WxW brought our eldest to my office this a.m. He's having an allergic reaction to a wasp sting and been to the Dr. and didn't need to go back to school. It's my weekend and I could go ahead and take him so she brought him to me. Anyway, we were standing in the lobby and she was telling me what the Dr. had said and something that was going on with the youngest at school. She was looking waaaayyy off to the side and not at me as she was talking and almost started to cry. She said she couldn't look at me. I asked her if she wanted to talk about that and she just said no, finished telling about the kids and left. Whats up with that??? Also she has lost a bunch of weight that she didn't have to lose and looks like crap. My only thought is maybe she is feeling some guilt.?!. Could that be it? Could this be a sign of a crack in the fog? I have had a hard time talking to her at all since the first part of July when she admitted her A from 11 years ago for the first time and then called and apologized because I found out. The realization that it happened and the years of lies hurt too much. The apology because she got caught dosen't help anything. So other than the bare essential conversations about the kids we haven't talked at all. Is she starting to show remorse?

deafjeff

Could be remorse, could be resentment.

There is only one person that knows what is bothering her.

I Know that her looking and feeling like this is probably eating you up. It would to me!

Now I have lost track of where you stand with everything in your R with her(So many posters, so little time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

If you are concerned about her, give her a call. Let her know that you are concerned. If she can't look at you, perhaps she can talk to you on the phone.

I know that I have just about accepted D for my future. I Know it is gonna happen. I just can't say that I have accepted it 100%

But I do still care a lot about STBXW. It would kill me to see her as you describe your W. I would have to try to help her feel better. I would have to at least be there to listen to what ever it is that is eating away at her.

I know that my W has been much more willing to talk about things on the phone than face to face.

If It were me, I would call her and tell her I was concerned about her because she seemed upset about something.

JM2C

WIWH

Hey WIWH, how are you doing?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I Know that her looking and feeling like this is probably eating you up. It would to me!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really. You're a biigger man than I, all it does is make me curious as to whats going on with her and even a little glad that maybe she has started to realize what a mistake she made.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I have lost track of where you stand with everything in your R with her </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our Dv was final August 2nd of this year. She got custody and I get to pay her 1/4th of my paycheck to see my kids 2 days out of 14.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you are concerned about her, give her a call. Let her know that you are concerned. If she can't look at you, perhaps she can talk to you on the phone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is all I can do to put on the appearance of being civil when we have to have any kind of dialog about the children. I'm not willing to discuss anything else at this time on the phone or otherwise. If the day ever comes when we can sit down and she can tell me the TRUTH, and answer my questions, then I feel like I can start putting that part of our relationship behind me. I don't lie and can not tolerate being lied to and I'm one of those that thinks he needs to know evreything. Every little nitty gritty detail. Other than what she is doing to my children, I have no concern for her now or her future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, we were standing in the lobby and she was telling me what the Dr. had said and something that was going on with the youngest at school. She was looking waaaayyy off to the side and not at me as she was talking and almost started to cry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well...my first take on this is what's up with your son? What does she know about YOUR son that she's not telling you? I didn't think it was anything about you or her, but something with your child. (Call it the mom inside of me...dunno...think you should be asking her). "Gina/Gail/Susie, you were telling me that something was going on with "___" at school and then you looked off like you were going to cry. What do I need to know about this?"

Elan, thanks for your response. Thats a take I didn't have and is something to consider. Mine was guilt but I obviously don't always know whats going on.

This is happening right now by email!!! The names have been changed to protect the guilty:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff,
I know why I was having trouble looking you in the eye the other day.
I feel badly, no I feel very badly, for how things went between us. I apologize for my part of letting things go. Please someday accept my apology.

WxW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My response:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I kind of suspected that but I obviously have not known what was going on with you for a long time. I know I played a role in how things went before you moved out and I have apologized to you for that. I don't think I can do what you are asking until we can sit down and you can tell me the truth, all of it,and honestly answer the questions that I have.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Her response:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am afraid to do that because I believe that you would go to the boys with anything that I tell you. And I know that you don't trust me, but now I don't trust you either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My response:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't go to the boys with anything. If they ask, I tell them the truth. What did I ever do to make you not trust me?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The plot thickens! Am I handling this okay?

Is she looking for some assurance that you aren't going to tell them every sorted detail?

I don't think you'd do that anyway, but that seems to be a stumbling block.

Good dialog, though. Don't get defensive.

Manly Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

I'm glad you're here LH. She is the one that told them about OM, now when they ask me I answer with appropriate honesty with their age taken into consideration. I really respect and appreciate your opinion and input.

Now add her response:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some things it is not appropriate for the boys to know. They are to think that their parents are good people. Maybe people who make mistakes, but nothing less than good people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my response:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have never suggested to them that you are less than a good person. I "covered" things for you early on in this ordeal, I don't feel like I should have to do that so much anymore. What did I ever do to make you not trust me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">her response:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I disagree. I believe that you have painted a bad picture of me to them. You might want to go back and revisit that with them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my response:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't see how being honest with them when they ask questions is painting a bad picture of you. I answer their questions honestly if they ask about you or me. What did I ever do to make you not trust me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">her reponse:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I initiated this conversation to offer an apology. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my response:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And I told you what I need to be able to accept your apology. After being together for 22 years, best friends, 17 years as husband and wife, good times and bad I don't think honesty is too much to ask. When you can do that, I can accept your appology. I'm ready when you are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next?

((Jeff))

Jeff I encourage you to slow down and thoroughly think about your responses before you send them. When caught up in the situation it’s hard to see what is visible from the outside. You know I truly believe she’s making an honest attempt to make some much needed amends but she feels too many strings are attached and she feels that you are going on the offense/defense rather than an equal playing field.

HE SAID “””I have never suggested to them that you are less than a good person. I "covered" things for you early on in this ordeal, I don't feel like I should have to do that so much anymore. What did I ever do to make you not trust me?”””

A tad bit defensive in the 1st sentence and I suggest never using the word never. Then you end with the question that to me seeks justification, something you don’t need. This puts her in a position to defend her point of view and her feelings. Just like yours, her feelings are hers and they should be validated rather than questions.

SHE SAID “””Well, I disagree. I believe that you have painted a bad picture of me to them. You might want to go back and revisit that with them.”””

Honestly, the conversation is now over. She feels challenged and the need to react to the opposition.

HE SAID “””I don't see how being honest with them when they ask questions is painting a bad picture of you. I answer their questions honestly if they ask about you or me. What did I ever do to make you not trust me?”””

The 1st sentence totally squashes her feelings, plus I must add that honesty in her eyes and your eyes is two different things. You’re different people and therefore see things differently. But really, like I said the conversation is over.

SHE SAID “””I initiated this conversation to offer an apology.”””

She is now pretty much totally closed and feels it necessary to withdrawal from competition and simply restate her objective. She doesn’t want to fight.

HE SAID “””And I told you what I need to be able to accept your apology.”””

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff don’t make me go into preacher mode. If any man hold a grudge let him forgive or he shall not be forgiven. She has come to you to simply apologize for wrong doings and you’ve put strings on her apology.

HE SAID“””After being together for 22 years, best friends, 17 years as husband and wife, good times and bad I don't think honesty is too much to ask.”””

That’s your opinion.

“””When you can do that, I can accept your appology. I'm ready when you are.”””

I ask you to search the depths of your heart, you know the place where pride does not rot, and think about that statement. You’ve told her that things are going to be your way or the highway. I am Jeff hear me roar.

“””I'm glad you're here LH.”””

Did you doubt that I would be here Jeff? Just because we don’t see eye to eye doesn’t mean that I don’t care about you brother or have compassion for your situation.

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: LostHusband ]</small>

Jeff,

I agree with LH.

Fact of the matter is, she is making an effort at an appology. Wether the effort is as much as you would like it to be or not, it is an effort.

Accept it for what it is. It is a start that may lead her more into a comfort zone of being able to open up a little more to be able to say more about the things you feel you need to hear.

her response:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I disagree. I believe that you have painted a bad picture of me to them. You might want to go back and revisit that with them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His:

"when they ask me I answer with appropriate honesty with their age taken into consideration." Perhaps in the future I'll pay closer attention because I agree that children should never think badly of their parents.


her reponse:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I initiated this conversation to offer an apology.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His:

I appreciate the apology but you need to understand that it is dificult for me to completely accept right now.

The End!!

No Conditions!!

No Expectations!!

Now of course my answers are fairly generic and don't necessarily fit, but I hope you get the Idea.

WIWH

Thanks LH and WIWH. Both typing fingers work faster than brain. Brain doesn't always function properly.

Trying to email you LH.

My quesyion is, what is your objective in your discussion with her? What do you want from it, what is your goal? Are you wanting to reconcile?
If so, then you did make some mistakes,as pointed out by Bill. And he is right, if you're going to forgive her, forgiveness is not based on any crieria she meets (although it could be made a lot easier!)
However, her objective may be to get you to give her permission to feel better about things, she may be looking for a release from her guilt...
That, you don't need to do, only she can do that. And honesty is a part of her healing too.
I think she may be looking to be let off the hook.

fhl04,
Like I said earlier, I'm one of those that thinks he has to know the whole truth. I don't think I can have proper closure with WxW when I still have unanswered questions. I do NOT want to reconcile. As is the norm, LH is correct. I did have the wrong perspective on forgiveness. I also agree with you that it would be a lot easier if she were to meet my criteria. And I agree with you that she is looking to be let off the hook because I think the guilt is eating her alive. If she wants to square things with me she will have to answer my questions with complete honesty. I don't think the fog has lifted enough for that yet and I realize it may never happen once the fog is gone. If she should have any questions for me I am prepared to do the same. I can forgive without it, can't really get over it without it, will never forget.

Do you realize though, that you come across in your posts like you are wanting to reconcile? At least that's MHO...

I do understand the curiosity, the wanting answers, closure - see my post under "FWHs Gather Here" in the GQ Board, maybe you could even give me some input.

deafjeff

Like I said earlier, I'm one of those that thinks he has to know the whole truth.

I'm the same way and can relate to what you're going through. My WW has acted similarly at times but quickly pulls back into "whatever-land". I believe it's guilt vs. pride on her part! Why not a full and appropriate apology? LH: I hear you brother; just disagree. DJ and WxW still have a relationship due to kids and although no longer man & wife, should show each other utmost respect for the kids sake. If Mom does not feel the need for an appropriate apology for her actions; what is the message being sent to their kids?

One thing to remember. (DeafJeff, this is an experienced assumption on my part, so correct me if I'm wrong); I'll venture a guess that WxW married DJ largely in part because of his convictions about right/wrong, good/bad and so on. Then when her choice of actions became wrong/bad morally or as written in scriptures; she now is not so strong a believer in that conviction. However; I agree with DJ. The apology should be appropriate for the offense! That would be setting a fine example for her kids and also improve the relationship w/DJ. Not a bad exchange for mere words!
JMHO!!!

FR

LH,
I got a response from her this a.m., trying to email you but it isn't working for me.

fhl04:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you realize though, that you come across in your posts like you are wanting to reconcile? At least that's MHO...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then I've been unclear in my message because I a'int wanting to reconcile. And that's MHO.

Fishracer,
Thank you and well put. I think your assumption is correct. I think what WxW is trying to do is keep the kids in the dark. They already know something is wrong, my oldest is starting to despise her because of the constant lies she tells them. They will find out the truth sooner or later. Which is better, that they know now or in 10 years?

ah man! I wish I could have gotten to you sooner Jeff. That was the perfect opportunity to just talk to her. Yes, you have MUCH that you want to get to her. You could have...wew! You could have really opened her up. If she starts talking to you again via email. Try answering her in one sentence responses with questions or open ended comments, i.e. "tell me more...what do you mean? yes, I think I can understand what you are saying..." Stuff like that. She will open up like never before. Don't hit her with what you were hitting her with yet.

Man, your wife seems to be okay compared to my wife. My wife will NEVER apologize or admit her wrong. Your wife is cool. It takes a big person to admit their wrong to the one they have wronged. (there's a quotable quote for somebody. Solon said it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) But yeah, take it slow with her and keep her answering and explaining.

Oh, I never went on the beach trip with ex.

dtia,
I wish you could have gotten to me sooner too. I need all the help I can get. Here's where we left off yesterday:
Me:
And I told you what I need to be able to accept our apology. After being together for 22 years, best friends, 17 years as husband and wife, good times and bad I don't think honesty is too much to ask. When you can do that, I can accept your appology. I'm ready when you are.

WxW:
I can't do that now. I'm sorry, but I believe that you tell the boys too much.

Me:
I only tell the boys what they ask about, sometimes the truth hurts and that goes both ways. I can not justify your actions to them. I could not carry the guilt of years of deception like you have. I guess the more you do it the easier it gets.

WXW:
You never were good at listening to me. I was writing to say that I am sorry.

Me:
Okay. We had commuincation problems. What is it that you are sorry about?

WxW:
I apologize for my part of letting things go.

Me:
Okay. Just so we are on the same page and communicating clearly and because I can interpret that several different ways, what do you mean "letting things go"?

WxW sent this this a.m.:
I apologize for my part of the marriage not working.

I'll take any suggestions, here is one that was sent to me:
"If that is all you can do right now, fine, but one short sentence isn't enough to explain why we are where we are today. I want, and believe I deserve, to have all of my questions answered fully and honestly. As I told you yesterday, when you can give me that, I can accept your apology."
Take out the last sentence and I like it but I get the impression from you clearer minds that it may be too harsh to help serve the purpose of where I want this to go. HELP!

My WxW is cool? I have to disagree. I could go for cold but not cool. But then I was only married to her for 17 years.

Glad you didn't go to the beach.?. Sounded to me like the vacation from he!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by deafjeff:
<strong> "If that is all you can do right now, fine, but one short sentence isn't enough to explain why we are where we are today. I want, and believe I deserve, to have all of my questions answered fully and honestly. As I told you yesterday, when you can give me that, I can accept your apology." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me this statement says “ I’m a little boy and I’m going to pout in the corner until you do things my way. ” And again it says “I am Jeff hear my roar.”

As I mentioned yesterday, I think you have to gradually lead the dialog in the direction you want to go. Something like “WxW I appreciate your apology. I’m still left with a lot of questions. Like when you said “Letting things go”, where did things go and when/how did they go there?”.

Jeff you have to open up the dialog without threats or conditions.

LH, WIWH, Fishracer, DTIA, anybody,
Here is what I am going to send unless somebody stops me.:
Okay. Please don't think that I don't appreciate that. I am assuming you want a better relationship between us for the sake of the children and I would like to have that too. I made mistakes, some I am aware of and have apologized to you for, some I am unaware of because if you did tell me I didn't hear you, and maybe some I wasn't aware of and you didn't tell me. I would like to put it all out in the open, between us, my part and yours. I am prepared to honestly answer any questions you have about me and would like the same from you. I feel that this is necessary to move on. The boys will not hear any of it from me, as far as I am concerned they would not even have to know we talked. One short general sentence does not work for me.