My question is:

Can a person have genuinely good character and yet make a choice that would normally violate their values? Or does that mean than the values were actually only ideals and not really values?

Those of you who've read the recent dating threads may know where I'm going/coming from with this.

See, I am involved with someone and my D is not yet final. (It would be if the lawyers would stop taking vacations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) I already know where most of you stand on this, so I am certainly not seeking justification. And I already know that at the time I made the initial choice to become involved, it was influenced by wrong reasons - loneliness, emptiness, giving up, being weak and vulnerable. But I am not those things anymore and now I AM in this relationship and I love the person very much. I have asked myself in the past if I should end things till the D is over, but then that seems so pointless to me. I don't want to let go of this person that I love - they have been such a strength for me and I have gotten used to meeting ENs and having them met back - that would be hard to give up. Even though it was wrong to get involved when I did, I am now extremely attached.

Obviously, you all can see the pull on me. I have always been the good girl, the strong one. I was strong for so long. Then I just got so WEAK. I feel horrible when I read the posts here about dating. I feel like you are all so strong, what is wrong with ME?

The only thing that bothers me is the principle of it, the technicality that I am still technically married (ouch). It bothers me to know I am violating that. Besides that, I have no issues with the relationship itself. I have never been in such a healthy relationship in my life (please don't scoff at that, despite the circumstances, it is true). As far as STBXWH, he knows about it and he couldn't care less - he is still trailing after OW like a lost puppy dog.
So that brings us back to the original questions. Am I a bad person? Would you all put me in the same category as my STBXWH? I have read things like that written to other posters, and it kills me. Does God still love me even though I'm unwilling to do "the right thing"? I can't believe I just asked that question. I know nothing I can do could change God's love for me.

I just want to be a good person. I am actually starting to really love life and who I am/ who I am becoming. I have gone back to school full-time after being a SAHM for the past 5 years and I have my own dreams and goals not relating solely to my family for the first time in my life. I have started working out again regularly. And I am with a caring, loving, sensitive, wonderful man. Yet deep down, I feel guilty, especially when I come here.

Is everything I am as a person riding on whether I am dating before my divorce is final? Be gentle with me...

fhl04,
I started to do a long response here but decided against it. I did pretty much the same thing you are doing and got slammed some for admitting it so you might as well get ready. Looks to me like your marriage is over except for the paperwork and you are moving on with your life. That is okay. It does not make you a bad person. My only advice would be to take it slow and careful, be sure of what you are getting into before you get too involved. Listen to what the ones that seem to be attacking you have to say, they have good intentions and will make some valid points worth considering.

Faith,
I know exactly how you feel; my situation is a little the opposite in that I got involved with a man whose divorce was not final although he had not seen the ex wife in 4 years and she lived in another state. For reasons of money, procrastination and uncooperativeness; the divorce had never been finalized. That was very difficult for me, as technically he was a MARRIED man. I too thought of breaking it off until he finalized the divorce, but it also seemed pointless as he had no relationship, children, or financial ties to her. I did back off on the intensity of our relationship until the divorce was final....we did more "friend" things, than "couple things"......but now it is such a relief that he is actually divorced.

I knew you'd be nice to me Jeff, since I've watched you get slammed so many times! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Nice of me to come to your aid, huh? Well, you see hoe conflicted I am, so you can forgive me, I hope. Actually, the problem is that I DO listen to what they say, and that is what makes me feel guilty!

Anna, thanks for sharing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

faithhopelove04

I've been considering this for a while FHL. My answers (and personal decision) may not be popular with you; but please bear with me.

Can a person have genuinely good character and yet make a choice that would normally violate their values? Or does that mean than the values were actually only ideals and not really values?

Character is always lost when a value is sacrificed for the perception of a better opportunity.

See, I am involved with someone and my D is not yet final. (It would be if the lawyers would stop taking vacations. )

People with integrity do what they say they are going to do. Others have excuses.

Even though it was wrong to get involved when I did, I am now extremely attached.

Do you have any idea how many people use that line to justify having an affair?

Obviously, you all can see the pull on me. I have always been the good girl, the strong one. I was strong for so long. Then I just got so WEAK. I feel horrible when I read the posts here about dating. I feel like you are all so strong, what is wrong with ME?

Moral courage and character go hand in hand .... a person of real character is consistently courageous, being instilled with a basic integrity and a firm sense of principle

The only thing that bothers me is the principle of it, the technicality that I am still technically married (ouch). It bothers me to know I am violating that.

Wisdom is knowing what to do next; virtue is doing it.

I just want to be a good person. I am actually starting to really love life and who I am/ who I am becoming.

To know what is right and not do it is the worst weakness in the world.

Is everything I am as a person riding on whether I am dating before my divorce is final?

People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built. Eleanor Roosevelt

All but one of these are quotes from people much wiser than I will ever be. You are "only" 24. Your D will be completed within a few months, no doubt. Your new person will absolutely understand your reasons for wanting to cool down and wait for D; if he truly cares for you! It will be a non-issue for him-I guarantee it. Your children, Grandchildren (and yourself) will honor you for making the "right" decision as you know it. Please, do not allow a tiny bit of time affect your character! You will be better for it.

When all is said and done, the only thing you'll have left is your character. Vince Gill

Good Luck, Be Strong!

FR

James 3: 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Show by your good life that your works are done with gentleness born of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be boastful and false to the truth. 15Such wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish. 16For where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will also be disorder and wickedness of every kind. 17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. 18And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.


James 4: 4 Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, ‘God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us’? 6But he gives all the more grace; therefore it says, ‘God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.’ 7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Lament and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

I TOTALLY agree with Fishracer's post. Great advice.

Let me also add:

<strong> So that brings us back to the original questions. Am I a bad person? </strong>

No, you've just made a bad choice.

<strong>Would you all put me in the same category as my STBXWH? </strong>

Unfortunately, yes. I can almost guarantee you that most wayward spouses feel exactly the same way...that their marriage was already "over."

<strong>I have read things like that written to other posters, and it kills me. </strong>

Have you asked yourself WHY it kills you? What is your answer and are you okay with it?

<strong>Does God still love me even though I'm unwilling to do "the right thing"? </strong>

Yes, God still loves you, but He's grieved at what you are doing and you attitude towards it (unwillingness).

<strong>I just want to be a good person. </strong>

There are LOTS of good people out there; question is: do you want to do what's right in the eyes of the Lord OR be a "good person?"

<strong>Yet deep down, I feel guilty, especially when I come here.</strong>

Well, maybe you should listen to your deep down feelings....I think you already know the answer, regardless of if you come here or not. I believe that God often speaks to us in that deep down, still small voice; most people don't listen or want to hear what He has to say.

<strong>Is everything I am as a person riding on whether I am dating before my divorce is final? Be gentle with me... </strong>

Of course not. You will just become the type of person who "believes" certain things, but doesn't really do them. There's lots of people who do this.

I've always loved this line: If you find you haven't made the right choice, then go and make the choice right.

The choice is up to you as to what kind of person you want to be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
<strong> it was influenced by wrong reasons - loneliness, emptiness, giving up, being weak and vulnerable.

Then I just got so WEAK. I feel horrible when I read the posts here about dating. I feel like you are all so strong, what is wrong with ME?

The only thing that bothers me is the principle of it,

It bothers me to know I am violating that.

I have read things like that written to other posters, and it kills me. Does God still love me even though I'm unwilling to do "the right thing"?

I just want to be a good person. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What the Bible Says About ... Keeping a Good Conscience

by Betty Miller

Song of Solomon 2:15 says, "Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes."

Foxes sometimes in search of food would enter into the grape orchards and devour the grapes and spoil the crop. However, the little foxes were too small to reach the grape bunches so they would chew on the vines and it would kill the whole vine. Instead of the farmer just losing his crop, he would lose his vine which was more disastrous. Spiritually some things we do or allow that we might think are little or insignificant can also be disastrous for us.

Every man is born with a conscience. It is a gift of God to mankind. However, man can quench his conscience by continually ignoring its voice over a period of time. The result is that his heart becomes hardened and seared so that it no longer speaks to him. How does this happen? Little by little. Just as the "little foxes" spoil the vines, so it happens with men ignoring the voice of their consciences over little things, then bigger things, then nothing evil bothers them at all.

Webster's New World Dictionary defines the conscience as: "a knowledge or sense of right and wrong, with a compulsion to do right; moral judgement that opposes the violation of a previously recognized ethical principle and that leads to feelings of guilt."

God provided a conscience even in unregenerate men to point them toward His principles and ways. All of us, before we are saved would be totally depraved if it were not for this provision of God by His grace. However, the longer people live in sin and carnality, the less the true inward conscience has any authority in their lives. Most of the time, particularly in today's culture, we have developed "false" consciences. These are "programs" in our minds, not our spirits, as to what is right and wrong, and these things (evolution, secularism, humanism, situational ethics, and traditions and doctrines of religious thinking) control what we think is moral and ethical. The world's thinking overrides and drowns out the inner voice of the true conscience that God put within us.

Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works."

Because of the world's ungodly influences, it is very important for a Christian to allow His conscience to be "healed," or renewed, to reflect God's standards which we find in the Bible. That is why Christians cannot be guided by their consciences in most cases. It is much safer to be guided by the Word of God and by witnesses and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Today we are shocked by the evil acts of men who perform ghastly deeds and show no remorse whatsoever. We ask, "How can they do such things?" When the conscience is seared -- burned out by constantly going against its nudgings -- then men become like animals in their behavior. The Bible speaks of this in the following verses.

1 Timothy 4:1-2: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron."

This also happened in ancient times, according to Paul's letter to the church at Rome (Romans 1). After a certain period of time, God will give someone with a seared or evil conscience "over to a reprobate mind." That means the mind cannot be renewed, because the person has for so long chosen self-ways (which really are Satan's ways) over God's that it is not possible for them to change. This should be a warning for all who persist in sin.

Romans 1:28-32: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

When we give our lives to the Lord, He begins a work in our hearts and minds and brings healing and enlightenment to the conscience. When a Christian's conscience is renewed, it will not condemn them. When a Christian's mind is renewed, it will not think carnal, self-centered thoughts. When a Christian's emotions are renewed, they will no longer be negative. When a Christian's will is renewed and submitted to God, he will no longer choose against God's ways.

This happens on the positive just the way it does on the negative side. Our little choices to obey God and live by His Word day by day will eventually bring the changes in our lives that will cause us to be more like our Lord. While on the other side, those choices to ignore the conscience and go ahead and disobey God will bring about a hardened and unrepentant heart. We are warned against allowing this to happen. Do not allow this "little fox" of small disobedience choices to gradually harden your heart.

Hebrews 3:13-17: "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?"

Would you all put me in the same category as my STBXWH?
Unfortunately, yes. I can almost guarantee you that most wayward spouses feel exactly the same way...that their marriage was already "over."

I know exactly where you all are coming from, and this is the only statement I'm not sure I agree with. Most WS's, especially mine that justify their affair by saying their M was already "over" are taking a real leap there. When mine started all his garbage, I had NO CLUE anything was really wrong because he was a non-communicator and conflict-avoider. I was in what I though was a loving, comitted, trusting marriage. He abused that. When I say my M is "over", I mean STBXWH says he no longer loves me or wants to be with me, he chose OW over me, chose the single life over our family, moved out without telling me, etc, etc. I think that may be like comparing apples and oranges.

Lost Husband, I understand what you are trying to do, and I appreciate your reply. I don't mean this to be combative in any way, or unappreciative. I KNOW. I can find you just about any scripture relating to anything you want, I can probably even quote a lot of them. I guess maybe I have been fooling myself thinking I learned a lot from the four babies I lost, and that I was dealing well with God's intervention or lack thereof in the ordeal I went through with STBXWH. I thought I wasn't angry, I thought I didn't blame him. I thought I didn't feel let down. I think partly I gave up because when I was losing my babies I prayed, prayed, prayed, quoted scripture, wrote God letters, had everyone I knew praying and yet they died. I thought I was over that, that I had come to terms with God's sovereignty, and to the reality of suffering. Then for months on end I did nothing but cry out to God, go to church, seek counsel, pray, pray, pray, read scripture, etc and yet my husband who I dearly loved and used to serve God turned away from both of us - me and God. Maybe that's why I stopped reading the Bible, stopped thinking about scripture, stopped praying much. Maybe I figured, what's the point. I know, to be close to God. But it felt like everytime I drew close to God, I hurt more. I can't explain it. But that's how it was. If I went to church, I would embarrassingly stand there during worship and sob openly. When I spent time in prayer, it semmed everything hurt worse that day. I wanted to just stop feeling, stop hurting. You guys know the feeling - the heart being ripped out of your chest feeling, the wanting to walk out in front of a car feeling.
I needed arms around me, a place to lay head and feel safe and loved. I've heard all my life how you can go to God for that. I tried, but it just wasn't working.
It scares me to death to think about the fact that I am doing something that God isn't pleased with and I am unwilling to stop. I am crying as I sit here writing this.

Mrs. O, you are right that it shouldn't be such a big deal to wait a little while, until things are final.
What would you guys say is appropriate? No contact at all? Talking on the phone? E-mailing?
I mean, no matter what, my heart is going to belong to someone else other than my STBXWH. Is that in itself sinful? I mean, obviously if he was wanting to be with me it would. Should I try to change that if I even could?
I know you guys are frustrated with me. I have been there. I know EXACTLY how you feel. I lead a High School youth group with STBXWH for a couple years. You probably want to beat me over the head. I know one good thing that has come from this, and that is that it has truly humbled me. I know what it's like to be on the other side, to be the one people are frustrated with, the one people quote scriptures to. I am used to being the one who does the quoting.

I do appreciate your responses. It means a lot to me, and it helps to be talking about it. I hope I haven't come across as being defensive, I am just thinking out loud. This has all been building up for a long time.

((((((((((((((((Faith))))))))))))))))))

[QUOTE]Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
<strong>Mrs. O, you are right that it shouldn't be such a big deal to wait a little while, until things are final.

What would you guys say is appropriate? No contact at all? Talking on the phone? E-mailing?</strong>

Yes, all of those things.

<strong>I mean, no matter what, my heart is going to belong to someone else other than my STBXWH. Is that in itself sinful?</strong>

If you are still married...then I would say it is.

<strong> I mean, obviously if he was wanting to be with me it would. Should I try to change that if I even could? </strong>

I don't understand this....is it YOUR choice to end the marriage? If it was, then YES you should try to change that.

<strong>I know you guys are frustrated with me.

You probably want to beat me over the head. </strong>

I'm not...and no, I don't want to beat you over the head.

But I do hope you do the right thing....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong> ((((((((((((((((Faith)))))))))))))))))) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

((((((((((((((((((((((Faith))))))))))))))))))))))

Can you make a choice that goes against your values while at the same time being a good person who maintains her values?

At various times in our lives we are faced with choices in which two of our values are in conflict. We are forced to chose. For example, we all pretty much agree we should protect our children and families. We also agree that we should not kill another human being. What if an evil person comes into your home armed to the gills and attempts to rape your children and wife? You are faced with a choice.

I think anyone who truly equates FH04 with her husband in their hearts must be a moral absolutist.
I am not, and I see a world of difference in dating while you are married and dating when your divorce is going on, especially a divorce which drags out for years. In FHL04’s case both parties have agreed that the marriage is done, finished. They are simply negotiating the contract that ends the marriage. (I wonder what would happen if we all spent as much time negotiating the marriage contract before signing it as we did the divorce contract?)

I tell you what, maybe some folks would be happier if you POJA’d the new relationship with your STBX. After all, you are still married, therefore, you should follow POJA, right? Oh, and while you’re at it, make sure you avoid LBs and meet his needs, because you are still married, aren’t you? And you might want to fork over half your income to him, after all he’s still your husband.

If the ban on dating applies while divorcing, then so should all the other rules and vows of marriage up to the point the divorce decree is granted.

Maybe some of us willing to label FLH04 as an adulteress should think about what we’d have to do if we were to live by that code.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]</small>

Thank you for the cyber-hug. Tears are now streaming down my face. It's amazing that a hug can actually reach through the computer.

I just don't know if I'm strong enough. I know I need to get my strength from God, but I don't know how, it doesn't seem to happen.

This is the most I've cried in a long time about something like this. I cried so much for so long....It felt SO good to be happy, to not cry, to laugh, to have someone be there for me - someone who cares about my day, every little detail of my life, my feelings.

It's ironic. First STBXWH caused me so much pain by WANTING to divorce me, now WANTING the divorce to be over is causing me pain. It just is horrible how much limbo we have to go through, how much we have to put our lives on hold because of their selfishness.

I literally feel sick to my stomach right now - will this pain ever end?

Faith, It will end. It will be okay.

The Divine has a way of turning all to good even though we may not get a chance to see it right now.

PS: There are a lot of reasons besides the "adultery" one which would suggest it's not a good idea to date while you're divorcing.

I was only arguing that you can chose to date in the divorce process and in some situations, still be moral.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]</small>

OK, I was crying, and now, greengables, you have me laughing out loud. Thanks for the laugh. And thankyou for not equating my actions w/ STBXWH's. It's funny what you said about POJA'ing the new relationship. In essence, we have actually done that! Sick, but true. He knows about it, and is fine with it. Too bad he didn't follow POJA in his sick, obsessive relationship with a married and not planning on divorcing woman. You are right, I was thinking maybe I should try to meet his EN's since we are still "married". Especially the need for SF. Actually, you know what is so SICK is that he used me for SF all the while knowing he had already passed his imaginary deadline and he was leaving me (too bad he was LYING to me, telling me everything was fine). He had me doing things I felt uncomfortable doing, he even knew I was in pain at times, yet didn't care. This was AFTER his deadline, which I didn't even know existed. Somehow it seems more sick and degrading to me to be in a relationship like that than in the kind of relationship I'm in now. At least the person I'm with now WANTS to be with me, and isn't just using me and then throwing me out with the garbage.

Mrs O - I think you misunderstood me. I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. No, it was not my choice to end the M. What I meant was, IF he was still wanting to be with me, then I would be wrong for allowing my heart to be someone else's. And the next sentence meant should i try to change the fact that my heart is someone else, and if so, what's the point in the long run as far as what was our "marriage" goes.
What did you mean by "all of these things"?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
<strong> And thankyou for not equating my actions w/ STBXWH's. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just to clarify: I'm not saying that your MOTIVE was the same as your STBXWH's....just your actions...in a relationship with another man while still married.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What did you mean by "all of these things"? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
<strong>What would you guys say is appropriate? No contact at all? Talking on the phone? E-mailing?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I meant, yes, you should have no contact. No talking on the phone. No emailing.

I realize this would be hard for you. Believe me, I do. But it's still YOU who has to determine what kind of person you are and want to be.

The fact is: You are still married.

There can be (and are) TONS of other legitimate reasons why you shouldn't be dating right now, but the REAL issue is....you are still married.

That's just the bottom line.

So, if you think it's okay for a married person to date, email or call another person (of the opposite sex) outside of the marriage, that is your decision and that is the kind of person you choose to be.

I don't mean for this to be harsh. But sometimes the truth is just that....plain and simple. It's really not complicated.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Ms.O ]</small>

Faith, Glad you're laughing.

I can understand too about your issues with God. I remember how angry my close friend was when her baby died. Her mother had had some order of pink nuns praying for the baby, a bunch of priests plus all the rest of us, and he still died. She was FURIOUS, mostly at the nuns.

My theory about crises of faith is that they are an essential part of spiritual growth. Each of us needs to know what we hold to be true and why. And that truth needs to marry with our experience of ourselves and our world.

So far, I've ended up believing in the Holy Sacrifice and the Resurrection and that all religions are true religions. And that the Divine Spirit lives within each and every one of us. That's as far as I've gotten.

Hugs to you.

greengables, it's funny, I am taking a Religion and Contemporary Society class this semester and we just had a speaker on the Baha'i Faith. i don't know if you're familiar with it but your beliefs sound very similar. I whole-heartedly disagree with it, no offense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But I have learned so much through some horrible experiences, and I have become a MUCH more accepting person than I used to be. It used to kill me to sit and listen to someone talk about things I didn't believe or agree with. I am learning to appreciate people's differences, and at least hear them out without responding in a judgmental, self-righteous way. What I think is so cool about you is that at least you THINK about your belief system. In my life, I have known so many people who do not THINK at all, they are like puppets, or parrots. They cannot really answer WHY they believe what they believe. And once you start taking them through to the logical conclusion of where a certain belief would bring them, it often makes no sense, but they refuse to see it....Sorry, tangent there.

Mrs. O, I am not the " kind of person that would date while still married", maybe I am the kind of person who would date while separated, and I do think there is at least some difference. I also see a difference though between a separation where you're not sure what's going to happen and a separation in which you are literally in the middle of a divorce. Then again, maybe I am just that kind of person , in which case, maybe I ought to just be who I am....I'm sorry, I am just emotional right now. Being humbled is not fun.

fhl04,
How you holding up? Sounded better after GG's insight. I've been a little surprised at where some of the smacks have come from and there's a couple of heavy hitters that haven't jumped in yet. Keep your chin up.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Most WS's, especially mine that justify their affair by saying their M was already "over" are taking a real leap there. When mine started all his garbage, I had NO CLUE anything was really wrong because he was a non-communicator and conflict-avoider. I was in what I though was a loving, comitted, trusting marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My situation was very similar. I had no clue we had a problem until my W walked into my office and told me she had moved out, she wasn't happy and she wanted us to get a divorce. My first question was if there was someone else and she denied that there was. My attorney told me to do some digging and I found out that not only was there someone else, he wasn't the first. WW still denied. Both of them. She admitted the current OM only after I caught her at his house. She admitted the first (that I know of of) only after she saw my witness list at depositions and knew that 2 mutual friends were going to testify she had told them about it, she was busted and she knew better than to lie under oath. The only time she called me since this started was the next night after depositions, she called to apologize about the first OM. Her apology was "because you found out, I never wanted that to happen.". My marriage had been over for 11 years and I hadn't known it. I had been living with and had 2 children with a fantasy. When I started "seeing" someone else, my marriage was over, my WW and I both knew it. The last thing she said to me when she told she had moved out was "find you an internet bimbo and be happy.". She couldn't have cared less if I was with someone else. I felt no guilt about my adultery then and I feel none about it now. Like your case, the marriage was over, the paperwork just wasn't completed yet and the guy in the black robe hadn't tapped his little gavel. WxW and I didn't get married in a courtroom and it didn't take a court proceeding to end it, except for the legality. Technically you and I have committed adultery. It in no way compares with the actions of our WS's. You are not a bad person. See your new significant other, get some ENs met, you deserve it.

For the Holier than Thou crowd, go ahead and throw stones, I have my armor on.