<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Oh HOL,<p>I wish I could, but I can't even get my H to understand. Most of the time, I don't even understand!! What your W says isn't making sense to me. There is no possible way that she "loved" every one of those men. She may have had feelings for them and they may have been her friends, but she was not "in love" with them. Maybe it's possible she's saying that to justify it, not only to you, but in her own mind as well. I made my rounds through the "friends" circle, but "love" never entered the picture then.<p>I don't relate to that statement because I didn't love the boys/guys I was with. In fact, when recalling my past, my first love (on and off for many years), the only one that I even might POSSIBLY declare that I may have been in love with besides my H ---- I never slept with! At first I may have used sex as a tool to boost along my hope for something more with the person I was with, but as time went by, I felt less and less valuable as a person and more and more valuable as a vehicle for pleasure. <p>Your W posted once here, does she still read? My H has nothing to do with MB. He prefers to look at ASKMEN.COM (I think even you may have referenced a link there before). Sometimes I feel like he's just given up and he's going to accept the fact that his life sucks becuase he married me. He thought he had a prize, but found out he was jipped.<p>I honestly don't know what made me the way I was. I still think it had something to do with the rape, but after hours of pondering, there were lots of other things that contributed, too. And nobody believes me, but I wish I had been different. I wish I had been able to give that gift to my H. And even if not pure, at least less experienced than him.<p>Is your wife sure of herself? I never was. Is your wife happy about the things she did in the past? I am not. Does she wish her life upon her daughter (if applicable)? I don't. I still feel like I don't measure up. Probably now more than ever because I feel so unworthy of my H's love.<p>Maybe Liar2 and I should hook up and see if we can help each other understand our mind sets at the time. Or is she okay with everything? If you answer yes, HOL, do you believe that's true or is there a possibility that's just what she's saying? I find myself quite often telling H lately that I'm fine or whatever, when I'm definitely NOT just to pacify a situation. <p>I feel so bad about myself sometimes that I hate to face another day. My kids keep me going and I thank God every day for them...

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

HOL - In answer to your direct question I would have to say it was indeed a combination. Yes, I felt a certain sense of power - I thought I had a special something that made guys desire me - in hindsight - I think, DUH!!! Every girl/woman has this special something. At first I thought I might be able to keep a guy if I used this special power and gave him what he wanted. But as time went by, it finally dawned on me that it was not working. Later, I just felt like I really had nothing more to offer except for that. I began to lose my true self - I rarely expressed any thoughts for fear they would be perceived as stupid. I always felt like I had nothing to say and no opinion on anything. It's no wonder I couldn't keep a guy. <p>I have on occasion ran into one of these guys and I don't have ill feelings towards them, nor do I have feelings of excitement towards them. I don't blame them - they're just guys. I have felt embarassed because I'm sure they don't think much good about me. <p>Pretty much these days, all I can think about is what a bad person I am, that I didn't deserve a loving husband, or our children. When H gets down on me, he doesn't realize that I use his words to be about 100 times worse on myself. I repeat them over and over, and I feel like I'm that same girl in high school that was never good enough - now I'm not even good enough for the man I married. It just makes me so sad, HOL, that I didn't live my life differently. I can't change it - but how I wish I could. He doesn't believe me, of course, but that's because he's a guy and thinks it sounds like a fantasy come true.<p>Maybe your W doesn't even really know the truth herself. I find that's true with me sometimes. I think I've altered my own perception of reality (maybe so I can live on with myself). And the details of those times just aren't there. I can't picture anybody else and sometimes I could almost believe it never happened. Too bad that's not true!!

Hi guys,
I guess I can&#8217;t seem to mind my own business. But I can&#8217;t help observing that you both appear so stuck in place. It&#8217;s been about a year for each of you posting here, and I certainly hope you keep on posting. I just wonder whether either of you can say something positive you&#8217;ve learned and incorporated from your experience here. Despite a lot of responses, you don&#8217;t appear to have developed many new ideas in the past year. The conversation isn&#8217;t really moving forward.<p>I know it&#8217;s awfully difficult to change. Our emotional selves always resist the conscious mind&#8217;s efforts. You need to shake up your thought processes. I know you&#8217;re in tough situations, but I&#8217;ll go as far as to say that each of you, rather than your spouses or anyone&#8217;s mistakes or fate, are your own worst problems. I wish some other poster would come along and concur, but I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m far out on a limb with that thought.<p>There&#8217;s a saying that if you don&#8217;t know where you are going then any road will do. At this point do you have any map or hint of a positive direction? <p>I found in myself that at times in my life I was &#8216;happy&#8217; being miserable. Is it possible that you each have a little of that in you? Focusing on the past, you have an excuse not to do hard work on yourselves.<p>I know I&#8217;ve said all this before. I don&#8217;t want to badger you. So if this post is intrusive just ignore it, and I&#8217;ll leave you alone.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Hol,
I&#8217;m suggesting in lost&#8217;s case that she stop hating herself. She should see her self-hatred as a cancer that she has to remove to save her own life. <p>I&#8217;m calling on her to be her own champion. Focus on what she&#8217;s done right and save herself, if only for her kids sake. Who knows, maybe her husband will come along for the ride.

Bear with me, guys, because it's a Kahlua night and I've been bottled up.<p>My whole outlook on life fluctuates so quickly from one minute to the next that half the time I don't even know what I'm feeling. Hatred for me, big dislike of him - or happy with the hope that something's changed overnight!<p>Roscoe, in reply to your question about whether I've learned anything positive in the last year - I think I've learned a lot. I've read a ton and I know that succumbing to my perceived feelings of worthlessness only add to the problem. I try to keep a level head and keep doing what I've been doing for the last 16 years only more-so (with the exception of the slip-up three years ago). I'm also trying to instill in our children self-worth and self-confidence because I know first hand what the lack of those traits can lead to. And convince H that I really do feel that way and why.<p>It just seems that I'm trying so hard to show my H that I am the same person he supposedly fell in love with and married - that I'm not somebody else just pretending to be that person. But, when he doesn't believe it, I get discouraged. And it's at these times, that I get down on myself. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I&#8217;ll go as far as to say that each of you, rather than your spouses or anyone&#8217;s mistakes or fate, are your own worst problems. <hr></blockquote><p>To some extent - I agree. I let his feelings towards me effect my feelings about myself. But it seems impossible NOT to. Thank God, I have a good job with a boss that holds me in high regard (a female, too, which is a good thing....) and our kids. They keep me in check. I work inside the home (approx. 30 hours a week) and I don't see many people. I really only have one friend. I've never really been able to stay close to a girlfriend much more than a few years. I communicate with my boss via email, so really, I have very little outside social contact. <p>Which is FINE with me, except that for the last year, the only one I really talk to - or NOT talk to - is H. It's important to me what he thinks of me. So between him and me, we do a pretty good job of trashing me.<p>H wonders why I need so much "stroking". This being defined as verbal expressions of his love and desire for me. That I never needed that with anybody else! I say, "yes, I guess I do expect more from you." Is it wrong to have the need to feel "loved" in addition to being "wanted?" I feel like I'm on the edge of a double bladed sword - if I let him make love to me just because he wants me, then I'm no better than I was before. But if I ask for more because I'm not the same person I was then, he assumes he "must not be doing what the other guys did" and wonders why he should have to go to the extra trouble.<p>We've taken the EN survey and he knows how I value communication. Through this process, when I look back, I realize that I wasn't meeting his SN as enthusiastically as I should've been, either. I want him to know how much I love him so I am making a conscious effort to meet his needs. I want him to be happy. Then sometimes, after - something gets said or NOT said that makes me feel used. I feel like I'm using sex as I way to keep a guy again. And this really messes with my head!! Can a wife be used by her H? Sometimes I think I need some therapy - but who has time??? With working so much and the kids are involved in a ton of stuff - who has time? Life is so short - it is literally flying by and I'm so tired of us wasting the rest of our lives worrying about the past when I know we could be happy!!!<p>I think back a lot just because I know that's what he's doing. And when I do examine my behavior, I see things that I didn't before. Maybe because I never looked! I am the way I am today because of the things that happened to me along the way. I take offense to things now that I participated in then. This makes my hypocritical in H's eyes. That I'm only sorry because I got caught in my lie. <p>Sometimes, I must admit, I am sorry he knows the truth. June 10 will be one year. We had become closer than ever following my EA. June 9 - his 40th birthday - he was happy that day! We were both so happy that day! I wish I could take away his pain and replace it with what he was feeling then! I tell myself it's better in the long run that he knows the truth - although I have a hard time seeing how. I think I did a lot better job of pretending it didn't happen than he is at dealing with the knowledge.<p>Nowadays, H has great interest in the exciting side of life and I want no part of it. He feels like he missed out on something he didn't even know existed! We flip through the channels on TV at night, and he runs the remote (probably typical). I can't tell you how many times we stop at "Wild on E" on the Entertainment Channel - you know the girls on spring break, or in Mexico or wherever they might be - or "Howard Stern." He wonders if I did things like what the girls on TV are doing. And when I tell him it wasn't really like that for me - he doesn't believe me. I literally have to get up and leave the room because I know what he's thinking as he's watching and it brings me to tears.<p>I feel like I had something taken away from me at a young age that warped my sense of who I am. I feel like I missed out on being a normal, fun-loving teenager. I feel like I missed out on experiencing my first sexual encounter with somebody that I loved (or at least thought I did). I never even went out on real "dates."<p>He feels like he missed out on doing a bunch of chicks - is angry at himself for not trying harder. He is angry that women can "get laid" any time they choose. It's not fair....<p>He wonders why women seem to always "HAVE TO HAVE" a man in their lives. My sister and his brother are both in the process of divorcing and in both cases - the W is leaving the H for another man. A little more to it in my sister's case - but no matter - why does a woman need a man to make her feel confident in herself? Do you guys know? I'm probably not the best person to ask...<p>Sorry for going on so, but it's been one of those days....

h

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Sorry hol, that post of mine was way too long. I don't know what I was thinking. The next time I need to go on an aimless ramble, I&#8217;ll take a walk in the woods.<p>My main point was that it is possible for you to look at yourself and think of something for your wife to do that would make you feel good. Likewise, she may have something that you could do to make her feel good. Try to turn that mutual back-rubbing into a habit, and replace all this negative energy with something positive.<p>Hol, my own experience tells me that you will not soon &#8216;get over&#8217; this gaping psychological wound. Your best bet is to try to manage it...move on to some new idea and try to feel good from day to day. <p>Anyway, I realize I'm not selling what you're in the market to buy right now, so I'll take my pompous self and stay in hiding unless directly addressed.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

I have been reading your posts and I am sorry for your pain but what I am going to say you probably will not like and I apologize for this.
From reading your posts I think it is clear that your wife will never tell you the truth when it comes to the numbers. She has constantly not told you the truth. The fact that she has now moved it up to at least 37 it is probably a safe bet to assume that it is double that. I know that she tricked you into marrying her by withholding the truth from you. In addition, the fact that she said that she has loved virtually every man she has slept with indicates to me that she has no conception of what love is.<p>I feel bad for you but you might as well realize you will never get the full truth from her when it comes to the amount of men she has slept with.
I know that there is no why you can feel special.
The fact that she was dishonest with you prior to the marriage because she knew you would never marry her says it all. She is extremely lucky she never picked up any STD's since I assume it was probably unprotected sex she had with these men.<p>The bottom bottom line is either you accept her past and know that you will never get the real amount of men she has been with or move on. I think it is interesting that she does not feel any misgivings sleeping with all of these men because she loved them but nevertheless would not want you daughter to follow in her footsteps.
I think it would be extremely difficult to be in your situation. Whatever you do I wish you healing because it is clear that you are in a lot of pain.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

here i am. yes, i read the posts but i don't reply. i don't feel as if i have the credibility to make any comments as i lied about my past and have now lost the trust of a person i still want to share the rest of my life with. i long for the time when we can love deeply because it is within both of us.<p>i have been working with a psycologist primerily about my early past, as a small child and i have a greater understanding of how i came to make the decisions i did as a young woman as well as how i treated my husband during the 10 + years of hell as he like to refer to it .<p>at this point the infomation falls on deaf ears as the hidious hurt i have inflicted upon my husband causes him not to trust the words, work or progress. i do not blame him for this. <p>IF it were possible to change the past i would. i wish i had had true confidence in myself to expose the vulnerable person i am instead of trying to pretend to be in control and all knowing. <p>i'm so confused and frightened and yet still hopeful. <p>hol will get the final number as soon as i am sure i am not suppressing any memories and that is another area i am working on with the psycologist. it's not an intentional stall.<p>i love hol. i hope i will have enough time to prove it to him.

It doesn't seem like two weeks ago already I last posted. I read almost every day, but absorb everything for a bit before replying.<p>Roscoe - you apologized for your rambling post, but when I read it, it hit home and really gave me hope. One question, though, what is AS as an emotional need? You said SF and AS are linked. I read the book, but can't put that acronym to its proper definition. <p>My H, too, thinks about dates he had in the past, and says he'd do things differently now. But as you so wisely realized, you probably still wouldn't be a "player." And neither would H - and I wouldn't wish him to be. I admired in him that fact that he valued it as he did.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Since we have to go on with life, there&#8217;s no solution except to open up to feeling better. <hr></blockquote><p>This about brought me to tears at the time I first read it. How long does it take for one to realize this truth? <p>Since I posted last, things got REALLY bad and then pretty good again. I could tell things were getting tense again - little comments here and there. Saturday, things went downhill quick. He said he didn't know anymore if he loved me - I am a hard person to love.... It looked again like there was no hope. Next day was H's birthday and things were better. We spent the day fishing with the kids and had a really nice time. What a roller coaster ride! Next day was one year since discovery. No big issues... hard to believe!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She&#8217;s afraid, just like you, because when you found out the truth you used it to hate her. So you don&#8217;t trust her but she doesn&#8217;t trust you either and you both have good reasons. <hr></blockquote><p>How DO you know these things? <p>Liar2 - I'm glad you took the time to post back. <p>I know what you mean about deaf ears. And it is scary and confusing. I am glad to hear you're still hopeful. Mine comes and goes. It's too easy for me to find all the reasons H has not to love me anymore. It's easy for me to accept that things will never be the same - he'll always have these ill feelings towards me. It's easy for me to tell myself this is what I deserve.<p>But I know I can't if I want to save my marriage. I have to be proactive and enthusiastic. I have to be hopeful - if not, then what???<p>You shouldn't feel like you don't have the right to post because of your dishonesty. People change - and your feelings now deserve to be heard. I think that posting here helps me. It might help you, too.... <p>I have a question for everybody in reference to HOL's question about whether he has the right to know the exact number. I got married when I was pretty young (20). I'm now 36 and H is 41. Hypothetically speaking, if we were to split up and start dating, at our ages, is this question going to come up? Is this a talk that always happens pre-marriage??? I don't really know. Any thoughts?<p>[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: lost ]</p>

answer to your hypothetical situation ... yes. after all of the hurt i have put my husband through if i could have altered it by at least having the confidence in myself to have brought up the issue before he did and to have addressed it either by exposing the details or at the very least by explaining my desire for past behaviors to be left at that and given him the ability to accept that or not i would indeed do it.