losthusband, I started reading your post and thought what the heck....by the second paragraph, I knew what you were getting at. I agree, for those that ask about when a good time to date, that is a great analogy. I would of never thought of it that way. There may be situations that this may not apply, but in general I think people need time to heal and learn from their divorce. My bosses stepson, who divorced maybe a year or so ago is already engaged to someone new and his mother told him "maybe you should figure out why your last marriage didn't work". I thought that was great advice.

losthusband, I started reading your post and thought what the heck....by the second paragraph, I knew what you were getting at. I agree, for those that ask about when a good time to date, that is a great analogy. I would of never thought of it that way. There may be situations that this may not apply, but in general I think people need time to heal and learn from their divorce. My bosses stepson, who divorced maybe a year or so ago is already engaged to someone new and his mother told him "maybe you should figure out why your last marriage didn't work". I thought that was great advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dsd67:
<strong> My bosses stepson, who divorced maybe a year or so ago is already engaged to someone new and his mother told him "maybe you should figure out why your last marriage didn't work". I thought that was great advice. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That IS great advice!

Before I ever get seriously involved with someone again (a divorce man, that is), I would want to know several things:

1) Why/how did your marriage end? What part did you play in the problems of your marriage?
2) What have you done since the end of your marriage to recover?

Time alone doesn't bring about true recovery, although it TAKES time to really allow it to happen. I would want to know that the person I get involved with has really done the work needed to recover...otherwise, I wouldn't want to really be with that person!

Seabreeze!!! I am so sorry !! I truly did not assume you were the WS - I knew you were the BH.
I was just showing (although badly) how we- even us as the BS - sometimes speak in fog. I am talking about my own fog speak about how I thought I was different from everyone else - I had healed faster than anyone else - when in fact I am no differnt from anyone else.
And I dragged you into the pool with me by saying that we All - Especially me - need to be aware when we say something that sounds a little like we are speaking in fog. So when you say that your marriage was over years ago, and therefore your time has gone by all ready, I just caution you to be very careful, because that sounds like something my Ex said while under the influence of the OW. Thats all - just be careful.
I think we all will be ultra sensitive to certain key phrases, and actions, for a very long time.
I feel bad that I made it sound like you were the WS. Please forgive me!!
Dont get me wrong though - in spite of all my great soul searching - if someone were to call me up today, and ask me out, I would accept. I am just not out there actively seeking right now.

I didn't say my marriage was over for years. I said I was alone long before my marriage was over. I also went on to describe the mistakes I made after the divorce. This all happened a couple of years ago for me.

Different people and situations mean different experiences and time frames.

Some of the marriages one here ended quickly after an affair was revealed. Not much time for preperation are realization of the consequences. Others ended like mine after a couple of years of doing for yourself without the friend that used to be your spouse. While married I spent a long time at the end working on myself and doing what I knew was right regardless of how I was being treated. I continued with that after the divorce.

Many people on here are very adament and sensitive about their beliefs and opinions. There is a tremendous variety of people and situations all requiring unique actions. One size does not fit all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sea Breeze:
<strong>...Different people and situations mean different experiences and time frames. ...There is a tremendous variety of people and situations all requiring unique actions. One size does not fit all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Because I have no children to keep me entangled with my ex-wife, and because she cut off all communication with me immediately after leaving, it took only about four years from that point for me to get to where I believe it would be reasonable for me to "date." And because the divorce took so long (mainly due to the lack of communication and a terribly screwed-up court system), this was just a year-and-a-half after the divorce was finalized!

One size doesn't fit all. But the small end of the range of sizes tends to be rather larger than most people are prepared to accept.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sea Breeze:
<strong> Different people and situations mean different experiences and time frames.

Many people on here are very adament and sensitive about their beliefs and opinions. There is a tremendous variety of people and situations all requiring unique actions. One size does not fit all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but in saying that, let's not just throw out all advice (from experts who see thousands of couples day in and day out) and standards (from the Bible or other moral sources).

It's much easier for people in our situations to say "yes, but I'M different...MY situation is different." Of course we are all different! But let's take a look at the information we DO know about this (from other people's experiences, and professionals, etc.) and see what we can learn...before we just go out there and do our own uniquely, different (and usually stupid) thing!

...before we just go out there and do our own uniquely, different (and usually stupid) thing!

I resemble that remark!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I just noticed - as I was adding my reply here - that the thread right below this one is titled "Dating While Separted". Gee - wonder why this threade was started??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh my, LH! Why do I feel compelled to post a response to this thread? Maybe because 95% (a conservative estimate) of my job is dealing with alcoholics, drug addicts, and child rapists. Some are a combination of the 3. Very few are recovered or even recovering. Several could fit in the newly seperated/ divorced category. I fit that one my self. I kinda have issues with being thrown in there with the alcoholic/ drug addict/ child rapist group but I get your point, a sin is a sin and I'm a sinner. Maybe I feel the urge to post because you and I have had a different opinion on this issue in the not so distant past. Mine hasn't changed and I see yours hasn't either. Imagine that. So we're still gonna disagree.
Not on everything- being seperated doesn't mean you aren't married and having sex with someone other than your spouse while married is adultery. I did that. My WxW and were seperated but we were still married and I had sex with another woman. I commited adultery. Before I met my WxW, I was engaged to someone else. During that engagement I started dating an old girlfriend again. I was cheating on my fiance. It was wrong, I knew it, I felt extreme guilt. I told my fiance, it hurt her very badly, I felt extreme guilt. The engagement was off, my fault, I blew it. I learned from the experience, I would never do that again. Also before I met my WxW, I had a one night stand with a married woman. It was wrong, I knew it, I felt extreme guilt. I learned from that experience, married women are off limits, I would never do that again. I comitted adultery when my WxW and I were seperated. I felt no guilt, except for on paper, my marriage was over. If I had it to do over again, I doubt that I would change that part of my divorce process or my healing process. Think of me what you will for that, frankly LH I don't give a rats a$$ anymore. Morality aside, I'm not saying it is the right thing to do, I am not encouraging anyone to do the same, but it worked for me. I already admitted I a sinner.

As for dating when newly divorced, deadtoitall said it much more eloquently than ever I could on another thread dealing with this same topic:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just have to say this to a point, I think Res. made. He said, "That time is for you to get to know YOU as a single person. As a single person to make yourself happy all on your own. A single person that is independent and does not require having someone in their life to feel whole."

Um...why is it that everytime there is a break up, a spouse leaves another, that someone always seems to believe that the person left does not know themselves? How do you know he does not already know who he is? Did he know who he was before the marriage and some how during the time he was married he has forgotten who he is? Isn't it possible that now, even more than ever, he can already know who he is?

I hear people say that all the time and it makes me cringe almost. "Get to know you". I already know me! :-)

This also, and this is on a more serious note. He mentioned that a single person needs to make himself/herself happy on her own by herself. "A person who does not need someone else to feel whole."

This could not be further from the truth, and I say this with all due respect.

Just look at man. Wasn't it said that it is not good for man to be alone? Wasn't every creature ever created given a mate? No man is an island. Man was made to be with someone. How else did any of us get here? By nature we are people who need other people and this is perfected in finding a mate. I would like to suggest that if he feels ready to move on, make haste! You can meet people without sinning! You can go to dinner with a woman and it is not breaking anyone's law. Listen, you can go to a movie, recently divorced woman, with a man and enjoy yourself. Feel good about it. It is not wrong.

Heartbroken man, you can go for a long walk in the park with a woman, smile with her, laugh with her, cry with her, "it is not good for man to be alone". Don't punish yourself like that. Haven't you gone through enough pain?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so UUGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! back atcha.

Oh yeah, and hugs too.

To be clear: As I would never blame anyone trying to be with someone again (dating) at any time (ok, being married excluded), I'd never allow anyone to blame me for my choice either.

I deeply understood meaning of the first post on this thread. It's the essence of my choice these days, months, almost one year.

I've never had problem with being alone and happy, 'the whole' and alone... and always had with being with someone and yet so alone.
And now, after..., I have no rush. I have no need. Except to be happy alone with myself again.
I don't want to 'heal' wounds with new wounds. Even thought hurts me. I don't want to escape to a new escape. Nor I need a 'replacement'.

I am so full of love yet so empty for giving, can offer nothing, and ask fr nothing but being back to (healed) myself.

...Enjoying this journeying with somehow new myself...

Post deleted by FoundMan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s good to see you Jeff and I hope all is going well in your continuing journey. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its good to be here and fairly well thank you. Hope you are as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Really, what do you do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a parole officer in a state that sort of neighbors yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you above or better than me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not. Never meant to insinuate that I am better than anyone. I have some ticking time bomb pedophiles on my caseload that I don't want to be thought of as part of their group but on the sin is a sin playing field, I guess I am. Excuse me while I puke for awhile.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> [QUOTE] [B]Ouch!!!! STRIKE THREE!!!!!! Your out….. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Am I the only one that sees a pattern here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Put the "pattern" in the proper time frame. I believe I said those occured before I met my WxW. 22+ years ago. I'm not trying to make excuses, I know what excuses smell like, but I don't think 2 really bad errors in judgement when I was young and dumb and full of ...... well you know, establish a pattern connected to present times. The point I was trying to make is that I felt guilty because I 1.) hurt innocent people, 2.) knew immediately that it was wrong. When I committed adultery I didn't feel any guilt because .1) noone was hurt and 2.) the only thing left of my marriage was the paperwork, emotionally it was over for both of us.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Really…… What exactly did you learn? You went on from there to cheat on a fiancé and then on your wife, so what did you learn? That it’s ok to cheat on as long as she’s not married, seriously Jeff what have you learned. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I learned that it is a horrible painful thing to cheat on a loved one or to help a woman cheat on her husband. I have not, will not do that ever again. Okay, after I learned this, I cheated on my wife. I did not cheat on a loved one. That was long gone. My wife couldn't have cared less if I had air to breathe much less who I was having sex with. That Love Bank was looted, pilaged, doors closed forever. Still cheating though, I know, I know, I know,.................

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That’s sad.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't be sad. I'm not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How was that part of the healing process. Oh ya, the big EGO boost. The only person standing between you and eternal happiness is YOU and your EGO.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still don’t know how you feel it worked for you. Also Jeff there is a difference between unknowingly being swept into to sin and habitually violating when you know that it’s wrong.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ego boost? Sure was. At that point my ego had been on the losing end of a train wreck. I bet if we had total honesty here, I wouldn't be the only one that had a rebound and maybe some others could also say it helped their recovery. But, it was still a sin, I know, I know, I know,.......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And since we’re dealing with DIVORCED people here, obviously they are bringing an unhealthy married person into that new relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t like the word perfection. And I see that we all did this so well that we are now hanging out on the D&D board, yup that’s perfect. Yet so many blindly refuse to accept that there is another way. They denounce years of studies and deny the existence of a path that requires a serious personal inventory. The idea that two healthy people can equal a healthy marriage where one unhealthy individual with a healthy person or two unhealthy people will equal a bad marriage escapes them. Good begets good and bad begets bad.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm not going to try to convince you that being married to Jeff was a day at the beach. I may have had my faults. But how can you say that I was/ am an unhealthy married person going into a new relationship? My wife walked into my office, told me she wasn't happy, wanted a divorce. Claimed there was noone else and never had been. This was my first clue there was a problem in my marriage. She even admitted she blindsided me. Even after detective Jeff started digging and found that I had been married to an imaginary person for 11 years, I was willing to make changes and work to save our marriage. She had no interest, no counseling, nothing. One person can not keep a marriage together alone. Does that make me an unhealthy married person?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That’s awesome but the a heartbroken man must realize that he is a broken man.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, I knew I was heartbroken. I see a shrink (he strongly advised me against going into the rebound relationnship), I take antidepressants (should have started years ago), I am working on repairing the damage. I have a few more grey hairs and some experience to go on from the ordeal too. I am sort of in a relationship now and we are going real slow. My biggest baggage from her view point is that my divorce is so fresh. But she is also a certified mental health counselor and she often tells me that I am further along than she thought I could be. Still we take it slow. And I am happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not too close there Jeff…. People are watching….
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't get paranoid, you're not my type. I kinda figure I'm not yours either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LostHusband:
Am I the only one that sees a pattern here?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Put the "pattern" in the proper time frame. I believe I said those occured before I met my WxW. 22+ years ago. I'm not trying to make excuses, I know what excuses smell like, but I don't think 2 really bad errors in judgement when I was young and dumb and full of ...... well you know, establish a pattern connected to present times. The point I was trying to make is that I felt guilty because I 1.) hurt innocent people, 2.) knew immediately that it was wrong. When I committed adultery I didn't feel any guilt because .1) noone was hurt and 2.) the only thing left of my marriage was the paperwork, emotionally it was over for both of us. ...Still cheating though, I know, I know, I know,.................</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't see a pattern here either.

Some 22+ years ago, we see a man 1) hurt innocent people, 2) recognize that people were hurt, 3) know immediately that it was wrong, 4) feel guilty, and 5) decide not to do it again.

Roll the timeline forward to not long before the present day, and we see a man 1) hurt innocent people, 2) fail to recognize that people were hurt, 3) acknowledge that it was a sin, 4) fail to feel guilty, and 5) admit that if he had it to do over again he would make the same choice.

Not the same thing at all.

Okay, GnomeDePlume:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Roll the timeline forward to not long before the present day, and we see a man 1) hurt innocent people, 2) fail to recognize that people were hurt, 3) acknowledge that it was a sin, 4) fail to feel guilty, and 5) admit that if he had it to do over again he would make the same choice.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now tell me who was hurt because you're right, I fail to recognize it.

But really, there is nothing wrong with opposite sex friendships.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Okay, defend this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong>Now tell me who was hurt because you're right, I fail to recognize it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, deafjeff...you, for one. Your failure to recognize it is just one indication.

You talk about the ego boost you got out of your affair, without even seeing the sad superficiality of that "boost." Yeah, you proved to yourself that you still had "it" - the ability to exert a kind of power over a young girl that kept her coming back for more. But this was a girl who had never learned to integrate her body and mind and spirit - to see the holistic beauty God designed into the mutual giving of sex and its connection with other forms of intimacy. And instead of modeling for her the kind of character which might waken in her a spiritual sense of self-worth, you contributed to her dis-integration and reinforced for her the idea that it was OK to use and be used for the purposes of self-gratification. You may not have set her on that road, deafjeff, but you took advantage of her brokenness, and in so doing you did indeed hurt her too.

No, I don't know either you or her, and it's possible I may be a bit off the mark - but I doubt I'm too far off. Because God does not give us arbitrary rules to follow; His commandments are given for our benefit, and when we break them someone will get hurt. Any time we start thinking along the lines of "yeah, sure, I sinned, but it's no big deal, since nobody's perfect and God can't possibly expect me to live up to His standards all the time" we are on very dangerous ground. "What then, shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" (Romans 6:1) A flippant attitude toward sin runs completely counter to the process of spiritual growth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LostHusband:
But really, there is nothing wrong with opposite sex friendships.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<strong> Okay, defend this. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try making a list of Jesus' friends. Are there any women on it?

Since He was perfect, there was no worries about Him falling in (romantic) love with any of them.

Oh, and he was single, so it would not have mattered if He did have relationships with them.

Let's rephrase the original statement.
But really, there is nothing wrong with opposite sex friendships as long as you are Jesus.

There is no problem with single people having relationships with single people.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

OK, Chris, reading between the lines it seems like you have an objection to opposite sex friendships under circumstances which could lead to "falling in love" inappropriately.

In my opinion, eschewing friendship because of this risk is overkill. Setting boundaries on the amount of time spent together, the location of the time spent together, the choice of conversational topics, etc., is wise (and different friendships may require different boundaries), but carrying this to the point where, say, you refuse to ever talk to a woman, is clearly extreme. I'm assuming that you are not advocating anything that extreme, Chris, so I guess I'm wondering what boundaries you would use to define the kind of "friendship" you are concerned about.

OK, Chris, reading between the lines it seems like you have an objection to opposite sex friendships under circumstances which could lead to "falling in love" inappropriately.
Yes. This is how most affairs start. Opposite sex friendships (because there is nothing wrong withit) and it gradually gets to the point (we're just friends, why should I stop talking with him, NOTHING is going on) where they are in too deep.

Absolutely one should set boundaries. And initially most people do.
But after they became familiar with this person, they see no reason to keep the boundaries in the same place, "because nothing is going on. Why can't I go to lunch alone with him and discuss business?".

No, I'm not saying one cannot talk with others.
For instance, you can talk with the secretary at work. Keep it work related. Don't pop in to just say "hi" and see what going on.
Here are two NOT acceptable behaviors by a married person with someone of the opposite sex.
- Going to lunch alone with them
- Having a relationship outside of work and exclusive of the spouse

Here is a good explanation. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html
Read the part right after How do Affairs Begin? after the second letter.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>