OK, MB-ers; I need some input! I have a meeting next week with our church elders about forming a "marriage-crisis team".

I've done much research and found that most churches offer a very good pre-marriage program, and also a very good post-divorce program; but that very few have a program for troubled marriages other than traditional MC. As we all know; MC works only some of the time and the biggest issue that I had was that 1-hour per week was not adequate for what I was going through. Furthermore; as my WW was also my best-friend, I found that my BF was not available for me during the worst time in my life; because she was the wayward one! Consequently, I had no one to talk to at midnight when I was ready to scream other than our dog and the walls! I'm trying to bridge this gap with informed and perhaps experienced church-members. My thinking is to amke it similar to a sponsor's duty in a 12-step program such as AA.

Here are my questions for you:

1. To WS's: Tell me what might have made a difference (if anything) when you first began your wayward journey.

2. To BS's: I found it so hard not to LB with each new revelation. Would you find it helpful to have "someone else" to vent to, talk to, cry with, laugh with, etc. instead of taking your emotions out on your WS? I'm talking any time 24 hours a day.

3. To All: Offer ideas, input, etc.

Disclaimer: This team will not offer counseling! Our only job is to help get WS's and/or BS's to the point of seeing MC's or to a weekend seminar, class, etc. without doing further emotional damage to each other. So please keep this in mind.

Thanks.

FR

Note: I am also posting this in GQII.

Fishracer,

If nothing else, this is a WONDERFUL idea. I hope it comes to fruition, and that your church elders will see the need for this kind of program.

I have been the BS of a serial cheater, and also had what I consider to be an EA before I recognized it for what it was and ended it. Thus, I have a LOT of thoughts as a BS, and at least a little empathy for the WS!

Let me speak from the WS side first. My exH left our home in Feb. 1999 and spent that whole year living in another state with the OW. He came back home in the end of the year and was a complete jerk to me and the kids, so when he left us during the holidays to go back to the OW, I was SURE that our marriage was over. During the whole year that my exH was away, a fella from work asked me out to lunch EVERY DAY and I kept telling him no. Well during the holidays, when my exH left, I finally said yes and started going to lunch...and we had the beginning of an EA. I was just so amazed that someone found ME interesting and funny and worth spending time! I fell for it.

So as a WS, I would say this is what would have helped me: 1) Some explanation/definitions of how an EA is emotionally distancing from my own spouse and allowing someone else to meet emotional needs. 2) Some tough talk along the lines of "what you're doing is not right" (political correctness is killing us). 3) Some firm but understanding place to talk to someone about not being sure if what I was doing was wrong--and if it was, a place to talk to someone about how to truly repent. 4) A place where I wasn't totally shunned and cast out if I came forward and told the truth about what I had done or was thinking of doing or was struggling with. 5. Sort of a "sponsor" to help me get through the first few weeks of doing the right thing.

Now...speaking as a BS, I have a LOT more to say!! I do not mean this mean, but I think BS's are a sorely overlooked, sadly underserved, DYING bunch of people who need as much help and support from the Church (as the Body of Christ) can offer!!!!! Can ya tell I feel strongly about this???

As a BS, here are some of the things that would have helped me: 1. HELP!!!!!! My entire world fell apart and I had no one to turn to. My financial support left with my exH. I had two kids and no way to feed them or provide a home for them. I needed immediate crisis intervention. 2. My emotional world also fell apart. In all honesty, there were times when I gave more than a moment's thought to dying, because the pain was so intense. Well, I believe there should have been friends, church folks, or SOMEONE right there with me all night on some of those first nights. 3. My spiritual world also fell apart. I beleive there needs to be a class or a sponsor or something that allows BS's to suffer the throws of their spiritual crisis and question God without being judged or spurned for screaming out to God.

In summary, Fishracer, as a newbie BS, I was a disasterous mess. I think that there needs to be an "infidelity crisis team" on call 24/7--like a hotline--to immediately go and be with a BS who's WS just left or who just found out...to help them find the resources to not be homeless, to find food, etc. The crisis team needs to be a fairly mature, godly person who can help the newbie BS question God and their beliefs--as well as be their friend and confidant.

Next, as a BS who is further into the infidelity arena, I think there are different needs that need to be met. There needs to be just plain education on what emotional needs are and lovebusters are. There needs to be guides who will help people get through the recovery process (and it is fairly well itemized here on MB). I beleive these people might be mentors or guides. Further, there needs to be another group of people who support and encourage BS's who either NEED to divorce due to abuse (or similar issues) or who are GOING TO BE divorced even if it's against what they want. Often a BS needs to be divorced because staying would put them in severe physical or emotional/mental damage--or they may not want to be divorced but their WS is determined to do it. These BS's need to be supported and encouraged in a whole different way from the recovering BS/WS's. These BS's need to be educated on how to have victory over the circumstances...and how to experience the serenity of God...and how to reconnect to being a beloved child of God! Somehow, these BS's need to be re-affirmed as a valuable and restored, even though they HAD to leave their marriage or their WS was determined to leave their marriage.

So, that's my two cents! You've taken on quite a project there Fishracer! May God bless your efforts.


CJ

<small>[ September 21, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

FaithfulNewCJ

Thank you CJ for the great information. This is exactly what I was looking for; information that I would have no experience with. Please respond to a few more questions.

So as a WS, I would say this is what would have helped me:

1) Some explanation/definitions of how an EA is emotionally distancing from my own spouse and allowing someone else to meet emotional needs.

Please look at the link to (the late) Shirley Glass' website. SG had tremendous foresight about the potential damage of EA's. Please read the quiz and see if it answers your question #1.
http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php

2) Some tough talk along the lines of "what you're doing is not right" (political correctness is killing us).

My experience proved that the "tough-talk" was not well-received by WW if coming from me. Who might you have listened to? Please expound on "tough-talk".

3) Some firm but understanding place to talk to someone about not being sure if what I was doing was wrong--and if it was, a place to talk to someone about how to truly repent.

This is what I am trying to provide. My thoughts are to either meet at the church or at their home (for comfort-reasons.) Where would you have been most comfortable talking about this?

4) A place where I wasn't totally shunned and cast out if I came forward and told the truth about what I had done or was thinking of doing or was struggling with.

I am sorry that you went through all of this! However; I felt the same way until our preacher stepped up and offered his unconditional-friendship. Do you attend a church? What type of place would have worked for you & why?

5. Sort of a "sponsor" to help me get through the first few weeks of doing the right thing.

This is where we're headed, at least initially. To be a listener and voice of reason in an otherwise emotionally unstable situation.

Now...speaking as a BS, I have a LOT more to say!! I do not mean this mean, but I think BS's are a sorely overlooked, sadly underserved, DYING bunch of people who need as much help and support from the Church (as the Body of Christ) can offer!!!!! Can ya tell I feel strongly about this???

I feel you loud and clear! And I can relate. You are correct; particularly as the WS gets further into the fog and becomes more irrational. Friends typically don't understand the fog and believe the lies & deceit from our WS as they are typically honest people, which makes BS's all the more confused and frustrated!

As a BS, here are some of the things that would have helped me:

1. HELP!!!!!! My entire world fell apart and I had no one to turn to. My financial support left with my exH. I had two kids and no way to feed them or provide a home for them. I needed immediate crisis intervention.

I had not considered this until now. What a terrible place to be in. Our church could help in this area!

2. My emotional world also fell apart. In all honesty, there were times when I gave more than a moment's thought to dying, because the pain was so intense. Well, I believe there should have been friends, church folks, or SOMEONE right there with me all night on some of those first nights.

Yes; again, I feel ya! The pain and "type" of pain is indescribable. Only those who have experienced it can understand it. Again; filling this void is part of my goal!

3. My spiritual world also fell apart. I beleive there needs to be a class or a sponsor or something that allows BS's to suffer the throws of their spiritual crisis and question God without being judged or spurned for screaming out to God.

I also lashed out at God. It's natural and I feel he understands that. Our church is very good in dealing with those who lash out at God for various life-reasons. You might agree that once you get through the initial misery; you realize that it wasn't God at fault. But yes, it would have been good for you to be able to voice what you were feeling w/o worry of negative reaction. This is duly noted for our "team".

In summary, Fishracer, as a newbie BS, I was a disasterous mess. I think that there needs to be an "infidelity crisis team" on call 24/7--like a hotline--to immediately go and be with a BS who's WS just left or who just found out...to help them find the resources to not be homeless, to find food, etc. The crisis team needs to be a fairly mature, godly person who can help the newbie BS question God and their beliefs--as well as be their friend and confidant.

You just perfectly summarized my goal for this team.

Next, as a BS who is further into the infidelity arena, I think there are different needs that need to be met. There needs to be just plain education on what emotional needs are and lovebusters are. There needs to be guides who will help people get through the recovery process (and it is fairly well itemized here on MB). I beleive these people might be mentors or guides.

All of this is already included in my draft outline.

Further, there needs to be another group of people who support and encourage BS's who either NEED to divorce due to abuse (or similar issues) or who are GOING TO BE divorced even if it's against what they want. Often a BS needs to be divorced because staying would put them in severe physical or emotional/mental damage--or they may not want to be divorced but their WS is determined to do it. These BS's need to be supported and encouraged in a whole different way from the recovering BS/WS's. These BS's need to be educated on how to have victory over the circumstances...and how to experience the serenity of God...and how to reconnect to being a beloved child of God! Somehow, these BS's need to be re-affirmed as a valuable and restored, even though they HAD to leave their marriage or their WS was determined to leave their marriage.

Yes; I agree. This is actually an area for our counselors to handle and I must say that our church is strong in this area.

CJ: I am happy that you replied to this. You were on my list of hopeful responders and you didn't let me down. I will keep you informed of how it goes. As with recovery; I am only anticipating baby-steps with the elders. Churches have typically shied away from the highly emotional issue of infidelity but are rethinking that as adultery is decimating all congregations. My initial goal is a 10% success rate for keeping marriages together. As time goes by; perhaps this will get better. Thanks again.

FR

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fishracer:
[QB] ...Please respond to a few more questions.

Please look at the link to (the late) Shirley Glass' website. SG had tremendous foresight about the potential damage of EA's. Please read the quiz and see if it answers your question #1.
http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php

I am familiar with Shirley Glass' work and website, and I think her book "Not Just Friends" is AWESOME because of course every WS starts by claiming they are "just friends." I think her quiz or some form of it would be an appropriate way for a person considering a "friendship" to see it for what it is and identify it for what it is. Of course, I am assuming a WS at the beginning stages with a still fairly soft heart.

My experience proved that the "tough-talk" was not well-received by WW if coming from me. Who might you have listened to? Please expound on "tough-talk".

I agree--tough talk from the spouse is rarely if ever received because the WS does not want to hear it. They know that what they are doing is wrong, but to have their spouse point it out to them, they then feel the need to defend their position and I actually think that makes their resolve even stronger.

I meant that there needs to be tough talk from the others in the WS's life: parents, siblings, and in this case, pastors or elders in their church. Believe it or not, I heard of one case where the WW and OM were appointed ministers of the singles group because they worked so well with singles. Everyone at church knew she was married to someone else and that they were having an affair, but no one, including the pastor, had the guts to confront and expose and express that it was NOT OKAY!

Thus, to me, tough talk would be when a pastor, elder, or member of your group finds out about a church member having an affair...not only do they not condone it, they go to the WS and say, "What you are doing is NOT OKAY and not the way a believer behaves. We will help you return to your spouse and family, and support you in your struggles to honor your marriage vows, but we will not support you in your pursuit of an extra-marital sexual lifestyle." At that point, the concepts about NC and meeting ENs etc. could be introduced and help the WS get back to the BS.

A word of warning: there are going to be those WS's that are just hard hearted and will not stop their affair no matter what. Even if they are shunned from their home church and excommunicated, etc. they will abandon their families. In my opinion, the Church as a body still has a responsibility to lovingly tell them that what they are choosing is wrong and that any day they decide to get right with God and their spouse, they are welcomed back. Make sense?

This is what I am trying to provide. My thoughts are to either meet at the church or at their home (for comfort-reasons.) Where would you have been most comfortable talking about this?

Hmmm--home is more comfortable but I have a concern about associating a room in their home with having the "church folks" come over. Did you ever notice that very few people do counseling in their home? That's because the painful stuff that occurs in counseling can then be associated with that room of the house. I suggest possibly having them come to YOUR house or meeting at a coffee shop--some place comfy and casual, but not their own home.

I am sorry that you went through all of this! However; I felt the same way until our preacher stepped up and offered his unconditional-friendship. Do you attend a church? What type of place would have worked for you & why?

I do attend services at a house of worship, but many of the places I have attended (past and present) have a resource for married people and a resource for divorced people/single people (because they couldn't ignore divorce any longer) but no resource for limbo people (separated, affairs, etc.) and the divorced/single stuff is usually either aimed at YOUNG singles strongly encouraging marriage, or divorced people communicated that being in a healthy relationship is where they want to be. Does that make sense? I would like to see a place where a BS can learn spiritual things, be a little social (in other words, not cut-off from the rest of all humanity--haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) and be restored as a person living alone and dedicated to singlemindedly serving God.

This is where we're headed, at least initially. To be a listener and voice of reason in an otherwise emotionally unstable situation.

EXCELLENT!!!

I feel you loud and clear! And I can relate. You are correct; particularly as the WS gets further into the fog and becomes more irrational. Friends typically don't understand the fog and believe the lies & deceit from our WS as they are typically honest people, which makes BS's all the more confused and frustrated!

Amen to that my brother. This reminds me of my particular passion, and that is to teach pastors, ministers, and lay leaders how to really educate and help an abused spouse. Here's why. The typical/current assumption is that you tell the abused spouse to "just leave" the abusive spouse because it's too dangerous to stay. Then if the abused spouse does not "just leave", they either made the choice to stay and continue being abuse (so don't come running to me) OR the abused spouse is purposely CHOOSING a "wrong" choice. Well, as you and I know, abused spouses stay for a huge variety of reasons, and what they need is not "just leave"!! They need some self-esteem, some assistance in finding food and clothes and shelter, some understanding of what a loving relationship is truly like, etc. LOTS of education.

Same here. I think the current BS/WS assumption is "just leave the cheater" and that's just not so easy! BS's stay because they have vows, a family, a home, maybe a business...and saying "just leave" does not really help. People in general, and congregations and lay leaders in particular, need to be educated on how BS's react and typical WS fog-talk and how an otherwise honest, upright person gets involved in serial lying and sexual affairs!!

I had not considered this until now. What a terrible place to be in. Our church could help in this area!

Yep, they sure could be! Food pantry, clothing drives, birthday and holiday food and presents...the help goes on and on if only church members knew each other and thought of what the other members needed!

Yes; again, I feel ya! The pain and "type" of pain is indescribable. Only those who have experienced it can understand it. Again; filling this void is part of my goal!

EXCELLENT. This is going to be a tough one, because I believe the person who does this role is going to have to be a patient, gentle soul. It might be best if it's someone who's "been there done that got the t-shirt," but I don't think that's a prerequisite. An empathetic person who has had a loss in their life should do just fine. heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I also lashed out at God. It's natural and I feel he understands that. Our church is very good in dealing with those who lash out at God for various life-reasons. You might agree that once you get through the initial misery; you realize that it wasn't God at fault. But yes, it would have been good for you to be able to voice what you were feeling w/o worry of negative reaction. This is duly noted for our "team".

Good, I'm glad. I think people of faith often become angry with God when their spouse has an affair, and I think struggle with "Why did He let this happen? What did I do so terrible that He hurt me like this? Is He even there???" and to have an understanding but mature person there to give them freedom to struggle yet demonstrate that God is not dead--I think it will help a lot.

...I think that there needs to be an "infidelity crisis team" on call 24/7--like a hotline--to immediately go and be with a BS who's WS just left or who just found out...to help them find the resources to not be homeless, to find food, etc. The crisis team needs to be a fairly mature, godly person who can help the newbie BS question God and their beliefs--as well as be their friend and confidant.

You just perfectly summarized my goal for this team.

EXCELLENT!!! You know, I have to admit, I am kind of excited about this!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

...This is actually an area for our counselors to handle and I must say that our church is strong in this area.

I somewhat disagree with you on this one, Fishracer, and here's why. I do not believe that counselors need to help people recover their value as a single or have victory over the circumstances and learn to live in peace. This needs to be taught and demonstrated by people who have gone through it or understand and do it every day. In my opinion, a counselor is there to help people deal with issues, past traumas, distorted thinking that they just can not recover from. A TEACHER on the other hand, is there to educate and demonstrate that a person does not need to be "married" in order to be a vital member of God's Church -OR- to have a truly intimate relationship with God. A TEACHER would show a person how they may feel as if they are in the fire and melting, but the Goldsmith is recrafting them into an even more pure form! An abused spouse probably does need a counselor--but an otherwise unabused BS whose WS just refuses to return to the marriage...the BS is probably in fairly okay mental health and just needs some guidance.

So consider my opinion, alright??

{b]CJ: I am happy that you replied to this. You were on my list of hopeful responders and you didn't let me down. I will keep you informed of how it goes. As with recovery; I am only anticipating baby-steps with the elders. Churches have typically shied away from the highly emotional issue of infidelity but are rethinking that as adultery is decimating all congregations. My initial goal is a 10% success rate for keeping marriages together. As time goes by; perhaps this will get better. Thanks again.[/b]

Well, hey, what do you know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm flattered (a little) that you were hoping I'd reply. YAY for me! Anyway, I think baby-steps is how big things get done--one day at a time--consistency. And Fishracer, I want to request that your reconsider your goal of 10% success rate. I suggest a goal of 90% success rate...90% of the souls who enter the program are successfully RESTORED--whether that be via reconciliation in the marriage or restoration and rededication to god as an individual. Please do not discount those of us who are recovered just because our spouse did not recover!

Thanks! If you have anymore questions or want to bounce some more ideas--let me know!


CJ

You would have to ensure that women went to support women and men support men--

So that more affairs do not start from an opposite sex person going to comfort someone who is need--

you'd need to make sure they are also turning to and trusting God during some of those most difficult times--as that is when they learn to rely more on God--and their relationship with Christ get's stronger when all other outside help is removed--and all you have is God to reach out to--

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CJ: Thank you for the insight once again. I plan to implement all of your input into my preliminary outline for presentation.

Same to you Rosie: I had not thought of women to women, men to men, but you're right. It makes sense! The last thing we would want to happen is something like you are suggesting! And with emotions high; we all know what is possible.

Thanks to both of you.

FR