GnomeDePlume:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, deafjeff...you, for one. Your failure to recognize it is just one indication.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay. If I was hurt by it, I guess I must really be a masochist because I'll take all that kind of pain I can get.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, I don't know either you or her, and it's possible I may be a bit off the mark </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bingo. I am [censored]-u-ming that you are refering to my partner in my infidelity. Here is some of her story. She was married before I met her and she cheated on her H with her best friend's H. They divorced. She started dating someone, found out he was married, she ended that releationship. I came along, we had our fling, I ended it, she went back to the married man. She knew what she was doing the whole time. Maybe I sensed something that told me to get out. Oh by the way, I hear that now she is dating a nice guy and things are going well, I'm happy for her.
I'm not going to get in a Bible quote and interpretation battle with you but if God is going to send me to hell for my infidelity that I have no remorse for, I probably did some other crap along the way that had me headed there anyway. That will be His call.

Also to you GnomeDePlume and Chris-CA123:
I think </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But really, there is nothing wrong with opposite sex friendships.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">originated with Deadtoitall. Forgive me DTIA if I am wrong.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Okay, defend this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I obviously don't have enough sense to shut up so I'll jump on this one too. What the hell is there to defend? If you can't have opposite sex friends, friends that you have no more sexual chemistry with than your same sex friends, well to paraphrase LH, thats sad.

If you can't have opposite sex friends, friends that you have no more sexual chemistry with than your same sex friends, well to paraphrase LH, thats sad.
Which is sadder, not having opposite sex friendships or a 50% divorce rate because people fall in love (because of these opposite sex friendships)?.

The problem is the sexual chemistry develops (not always) and once it does, people will not end the relationship, anymore than a crack addict will stop using "just because".

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong>Here is some of her story...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. I guess I wasn't so far off after all. I rest my case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm not going to get in a Bible quote and interpretation battle with you but if God is going to send me to hell for my infidelity that I have no remorse for, I probably did some other crap along the way that had me headed there anyway. That will be His call.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You really don't understand what this is about, do you, deafjeff? It's not about whether you're going to hell, it's about whether you're living life in tune with God. If that's not something that matters to you, then I can see why you wouldn't want to bother with what the Bible has to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Which is sadder, not having opposite sex friendships or a 50% divorce rate because people fall in love (because of these opposite sex friendships)?.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is all of the 50% divorce rate because of infidelity? I don't think it is. A significant amount of it probably but not all. Enough that thats why a lot of us are in this forum. I'm not sure how my MxW and her current OM got started, I haven't been privy to the truth. Her story is that God brought him into her life. I think her first one that I know of was more of a sex thing from the beginning than a friendship that got out of hand. Anyway, I thank God for the opposite sex friends that I have. Several of them have given me great insight and comfort through my ordeal. And no sexual chemistry. Not everyone has the character flaw that allows that to happen.

OK, Chris, I think I understand and I don't believe I'm in disagreement with you. But I think if you'll go back and look at the context where Bill said "there is nothing wrong with opposite sex friendships," you will find that he was talking about singles.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong>And no sexual chemistry. Not everyone has the character flaw that allows that to happen. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sexual chemistry is the result of a character flaw?

!

I don't know what to say, other than "Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (I Corinthians 10:12)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow. I guess I wasn't so far off after all. I rest my case.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. I rest mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You really don't understand what this is about, do you, deafjeff? It's not about whether you're going to hell, it's about whether you're living life in tune with God. If that's not something that matters to you, then I can see why you wouldn't want to bother with what the Bible has to say. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate your opinion and even more so your right to have one. I might not be on the same spiritual plane as you. I'm not saying that it doesn't matter about how in tune I am with God. I will say that I already have a preacher so thanks anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> The problem is the sexual chemistry develops (not always) and once it does, people will not end the relationship, anymore than a crack addict will stop using "just because". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mean to jump into the middle of this, but having a friend of the opposite sex does not automatically lead to sexual attraction or addiction or whatever!

When I was married, I had opposite sex friends. Period. Even while single, I have opposite sex friends. Nothing about that leads me to abandon my integrity and automatically fall into some addictive relationship with them. And yes, even IF there is a chemistry there.

I make choices in life how to live my life and neither chemistry or marital status automaticaly determines them. My integrity and knowledge of right and wrong does.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sexual chemistry is the result of a character flaw? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't mean sexual chemistry is a character flaw, infidelity is. Possibly a little understated. And okay I have exhibited a character flaw, Iknow, I know, I know,...........

Thank you Ms.O. Very well put.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: deafjeff ]</small>

jeff,
Is all of the 50% divorce rate because of infidelity? I don't think it is. A significant amount of it probably but not all.
Okay, then which is sadder,
- not having opposite sex friendships?
- 50%-75% of marriages with infidelity (and the accompanying broken hearts)?

I think her first one that I know of was more of a sex thing from the beginning than a friendship that got out of hand.
They immediately had sex before they were even friends?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Okay, then which is sadder,
- not having opposite sex friendships?
- 50%-75% of marriages with infidelity (and the accompanying broken hearts)?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess everybody has to make their own choice there. All relationships have to have boundries. It is sad to not have a true friend regardless of of their gender because of the infidelity rate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> They immediately had sex before they were even friends? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pretty much so. They couldn't have possibly known each other long enough to become true friends. Before WxW and I got together she was capable of meeting a guy in a bar, go out with him once and have sex on that first date so it wouldn't have been anything new to her except for the part about being married when she did it this time.

Looks like I missed a lot of good interaction after I left.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> [QUOTE]You really don't understand what this is about, do you, deafjeff? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off Jeff, I want to preface my comments with the understanding that I really do enjoy your input and conversation. It’s not that you don’t have the capability to understand but I feel that you are not willing to view the larger picture. It’s like you’re explaining a white ball with red stitches and we’re discussing the game of baseball as a whole. We’re looking at the players, parks, & strategies and your still focusing on the ball.

I do believe that is partially because you take comments as a personal judgmental attack on yourself and feel the need to defend. There is no growth in defense. And no Jeff, I’m not going to preach to you, but I do encourage you to explore with your preacher where Ego & Pride fit in with your relationship with God as well as others in your life. I also encourage to keep commenting and replying because I know you have a lot to offer but I also challenge you to listen, learn, and explore the possibility that maybe there really is a whole game and not just a baseball.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong> I want to look at this through my insane mind, bear with me for a moment. Is it not possible that a person stops growing as an individual when they become involved with their spouse? Their growth from that point is directed and influenced by their spouse and other environmental conditions as a “MARRIED PERSON” and not a single person. And therefore, they do need to get back in touch with themselves as a “single person” otherwise they basically bring themselves as a “married person” into their next relationship. And since we’re dealing with DIVORCED people here, obviously they are bringing an unhealthy married person into that new relationship.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gnome, Chris, Jeff or others: any thoughts on this statement?

Okay.
Is it not possible that a person stops growing as an individual when they become involved with their spouse? Their growth from that point is directed and influenced by their spouse and other environmental conditions as a “MARRIED PERSON” and not a single person.
Yes. And I think this is how it should be. As a married person, your identity should BE as a married person.

And therefore, they do need to get back in touch with themselves as a “single person” otherwise they basically bring themselves as a “married person” into their next relationship.
Again, yes. This is one of the points that I try to make when people ask, "is it okay to date while married?"
Get divorced, sort your own life out AS A SINGLE PERSON, then start dating.
But many people seem to think that in order to be whole/okay/over it, they NEED to date., when in fact it is just the opposite.
They need to be whole/okay/over it BEFORE they date.

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Bill, I doubt that it's generally true that a person stops growing when they get married, but I think they do start growing in a different direction than they would have if they had remained single. I'm not very happy with phrases like "you need to get to know yourself again" - I prefer the term "disentangle" - but I think we're really all saying pretty much the same thing. It's just semantics.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First off Jeff, I want to preface my comments with the understanding that I really do enjoy your input and conversation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, and I yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s not that you don’t have the capability to understand but I feel that you are not willing to view the larger picture. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Careful, don't give me too much credit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s like you’re explaining a white ball with red stitches and we’re discussing the game of baseball as a whole. We’re looking at the players, parks, & strategies and your still focusing on the ball. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see what you mean by that, but sometimes it looks like some of ya'll are looking at the jumbled up mess inside the horsehide and red thread and trying to fix it even if it isn't broken.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do believe that is partially because you take comments as a personal judgmental attack on yourself and feel the need to defend. There is no growth in defense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I probably do take it too personally, but if you quote me (or start a thread directed at me) and then point out how I am "wrong" or wrong minded I'll probably tend to do that. That doesn't mean nothing is sinking in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And no Jeff, I’m not going to preach to you, but I do encourage you to explore with your preacher where Ego & Pride fit in with your relationship with God as well as others in your life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, I will take you up on that advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also encourage to keep commenting and replying because I know you have a lot to offer but I also challenge you to listen, learn, and explore the possibility that maybe there really is a whole game and not just a baseball. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I will. Here is a challenge for you and for me to do it where I understand it I have to move out of the ball park to another arena. I have a guy that tests positive for marijuana, he is doing something illegal that I should look into. I also have a guy that has a thing for 6 to 8 year old boys and a tip that he is on the prowl. Both are doing something that I need to deal with. There are only so many hours in a day, do I spend them on the guy thats been smoking a little weed or Chester the Molester. They're both doing something illegal. But there is a gray area there. I used to have trouble with gray areas. There was right or wrong, nothing in between. Now I see there are gray areas all over the place. Do you see them? I fully expect to get hammered on this one, go ahead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And since we’re dealing with DIVORCED people here, obviously they are bringing an unhealthy married person into that new relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is going to get good and I'm running out of time for the weekend. It takes 2 to make a marriage. When that marriage fails noone comes away without scars. But why is someone an unhealthy formerly married person because their marriage recently ended. Isn't it possible that they were in fairly good health all along?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong> [QUOTE] is someone an unhealthy formerly married person because their marriage recently ended. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

All seriousness aside, I've got to bail for the weekend but I'll hit you up next week. Have a great weekend.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers


Billy
PS...Shoot Chuckie, go blow one with Tweeker, and relax dude......... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> JK, I'll respond later.

Where did you all come up with 50-75% of marriages have infidelity?

If that's the case, I'd have to be led to consider the long-term viability of the institution of Marriage.

What is that leads so many to get their needs filled elsewhere?

A small set will always "need" more than one person. Call it a character flaw or personality disorder, they just do. (For the record, these people should NEVER get married.)

But what about the rest?

And, has it always been like this, but the women had to accept it for financial reasons and the men often did accept it because of the stigma of being cockholded?

Or has something changed so much in our society that the Marriage paradigm of the last 200 years doesn't work?

And are we better off now when Marriage is about Love than 300 years ago when Marriage was about safety, provision, and continuing the race, andin the wealthy classes about power and money?

Have we learned to expect too much from Marriage? Do we expect something it cannot deliver in our corporeal, earth-bound condition?

If anyone has the answers, please let me know.

Sorry if this is totally off the topic, LH. And, please, my questions are not personal in any way shape or form. They are looking not at an individual marriage but at the big picture.

Where did you all come up with 50-75% of marriages have infidelity?
Pretty much everything available has these numbers.
50-66+ percent of married men and 33-50 percent of married women have had an affair.

http://www.dearpeggy.com/statistics.html

Also, only something like only 20% of marriages with affairs will end in divorce because of the affair.

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Thanks, Chris.

Now, what do you suppose that last statistic means?

If only 20% of marriages which suffered infidelity end up in divorce...?

Does it mean that MC's are doing a better job at helping couples recover? That spouses are able to recover on their own? That perhaps infidelity isn't the horrible kiss of death we've all been taught?

I guess I'm just wondering... According to the numbers you've given, only 14% of marriages end because of infidelity. But, if an affair is the very worst thing one spouse can do to another, why is that number so low? Why would only 20% of the marriages end?

Something seems off there.