What a thing to happen. I’m struggling for words.

Life is short and fragile and every minute we have with our children is a precious minute.

Good luck and thanks for letting us know what happened.

It seems you're not lost anymore.

-Roscoe

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Wow. I can only imagine the verbal and emotional abuse you are throwing down on your wife as a result of this hurt to you. It seems obvious your love bank is on empty, and your instinct is to LB LB LB so you can be sure she is hurting as much as you.

I am truly sorry for your pain.

But you have the power to stop this painful cycle. You need Plan B. In fact, I suspect it is too late for Plan B for you. But you need to get away from your wife, so her revelations can't hurt you anymore, and your raw, violent, contemptuous reactions can't hurt her anymore.

Before even Radical Honesty, there must be Protection. I don't think you are providing that. Plan B: to protect yourself and your wife.

My heart goes out to both of you. I imagine it is agonizing to be in your home right now. Do your entire family a favor and separate.

It's been a long time. I really tried to overcome the horribleness of the situation for my own sake and for my kids, but it doesn't seem to be working. I thought that after what had happened to my dear friend Carol, that H would also realize that nobody knows what tomorrow may bring and to live in today and be thankful for it. But, so much for that thought...

Life goes on here like usual. Good days, bad days, who can tell which is which anymore?

HOL - what happened? How did this recent revelation come about? After all these years?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hate her for this.. I had no idea so she could get away with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get away with what exactly? I'm not sure I understand.

Curious53 - I don't have to imagine the verbal and emotional abuse that HOL is probably inflicting on his W because I experience it regularly. I don't know if my H realizes that he is major LB'ing me or not. He doesn't follow MB or believe in it's theories. What makes so much sense to me is foreign to him. I do know that I am starting to feel differently toward him - angry at his refusal to look to a better tomorrow. Angry that every problem we've ever had is my fault. An emotional wreck because now I feel like I am totally worthless as a person and don't deserve to have a "nice" husband and two wonderful kids. Mad because he doesn't believe me that I wish I had been different. Mad because he doesn't see how good we are together and everything we've accomplished. I feel like saying OK fine - go out and get somebody who's worthy. Only problem is that he doesn't think he could get anybody else - he has to settle for me.

HOL - believe it, though. You are on the same track as we are. You will lose your wife. Is that what you really want? Almost sounds like you don't care. You hate her. I don't believe that - just as I choose to believe my H doesn't hate me. But it's coming to the point where something has to give...

What happens if we can't be what you and H want? The woman you thought you married? Then what? Give up? Life is over ..... I married a slut? What are we supposed to do?????

I have spent the last year and a half almost trying to prove to him that he is the one I love and that I will do anything for another chance. He can't give it to me. He will not be made a fool of again. I say what do you have to lose? You're at your lowest - it can only go up from here, but he seems to think this is what he deserves. To be miserable - he always was before - he's used to it.

I don't go anywhere - he doesn't trust me to leave the house. I only recently went back to work one day a week - only because they've made me. Otherwise - I'd be content to sit here every day all day long and not see another soul.

And I try to get him to go out - I know he wants to. But, he doesn't. He'd rather be home and be miserable with me. Which only makes me feel worse. I just wish he'd go and find out that life isn't all that exciting. What we have right now, right here is what life is all about. Making a home, having a family, spending time togehter. It's everything I've always wanted - he wants something more exciting.

He thinks I married him because he was stupid. He truly believes that I married him so I could keep on doing what I was doing and he'd never know. I try to tell him that I married him because I thought he was the only one that ever saw past the obvious. I tell him that he seemed so confident in himself that his behavior now seems to make me think I didn't know him, either. I never had any idea how insecure he was about women. I just thought he had better things to do - like fishing and hunting. And I was attracted to that!

I'm babbling I know, but tonight was bad. An old girlfriend (who I haven't seen in about 10 years) called tonight and asked me to go out. We've talked on the phone a few time over the past several years but I haven't seen her. I used to "hang around" with her and she was with me the night I met H. Well, I told her that tonight wouldn't work so well for me - that I needed more notice. H said, "Go - could be just like old times." It pissed me off bad. This friend of mine was also promiscuous in her past - but used her life experience to become a social worker and counsels women. I asked him did he really think if I went out and had a drink with Kris that I'd go out and get you know what.... He thinks I would. I'm so about at the end of my rope....

Invite them to our wedding Lost? Was that the past? Did they have to be there? I knew nothing about it.. I would never have treated her like that.. ever.. You don't see a problem with that? At least 3 different men.(so far)

"HOL - what happened? How did this recent revelation come about? After all these years?"

I was looking at our wedding pictures and saw men i didn't recognize so i asked. There was even a new one to add to the list. I had never even wondered before because i never would have guessed that of her but now that i know her better i expected it of her.. How many were at your wedding?
h

<small>[ November 02, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Why do you need me to see why you don't trust her anymore? I don't really see that as the central issue. The central issue is that the two of you are engaged in a terrible cycle and are hurting each other. What are YOU going to do to stop that cycle?

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

Yes, you do know. You are depleting her love bank balance and she is depleting yours. As far as I can see, neither of you is making deposits (meeting emotional needs). Separate, so that you will not hurt each other any more. Separation will provide protection, where neither of you is able to do that on your own (you're not able to protect her from your angry outbursts, and she's not able to protect you from her incremental revelations).

I also recommend you call Dr. Harley's show. I'm sure the instructions for doing this are somewhere on this site. I think you could benefit from some direct intervention by the Harley's.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

hol,
Please note that I am not recommending divorce. I'm saying that you cannot rebuild your relationship until you stop hurting each other. And I don't think you can stop hurting each other right now unless you separate. I think it's probably the only way to avoid further damage to your marriage. Once you have stopped hurting each other, and BOTH of you feel protected, you can start work on the Rule of Care and meeting emotional needs and avoiding love busters.
And I really think you're going to need a coach for this. From what I see, the two of you have been spinning your wheels around this issue for quite some time. That indicates to me that you are going to need help from a third party to get out of your painful rut.
Call Dr. Harley.
Good luck.

Curious53 - I do agree that Hol and Liar2 must stop hurting each other. Plan B sounds ultra scary to me, though. I just wish HOL and my H could focus on tomorrow instead of yesterday and for them it seems impossible. The memory will fade if you don't continuously dwell on it. I know that's true because I can barely remember any of it.

HOL - have you sought counseling yourself to help you deal? Is Liar2 still seeing somebody to help her recover the past? You keep saying that she's lying and you don't know how to stop it the cycle. How did she lie about the guys at your wedding? Did she outright lie? Did you actually come out and ask her if there was anybody at your wedding that she had been intimate with and then she deny it? Or was it an omission? I know that omissions (even though technically a lie) aren't always done on purpose when the past isn't clear. And yes, there was at least one at my wedding. I'd have to really think about who was there to know for sure if I may be overlooking somebody - I don't really dare say anything for sure. Truth is, though, my H has a much better time understanding the "friend" scenario than he does the rest.

Even though Liar2 hasn't posted in ages and I don't know if she still even reads, it seems to me that she's trying. She wants to get through to the past so badly so she can give you what you want - that number. I have my doubts that once you get that number, that things will improve, though.

I don't have any answers for you, HOL. What is it that you want? And if you can't have first choice, then what's second? Do you want to be happy with Liar2? Or do you want most to make her miserable for making you miserable?

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: lost ]</small>

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

God, HOL, you sound like my H. You want to set her free - set her free to do what? To go back to how she was before? Or are you really saying you want to free her from you? I think you need to elaborate.

HOL, it sounds like you want to make her suffer like she did to you. I know the feeling, unfortunately.

I was lied to by my husband, the only difference in our cases there is that I started to find out the truth pretty quickly after we were married, instead of it being many years later. So far, his total is a lot less than yours, but I know it could be more in coming years, as he has a chronic lying habit. He made me (unknowingly) have dinner with one of his formers, and she was invited to our wedding...at least she had the sense or was embarrassed enough not to go. He has acted like a complete jerk. He has torn my life apart, violated my trust in the deepest sense, and this will not go away, ever. I still find crap he's saved from women in old boxes of his sometimes when I look for tools and stuff. It always brings everything back. There are just too many triggers. It's gotten better over the past years, at least I don't cry EVERY day any more.

The thing is, through it all, we have stayed in love. He's my best friend, and he says I'm his, even though I have a hard time believing that, since he said that I was the only best friend he's ever had, while I know he told other women that they were his best friends. His lies do taint everything.

We still don't say things to each other to hurt each other. We don't say things that indicated someone is worthy of marriage and someone else is not. If I was to judge you harshly, HOL, I could say that YOU were not worthy of marriage, since you treat your wife, who you promised to love, like absolute crap. Yeah, she treats you like crap. She does not deserve you when she treats you that way. But YOU made a promise, and that was not "I'll love you as long as I feel like it or think you deserve it." You are a rat [censored] for not honoring your own wedding vows to her, when you value truth so much. You lied to her when you promised to love her, and that makes you a world-class jerk. She doesn't deserve someone as bad as you. Especially when you have your own past as well. I have read other posts of yours, and you slept around, too, and as far as I'm concerned, more than one sexual partner in your life is too many.

If I wanted to, I could sit on my high pedestal with my husband, telling him how great I was because I saved myself for him, telling him what a slut he is, and how he's not "worthy of marriage" to me. I don't do that, because I don't even think that way. Yes, sometimes I get very angry at the situation, and very angry over things that seem unfair to me...I got something different than what I bargained for on my wedding day...but it passes, I think through it, and I know that my husband is the love of my life, and always will be. I focus on all the good parts of him, all the things about him that make me love him. THAT is what makes me a good wife.

Yes, he knows all about how much he's hurt me. Yes, I've (inadvertantly) hurt him, so much so that he KNOWS full well how much he's hurt me. You can't look at your spouse cry every day for like 6 months because of something you did and not feel horrible about yourself. I tried to minimize the damage to him, and tell him how much I DO love him, even if the pain is so great. He is worth it, because I CHOOSE to love him and make him worth it. He does rise to my expectations. He feels like he doesn't deserve me, he feels like he is lucky to have someone like me that loves him. He is. He is lucky. But so am I, I'm lucky that he got out of that lifestyle and started building a good life with me. Most people don't get out of that mess, and I'm so happy that he did. Even if it means he has major mistakes along the way.

I do tell him how I feel. I do tell him what I think and how much it hurts. Why would I hide that from him? What good would it do? But I don't tell him in an angry way. I tell him it's horrible that he still has sheets from those times. I'd have burned those things if it were ME that had a past. I'd have been sensitive to that. But he wasn't, so I tell him to get rid of them, and that I find them offensive just being in my house. I find their very existence repulsive. I wish they were disintigrated into a billion pieces. Hey, it's better to hate sheets than my husband. I DO hate the old him...I hate what he did, I hate what it does to me. But I don't hate HIM. He is just not the same now as he was, even if he does make mistakes. It's ok to express how you feel, but you have to think about the ultimate goal you want to achieve. A better marriage? Work for that, not for revenge. Unless, of course, revenge is what you want. It will tear you apart as much as it tears her. You will not survive the revenge as any kind of a whole person. You'll have nothing left to offer anyone, not even your children. I am 100% sure of this. Revenge will kill you inside. It will leave you empty and hollow and mean, hateful and distrustful of all those around you. And I do believe it's revenge you want. I'm too close to your situation not to see it exactly for what it is.

Don't think it's easy for me. I value truth more than anything else in my life. I find it extremely difficult to lie to someone and feel real anxiety if I do it. The one time I lied to my husband I confessed two minutes later because I couldn't stand it. I don't know how he can do this to me, how he can lie to me without even thinking about it. It is so easy for him because he practiced it for so many years.

HOL, I don't know how you'll save yourself or your marriage. Or even if you can at this point. You must want to, or else you wouldn't be here. I KNOW you are frustrated. I have been there, done that, and it's still going on.

Here's my suggestion:
Don't SAY anything about this to your wife for a week. Or a month. I don't know how often you actually talk about this with her. Let it be long enough that some things could come up. Instead of saying them, write them down in a letter. Put the letter in an envelope, lick it, and write a date for at least four days later. Open it up on that date, and pretend someone's writing it to you. What would you do/think/feel if you got that letter? Is that letter going to achieve the goal you have in mind? If it is, give it to your wife. If it's not, rewrite it and try again. And remember that a judge could be looking at these letters some day when he is trying to grant a divorce to you.

And for pete's sake, quit wallowing in self pity. What good is that ever going to do? There's a time and a place, but you've had long enough to wallow. At this point it's just unhealthy and destructive.

Liar2, if you check back here, get down on your knees and beg HOL to forgive you, beg him to move on, and tell him over and over how sorry you are that you lied to him, and how sorry you are that you ruined his life. Tell him ten times a day if you have to. He won't believe you, since you've lied so many other times, but maybe if you say it often enough, he will. Of course, if you lie to him about it and you're really not sorry, then HOL is better off without you.

Wow, I haven't been to this site in a long time and still HOL is continuing to have problems with his wife's past. HOL, I agree with Prettygarnet, you need to quit wallowing in self pity. It is time now to stand up and make a decision of staying or leaving. I really don't think that you and your wife are going to be able to stay together. More "revelations" will surely come in the future and you will have to go through this cycle time and time again. Can you handle that? If so, then stay in your marriage and love your wife unconditionally. If not, leave leave leave!

Remember once you make the choice you have to stick with it. I sincerely hope that you choose to move on with your marriage, but that is not my decision to make.

To Prettygarnet:

It was great to read your response. As you know, we both have gone through pretty much the same situation. I am glad to see that you and your husband are still together. I agree with your statement that you don't hate them but instead hate what they did. I feel the same way. Just to let you know, I have finally gotten to the point where I don't think about my wife's past choices on a daily basis. Even if it does creep into my mind, it doesn't sting as bad as it used to. Thanks for your insightful response to HOL's post.

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<small>[ November 11, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>