjoys talking with me when I do not bring up our problems and that he also looks forward to the visit. He said it's very hard for him to say things that he thinks will hurt my feelings and that he feels horrible for saying that he's not committed to our marriage right now and that he's not sure he *wants* to work on things, but that is how he feels right now. He agreed that putting discussions of our marriage on the back burner is a good idea for the time-being.

I have to agree with you regarding not speaking of our relationship. I do not think he will bring it up on his own for quite some time. I agree with you that I think there is definitely an "ugh" factor when I bring it up. Especially because he believes we SHOULD be talking about it, but he doesn't want to and feels guilty about that. It is SO hard to not bring these things up and it will be especially hard when he comes to visit. There's a safety-valve, though. His parents live very close and would welcome him to stay at their place. If it is too much for me (not speaking of our problems) then I can ask him to stay at his parent's house.

*question.
I have filled out the EN, LB, History forms but have not told him about them yet and have not given my responses to him. And i have not yet asked him to fill them out.

I'm really confused as to when these should be introduced. On the one hand, I would like to know what his EN's are so I can attempt to fill those that I feel capable of during this holding period. I also want to avoid the LB's. But if I ask him to fill these out, then that's kind of like discussing and working on our marriage.

How can I at the very least avoid LB's if I do not know what his are?

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: maddyk ]</small>

I haven't read all this so I am going to jump in.

You say you have an ADHD son and this is causing some stress in your family. I have a reading list for you:
-Driven to Distraction by Edward Hallowell
-You Mean I'm Not Crazy, Stupid, or Lazy by Ramundo and Kelly
-Attention Deficit Disorder: a Different Perpective by Thomas Hartmann

I hope you realize this condition in neurochemical and tends to run in families. So, you or your h may also have it. Not a crisis thing to have - just makes life tougher and a little more unpredictable. And, based on your last post, it sounds like you have my housekeeping skills.

Go to your library, get Hallowell's book. If you see yourself in the behavior checklists, find a psychiatrist who can help you with medication.

Yeah, I should practice what I preach and find a new doctor myself. Housekeeping is the only thing I couldn't do in my marriage. It was x's #1 emotional need and I couldn't meet it so he used that as the excuse to have multiple emotional affairs.

Remember, you can't work on your husband, you can only work on yourself.

THIS IS NOT NOT NOT ALL ABOUT HIM OK?

YOU EXIST TOO.

Quit denying yourself a life. His decisions do not make or break your marriage. Yours do as well. Quit walking on eggshells. Quit.

He's put you into a corner just like my xh did. And it's EMOTIONAL ABUSE. You think you're the whole problem. He told me I was stupid, ugly, fat, and that nobody would want me and that I'd never find anybody like him...And each time he'd get caught in another D-day it would be projected back onto me. I finally "got with it" and realized it was him simply MANIPULATING ME TO GET WHAT HE WANTS...IE, me not complaining and him living and doing what he wants. In reality, my xh was completely wrong. I am attractive (won several Miss American pageants in college), intelligent (now prez of my state med society), and fat (wear a size four or six) and have date offers all the time. It's manipulation plain and simple.

And you are in NO position to begin dating. Not at all. That would be silly.

Plan A isn't about being a doormat. Also in plan A is the exposure of the affair as well. Showing loving strength and when the 180 is thrown in, you've got an unbeatable combo imho. Both work TOGETHER GOOD.

In fact when he comes, I'd look different. I would have my outside match my new changes inside. Have new hair, wear something out of your comfort zone a bit, have a random schedule. Not "be there" completely for him.

Search this site for the "cakeman" thread. Ya got one hon.

Now also...do you have kids? Do you? Sounds as if you do. Let us know. This is a sticky area when it comes to separations and divorce and a wayward outta the continental US husband ok?

When you have a pure cakeman around, they will drain you of energy and self worth. All their efforts are about them. You show your h that you're not going to date others and that you do not wish him to do so either. That you've had some "revelations" and that you're sick of the way you'd been living. Make him think it's YOU who are on the edge of wanting divorce. Make everything that was white black, and everything black white. That does NOT mean you dating though. Heck, if I were in your shoes I'd buy all these self exploration books and also Cosmo and other stuff like that and leave em on the coffee table and begin wearing the read string on my left wrist (the madonna and britney kabbalah thing) and make them believe I was on verge of changing every aspect of my life. While the 180 is for sure about change, it has to be sincere in the end. You have to want to become the best YOU you can be. A does that too. But 180 is about consistant actions going along with the emotional change.

It is natural to feel as though at first the 180 is counter to your feelings. It is. But what I learned was this...It freed me. I learned to become again the woman I was before I met my x. I am not needy, clingy, and can objectively in dating begin to take steps back to try to look at things carefully before moving ahead. And I have self esteem, I have "unexplicable joy" when I wake up instead of that dread I used to feel in the pit of my stomach. I do not allow somebody I am seeing to become the center of my thoughts. MY LIFE is far too important for that.

Also, my xh is one of those guys who isn't happy with ANYBODY. One woman can't make him happy. Why? HE IS N'T HAPPY WITH HIMSELF. In a perfect world, he'd be married to Nicole Kidman but only if she looks like the re-stepforidized girl at the end of the movie (he prefers blondes). He wants somebody who can squeeze into a size two or maybe zero but still wear a 36c. Wants somebody to spend all day cooking and cleaning and catering to his every whim but not eat any of the food herself. Somebody to go thru labor and delivery but not act like a mom or have the scars to prove it. Somebody who can gain the admiration of others thru intelligence but yeild completely to him and only speak to when spoken to. Not to ever voice your opinions or ideas unless he asks you to. And at same time, be a professional woman with goals and ideas and achievements. And let him go and do what he wants and memorize the Kama Sutra. This woman CANNOT exist unless she can learn how to clone herself.

Thus his affairs. Me: I was the homemaker, professional woman, intelligent, attractive, and almost drove myself nuts trying to be all of that. I became a homemaker after our child was born. But that wasn't enough...because, I wasn't after that independent enough (not working even though it was his idea)and not "all Gloria Steinham" anymore as I used to be.

Next came monkeyho, OW1: She was anorexic, blonde, and a pharma sales rep. She was codependent. She would yeild to him at every turn. Had no responsibilities; no children; just emotionally catered to him. But she was shallow and able to be walked on by him...Actually a good sales rep with good record, she had a few goals he enjoyed seeing her accomplish. But people didn't really admire her. She wasn't the homemaker type.

Then came Family Values. Met her while cheating on both myself and MOnkeyho. Much younger, former Maxxim model, and no education. Not a real blonde but he would find that out later as her hair color changes w/her whim. Also anorexic looking, she caters to his needs and fills the need of making him appear intelligent. Unlike the other two women, she has no real profession and no education past high school. She's ten years younger and is able to be controlled by him completely. Sadly, she won't be able to complete him either. And as she grows some more in her 20's, she'll see her friends and others around her and how they are finding happiness and fulfillment and all she is is trapped.

In the end, it was I who declared my independence although I did it sadly. I am in NO way or shape sad right now btw.

Why do we give either men or women this much power in our lives? When we do they cannot pursue us anymore. Just because you're married doesn't mean that you stop having some mystery or some romance. Sure, it's predictable most times, but real love is like a wave. Has peaks and troughs. When you are a doormat giving them everything they want and are "too there" for them...

SUDDENLY THEY WANT MORE. ALWAYS WANT MORE. That is a key to relationships. Never lose yourself. When you do, that's when the trouble begins ok?

Oh, forgot to add..and this goes with Cindy's ideas as well..

MY XH IS ADHD AS WELL. His mom took him off meds when he was 13 years old. She was a substitute teacher who had no formal degree but just thought with her "title of being a teacher" that she knew enough to take her son off meds. She said "the meds just didn't make him seem like Jethro anymore."

Sad huh?

Please don't think I'm dense because I am REALLY trying to get insight. I am getting very confused.

I must be projecting this doormat thing--I *must* be...but I don't see how I am so please show me, okay?

Is it because I have not expressed what my dissatisfaction with the marriage is? I haven't because no one has asked. I've been asked why we're separated and I gave the reasons. I would not chosen the separation route were it not for divorce or separation being the only two choices available to me. So I've only been saying why we actually separated.

Yes, I take a lot of blame for the distintegration of our marriage, but I do not accept all of it and I have not let him think that I accept all of it. I feel that there are things that he must change too. I want to work on our marriage, but in order for us to be together one year from now, I also have to see changes. And yes, I have specific things that I need to change in our relationship. But as you said, I cannot change him, I can only change me.

re:exposure of affair. Well, the affair that occurred a year ago..not really any point. She got divorced right when she got back home..he told his family about the A when it occurred and they know that he is dating now.

All of the changes that I have been making are good for ME. I can't help it if they're also good for our marriage..lol! I am not sure what else I can do to be more indepedent..I really don't! I'm trying to engage in activities where I will meet people, trying to engage in things that I've always wanted to try but never had the opportunity, etc etc.

re: ADHD. Yes..I am looking into getting him back on meds. His primary doctor doesn't deal with ADHD so I need to find a doc for that and then get a referral. Will also do some reading..I have been lax on this.
I probably do exhibit a lot of ADHD behavoir (current husband is not father of our son) and I will bring it up to psychologist though she can't prescribe meds. But I'll speak with her about it tofday.

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: maddyk ]</small>

1)You're separated. Unlikely that he alone will seek docs help for adhd.

2)You didn't blow the A, or the ONE HE'S HAVING NOW, sky high yet. You haven't. And part of it is that he's on an island. But good news..they have PI's in San Juan. Sure do. You can get his addy and have him followed.

He IS HAVING AN AFFAIR as he announced to his family he's DATING. What's wrong with this picture?

3)You haven't probably told him what you expect either. Plus you've been giving in to him for some time since separating ok? There has NOT been ample time to put the 180/A in place. You don't know what this man is doing when he's in PR do you? He may be having mulitple affairs. My x did. And I had myself tested for std's. If you plan to sleep with him, use protection ok?

4)I just don't see that you've shown him, really shown him you're different yet. And it's not something you "say", it's something you "do".

There is a pattern of appeasement that goes on with some BS. The WS expresses dissatisfaction and then the WS goes to great lengths thinking that "if I can change this or that, then WS will change". Wrong. Change comes from you. Change comes from them. If they are saying for THEM to change, YOU have to change then their dynamics are all screwed up. I too once bought into this farce.

It's all smoke and mirrors if they push that at you. If they can keep the wittle wifeypoo busy working on herself..ie losing weight, cooking and cleaning all the time, walking on eggshells, giving in to their every whim, being emotionally available and physically available for them all the time, then they've got the perfect setup don't they? They can keep you being controlled all the while seeing the OP and doing what they want. They haven't been forced to figure out what's going on.

Do you get it now? He is coming in town to "check up on you" and to casually see you as you "might" be considered as one of his dating partners now. How do you think the women he's dating treat him? Huh? Are they all that to him? No. Probably a challenge. Makes him chase them. We can learn alot from the OW if we want to.

Sometimes I even lurk on the site "TOW" to find out how they get their men away from their wives..Just a way to "combat" the enemy some more. website is : gloryb.com. Stuff will infuriate you, but will show you how they think.

And indeed some women think it's a challenge to lure a man away from his wife to "see" if she can catch him. But most likely these women he's dating either think he's finished with you and divorce imminent or that he's already divorced. That's what my xh did. Told people we were divorced in fact when we were still living together...as a couple in fact. Used that line to meet ow.

I am saying to change course. Quit feeling sorry and get proactive. Change things around and shake it up. Make it not as easy as he wants them to be but at same time be a woman he would want to be around. Be a challenge. Be mysterious but be somebody fun, friendly, attractive, and intelligent. Be in his very foggy mind "every man's perfect catch". Id' also mirror some of his ways. That speaks very clearly to WS. My former counselor told me to do that. Speak like the WS does. My buddy Orchid calls it "reverse fogese" talk. You appear and use foggy language back at them. There was a thread about a woman who's husband came home and wanted to date her and she did the 180 effectively. She would even place a suitcase in her trunk and "pretend to forget it was there". In it was a toothbrush, bikini or swimsuit, cute outfit, and maybe sunglasses or something like that. Something to suggest an affair of her own. Her H found it when he came home briefly and then she would "be absent" for his calls and not be around on some weekends. He saw his own actions mirrored in her and he didn't like it. Helped fog clear a bit faster. She never openly dated. She never lied. She just placed strategic "things" here and there and did things "strategicly".

Quoting my Prez whom I love and openly support, (actually his lookalike on Sat. Night Live a few years back said this and it was Will farrell.) "Strategery". You gotta work on your strategery. Can't fly blind in a snowstorm. Set your course. Do not waiver. Fly by the instruments. Don't look away. Doesn't matter if the sky turns black and thunder is around. Do what works.

What is happening now is nothing. And furthemore, it's not working at all.

I usually only like to use quotes in limited quantities but don't want to forget anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1)You're separated. Unlikely that he alone will seek docs help for adhd.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think something got confused. My husband does not have ADHD. My son has ADHD. Do I think he'll research it on his own to try and understand my son better as long as we're in the current state we're in? No, I don't think that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2)You didn't blow the A, or the ONE HE'S HAVING NOW, sky high yet. You haven't. And part of it is that he's on an island. But good news..they have PI's in San Juan. Sure do. You can get his addy and have him followed.

He IS HAVING AN AFFAIR as he announced to his family he's DATING. What's wrong with this picture?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm having a hard time with this and I'm not arguing against you or trying to defend anything. I just don't understand where you're coming from and I value the input so please talk me through, if you're willing. Blow his affair (dating) skyhigh to WHOM? I am adamantly unwilling to affect his career with this so I'm not really sure what to say.
What does it tell me? I don't know. I mean we were frank with our families about the separation and the fact that we would date other people (which I have decided against doing). Before I came to this site I thought dating would be a GREAT idea. I've changed my mind about that which is why I'm feeling that plan A is appropriate here. I thought the purpose was to try and end the affair, see to NC and THEN try to recover the marriage. I understand that maybe you think affecting his career is what I need to do if that's what it takes, but I'm not willing to do that. But for Plan A to be effective, it seems to me that the straying spouse has to be willing to end the affair. He is not willing to do that at this time..so..what? Go right into Plan B? I am not totally opposed to a Plan B type of thing, but it seems to me that if there was never a Plan A then Plan B isn't going to work very well either.

I feel kind of stuck and feel like neither Plan A nor Plan B is really appropriate here. I mean..we are on the brink of divorce. The separation is a last-ditch effort. He has stated that he's willing to work on our problems but that he's not committed to it, is not sure he WANTS to. So what do I do with that? Give up hope and say, 'your loss, later days'. ? I think this is where I'm becoming confused. I do not want our marriage at ALL costs, but I want to give it a chance. I can definitely see where a 180 would help here. So what do I do if he's not yet willing to give up that dating option? Plan B? 180? Plan A? I'm not necessarily trying to ask *you* what to do, but I'm trying not to make stupid mistakes and trying to find the right thing for our situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3)You haven't probably told him what you expect either. Plus you've been giving in to him for some time since separating ok? There has NOT been ample time to put the 180/A in place. You don't know what this man is doing when he's in PR do you? He may be having mulitple affairs. My x did. And I had myself tested for std's. If you plan to sleep with him, use protection ok?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have expressed my number one dissatisfaction our marriage but that's probably about it. Nope, you're right, no time to do the 180..lol..since I only really learned about it yesterday. That's why I'm getting confused. Did you realize that we've only been separated for about 6 weeks? Much of that time has been me telling him of my sorrow of how much I love him, etc etc etc...all the things I'm learning that I should not do. But I didn't know that before. "if only I could make him understand how much I love him, if only he could see the pain I'm in, if only I could find the one magic thing to say..". This has been my MO up until about last week. I was sending him nice cards and happy letters, etc. I did stop the letters and cards before I found this site. I've recently stopped the "I love you's" at the end of phone conversations and emails. Okay, maybe this isn't a HUGE 180 and like I said, only learned of the concept yesterday..but I know I've got more work to do with that.

[quote]4)I just don't see that you've shown him, really shown him you're different yet. And it's not something you "say", it's something you "do".[/quote}
I totally agree with that. I think it's going to take some time before that will happen.

Yes, prior separation there was a lot of appeasement going on. I have actually thought about this a lot because I do NOT want to change for him--that would make everythng a lie and that is NOT what I want. My whole life I have done things for other people..I don't mean little favors..I mean huge life-decisions. My father was extremely domineering and to this day nothing is good enough for him. It's good..but not good enough. It is VERY difficult to break away from that. I went to my first counselling session today and the reason I gave for wanting to see her was mild depression/assistance in coping with separation/and I had changes that I wanted to make in my life that I needed help with and I wanted to make sure of my motivations. I do want to make changes for the right reasons but I've been so off-balance for so long that I don't feel that I can judge my motivations for myself. I feel that the changes I'm making right now are solely for my benefit but I'm not positive.

I'm not sure you're correct about his motivations in visiting. Yes I think there will be some "checking up" going on, but I don't feel like that's the ONLY reason. No, of course his dates don't get this and this is my biggest beef with us dating other people..They get to do all the good things in order to get his attention...No one shows their bad side when they're dating! It is hard to refrain from telling him everything I'm doing to change things, but I've managed to avoid it so far. I'm not sure what else to do..I mean..on the one hand he *should* see the changes..I want him to see them. On the other hand, I don't want to be *proving* anything to him.

Yes, I am sure you are correct that he is saying he's separated. And probably not giving the impression that we have any chance of getting back together. I mean..he doesn't think we can work through this so he doesn't have any reason to be saying otherwise. Not sure that I can really do anything about that.

I feel that I'm starting to be proactive about my OWN happiness. But I do think the 180 strategy will be useful in my case and it's not something I've fully started doing or feeling. I am going to have to *force* the 180 actions at first. But my hope is that it will become more natural. Yes, I want him to chase *me*!!

You know, I want to get over the hold this man has on me. Yes, I want to save our marriage but I want it to be healthy. I fear going into my own "withdrawal" where I just don't care anymore. Right now I *do* still care which is why I want to do something NOW.

*editing in*
*editing in*
justpeachy, just read your post on Cakemen and wanted to comment in here.

I agree with you that my husband is the Cakeman right now. He's not sure he wants me, but he's not sure he wants to lose me either. I think that puts Cakeman in a nutshell.

I didn't make this clear in this particular post, but our separation is for one year. On June 15th of 2005, if we are both not positive and are not totally committed to making our marriage work, we'll be filing for divorce. There is not an indefinite period to our separation. I don't know if that sheds more light on things or not.

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: maddyk ]</small>

You are right about not sending any letters. Stop cold turkey. You cannot convince him through gifts or anything to come back. That's part of 180 btw.

It is a withdrawal btw. Yes, you learn to not phone, not call, not talk much, not give out information about yourself (keep him guessing), be unavailable sometimes, etc. But you also are going to need a marriage coach.

I recommend the Harleys here. You made a cardinal mistake when you both agreed to date others. And now he's announced he's dating other people. Exposing an affair would only show and give you power. And I'd find out by hiring a PI. No, it's not to destroy his job. You're not really reading plan A or B or you'd understand. You need to do A now. Not enough time passed yet for plan B. But I wouldn't be separated six months. That would be me though. Year is too long.

I would find out what's going on in PR. Hire a PI. He may even be living w/somebody for all you know.

He's got the ultimate front having ability to have secret island life ok?

You Plan A for a definite period of time...Say 3 months. And you immediately implement the 180 today...Now. Both now. And you give it time. You make him rethink his actions. Then if at end of 3 mos or if you reach the end of your rope sooner, then you switch to plan B. But you don't switch back and forth. It is something you don't do lightly.

Get the MB marriage coach. They're experts on sabotaging affairs and getting our spouses home. Also, find my friend Orchid on GQII. She's a champ and they're in permanent recovery but her x's OW was a real mess. She overcame some serious fogggg.

You have to also search inside and realize if you are happier after self discovery alone or with him. That is important. It's wierd, but after I finally separated and filed, I grew alot more and in the end are happier. The transition was rough, money is much tighter, but I am happier ok?

So....Really read up on A, B, Divorce Busting, and get Harley to do some Marriage Coaching for you. You've got work to do. And use this little down time before he comes back to also get a mini makeover, get that wow outfit, and find just the right overnight bag to stuff into your trunk so that he can "accidentally" find it.

Yea, the ones he's dating are in full chase mode. How can you chase when you've paid bills together, cleaned toilets, changed sheets, done laundry, cooked dinners, shared parenting responsibilities? Easy. You dont. That's what dating people do, not married ones. Thus, you've got to overcome this stuff. That means adding mystery. No calls, no I Love YOu's, no chasing. No asking about what he does.

Since he's long distance and cheating, I'
d ask Orchid on GQ II how to do 180 and Plan A long distance via phone and how to begin sabotaging his affair(s). I do believe you need to get "just the facts" and hire a PI for a friday and saturday. That would let you know what's really going on in Hot San Juan ok?

Thank you for your input, justpeachy. I really do want to do all the right things here and it helps.

Regarding exposure of Plan A/Plan B. Again, do not know who I would expose *to*. An exposure in his workplace would definitely ruin his career (his WHOLE career). I understand that it's a risk *he* took and that I am protecting him from the consequences of that. But honestly, I'm still not willing to facilitate that. I do want to save my marriage but if that's one of the steps that MUST be taken then it's best I just quit right here and now and accept things because I just won't have any part of it. If our families and friends did not already know about this I would have no problem exposing to *them*, but not his workplace. Maybe I'm still reading what you're saying wrong. Maybe you're saying just exposure to *myself*?

Re: dating. Yes..a huge mistake (just a note..it is IMPOSSIBLE, absolutely unequivocably IMPOSSIBLE for him to live with anyone else right now). But I think our first huge mistake was deciding to actually live apart--if I only knew then what I know now. But this is not something that can be taken back..living apart for the time being. It can't be taken back until he leaves Puerto Rico, which is 1-1.5 years. Even if I had the money to go back, I can't go back to the place he's currently in, and if I lived somewhere else he would not be able to live with me. Also, changes that I need to make for MYSELF simply can't be done there. I'm not trying to make excuses..that's just the facts, the biggest one being that even if I go to Puerto Rico, we would not be living together. There may come a point where it would be possible for me to go back, but it would be extremely difficult. In addition to that I need to think of my son here too. He's been in 3 schools in the last 3 years. He's starting is 4th this year. If I move back, he'll be changing schools again and then we'd be moving from Puerto Rico again in 1-1.5 years and he'd have to change schools AGAIN.

Really, I actually would like to do the telephone thing with the Harley's because I've put myself in a very tough position and I'm not sure how to extricate myself. I do not have the money for it at the moment but if I absolutely felt I had to, I could probably get it. But what about timing? Do I talk to them first, by myself? Do I wait for my husband to come visit so we can both talk to them? Do I wait for the 1st visit or the next one? I could probably get the money for one time but after that I would not be able to for awhile. I know the coaching is something a little different but I only skimmed that info so I'll need to go back and read that.

Re: During and after self-discovery will I be happier by myself? You know I just might be and that's a little scary. This is how I feel right at this exact moment. 1) Counseling w/Harley's and PI would cost a lot of money, more than we really have right now. 2) I ask myself honestly, what would you have to do without in order to make that money available? I gotta tell you that my head and heart wants to save my marriage, but I'm not 100% sold on having to do without some of those things. It would mean going without IC for now, it would mean not going to yoga class (I know I could still do yoga, but a class gets me out of the house and meeting people), it would mean not making my apartment a place I WANT to be, it would mean not saving for me to finish school, it would mean forgoing a trip to see my parents at some point this year, it would mean not getting the dental work done that I've wanted to get done for so long. I do not want to sound uncommitted but these are things that I feel like I NEED right now. These are the things that will help me move on with my life, with or without my husband. I just can't give them up right now.

I bought Surving an Affair today. Wanted to buy Divorce Busting but they didn't have it as a title so I presume it's just available via internet?

I will go over to GII and ask what you suggested. Thank you peachy for being patient with me.

I was not meaning blowing the lid off of things at his work, it was meant for you to know.

And if that's not a viable thing financially then let's assume that he is dating and since he did have an A, we will operate under this premise.

And it's not that expensive, coaching that is. And my buddy Orchid is an expert and could help in between affording sessions. But you need to budget for that. And no, it needs to be you at first talking to them so they can COACH YOU. later for the H. But ask them. They're the experts and authors and did the research.

As per my other thread, I believe it is best to know even if it hurts. Knowledge allows you to know how to react appropriately to the situation or to sit back and wait until the answer comes and then do it.

You know what to do and now it's time to do it. You can find the other book on divorcebusting.com. She has some interesting concepts there as well, but I think MB is best as it severs ties with the OP.

Can't offer much help as I am floored by events this evening.

Maddy-
Sorry I have been absent all weekend -was out of town (with my ex, by the way, my how things change in a year. But we are not dating - just took our son to a baseball game)

You ask for insight as to why others see you as a doormat. (for lack of a better word)
I re-read your posts to see where I got that impression from, and I guess it is the way you are still trying to take almost all the blame for your broken relationship.I know that you SAY you are not taking all the blame. But your words/actions SAY something else.
"XXXX, I would like to apologize for the pain that I have caused to bring us both to this point in our marriage. It was my job as your wife to fill the needs I filled while we were dating and I have come to understand that I have failed in that, and have also failed in finding out what other needs you might have. It drove you to have an affair and while there is no excusing that, I am learning about the part that I played in that decision. I also did not put forth a very good effort over the last year to improve our situation. I am so sorry for the anguish it must have caused you to tell me that you thought a divorce was the only answer. I understand that it will be some time before you can believe that I am making changes, but I hope that your heart will open enough to give me a chance.

also -
Much of that time has been me telling him of my sorrow of how much I love him, etc etc etc...all the things I'm learning that I should not do.

Certainly you can look back now, and see how you could have done things differently while you were married. We all can. But you don't have to take all the responsibility for it. I am afraid I don't have any great advice for you here - I think it is the way that you continue to apologize for everything. I am thinking that perhaps a better aproach would be to just say something like:
I realize that you expected me to do ____ and I did not do that very well. I have taken the following steps to insure that I will be able to do ______.
If you have spent the past 6 weeks expressing your sorrow, then you have come across as so sad you would be willing to do anything to take away the sadness.
I see that you have purchased Survivng An Affair -thats great. The other one - Divorce Busting -should be in any book store. Another book by the same author is "The Divorce remedy". Author is Michele Weiner Davis. I just bought it at Barnes and Noble the other day for a friend.

Reading through your post I had a thought, that Peachy also expressed. Your H needs to SEE the changes in you, not just HEAR about them. When he comes to visit, let him see you with a new hair style. New clothes. Get out and explore your neghborhood, so that when he gets there you will be able to say "there is a great restaurant here that I want to take you to" let him see that you have been getting out of the house, enjoying yourself. keep up with the Yoga, keep up the IC, these are all good. I don't think you need to spend money on a PI to prove that he is having an A - he is - he all ready admitted that he is seeing other people,and you are not allowed to ask him about it. Make your apartment into a place you enjoy. Make it look like a home. Don't let him show up there and see unpacked boxes - unpacked boxes will look like you are expecting to move back to PR any day now. Make it look like you are trying to make a nice life for yourself.
You and I will know that getting out of the house requires all the effort you have! But he doesn't need to know that.
I hope you are able to do the telephone thing with SH. It would be best to get a real experts opinion.
It sounds like you are doing the right stuff for your son. My oldest is ADHD as well. He is 16 now, and no longer on meds. His saving grace has been sports. He plays 3 sports so he is busy all year long. Every day he has practice of some sort. It has made a new man out of him. Sounds like your son is a little young for that right now, but I would certainly keep it in mind. It isn't just the physical activity that has helped, but also the discipline involved in being part of a team.

I guess I will end with this.
It sounds like you are doing all the right stuff. Pat yourself on the back.
Keep it all simple. If the subject of dating comes up, tell him you are not going to date. You are married, and committed to your M. If he talks about any other woman, tell him that it is too painful to hear that your H is seeing someone else, and could he please not talk about it with you. Then change the subject. Let him know that you are sad to know that your H is dating other women. But don't dwell on it, and cry, and complain. Tell him that you are hurting right now, and need to guard your heart.


You mentioned the fact that you filled out the emotional needs questionaire. In my opinion, you will not be able to show it to him yet. He is not committed to working on the relationship yet, so why would he want to know what your needs are. Soemday. But not now. Also, it does not sound like he is ready to fill it out yet for you to see what his needs are.
When he visits - just keep it simple. Recall the days when you were dating. What did you do for fun? Keep it like that.
Hang in there.

wof, thanks for your response! I recalled that you said you were out for the weekend!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you have spent the past 6 weeks expressing your sorrow, then you have come across as so sad you would be willing to do anything to take away the sadness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is exactly what I have been doing. And you know what? I HATE it. I want it to stop. Well...lol, actually..I have stopped, at least to him. Since I called I have not emailed him/im'd him (made myself invisible to him actually), telephoned him or sent him a letter. Okay..well I haven't actually tested what will happen when I *do* speak with him, but it's definitely a rut I want to get out of. When I spoke to his step-mom today, I was upbeat, let on how busy I am this week (she asked if my son and I wanted to go to Busch Gardens with them), etc. You know how they speak about the 180 and that it should feel real, not just faking a 180 to your partner. Well, that's what I want..for it to be real. I used to be quite independent and I lost that girl somewhere. I know how and why, but it's still hard to get her back. But that's what I want.

Re: apologizing. Hmm. That was something that I felt that I needed to do. For the last year, I blamed him for EVERYTHING..I blamed the ending of our marriage SOLEY on him and his affair. I thought it to myself, and I also outright told him. I never really looked at what I might have had to do with things. Reading through this site has made me see things differently. Affair was inexcusable and he should never allowed it to happen. But I was somehow not only not filling his needs, but was also lb'ing far before affair ever started. I continued to do so after I learned of the affair. I was right, PERIOD! But then again..he is a protector--he never told me how unhappy he was..never explained to me that I had stoppped giving him what he needed. He always said that "such and such" didn't bother him. I believed him. If he had just stopped trying to guard me from EVERYTHING and told me he was unhappy then perhaps we could've avoided all this pain. It goes around in circles and it's clear that we both made mistakes. But all I can do is acknowledge my part in that and apologize for it. I still felt that it was the right thing to do.

Yes, I ordered Divorce Busting the other day. I hope to get it this tomorrow or next day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Looking forward to it. Yesterday I even bought my first pair of low-rise jeans (and got a Gap sized-0, woohoo!) and got a very bad haircut (had to go to a different salon today to get it fixed..grin).

Yes, I agree that my husband needs to see the changes. I don't expect that to happen for awhile...probably a few months. I have been very careful not to "catalog" to him what I've been doing. What's kinda funny and uplifting is that he's coming next week for a visit--and I have plans for some of the time he's here (plans consisting of therapist, job interviews, etc).lol..small, I know..but there was a time I would've cancelled all that just to be with him.

nods..I had thought to send him the Basic Concepts and EN to him before he visits but decided against it. He is just not receptive to it right now and I certainly don't want to show him mine at the moment. Besides that, it would hurt for me to send him that knowing he's only doing it because he's "willing" to. I need for at least a small part of him to WANT to do it. Just wasn't sure if that was the right way of thinking.

Maddy-
You sound so much better today, I am glad.
Sounds like you are taking control of your life again. He is definately going to see a new woman when he gets here. Wish I could see the look on his face when he sees you with your new hair and those skimpy little jeans! Have you been tanning too? Could always go for the spray on Mystic tan.
And you are keeping your appointmnets, and job interviews. Good good good.
Look out world, here comes Maddy.
I read back through your old posts just now, and see that your son is 16 - just like my ADHD boy. I have often thought that not every man would be able to live with my son. My son (who I call Matty by the way- short for Matthew)is fun, and loving, and smart. He loves sports, does well in school, has a wonderful heart for Jesus. BUT he is also loud, and does not sit still well. He does not pick up after himself without being told to do so - numerous times. I hate to think that people miss seeing what a great young man he is becuase they can't get past his loudness, and his constant activity.

Anyway, it sounds like you will keep very busy this next week preparing for your visit. I hope that Divorce Busting book arrives soon. I know you will appreciate some of the stuff you read in there.
Its funny - I gave that same book to a friend last Friday, and she still has not started it.
She called me Thursday morning, crying. Her H announced the night before that he wanted a D. He was tired of all the fighting and just wanted out.
I strongly suspect he is having an A - but she does not suspect yet. She says he is never missing - yet in the next setnence she tells me of several times lately when he came home late, telling her he was at a "friends" house. I think she is jsut not ready to face the truth yet.
So I got that book for her. Told her to read it right away - that it would help her to start fighting for her marriage right now. But she keeps just hoping this is only temporary - theat he will walk right back in the door any minute and tell her he made a msitake. I pray that she starts reading the book son - she is doing all the wrong stuff right now - begging, crying, threatening suicide. They have 4 kids.
I suspect she will find out within the next week that he has a GF and then she will start to read the book.
I think that these books are so helpful - becuase it shows you that whta you are going through is not uncommon, and you can survive it, and even be better afterwards.
Keep me posted.
Feel free to send me an email if you want.
Beth

Maddy - how are you doing??