“””Oh no, being blasted again!”””

No Jeff, I’m not blasting you at all. I’m simply sharing your exact words and stating how they basically go against the principles that this site is based upon.

If a person is pro-choice they typically don’t go to an anti-abortion support group and spout about how great their abortion was. Yet you come to a site that is based upon and subscribes to a certain set of principles and brag about how great your affair was. I’m a little beside myself on that one, what did you expect us to say. Then, not only that, you have insulted and attacked some of us with high moral standards.

Jeff, I’m not here to stand and pass any type of judgment upon you and your choices. Your life, life style, and moral choices are exactly that, yours. However, when you post things that are totally polar to the principles and ideas of this site, do you expect us to idly sit by and not offer advise that is based upon the principles of this site, years of experts research, and knowledge provided freely by the Harley’s?

So Jeff, I’m not blasting you but simply asking that if you’d like post advice on this site then at least provide it based upon the basic concepts that are taught here. Divorce is a process that can affect people in many different ways and to condone affairs in response to an already stressful situation, to a person that is already in a vulnerable state, is not morally sickening it’s also plain disrespectful.

LostHusband:
First, let me say that I repect your opinion. I can tell by your profile that you have paid your dues. You've been through the fire and I'm sure you know what you are talking about. I was wrong to say that you were blasting me, I am probably too quick to go on the defensive. I did not expect everyone here to agree with the way I handled my situation. Yes, I had an affair. I had a sexual relationship with someone other than my wife before the judge banged his little gavel and said I was no longer married. That was all there was left of my marriage but you are correct, it was still a marriage and I had an affair. I'm not exactly proud of that fact but in the big picture I'm not ashamed of it either. I was probably too blunt in my desciption of it but I was honest. Then and now, honest is the only way I know how to be. I'm sure that relationship does go against the principles of this site. Is honesty not a principle here? I will never be able to express the appreciation I have for the people here that helped me make it through the worst experience of my life. I don't recall attacking or intentionally insulting anyone except for possibly some that attacked or insulted me. There are some very devout people here with extremely high moral standards. I know that I can not measure up in all aspects. I will put my standard of honesty up against anyones. You say I have attacked and insulted some people here with high moral standards and I'm sure you can provide examples to refresh my memeory. It may very well be that I owe some people an apology. I gave my opinion on the dating issue once, knowing it was contrary to what most of the good people here would agree with. I have seen the 1 year for every 4 years married scale here a number of times. With my 17 year marriage that would mean I should wait 4+ years before dating again, or figure it on the 22 years we were together and I'm up to 5 1/2. Maybe some people need that, I don't think I do. Life is too short to sit around and watch it pass by. The majority of this site seems to me to be geared toward reconcilliation. I thought the Divorcing/ Divorced forum was for those of us that did not have that as an option. When someone asks for advice, I don't see the problem with a different view point and example of what worked. Perhaps it was poorly expressed and positively not the right solution for everyone but it was what worked for me. No disrespect was intended for anyone asking advice. I swore to myself when the dating issue came up again I would stay out of it and I didn't. I will do my best to refrain from expressing my opinion the next time it comes up and leave the matter to those of you that have more experience.

((Jeff))

Please don’t think I’m singling you out, attacking you, or anything of the sort. I’m simply stating my honest opinion that is based in the principles of this site, standards of my life, and desire to help people to become positive and healthy.

For giggles I looked up some of your old postings, do you remember this one:

“””As far as dating before the DV is final, you're a grown man and you have to make your own decisions but adultery is adultery. My WW justifies this A by saying she didn't start "dating" OM until after moveout day (I have evidence that indicates otherwise) and since we are seperated and she has filed for divorce its OK. My view is like it or not we are still married and "dating" someone else now is adultery.”””

So what happened to that point of view, which by the way was a good one, as were many of your postings until recently. What’s changed? IMHO you have not healed and you are using this attitude and these other women to shield your fears. I’ve been raked over the coals, as you have, and I chose something else to hide my fears and hinder in my healthy recovery. So are you open to the possibility that you are not as healthy and ready for a relationship as you want everyone to believe you are?

On a side note, please don’t get you kids involved in your relationships yet. Haven’t they suffered enough loss? And when do they get time to heal, they obviously don’t get that chance with mom. Again one of your earlier posts reflected how devastated they were with their mom’s relationship yet you are willing to expose them to the same thing?


“””I don't recall attacking or intentionally insulting anyone except for possibly some that attacked or insulted me. There are some very devout people here with extremely high moral standards.””””

Remember this?

“””I was ready to tell her that maybe she should go get laid, then she might be able to loosen up enough to get the giant bug out of her a$$ but decided to ignore her instead.”””

Said to a member that has blessed this site for almost 3 years and who was and continues to make tremendous progress. She truly has been an inspiration to many new comers. After this post she chose to leave the site.

“””I know that I can not measure up in all aspects. I will put my standard of honesty up against anyones.”””

This is not a race or a competition, it’s life and some of us choose to simply help as much as we can.

“””I gave my opinion on the dating issue once, knowing it was contrary to what most of the good people here would agree with.”””

Actually you’ve given it on several different occasions. Amazingly you pulled a Bill Clinton (sorry for the political humor) and flip flopped on the issue.

“””I have seen the 1 year for every 4 years married scale here a number of times.”””

I don’t know that I agree with that or any other of these scales that I’ve seen but I can tell you that it takes time. Many from this site have rushed and ended up going through pain again and ended up hurting their kids again. Whether you need over four years or a year or 3 months, the one thing that I can honestly say is that you need more time than you are giving yourself. I also know for a fact that if you expose your kids your are definitely not giving them the time they need to recover.

“””When someone asks for advice, I don't see the problem with a different view point and example of what worked.”””

Neither do I. Especially one that is rooted in morality and backed up by years of research.

“””Perhaps it was poorly expressed and positively not the right solution for everyone but it was what worked for me.”””

Actually, I disagree because I don’t really believe it worked for you. Looking over the emotional ride that you’ve taken, coupled with your switch in attitude, I’d say that it simply repressed many feelings and emotions that will need to be dealt with before you can go on to have a positive health relationship in the future.

Brother, I challenge you to spend some serious time looking in the mirror rather than out the window.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

I gave my opinion on this dating issue long ago. It all boils down to semantics. I'm sure there are many here who are dating but fail to admit it or even recognize it. Some define dating as having sex. Some define dating as sharing time with someone of the opposite sex. Some define dating as talking to someone with whom they have an interest in and the person has an interest in them. But there is only one definition of adultery. We all know it. We know what is wrong. We know what is right. It really is simple when you think about it. If a woman's husband leaves her, she should not sleep with another man until she marries that other man. Period. Anything less is wrong. Now the law states that she cannot marry him until she is divorces. So...if they day they are divorced she goes out and marries him, who's law is she breaking? It may not be a wise decision, but marrying her original husband may not have been wise either. And on the other hand, their new marriage does not have to be condemned or cursed. She was not married. The dating thing just needs to be put into the right perspective.

It really is not difficult.

LostHusband:
The title of this thread sort of makes me feel like you a singling me out. I don't feel attacked, I know that you are offering some constructive criticism, and I know I could use it, and have it coming. Like I said before, I respect your opinion.
As for the first post you cite, I can't argue that one. My point of view hasn't changed all that much. I admitted that what I did was adultery. I can see more grey area now, or turd brown if you prefer. Sure, I'm open to the possibility that I may not be as healthy and open to a relationship as I want everyone to believe. Are you open to the possibility that I am? My shrink and a counselor I work with and knows me well both seem to think I am doing pretty good. Not "cured" by any means but progressing.
As for involving my kids in any of my relationships, nothing inappropriate has happened there and they will never be exposed to the kind of crap from me that their mother has done. My kids are my life and that situation is being handled very carefully.
I do recall the bug out of her a$$ comment, I don't recall who it was directed toward. I recall that she had elected to pick out pieces of posts, call names, and generally go for my throat. I recall that I was not the only one who may have had issues with her. Still that was out of line and I would like to offer her my apology. It would be a tragedy for this site to lose someone who can help others over the remark of one idiot and if you can contact her please pass along my sincere regret for my pettiness.
I'm not going to touch the Bill Clinton thing, I might make another stupid bug out the a$$ remark.
I have looked in the mirror and it isn't always a pretty sight. Sometimes its okay. I do know that other than the custody situation with my children, I am happier now than I can remember being in a long time, going back to before even meeting WxW. Possibly ever. My counselor/ coworker/ friend often reminds me that when God closes one door He opens another. I feel ready to look out that door and see whats going on.
Thanks for your hugs, thoughts and prayers.

Jeffery,

Man I was just going to let this thread slip into the depths but for some reason I felt compelled to post again….. Oh ya, it’s when you said

“””I have to whisper that part some people around here think its too soon and give me a little grief”””

Dude, that’s just like a little kid getting caught with hands in the cookie jar knowing you’re doing the wrong thang. I wanted to believe that you screen name didn’t hold true but I can see that my words are simply falling on “deaf” ears. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Buddy, pride and ego are the two demons that shall haunt you until you face them both and learn humility. It’s actually an awesome journey and I pray that someday you will join in.

Seacrest OUT…………..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DeafJeff wrote:
"I have seen the 1 year for every 4 years married scale here a number of times. With my 17 year marriage that would mean I should wait 4+ years before dating again, or figure it on the 22 years we were together and I'm up to 5 1/2. Maybe some people need that, I don't think I do. Life is too short to sit around and watch it pass by."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The premise behind "waiting" till you become involved or remarry after divorcing due to betrayal Jeff, is not to simply SIT AROUND as you put it.

That time is for you to get to know YOU as a single person. As a single person to make yourself happy all on your own. A single person that is independent and does not require having someone in their life to feel whole. A single person that has done some honest introspection of themselves regarding their former marriage and the part they played in it's demise. A single person who does not expect that they HAVE to be in a relationship in order to feel they are part of the human race. A single person that has done all they can to better themselves by relieving themselves of all the baggage of that former marriage before they bring someone else into their lives. A single person that has re-accessed their life, and now has goals and dreams as a SINGLE PERSON.

All of the above takes time, and is well worth the effort.

Jo

LostHusband: Geeez, you don't miss anything do you. OK, WMWB??? and I kinda connected here some time ago and he asked so I told him. I made some mistakes during the turmoil of my Dv process and never claimed or hope to be perfect. I'm not married anymore, I am seeing someone, I'm happy. As far as my pride and ego, maybe you don't know me as well as you think. Now don't look and I'll see if can just get one more cookie out of that jar..............

DTIA: No arguement here.
I would fit the category you mentioned as one those dating someone and didn't admit it here. Until after I ended that relationship. Was it wrong for me to date at that time? Sure. May be why I kept quiet about it. Can't turn back time. God will be my judge.
My Dv is final now, is dating someone wrong? Nope. Is it a wise decision? Time will tell. Would it be wise to wait a set amount of time and miss the oppourtunity for happiness? Don't think so. I would hate to look back 10 years from now and say I fell asleep at the switch on this one. You are right, it really isn't difficult.

I think only Jeff can be accountable for his choices. I do admire that he has made a choice, and stands accountable, unabashedly so, for that choice. Not that I necessary support or refute his choice...just can respect his being above board about it now.

There has been a lot of talk about when it is appropriate. When a marriage is technically over. When the BS should consider moving on, while they are often wallowing in a arduously long time period for the legal implications to catch up . There are various formulas to apply when it is "right."

It seems like an ironic conversation to be discussing the appropriateness of dating, when often, these marriages are broken because the original wayward spouse cheated, and launched a nuclear bomb on their loyal spouse, their children, the life they built together, etc.

I used to very deeply resent that my WH's actions, choices, and disrespect for our marriage and family forced me to enter a dating world that I did not want to enter. I did not want to consider the prosepct of dating. I did not want to consider what that would do to me, my children, etc. I wanted to be happily married to my H!!! FOREVER.

Sometimes it makes me mad that a BS who has fought a really hard fight to save a marriage their WS did not want to save, and then they face the excrutiatingly painful reality of their broken home, then they go through the normal healing processes of denial, pain, anger, acceptance, and bravely stand tall, stronger from what they have weathered, and move on, somehow clinging to the promise of what a happier, now very much wiser perspective, hard earned I might add, of life and love can hopefully bring them. This is hard, souldraining, gut wretching work.

And when a BS has done this, has worked to rebuild their lives, they are chastised when they have had the oh so lucky chance to meet someone else that sparks a fire in them, ingnites an interest, creates a companionship, or, gasp, meets a need for goodness sake.

I guess at this point, now that I know I am done with my M and simply waiting on the paperwork to catch up with where my heart is, when Mr. Right walks into my life, I will just apply a principle of patience and time. If it is right, time will tell. If I am rushing into something foolishly, hopefully by making myself wait, time will prevent hasty mistakes. Time will give me the opportunity to heal. To ponder the consequences of a new relationship. Time will allow me to test out my new tools. Time will uncover things about myself and the potential someone else, that I wish I would have known or paid attention to last time.

One thing I know separates me. I am not coming home to my husband every day, pasting on a smile, calling to tell him I love him, or missed him today while I was at work. I am not sleeping in the bed next to him, having sex with him, and going about appearances, while I conspire to lie and manipulate my spouse so I can have an affair. I am not playing house with my WH. He knows, and has acknowledged, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I have worked my [censored] off to save this marriage. And he knows I finally very hestitantly threw in the towel. And he knows he is walking away from something that he does not now, but maybe someday will, miss and not get back. And he knows I deserve someone who is capable of respecting and honoring all the gifts I can bring to a relationship. And he knows I am conceeding to his original wishes that I once fought so hard against, and have now evolved to a level where I am even almost looking forward to myself, with the D and the final closing of the chapter on this part of our lives. And he knows I have the right to love and happiness. And he KNOWS this will mean me moving on and establishing other relationships. He knows that his choices have meant that I am not his anymore. And I am not lying about it. Not hiding this fact. He knows. There is a BIG difference between someone like me, although not fully divorced yet, starting a relationship, living my life above board, and someone like him, who lied, betrayed, and destroyed our lives, when he knew at the time I had expectations and ideas about what those vows meant that obviously meant so little to him, and he knew I ASSUMED him to be my LOYAL, FAITHFUL husband.

Just my perspective on it. There is a lot to be said for waiting till the decree is signed, waiting till you find yourself and heal, and waiting till you are truly over your marriage, and ready to be out on your own (because you are comfortable with who you are in your own skin). I agree with all of that.

But, IMVHO, there is a big difference, at least for me, between my potential dating intentions, and the intentions that were undergone by my cheating spouse.

Interesting dialogue, none the less. Woudl appreciate differing views.

<small>[ August 17, 2004, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: SerendipiT ]</small>

SerendipiT

I'm new to the D/D board, so I'm not familiar with LH and DJ, sorry guys! Your post really struck something in me. You are eloquent and your story touches me. I have not had the guts to file yet, but that is where I am heading. It's been hard to even think about dating, I just know it will be a LONG time before I'm out there. My WH and I met at 17+18. I'm excited to make my own way in this world and see how I do. I am done with this lying and cheating cr*p. DONE done done!

What am I doing: Gee..thanks. Not sure I am worthy of any compliments. Just tryin to survive like all the rest of us...and making plenty of mistakes in the meantime.

I think you need to move on when you are ready to. You need to take the time and care to heal your soul. Only then will you be able to adequately give of yourself to someone else.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Resilient: I don't have much trouble being happy on my own, I am indepedant, and when by myself never get all that lonely. If I did have a problem with lonliness, a good dog would fix that. I don't feel the need for a dog right now. Shortly after my WxW moved out I came to realize that I had a role in the problems with our M. I readily admitted them to her and made sure she knew I was willing to make the changes I needed to make. She elected to continue her R with OM and procede with the Dv. I came to realize the M was over. Now it is legally over. I was not looking for a new R, but the oppourtunity presented itself. We are taking it very slow because I do have the baggage of being so recently single. This lady is not my WxW and I am not the same person I was 6 months ago. Starting fresh from square one.

SerendipiT:
THANK YOU! I agree with almost everything you said and wish I could be that articulate myself. I could reverse gender a few places in your post and your story would almost be mine. Sorry I can't offer you a differing view, I think mine is pretty close to yours in many ways.

I just have to say this to a point, I think Res. made. He said, "That time is for you to get to know YOU as a single person. As a single person to make yourself happy all on your own. A single person that is independent and does not require having someone in their life to feel whole."

Um...why is it that everytime there is a break up, a spouse leaves another, that someone always seems to believe that the person left does not know themselves? How do you know he does not already know who he is? Did he know who he was before the marriage and some how during the time he was married he has forgotten who he is? Isn't it possible that now, even more than ever, he can already know who he is?

I hear people say that all the time and it makes me cringe almost. "Get to know you". I already know me! :-)

This also, and this is on a more serious note. He mentioned that a single person needs to make himself/herself happy on her own by herself. "A person who does not need someone else to feel whole."

This could not be further from the truth, and I say this with all due respect.

Just look at man. Wasn't it said that it is not good for man to be alone? Wasn't every creature ever created given a mate? No man is an island. Man was made to be with someone. How else did any of us get here? By nature we are people who need other people and this is perfected in finding a mate. I would like to suggest that if he feels ready to move on, make haste! You can meet people without sinning! You can go to dinner with a woman and it is not breaking anyone's law. Listen, you can go to a movie, recently divorced woman, with a man and enjoy yourself. Feel good about it. It is not wrong.

Heartbroken man, you can go for a long walk in the part with a woman, smile with her, laugh with her, cry with her, "it is not good for man to be alone". Don't punish yourself like that. Haven't you gone through enough pain?

Take this into consideration. Jeff, you are right. No one here can judge you. In fact, anyone here who tries to judge you they themselves would be judged just for that. You are divorced. You are as single as the man who has never been married. You have scars yes, but you also have knowledge. Knowledge that would carry you into your next relationship. If you had sex with someone, while you were married, last week, last night, it doesn't matter. If you made amends with God, who here can say anything to you? I know I can't. The only difference with you and anyone in MB is that you were bold enough to admit your wrong. ALL of us have done something that we dare not post here. You acknowledged what you did and now it is far removed from you.

Go ahead, my Man. You are alright.

DTIA:
THANK YOU and BRAVO!

I think I have fairly well known myself all along. I found out I didn't know know the person I was married to. The person I thought I was married to was a fantasy, the one I was actually married to was someone completely different from that fantasy. But I knew me then and now. For the most part. I have earned scars and gained knowledge as you say from having my bubble burst. Life goes on. Thanks for your kind words and insight. Beware: not everyone here will agree with you. Take a grain of salt and keep a sense of humor.

Apart from the issue of whether it's "okay" to date before a divorce is final, based on right/wrong/moral issues, on the other thread this one developed from, the individual seemed far too "messed up" to be dating.

Even if her divorce was final, IMHO, she was very far from ready to be getting involved with anyone.

I'm not gonna comment on the rest of this post because most here know how I feel about it and I'm not gonnna just stir the pot.

<small>[ August 18, 2004, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

DTIA: ^ case in point.

Chris -CA123:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> on the other thread this one developed from, the individual seemed far too "messed up" to be dating.
Even if her divorce was final, IMHO, she was very far from ready to be getting involved with anyone </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are right and believe me, I wish I had stayed out of it.

Ugh.

Look, the purpose of warning about boundary violations (such as dating before divorce) is not to point fingers and say "You're evil!" if you trespass. It's (a) to try to help people from hurting themselves and others, and (b) to try to help people recognize when they are hurting themselves and others, so they can stop doing it.

Is there a difference, as SerendipiT says, "between my potential dating intentions, and the intentions that were undergone by my cheating spouse"? Yes, probably - although in many cases the intentions of a cheating spouse are entirely honorable before they find themselves carried away by their emotions to the point where they the fog rolls in.

Mental and emotional distortions are not exclusive to those who are cavalier about their values. We are all vulnerable, and all the more so in times of stress.

When Jo said that the "waiting" time is "time for you to get to know YOU as a single person," she was not suggesting that the BS does not already know who he or she is. She was suggesting that the BS needs to adjust to being a whole person again. She was suggesting that time and attention are needed to disentangle oneself from one's enmeshment with the WS.

A good marriage relationship is an interdependent one, and interdependence can only be built upon a solid foundation of independence. (Without that, you end up with codependence.) But even when that independence is well established, there is significant enmeshment as a couple "becomes one."

If you are inclined to say "I'm different, I don't need that much time, I'm already over my marriage" then my automatic thought is that probably you are either deluding yourself, or you were not very invested in your marriage anyway - in which case I'd have to question your general marriage-worthiness, period. But I think what's particularly common is for people to think that just because they feel ready to move on, that means they are ready to move on.

I've heard story after story from people who believed that they were ready for a new relationship, only to realize down the road that they were deluding themselves. Sure, it can work sometimes - but even in those situations it's a lot harder than it needs to be if only a little character and patience were brought to bear.

I am continually amazed at the utter lack of patience demonstrated in our shortcut-driven I-want-it-all-now they've-got-it-so-I-should-have-it-too culture. I have watched time and again as people expressed their disbelief that anyone could actually live by the values that are held up as ideals, and as they acknowledged doing something "wrong" in the expectation that just the acknowledgement would make it all right.

Well, it's not all right. Not because God doesn't forgive (although I'm not so sure He does forgive if you take the attitude "Yeah, it was wrong, but I'm not sorry") and not because there may be holier-than-thou types who take glee in holding something against you forever. Rather, it's not all right because there are consequences, even after forgiveness - and some of those consequences may not become apparent for a long time to come.

You can say "Well, I did it, and I didn't get hurt." But that's a d**ned poor base from which to give advice. Just because you may not have gotten hurt doesn't mean that someone else won't. And chances are, you did get hurt whether you acknowledge it - even to yourself - or not.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

GnomeDePlume:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure, it can work sometimes - but even in those situations it's a lot harder than it needs to be if only a little character and patience were brought to bear.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I respect your opinion and I will assume that this is part of a general statement and you aren't questioning my personal character.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong>I respect your opinion and I will assume that this is part of a general statement and you aren't questioning my personal character.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct that I was making a general statement and did not intend to direct any specific accusation or aspersion against you or anyone else.

I'm just laying out the shoes. It's up to each reader to decide if he or she wants to check the fit.