I have been lurking on this board for a while looking for through others experiences and the advice given and not sure what to do. I apologize in advance as this is a little long…

Our relationship of over 15 years is in serious trouble and my spouse has a (recently) diagnosed mood disorder. We are both plenty angry but she rages (screaming, ranting, swearing sometimes in front of our 2 young children), sometimes uncontrollably, for more than 10 or 15 minutes. We have jointly raged about divorce for over 4 years now, mentioning it in severe fights. I have been no better than her, reflecting and engaging in that same behavior that she did. This has lessened over the last 2 or so years as I began to understand myself and the situation a little better after going through therapy after becoming depressed after I found out that she was mentally ill.

We have tried marriage counseling over about 2 - 3 months in the last 2 years but the counselor was unwilling to acknowledge the mood disorder. I feel that the sessions were like gripe sessions for my wife not counseling, where instead of taking accountability for her part of the problem and looking for joint solutions, she focused all her energy on telling me how I had screwed it up. I know I have a major part to play in all this but her continually reinforcing the blame was mine and not explaining her actions and feelings backed me up against the wall in the sessions and I "dug in". At one point I remember the counselor saying in one of the last session “…oh what a difficult situation…” I surely didn’t feel a strong sense of purpose, direction or structure in the sessions.

After counseling she has continued to see a therapist and a psychiatrist for the mood disorder and has drifted apart from me, planning her own life and activities increasingly separately from me. She admits that she has been primarily staying with me because of the children.

For my part, I have disengaged from the fighting as much as possible because the conflict levels are just too high. But, I have also drifted away from her, losing both trust and confidence in our relationship and in her.

We decided that I should change jobs (another huge fight - she regularly backs away from the commitment we made to move the family near to the new job) The job change was due to the worsening economics of the industry I was in and also the demands of the career. We are in the process of moving.

I read the marriage builders website and realized that the approach of self accountability and truth first was a principle that I apply in all other parts of my life and realized, like a bolt from the blue, that I had been avoiding that in my personal relationship. I also remembered that when we got married we made a lifetime commitment to each other. I want a relationship where we both prioritize our marriage and our commitment to each other over all else.

I reasserted my commitment to my wife last week and told her how I felt and that I was committed to our relationship and that I would do what was necessary to change. Instead of any kind of relief or willingness to admit her part again she raged at me, and then shut down during which she said something to the effect of "maybe too late, not enough" She was so detached and uncommunicative that I thought she was already in the process of divorcing me. She later admitted that she is not but emotionally I think she already has, though she will not admit this either.

I feel incredibly vulnerable. We both want to go to marriage counseling. She has openly said that if she feels that it is not successful she will leave me. I believe that she is not committed to the relationship anymore. She has also told me that she is also not committed to my happiness she is unwilling to make sacrifices which conflict with her interest of an independent life, in specific reference to the policy of mutual agreement and enthusiasm on the website. Right now I also feel that I have much more to lose than she does if she divorces me, and my situation gets much worse over time for career reasons.

There will be some very difficult issues to face during counseling (that’s why we are going) and I don't believe that we will make it through and be able to rebuild our relationship without first openly and completely recommitting to our marriage. I am absolutely prepared to recommit to the marriage unconditionally as we first did, but she is not. She says she feels "pressured" After a brief introductory meeting with our new marriage counselor she told me he supports her position and seems to have a "live & let die" attitude towards the relationship.

What I am worried about is that during counseling she will threaten to divorce me because things aren’t “going well” (whatever that means at the time) and she will be unhappy. I see my alternatives as either letting the divorce happen and be caught in a really bad situation with no job and few financial resources to support her, myself or the children or bending over backwards to make things work with little commitment from her. I also have no family to support me in the US. I would welcome any observations or questions…

Thanks

Mountain

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Mountain ]</small>

Mountain, I too have a spouse with a mental illness (bipolar disorder) and it really does add a whole new dimension to marital problems! In fact, it's been my experience that most of our "problems" are either minute things that he puts far too much emphasis on, or they exist solely in his head and aren't really based on reality. It can be *incredibly* frustrating, hurtful and bewildering to have to always wonder whether what your spouse is saying is based in reality or a symptom of their illness.

I'm not sure what advice to give you, if any... I am fortunate in that we don't have any assets or children or anything else that would become a casualty of our divorce, but I do know that divorce is my only option at this point. I want to be supportive and I want a successful marriage, but my husband is convinced we're wrong for each other. What I've learned is that if only one half of the team wants to make the marriage work, it's going to fail anyway. Both people have to commit to working on the marriage. Your wife may not be able to do that because of her mental illness, but it does not mean that she is not accountable for her actions. And *you*, my friend, must take care of yourself and your needs.

There are others on this board who know much more about Marriage Building than I do (since I pretty much was already in divorce mode by the time I found this site), but those things I mentioned above are the choices I found myself faced with. Everyone's situation is unique, but you're really not alone here.

<small>[ October 02, 2004, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Sarahbellem ]</small>

Having grown up witnessing a mother with significant mental problems, (and having left home at 16 in order to get away from her), I can agree hold heartedly with the Harley's statements that there are some conditions and situations for which the MB principles, effective as they are for most people and situations, won't apply in a useful way. This includes things like addictions, as well as psychiatric conditions. There's not enough real information from your post to draw any conclusions about your wife, though it's obvious the two of you together have some real problems. Determining the true source and reason is important. It sounds like you've made some important progress looking at your own behavior and taking some responsibility for it- and changing it- that's good. Unfortunately, you really can't control your wifes behavior, and efforts to do so will only backfire. You can only put in place boundaries about what you will and won't tolerate, and what the consequences are.

My guess from the things you've said is that things have reached the point where you're going to have to do some hard thinking about what can realistically be accomplished, about what your role in taking things to this point has been, and whether it's possible for you and your wife to heal under the same roof as individuals with IC to the point where MC is worthwhile, or if maybe a temporary seperation would be in your family's best interests.

If your statement of commitment to her and the marriage resulted in an unprovoked bout of rage, then you're dealing with more than MC issues, in my opinion. Either that, or there is so much water under the bridge that any kind of stress ful interaction between you pops the vent valve for her. Nonetheless, venting and raging on either of your part in the way you describe is not a viable way to conduct the marital relationship- I'm sure you're starting to understand that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I am worried about is that during counseling she will threaten to divorce me because things aren’t “going well” (whatever that means at the time) and she will be unhappy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't try to control what she does. Control what you do and say, and be the best person you can be, both for yourself and your children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see my alternatives as either letting the divorce happen and be caught in a really bad situation with no job and few financial resources to support her, myself or the children or bending over backwards to make things work with little commitment from her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think you'll be caught without a job- it sounded from your post that you were moving to be near a new job- this is often an unavoidable part of modern life. Is your wife working, or is she a SAHM? If the latter, and you seperate/divorce, it is probably inevitable that she will have to get a job for herself.

Your description of your wife's behavior sounds like she has moved beyond conflict, and into withdrawal. This is not the point to rely on well meaning forum posters- I'd recommend getting at least a few counseling calls in with the Harleys, if you don't have a good local counselor.

There's a lot of useful material on this site- it can't hurt to study and apply it, but it just may not be enough in your situation- hence, the need for more expert advice.

There are probably fears you have about your situation because of the financial uncertainty. For this reason, you should consult a reliable source about divorce laws and settlements for the state you reside in. There's a lot of bases to cover, but you don't really have any choice in the situation you're in- it's gone that far.

I wish you the best of luck in resolving this and salvaging your marriage, but understand that sometimes that's not really possible, or the best outcome (sticking together come heck or high water) for the children.

Regards,

Jon

Thanks Jon & Sarah for your timely responses. It is a very stressful situation but you have provided me with great points to think about. On the weekend she was able to control the venting (but she admitted later on that she was angry and disturbed at me for a list of things) so we were able to have an outwardly calmer weekend.

Sarah - I agree with your first paragraph whole heartedly. That's my gut read on the situation. My wife has trouble raising and negotiating normal and perceived issues with me and they build up in her head to such an extent that they fuel a huge rage in her. When she rages at me she demands I fix issues. It is hard, when she is demanding and agressive to understand and address issues, and the basis for our separation.

Jon - I agree with your assertion that I have to take responsibility for my actions and be the best I can be. That light went on before I originally came to her after reading the Marriagebuilders website. Regarding the job - we are in the process of moving closer to my new job. My wife (SAHM) originally said this week that she did not want to move and I thought that I would have to give up my new job and move back to save my marriage.

We are going to counselling this weekend with the goal of seeing if there is a path forward. I want to understand what her motivations are for staying in the relationship, what she expects from me and what she is prepared to give. I also don't want the counselling to turn into another gripe session dominated by what I have done to her. I have specifically asked her not to do that.

Thanks for all your help!

Richard

Hello Jon...I've wondered where you've been. Why havn't I heard from you?
Lynn