When and how should I ask for a full and honest accounting of her relationship with OM? I don't want the dirty details, but I do feel I need to know when was the last time they were physical, ILY's shared, how many times, if in our home that kind of stuff. I don't want to get blindsided with this later on and I don't want this kept between us. I feel at this time she will lie her butt off, but if there's any real chance for us I feel that I need it.

“””When and how should I ask for a full and honest accounting of her relationship with OM?”””

I’m always puzzled when someone brings up this question. Why do you want to know and will it influence your decisions?

“””I don't want the dirty details, but I do feel I need to know when was the last time they were physical, ILY's shared, how many times, if in our home that kind of stuff.”””

You don’t want the dirty details but you want the dirty details. It’s my humble opinion that you can either choose for forgive and move on or you can wallow in the aftermath.

“””I don't want to get blindsided with this later on”””

Get blindsided by what?

You've got me a little confused. You're in the divorced section. Are you getting divorced or are you trying to work on it?

If you're getting divorced, there is NO REASON you should WANT to know about that kind of stuff, unless you want some other reason to be pissed off at your W.

If you're working on it, then you need to sit down with her and a MC, all three of you talk through it. Less apt to lie and less damage to do when there is someone there to mediate your discussion.

BELIEVE ME, take my advice.

Harry ,
Your signature line says a divorce was started in January. Started by whom? Are you working on your marriage now? If so, what precipitated stopping the divorce? (that's a GOOD thing!)

For a relative newbie, Chastesin made some excellent points (as did LH ). If you're divorcing, it doesn't matter. If you're working on the marriage, ask these questions with a counselor present (or during the time frame you're under a counselor's guidance) to help you both work through the JUNK that comes with knowing. I've been there, done that. BELIEVE ME <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh, Harry:

You were having a bad night weren't you? My guess is that you did not go to the house to see WW or DD last night, so you sat at work or at your house and stewed about this. (sigh)

One thing you are going to just need to work on and accept is that you can not "get" "force" or "make" your WW give you a full and honest accounting of her relationship with OM. There are no tricks you can do and there are no magic words. If you do somehow succeed in "forcing" her to tell you a full accounting, and if she is honest with you and tells you every stinking detail A) She will most likely resent you the rest of her life for forcing her to do something she did not want to do B) You will most likely hear every gory detail about the A and then hold it against her and use it as a weapon to hurt her--like holding a sword above her head forever.

IS THAT THE WAY YOU WANT TO TREAT YOUR WIFE?
IS THAT THE MESSAGE YOU WANT TO SEND TO HER?
IS THAT THE WAY YOU WANT HER TO FEEL ABOUT YOU?
IS THAT THE WAY YOU WANT TO BEHAVE?

Do you see why some of my messages are so important, Harry, and why I keep saying them over and over again? If you want your wife to answer some of your questions, you have to show her with your actions that she is safe telling you the truth. You do THAT by letting her tell you something true that is painful to hear, and responding, "Thank you for being honest. It hurt me to hear that, but I appreciate hearing the truth and I would like to think about it before I say anything."

Also, RARELY, in my experience, to the BS and WS just sit down together in one day or one night and go over EVERYTHING and answer all the questions...for two reasons: it's too hard on the BS to hear all those things (and the BS will tend to be VERY hurt and upset) and it too hard on the WS to say all those things and realize how hurtful they behaved. See, Harry?? It hurts too much to get it all at once.

This is why I recommend my "One Question" rule. Oh, you could do two if that works better for ya, but put a limit on it. Furthermore, if you get to ask HER two questions and she is expected to be completely, transparently honest...she gets to ask YOU two questions and you need to be just as completely, transparently honest with her.

I would suggest to you, Harry, that you tell your WW that you are practicing being safe when she is honest with you, and that you would like to try it with something honest but not TOO big--like talk about a topic you know is a little sore spot but not nearly as sore as the A. Tell her that you are going to thank her and not blast her. Then let her tell you ONE HONEST THING and your job is to be completely safe for her. No matter what she tells you, at least thank her for being open and honest! Practice that a few times so that "Harry=safe to be honest" in her head. Right now, "Harry=scared to be honest"...so once again, you get YOUR actions in line with your words, and see if she doesn't start being more open to being honest.


CJ

CJ!

I did both, worked late and came home and sulked. Tori Amos has been moved to my banned list of music until I make more progress.

I don't intend to force the issue, I just want to know the best way to bring it up. While letting her know it's critical for me to start any type of recovery knowing what I'm trying to recover from.

Ok, so how does this fit into Harry=Fun? Seems to me that if we go out, have a good time then finish the evening with one of these question it will just nullify anything I did earlier. If we do this before the fun then we have a wedge.

All:

I'm not asking for the gory details. The basics would be last time she REALLY saw him, and the last time they were physical. She maintains that they were only physical one time last year. My gut tells me she's just trying to keep the lid on the rest.

The reason I need this is that if we DO reconcile I don't want this hitting me blind side after I reinvested. I need to know before I reinvest just what I'm getting myself into.

Additionally I post in here because I moved in here after I filed for divorce. Right now there is a chance we may reconcile. I keep posting in here cause the folks in here are familiar with my current situation.

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: HarryS ]</small>

I am divorced from my exWS(husband). We have discussed reconciliation at various times. I'm with you. I want some details. I have been blind sided already a few times. EX. e-mail comes through to my e-mail address. WS didn't use the computer. I open it. It's a photo of him, the OW and their baby at a family gathering. This was the same day he saw me and talked about reconciliation. I find out another time that the OW went with him and his kids to his brother's cabin, which used to be one of our favorite spots. I found this out when we were visiting his brother and sister-in-law at their cabin, during a reconciliation vacation. The SIL happened to mention that the baby and OW had been there. I want to know details because part of the affair that hurt almost as much as the sexual part, was all of the lying that went on. And I believed most of what he said. It was crazy making. I want the truth about what happened, when, to try and help me sort out what really went on and how I missed the signs. It affects me now because I'm finding it very hard to trust my own judgement in relationships. So, part of it is me trying to reclaim my sense of trust and good judgement.

Harry- Be careful what you wish for. One question leads to another leads to another and another.

My H made me tell him about the A's. Then, after I went through that extremely painful ordeal, so ashamed I couldn't be naked around him, he pressed for more details, more information. MORE MORE MORE!

What happened? I got defensive, started spouting off hurtful things to shut him up, to make myself feel better. He added on more questions, then turned my own words against me.

Conclusion? What started out as working on it, ended up in D court. Now he hates me for what I've done, what I've said, and I'm so hurt by his actions I don't want him back.

We did all of that WITHOUT counceling. BIG mistake. If you really are trying to reconcile, counceling is the first step. YOU HAVE TO GO.

Unfortunately, me and H went AFTER we were already too far gone. We should have started going right at the beginning. You can do that, and you should do it. I mean it.

Save your marriage, set up MC now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chastesin:
<strong> Harry- Be careful what you wish for. One question leads to another leads to another and another.

We did all of that WITHOUT counceling. BIG mistake. If you really are trying to reconcile, counceling is the first step. YOU HAVE TO GO.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I am well aware. There are things I just DON'T want to know and really for myself don't need to know. I think CJ made me see the light as far as creating a safe environment for her to be honest with me. One maybe two questions at a time with me saying nothing except for thanks for being honest with me. Then I take that, go into my cave and dwell on it for a bit. After that I'm not to throw it back in her face, but if I have another question related to it I ask that one at the next session. Stay away from interrogation practices and NO BLOW-UP's. Keep things respectful.

I know it will hurt. God I know it, but better now than when I think we're over it.

I've tried getting her to go to MC. She feels she can't stand missing any work. Our MC we had before doesn't have weekend or evening hours. We can start all over with a new MC, but I would want her to find one she likes. Reality would be that I do all the leg work because she feels I have more time on my hands (apparently my days have 30 hours in them) and in the end she wouldn't be comfortable with any of them.

I'm just warning you Harry. She's not going like being asked "questions" everytime you guys do something relaxing. THAT is the last thing you want to do.

Finding a good MC is hard. Finding one on your schedule is even harder, but if you really want your M to work, you will do the leg work, you will put forth the extra effort. I'm telling you it's not a good idea to start asking yourself.

You two are going to bury yourselves without realizing it. Going in your cave and mulling over everything said is only going to make it worse.

To answer your original question: "when and how..."

When would be when you can get in to see a councelor, How would be at MC. There is no other way around it without hurting her, she hurting you and you both hurting yourselves unintentionally.

Think before you jump Harry.

Harry ,
You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've tried getting her to go to MC. She feels she can't stand missing any work. Our MC we had before doesn't have weekend or evening hours </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suggest making an appointment with Steve or Jennifer Harley here at MB. They have more experience in infidelity than many other counselors. In addition, their hours are more varied and may suit the schedules of you and your wife. The three appointments I had with Steve were WAY more productive than almost a year of counseling with a local guy in my town.

It really is helpful having a third person there when talking about affair specifics. The counselor will prompt discussion, thereby keeping both parties from appearing to be "the bad guy" to each other. A good counselor will ask you how much detail you want to know, and then will make sure that the retelling is done honestly without going overboard or giving blame. BOTH people benefit from having a counselor there when this discussion occurs.

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

Well I am trying to engage a coach. I need W's buy in and I guess she's mulling it over. No reply to the last email I sent her on it.

And I'm trying to curb my impulses with her so she feels safe with me.

I don't plan to do it everytime, in fact I'm not sure I should do it at all during those 'fun' times. Not sure when to do it at all.

In fact, not even 100% sure I even want to start this reconciling business with such a 'seemingly' unwilling partner.

HarryS

as a FWW myself, I think I see your WW going throu the same thing I did. I wanted to tell my H about the A but didn't want to say anything about details or how, when & whys.
I wanted him to basically accept that I had ended A, I expected him to accept that I wanted him because I was here with him, that he should get over it and start being normal with me.

Totally unrealistic I now know.
But it took couselling for me to accept that and even begin to want to express the details to my H.

The Harleys liken it to me as the WW borrowing $10,000 from the bank and then wanting the bank to suddenly forget the debt and allow me to not pay it back.
It was NEVER going to happen.

I think for every BS there is a different level of detail wanted, Your WW will have to provide what ever you want and you quite rightly will have to ask until you get it. BUT it must be in a secure enough environment for your w to feel SAFE to do so. You sem to have that knowledge so pls remember it is so important.

My H left me, came back and even through all that did not ever call me one name, thought them perhaps but did not act it out or express it.
We slowly got safe enough with other to just begin talking when he was deployed again. So now I will have to wait in limbo for as long as it takes and probably start all over again with H and MC. But I know what I have to do now.

So it can help harryS, but it may take some time and I agree, GET some MC involved or it can all back fire on you and her.

I hope you both find each other again if thats what you want. My best wishes

<small>[ July 31, 2004, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: crazedlove ]</small>

I haven't called her any names through this whole thing, but my tone and stance betray my feelings and she picks up on it. I did punch the tv on D-Day (ouch) and did call the OM a disparging word a few days later, but for the most part have kept it to myself.

Some of my comments have had an angry undertones, but for the most part I've kept it in check. I know on many occassions she felt I was about to loose it and in many ways I think she was pushing for just that. Maybe I should have made a visit to the OM and made a lasting impression on him. I think my WW on some level expected that of me. When I didn't do it she got confused.