I didn't want to threadjack DWAD's thread about divorce and reconciliation, but I read your response and because you brought up some things I believe already about God's plans for us, now I'm questioning my own decision again:

You said:

In your case, you and your wife are supposedly believers (and I only say supposedly because I can not comprehend how a believer could justify having an affair and also still claim to be a believer), so I don't think you are released from your vow. God may "allow" a divorce on the grounds of adultery and subsequent mental and emotional abuse--but "allow" does not mean "prefer"!! It means that despite His preference, God might allow it to happen.

Dontwantadivorce, you are a dearly beloved child of God. You are precious and valuable, so I do not think God wants you to be hurt or to open yourself up to continuous wounds!! By the same token, His time is not our time and six years to give God time to work in your WW's life, in comparison to a 50 or 60 year marriage! Dontwantadivorce...your vows were until death do you part. Are you dead?? If not, then I think your vows still apply!

I am about 45 days from finalizing a DV with my WH. I didn't really want it to end this way, but it was ME who made the decision to file. He didn't. He didn't want me to, though he's obviously not going to stop me. I think he has so much guilt coupled with knowing that I want him to stop drinking and he isn't willing, that he's going to let the DV go through.

But am I violating God's rules? I've only waited a year for him to pull himself together and get out of the A. What if God's time is 25 years? I may be giving up 24 years too soon and losing the blessing or suffering because I'm doing something against God's will.

Do you see what I'm saying? Not saying you're wrong with your advice to DWAD at all. Just questioning myself and my decision again....

(Will the questioning ever end????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> )

LL

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Lordslady,

First...nope, the questioning never ends. I am now 1+ years post-divorce, and I still wonder if I made the right decision sometimes. Usually right about then my exH decided to act out in his illness and I am reminded why I did what I did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Anyway, as I understand it, a marriage is for life. When I took my vows, I did vow before God to love one man as long as I am alive. Since I am not dead, I am about halfway pondering where my vow stands. So far, here is what I have figured out:

The perfect will of God would have been for both of us to admit our weaknesses and how we contributed, to work on our respective addictions and illnesses, and to stay together as man and wife.

God's perfect will would have been for me to become the godly wife that He wants me to be...to admit my co-dependency and PTSD and take steps to deal with them...to repent and repair the sins I committed against my husband...and to recognize where my weaknesses are and protect my husband against further hurt by setting boundaries WAY before I'm tempted. God's perfect will would have been for me to let my husband experience the consequences of his choices, to accept the things I can not change, to give myself and my marriage to God, and to constantly seek God and do God's will. That is God's perfect will for me, and to the best of my abilities that is what I am currently attempting!

By the same token, God's perfect will would have been for my husband to become the godly man that He wants him to be...to admit his bipolar, BPD, and sexual addiction and take steps to deal with them...to repent and repair the sins he committed against me (his wife)...and to recognize where his weaknesses are and protect me against further hurt by setting boundaries WAY before he's tempted. God's perfect will would have been for my husband to experience the consequences of his choices, to accept the things he can not change, to give himself and our marriage to God, and to constantly seek God and do God's will. That is God's perfect will for my husband, and to the best of my knowledge, this is not even close to what he is currently choosing.

Thus...we get into situations like yours and mine, and dontwantadivorce too. I hung in there for four years from start of the big PA to the finish. It was not as if I made my decision hastily or overnight, and thus I felt as if I gave my husband every opportunity to truly repent and get right with God and with me. See, LL, we can not control what our WS's do or choose, and I know that your head knows that, but your heart forgets sometimes. And when it is not hasty, and there seems to be no indication of sorrow or turning or repentance--and in my case, my exH is a non-believer--I think that God's expectation is that we continue to follow His perfect will for us, and let our spouses be free to choose their life. When a spouse has years and years, as yours did and mine did and DWAD's did, their inaction is just as strong an indication of a choice as their actions.

I believe in your case and my case, that our spouses had ample opportunity to seek God's face, renew their lives, and become the kind of husband that God intends--and in their lack of action, they chose NOT to do that. In our cases, our spouses were and are clearly not believers. In our cases, it was our fondest hope that our lives would witness to your husbands and they would see the light of God in our lives and actions, and they didn't see it--they chose to close their eyes. Thus, I think God basically gives us an, "I understand." It just is not His perfect will, but because humans can be faulty and weak, and because humans can choose to not have a relationship with God, I think He "allows" it. I believe the believer is bound to honor the vow, but if the non-believer wants to leave or chooses to leave, that the believer can be given an "I understand" release.

In the case of two believers, though, I think it's a bit different. Two believers are bound to honor their vow, and you notice the vow does say, "For better...for worse...". Well, this is the "worse" part!!! What struck me as I was struggling through this is that I felt like it was taking SO LONG to work on our marriage, and the months went by SO SLOWLY and I never thought I'd make it because it hurt so much. But then I realized that I had made a vow to my husband at the age of 25yo that said I would die loving him. Since I plan to die at about 105yo ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) that's an EIGHTY YEAR RELATIONSHIP!!!! To invest even two or three years while my husband had some kind of moral crisis was not only not unreasonable, it was my obligation! Spouses DO lose it now and then, and act in ways that are completely uncharacteristic, and commitment means just that...commitment even through the weird stuff.

I am a believer. I am not released from my vow because my husband has mental illness. I am duty bound to love him inspite of his distorted thinking. I am not released from my vow because my husband has an addiction. I am duty bound to maintain my boundaries and not enable him, but to love him anyway. If HE chooses adultery, that is an instance when divorce is "allowed" but reconciliation is "preferred." If HE chooses abuse, that is an instance when divorce is "allowed" but reconciliation is "preferred." But if he were a believer...it changes things because even though he knows better and goes on a wild binge, I know that he has at least had a relationship with God at one point and at least knows that he needs to seek God's face. He may rebel and runaway from God, but he's a believer.

Sooo...does that clear things up a little? I don't think a legal divorce necessarily releases believers from their vows, but it does give the obedient believer some protection from the rebellion and abuse and harm from the rebelling believer. A legal divorce can offer the rebelling believer some time and space in order for God to hit them with lightening. haha. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> So, in DWAD's case, I suggested that he at least delay his decision (if possible) to assess if his WW had really had a renewal of her heart, or if it was just more empty words. If she has realized the sin of her ways and seriously makes amends and deals with her issues--all this without the guarantee that he will come back--then she is SERIOUS. Actions will match words. OTOH, if she is only saying that to avert the divorce and has done no work on herself and is not renewing her relationship with God and sees nothing wrong with what she did, then she is not serious. Actions will not match words.

Now, LL, I want you to consider something seriously. If your stbxH were to suddenly have an epiphany and truly humble himself before God and realize the sin of his ways...if he were to actually deal with his addiction by ending all contact with the OW, by setting a boundary so he'd never be tempted again, and by going to AA and SLAA...if he were to go to a year's worth of anger management classes and parenting classes and marriage classes and start to learn how to be a loving man, husband and father...AND if he were to do all that with no guarantee that you'd take him back but just because he had a revival of spirit...

...wouldn't you at least consider him again?


Yes, it would be a miracle, but my point here is that he is a non-believer, and if he had a revival it might take some considerable time, but you would give it a thought, huh?

I absolutely DO NOT think that God wants us to continuously open ourselves up to being hurt and harmed by our spouses. It is reasonable and legitimate to guard our hearts, because they are a wellspring of life! But I also think that we have an obligation to our vows that is a bit more serious than lots of folks take it.

Hope this helps! It's kinda muddy water, isn't it?


CJ

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

OOOOoooops!

Double post!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

In the case of two believers, though, I think it's a bit different.

Okay, here's the sticky part. My STBXH claims to be a believer. He went to church with me of and on. He claims to be trusting Jesus for his salvation.

Neither of us were believers when we got married. I was saved a couple years later and he was went forward at that same point.

How he lived his life is totally contrary to anything I would call a believer. He was into porn. He drank. He cursed. He told all sorts of dirty jokes. He didn't want to read the Bible with me. He didn't want to discuss Biblical issues/questions with me.

I'm NOT perfect. I've done some of this stuff, too. The difference right now between him and me is that I do desire to do what God wants and he doesn't seem to care. He simply counts on Jesus to save him and that is that. His response to things he does is "We're all human, LL."

I want to believe he is saved, because I hate the thought of him going to eternal suffering. He does NOT live like he's made Jesus the Lord of his life.

So where does this put me in this whole situation? Does it change things? I've struggled with DV because some believe there is an adultry clause and some don't.

I don't know what is in STBXH's heart. Who am I to say he is or isn't a believer? His words say he is; his actions say he isn't. But he's had little spells where he has prayed with me (like for a few months after his motorcycle accident in 2001--he was very grateful for all the blessings he felt that God bestowed on him--and then he slid back to his old ways again).

Ugh!! More input please!

LL

Well, LL,

I'm not a mind-reader so I can't tell any better than you can. In fact, you probably know him better than anyone, so if you can't tell, the rest of us sure can't!

That's why I said to DWAD that he and his wife were "supposedly" believers. I did not mean that I doubted it...I meant that I can not even begin to fathom how an actual believer could have an A and justify their behavior in their head. Yes, we are all human. Yes, we all have weaknesses and all sin. BUT...as I understand it, a believer is supposed to be one who accepts that God has provided a way of salvation when they don't deserve one, and who attempts to live their life in such a way that their loving behavior shows others what God is like.

God has set down some pretty basic "rules" for behavior. In the Old Testament, it was stuff like "Thou shalt not kill...Thou shalt not commit adultery..." but when Jesus came he even added to that! He said (in effect) "Hey, don't just follow the Letter of the Law! Follow the spirit of it too! Don't just avoid killing others physically--avoid killing them emotionally and mentally too. If you even THINK about killing someone it's as if you've done it! And don't just avoid missionary position intercourse but do everything else. Don't be lustful. Don't act out on your horniness. If you look at a person with a primal horny instinct, it's as if you've done it! Control your thoughts and feelings too."

So a believer is not just called to obey the OT "laws" but we are called to an even higher standard of living. Thus, if someone says with their mouth that they are this or that, but their actions don't match, then how can they be a believer? Faith without works is dead. Sounds like a "dead" believer to me!

It so often comes back to "do words and actions match"? If I tell you I'm an athlete but I sit on the couch eating potato chips every night, am I an athlete? NO!! If I am to be considered an athlete, my actions have to match and I have to put ACTION behind my words. Same here. He may say he is an alien from Mars, but words don't make it so. A stun gun, a spaceship, and alien actions do! haha.


CJ

meant that I can not even begin to fathom how an actual believer could have an A and justify their behavior in their head.

And then I beat myself up over this one...

I also had an A. And there's a bit more than I've posted over on GQII...a relapse of sorts some 7 or 8 years ago that no one knew about (proof that it is VERY important to maintain N/C)because I don't want to think about it. I just want to never do it again!

But what I do know is that during that period, even though I was backslidden, I had a terrible time with the guilt. I tried to justify it..."we weren't actually having sex, blah, blah.." But it ate me alive. Caused health problems even.

I finally woke up and stopped and am very, very, very, very, VERY ashamed and remorseful for what I did. I wish I could turn back the clock and erase it, but I can't. I choose not to think about it. But if anything good came out of it, it was a dear lesson learned about how close a friend to allow yourself to be with a person of the opposite sex. I am very careful now. In fact, outside of professional relationships, I have no opposite-sex friends.

What am I saying with all this? I guess, I am more and more confused because I consider myself a believer--I truly WANT to do what God wants me to do (even though I stumble). But even I allowed myself to get into something very wrong during a rough period in my marriage.

Okay, I turned away from it. But it took a few months, and it progressing to an act of SF and my realizing how I'd turned away from God and how much I stood to lose if anyone found out to get me to snap out of it.

What if my STBXH is just going to take a LOT longer to snap out of his? (Because obviously the first act of SF didn't do it for him...he's actually told me his "appetite" has increased since he's been with her.) What if he is a believer who is seriously backslidden (or maybe a really, really weak one who just hasn't gotten the 'works' thing down yet)?

Should I hold on in hopes that he'll eventually "get it", too? Am I wrong to want to move on and get away from the chaos?

It is less chaotic now. But I've had hopes that it might give me a chance to someday have a normal relationship with a man who wants to follow God's word, who would pray with me and not keep saying, "Not now, I'm tired.." What if I'm truly supposed to stay single for the rest of my life (and like you...it could be a long one if I share my grandmothers' longetivy).

And then what if my STBXH becomes my XH in about 45 days, and then what if he marries the OW? Where does that leave me in all this??

I'm on an analytical roll tonight, huh??!

LL

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL,

I hope you don't mind me posting on this thread - it's a topic that is close to my heart. I can tell that you want to do the right thing - God's will.

There is an excellent website that has many articles about divorce, standing for God to restore your marriage that says it better than I can say write it. Here's todays email from rejoice ministries:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> HELP ME! -

Are you crying out for help today? As we read our letters and email
there is a common thread going through each person who shares their
heart - "Help me! I can't do this any more! I am hurting so badly!"

"Answer me when I call to you, O my righteous God. Give me relief
from my distress; be merciful to me and hear my prayer."
Psalm 4:1

"I call on you, O God, for you will answer me; give ear to me and
hear my prayer. Show the wonder of your great love, you who save
by your right hand those who take refuge in you from their foes."
Psalm 17:6-7

When you need help, who do you go to? Many people go to their family,
friends or counselors. Our ultimate source of help in our life must
come from God. He is your only source for meeting your needs
physically, spiritually and emotionally. My prayer is that you will
learn to trust in Him with all your heart and seek Him for mercy and
grace to help you "in your time of need."

"I lift up my eyes to the hills--where does my help comes from?
My help comes from the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth."
Psalm 121:1-2

May you remember that the only One who can help you today, is your
Lord God, the maker of heaven and earth. He knows your heart, He
hears your cries, He knows your pain and fears. No one else knows
your deepest thoughts, feelings and weariness. Allow Him to lead you
through all your trials and tribulations that you are facing.

Rejoice Marriage Ministries wants you to be healed emotionally,
spiritually and physically. We have several purposes and goals for
you personally to understand why you are standing (forever) for the
restoration of your marriage. May I list a few:

* For your salvation.
* For the salvation of your spouse and loved ones
* For you to have apersonal daily relationship with your Lord.
* For you to learn to study and read the Word of God.
* For you to allow the Lord to change your heart.
* For you to know who you are in Christ.
* For you to know the power of God.
* For you to know that marriage is a covenant, not a contract.
* For you to for you to repent for your mistakes in your marriage.
* For you to learn how to forgive your spouse regardless of actions.
* For you to love your spouse and family unconditionally.
* For you to pray and know the importance of all marriages.
* For you to know how divorce affects the children.
* For you to pray for all children hurting because of their parent's
separation or divorce.
* For you to ask the Lord how you can help others, while you wait for
your miracle.

"Our help is in the name of the Lord, the Maker of heaven and
earth." Psalm 124:8

Imagine the Lord making the heavens and the earth! Why do you think
He cannot handle your problems? We are told throughout the Bible that
we are not to be afraid. God even knows the very number of hairs on
your head. He knows where your spouse is and He is working in their
life. Pray that your spouse will be obedient to the will of God.
Pray that your spouse's heart will become a heart of flesh, their
stubbornness and rebellion will be removed, and that they will die to
their selfishness, sinful nature and pride.

"So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am
your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you
with my righteous right hand." Isaiah 41:10

Imagine you being held in God's arms, carrying you close to His heart.
God values you and your personal needs; he desires your love and
fellowship. You are never away from His presence, care and concern.
He knows all your cares, your trials and yours sorrows. Go to Him for
your help and answers to your problems. If you are going through a
difficult time, know that it went through God's hand first. God is in
control.

"He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his
arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those
that have young." Isaiah 40:11

"Save us and help us with your right hand, that those you love may
be delivered." Psalm 60:5

May this scripture encourage the mothers and fathers who are alone
raising their children. Your Lord God is carrying you and leading
your every step, if only you will call on Him. He is also calling
on the names of the sheep who have left the flock. He will leave
ninety-nine for one lost sheep. Believe in the power of your Lord God.
Your help will come from your Lord. Never give up on your spouse,
regardless of the time that it is taking. He does bring His stray
sheep home!

"You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay."
Psalm 40:17

God bless,
Charlyne Steinkamp
Rejoice Marriage Ministries
Post Office Box 10548
Pompano Beach, Florida 33061
http://rejoiceministries.org
http://stopdivorce.org

- - - - -
Visit the Rejoice Restoration Bookstore - http://stopdivorce.org
- - - - -

Are you being strengthened and encouraged by "Charlyne Cares"? Join
us in proclaiming, "God Heals Hurting Marriages" by becoming a partner
with us in Rejoice Marriage Ministries. Sow seed in fertile soil and
be blessed by your Lord - http://rejoiceministries.org/ucanhelp.html
- - - - -
Listen to Rejoice Marriage Ministries three radio programs to help
keep you standing strong - http://rejoiceministries.org/radio.html
- - - - -
The best news - http://rejoiceministries.org/salvation.html
Court? - http://stopdivorce.org/index.php?viewItem=00216&viewCat=2
Add our link to your page- http://rejoiceministries.org/link2us.html
Share a praise report- http://rejoiceministries.org/testimony.html
- - - - -
Scripture quoted by permission and are from the Holy Bible; New
International Version® Copyright© 1973, 1978, 1984 by International
Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan Publishing House. All
rights reserved.
- - - - -
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, I asked myself the same questions and even went to see a Priest who told me that God would allow DV even though he hates it, but that I would need to remain unmarried. The Deacon encouraged me to stand for my marriage.

There have been a number of times that I was ready to DV, but God would sometimes gently lead me back and other times yank me like a dog on a choke chain.

Now, I know that I will stand for my M, for as long as it takes. By doing so, I am saying my God is bigger than my circumstances. If I don't do this, then I am playing God.

Throughout this time, I've worked hard on me, by going to alanon, growing spiritually, seeking God in everything. No matter what happens I really like me and am very glad I chose to stand for my M.

If your H had a disease like cancer, would you DV him? Please understand that I am not saying to put up with unacceptable behavior, I just think that alanon would really help you in your decision making process.

The fact that you are even having these doubts shows that God is tugging on your mind. Get quiet, go to God, what is He really telling you to do?

Blessings,

D.

I am going to drive myself crazy. I can't stop the DV. It would take two of us now that he's accepted the papers. And honestly, in my heart, I don't want to. I have a lot of financial fears being tied to him.

I wasn't even questioning my decision lately, but was more looking at it as "if I haven't moved on and found some wonderful Christian man and my WH comes back and repents and wants to try again, I would be willing to try again."

But then I read on here, and people say one thing to me and another to someone else based on their circumstances, and my brain goes off on a tangent.

If I were to pick the one thing in this life here on earth that I long for more than anything else, and have since childhood, it is for a partner to love and to share my life with--someone who loves me and wants to be with me. I I miss sex and all that, but I long for the emotional connection, and for just knowing that the person will always be there for me as long as they live, and that our lives will be guided by God.

Okay, I've never had that. I had a husband who from time to time acted like he loved me. But I've prayed off and on ever since I was saved that God would also change my WH's heart. WH verbally gave his life to Christ, but actions haven't exactly followed.

So here I am now. I don't want back what I had. I long for WH to turn to the Lord. Can I make him? NO.

And all along I've believed that we are saved by Jesus' blood, because no matter how good we try to be, we are never good enough (though we ARE supposed to try, and should want to try, being Christians). So how can my salvation be affected if I make a wrong choice in respect to standing by my M?

But I torment myself with guilt of just not waiting long enough...not doing enough... I've read articles of people who prayed and waited forever, even though their spouse never did end up coming back.

I'm SOOOOO afraid that will be me, and I might give up a chance to have a really fulfulling life with a wonderful Christian husband by holding out when I didn't need to.

And if my WH were living at home and dabbling in the A on the side, it might not be quite as hard to try and stand for the M, because at least I'd be getting some of his time. But he's gone...living with OW. He rarely calls. It's like not being M at all. I am getting absolutely no EN's met. It's SOOOO hard to think this could be like this for the rest of my life.

Am I supposed to refuse dates if an opportunity arises once I'm DV? I'm not even sure I'm strong enough to do that forever. And what if WH remarries? Am I still bound to wait on him? I believe that if he marries someone else, even if it doesn't work out, I can't remarry him because we would be committing adultry.

Moral of this story: At the point I filed, I had become comfortable with my decision. My pastor even likened it to the prodigal son. "Let him go", he said. My other pastor assured me that it was his belief that because WH was in unrepentent adultry, that I was not sinning by DV him or moving on, if someone else who met God's requirements came along.

So the only real issues I've had are a longing for WH to turn to the Lord, and daily I fight the belief that I can change him. I finally said, "Okay, I'm letting go. I'm living my life. I'm not going to try and live his. I'm going to pray that God allows me to have that Christian marriage I pray so hard for, and I'm going to trust."

And now I've gotten myself all confused again and am questioning everything.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

LL

I hope all these questions pass soon again. I feel nauseaus this morning. I did go to the rejoice ministries website. I do see some wonderful things that have happened for some people. Unfortunately, I feel trapped more than anything.

Initially, I have looked at my filing DV as maybe the door to freedom to finding that Christian relationship I want so badly. With even my pastors encouraging me to just let go and be done, after praying a lot to God for answers, I felt that enough things were pointing to "letting go" that although he doesn't like DV, he would allow it in my case.

Now I'm not really sure of anything.

LL

So I drive to work this morning...and I cry the entire way. Then I send texts to my STBXH...telling him I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing. Telling him I'm worried that he'll marry OW.

Why do I get feeling SO good, and thinking that I'm really healing and am on my way to a better life, and then things fall to pieces and all I can think of is how much I miss his all-too-infrequent-even-when-married hugs??

And then I'm now finding myself in a position I hadn't been in before. Have any of you actually felt angry with God, or that things are't fair? I sort of feel that way right now, and then that really adds to my guilt. I don't want to be angry with God. I want to trust him.

LL

<small>[ October 06, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Lordslady,

First things first...(Hollywood smack!) GET AHOLD OF YOURSELF GIRL!! Milady, you are a grown woman fully in control of your emotions and thoughts and feelings--they do not rule you. So you just tell your feelings to knock it off and your thoughts to BACK OFF because they are just temptations from the devil!! (sticking out my tongue as the doubts back off)

LL, this is quite a normal part of process. Here's the way it goes. I use the example of a person who had a horrible cut on their arm who has now developed gangrene. They get the news that if they do not cut off their arm, they are going to die.

1. Denial--it can't be true!! Violently ill. How can this happen to me? Raging-aching-crying!!! Start to look into it--read up on gangrene and try every possible option OTHER THAN cutting off the arm. When penicillin and western medicine don't work, try herbs, magic potions, and voodoo. Nope--still need to cut off the arm to live.

2. Grief and loss--if I cut off my arm I will lose so much! No more playing catch with my kids! No more writing or typing! No more twirling spaghetti on a fork! No more hugging someone all the way around! How can I lose all that? I'll never make it. But if I die I'll lose so much more. I'll never see my kids graduate or get married. I'll miss my grandkids. Maybe it's better if I'm at least alive...

3. Schedule the surgery. A decision is made, although it's scary and seems very final, there's no more delaying--a decision is made. The surgery is scheduled to amputate the arm, and preparations are made. There is medication to take and the day of the surgery there is shaving to be done. It is moving forward...the arm is coming off and you'll be alive.

4. Wandering in the Valley of Indecision--about halfway through the surgery, after the initial incisions and anesthesia, the surgeon pulls out a SAW and you think "Maybe this wasn't the best idea. Maybe I could still somehow save the arm. What if the arm heals? What if I lost it for nothing? What if the cure for gangrene is discovered tomorrow? What if ... What if ...???" Some people wander in this valley for a long time, but eventually they realize that the surgery has to be finished...they are going to lose something that is precious to them...and they move forward and the arm is cut off. It's DONE.

5. Adjustment--the arm is gone. At first you can still feel it and you miss it. At first it seems like you can't do ANYTHING and you're a helpless blob. Then you start to learn how to do things for yourself...after all you still have your other arm. Ok, so you're handwriting is messy, but you're alive! Pretty soon you start to find ways to live with just one arm. Yeah, you miss having two now and then, and every now and then you think of a "what if" or "why?" but most of the time you are out there looking for cute new tops AND you found a prosthetic that works for your life--it's athletic and it moves so you can play catch again!! And without the gangrene in your system, you start to feel better and better--more lively, more happy, more joyous.

See, LL, you are in the "Wandering in the Valley of Indecision" stage. You made a decision (and a wise one, IMHO), and you scheduled the surgery. Now, you have seen the saw and you're feeling self-doubt. It is a normal thing, yet you don't want to be here forever...just as you don't want to be in a harmful, unhealthy, soul-killing relationship forever.

LL, don't forget that GOD LOVES YOU TOO. He does not want you to be hurt, torn apart, abused, neglected or all that other stuff either, because YOU are precious to Him. When God sees you treated like that by a rebellious son, HE GRIEVES. Did you honor your commitment? I believe you did. Did you give your stbxh time to turn his life around? I believe you did. Does God want you to jump right into "the relationship you've always wanted"? I doubt it because you have lots of healing to do so you aren't treated like a useless rug again. God does not only love and value your stbxh, LL, HE LOVES YOU and does not want to see you harmed like this. He wants to see you bloom like the beautiful, wonderous, magnificent rose of a woman you are.

So believe in His Love, stop doubting, and start to bloom for Him. Keep your eyes focused on God and doing God's will one day at a time, and you will be fine.

((((((((((Lordslady)))))))))) sister-hugs!


CJ

LL,
Hopefully CJ will offer more of her wise insights. But I just had to chime in for a second here!!
This line:
telling him I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing. Telling him I'm worried that he'll marry OW.
Please do not stop or try to stop the D simply because you are afraid he will marry the OW!
Standing for your M because it is something you feel the Lord is leading you to do is one thing. But standing for your M just because you are trying to keep your WH from marrying the OW - that is something else entirely. That sounds more like you are acting out of fear!
Your H shows no signs of repentance at all. If he did - things would be different. Listen to CJ - she is right. You need to see actions to match words.
My WxH did "talk" about reconciling at one point. After the OW kicked him out, and we had been divroced for several months, he said "I want my family back". I struggled - like you are now. I said to him "Ok, I am willing to work at it. I want to see that you are willing to work at it as well" I gave him a list of counselors and said "here, make an appointment" he didn't do it. He was too busy at the time, and also felt like he didn't need counseling. I told him that he would need to meet with the church elders. He didn't do it.
I would invite him over for dinner, and he would talk to other women on his cell phone, while sitting in my house. I said - you will have to stop ALL relationships with other women. You need to commit to talking to ME when you have problems, and confiding in ME, not in all these other women. He wouldn't do it. he said "I am not sure if you are really going to take me back, so I have to keep my options open. I have to keep these other relationships just in case you decide that you won't take me back after all.
I said "do not waste my time any longer with this talk of reconciling. You do not want ME you want anyone woman who will take you in. You no what he did? He agreed with me. He said "You're right - I just need to be in a relationship with soemone - right away. I can't wait. If you won't take me back immediatley then I need to move on.

LL - does any of this sound familiar to you?

I am totally at peace now.

God allows D in the case of infidelity - he does not require it. We all agree with that. If your WH was even a tiny bit repentant, we would all agree that you should be open to reconciling. But he isn't.

Hang in there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said "You're right - I just need to be in a relationship with soemone - right away. I can't wait. If you won't take me back immediatley then I need to move on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not exact, but similar. I heard in June, "I had to find an apartment and move OW in because you wouldn't let me move back home right now, and I can't afford a place on my own."

(Keep in mind that other than food stamps that OW gets and shouldn't, she does not work so provides nothing toward living expenses.)

I'm trying to move on. Trying not to let CJ's "gangrene" kill me. Just having a really tough day today--missing the endearing little things that we did have. It's good that the work day is over and I can go home and sniffle all I want in private.

LL

LL,
I don't often respond because I feel that I am so screwed up myself that how could I possibly help someone else. But much of your post is what I am struggling with so I thought I would share how I feel.

I filed for D, not because I wanted one, but because I felt I had no other options. If I didn't, I knew that my WH would continue his ways and it was slowly killing me. When I sat waiting for the attorney, I had a panic attack. I stopped and said a quick prayer asking for God's guidance and wisdom. A sudden peace came over me and I ended up waiting the rest of the time with a good magazine.

I question daily, no hourly, my decision. It has been worse after my recent miscarriage. In fact I cried for over an hour today questioning what I was doing. But this is what I know is true. I can not remain in the M the way it was. I do not want to wait for my WH to get his life straightened around while I watch mine go by. The D will bring me closure. My WH will either wake up before the final hour and start fighting for me or he will let the D go thru. If he doesn't fight for me, then I know there was nothing left because I can't continue to fight for "us" alone.

I have also took a close look at what we had. I don't want that back. WH did not treat me the way I deserved. So I am trying to tell myself that without this fight that I am talking about WH will never see the need to change. Without this change I will never be happy.

You stated that you miss his much too infrequent hugs. I know how you feel. Sometimes I want WH back thinking that those little things could be enough. But this is what my counselor said and it has really hit home. "The fear of the unknown is driving you at being content with the known." He means that I am so afraid of being alone and what my life could be like that I am willing to settle for a second rate M.

I believe that God wants us to be happy. I have done all that I humanly can to make my M work. I did not rush into my decision and neither did you. We have given our WH's time and even now as we wait for the D we are still hoping. I don't think that you should allow yourself to feel guilty. I seek God's advice daily, but I can not let my life wonder by waiting on something that may never be. If it truly is God's will then I pray his will will be done before the D is final.
Hope I haven't sounded as confused as I feel. It is a horrible place we find ourselves.
Best wishes
CD

Hi LL,

It took me a while but I finally caught up with ya.I too have had my doubts about filing but I really like CJ's analogy.It's scary to think about all the changes but we both know remaining in the surrent situation wasn't healthy.You know that right? There aren't the little happy times together anymore,those are gone,just memories.And staying together when there is no semblence of a marriage left to hold onto isn't going to do anyone any good either.Don't forget what a marriage is about,not just vows and committments but so much more and a lot of what is gone now.

If you don't mind me saying so,I think you are being a little too hard on yourself.I understand your trepidation at the decision you made but God isn't going to hold you accountable for your WH's actions and refusal to do the right thing regarding the marriage.You sound terribly conflicted and I guess I am still not clear why you are.You also seem to be terribly tied up in what your WH is doing and his refusal to comply with God's will.Maybe you are still unable to find your own self worth here? Is that why you concentrate so much on WH and his wellbeing and what he is doing and with whom?

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>But am I violating God's rules? I've only waited a year for him to pull himself together and get out of the A. What if God's time is 25 years? I may be giving up 24 years too soon and losing the blessing or suffering because I'm doing something against God's will.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've struggled with these kinds of questions too. Although the chances of my ex-wife seeking reconciliation have for a long time seemed negligible, who knows what could happen a few months, or a few years, or a few decades from now?

The answer, of course, is that God knows.

In my case, I had no choice in the matter of whether to divorce or not. But I certainly have the choice to wait for reconciliation or not. And while from an omniscient perspective it might be tragic for me to "give up on" my ex-wife too soon (if she is going to get herself turned around some day), it would also be tragic for me to "hang on" too long (if she is never going to get herself turned around). My point is, only God knows what my ex-wife is going to do, so only God knows what I ought to do. I believe that He has a plan for me which takes into account both His knowledge of my ex-wife's choices and also His knowledge of how He made me - along with His love for me!

We do what we have to do. To some extent, a divorce is just a legal technicality. The courts - and in many states the laws - do not care if there was any adultery or any abuse or any broken promises. They do not care who is guilty of what, or how God feels about any of it. The only purpose the courts have is to disentangle those finances and legal responsibilities which were joined by the legal institution of marriage. If the choices of our "partners" render the protection of that disentanglement necessary, well, it seems to me that divorce is the only reasonable choice.

As to what that legal process means in God's eyes, that's a rather more interesting question, I think.

For my part, I am satisfied by the conclusions reached by David Instone-Brewer, who has done the most thorough and thoughtful study of the subject that I am aware of, and who presents it persuasively in his book.

I believe that in many cases, God intends to restore broken marriages, even after divorce. In those cases, I believe that God will - if we choose to listen - lay upon our hearts the conviction and the strength to stand for our marriage. (I believe that He may even, for a time, lay this upon our hearts in cases where He knows that's not going to happen - but that's another matter.)

On the other hand, I believe that if God knows our marriage will never be restored within the constraints of free will, He will work an alternate plan so that His purpose for our lives will still be fulfilled.

In His time, His plan will be revealed. Meanwhile, our responsibility is to seek Him and His will - and to be ready to accept either the hard work of reconciliation or the hard work of letting go (or both!), however He directs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Will the questioning ever end?????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's good for it not to end. We should always be checking ourselves to see if we are truly seeking God's will for our lives rather than our own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>And then what if my STBXH becomes my XH in about 45 days, and then what if he marries the OW? Where does that leave me in all this??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if he does? If your STBXH chooses to establish a new legal arrangement, what does that have to do with your decisions? Whether you divorce or not, he can still move in with the OW and behave as if married. The legal aspects aren't going to suddenly make God decide that He ought to retroactively bless your STBXH's actions. (I'm not saying that God can't bless a marriage which started that way, but I think the Bible is pretty clear that repentence is a prerequisite.)

As for yourself, you are left with your own responsibilities - to yourself, and to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>And then I'm now finding myself in a position I hadn't been in before. Have any of you actually felt angry with God, or that things are't fair? I sort of feel that way right now, and then that really adds to my guilt. I don't want to be angry with God. I want to trust him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Angry with God? Truthfully, no, I've never gotten angry at Him. Puzzled by Him, yes - but I'm not going to hold Him responsible for the choices that other people make.

Have I felt that things weren't fair? Well...sure! But in the big picture, I've left a wondrously blessed life, growing up in a loving home in the United States with all the opportunities and privileges that were showered upon me through none (or little) of my own doing. I look at the pain that I've gone through and I think...wow! There are an awful lot of people in this world who have been through far worse, but at least now I am a little better equipped to understand them and their pain. On balance, on the fairness scale, I'd have to say that I am still way off on the unfairly blessed end.

But we're all different, and if you feel angry with God, what of it? Don't you think He's big enough to take it? I think He understands where that anger comes from, and it isn't going to change His love for you. I think it matters far more to Him whether you are going to trust him in your actions - whether you feel like it or not.

{{{{ lordslady }}}}

LL, I struggled with these questions for years, too. I still feel a lot of regret about my STBXH's illness that destroyed our marriage and is slowly destroying him. I no longer doubt my decision to DV him. I don't believe that God expects me to stay in an abusive, unfaithful marriage. I believe that I've had to learn through this experience that I can only take care of myself, and even then, only with God's help. Still being married is causing me extreme emotional stress and financial hardship.

I don't presume to know what God's will is for me, and especially for my STBXH. I've heard that FEAR is the opposite of FAITH and I believe my fear held me back from DV, not God's will for me to save my marriage.

We've all read the testimonies of those who've stood for their marriages and now have stronger marriages than ever. But, we've also heard the stories of those who've moved on and found the love of their lives. Then, too, there are those of use who find happiness in our children and/or our friends and/or our work. None of us know what God has in store for us.

And, speaking of God, I, too, have been angry at God. I've been through infertility, my mother's death to breast cancer, my own breast cancer, my H's drug/alcohol relapse, abuse, infidelity, and recently my stepson's suicide. It's been one thing after another without a break. I hate when people say that "God doesn't give us more tahn we can handle" because I'm no better able to handle all this than the next person.

I don't believe God caused any of these things to happen to test me or punish me. I don't believe in a God that causes bad things to happen to people. I don't think God expects us to suffer because of the bad behavior of others. This would be a whimsical and capricious God and that's not what I believe. But, I'm still struggling with what God wants from me and for me.

LL,

I have been struggling with this very thing for 18 years.

I guess I would qualify for the poster girl for the 'woman who is justified in seeking a divorce' ,camp.

Serious physical and mental abuse, repeated abandonment, repeat adultery, neglect, left destitute...you name it.

I have been in plan A for 18 years. Returning love for hate, forgiving where there has been no remorse...

He is a man who is deeply disturbed, who can be very loving, but also very cruel.

The last time he left was a year ago, and he left us without food or heat or a car. God arranged for me to have shelter and employment just in time.

It is as though he removed me to a safe place out of harms way.

My H has not initiated legal proceedings, but he would have no reason to. He would be worse off finacially ( made to take responsibility for child support) and he will not bother to remarry.

So I am in a kind of limbo. In practical terms I have no 'husband". Maybe in Gods sight we are still one flesh. I don't know.

As a believer, my first loyalty is to Christ; to God's agenda. I put my hand to the plow, long before I married. And Gods agenda is to bring my husband into relationship with himself. So that is what I pray for. What I am trusting in is Gods ability to deliver him.

I think that God is more concerned with reconciling and healing my H than he is with my 'happiness'. And that is as it should be.

If it serves Gods purposes for me to remain legally married to him, and wait for him for 18 more years; so be it.
If somehow by staying in marital limbo and continuing to pray for him , and show him love will help to accomplish Gods will, I guess that is what I will do.

I don't know.

I know that I want to see this man healed and set free from the things that torment him. I know that I am the only person praying for him, who cares about him enough to pray for him and bear with him and love him despite his ways. Every one else in his life has given up on him.

I know that God can and will deliver him. I don't know how long it will take, and I am very tired and discouraged sometimes, but I am willing to go the distance if that will help.

If this is my cross, I will carry it.

Trouble is that I wonder sometimes if it makes any difference. It may be that God can work on him without me, and maybe all these years, I could have been in a healthy relationship, enjoying peace and comfort. Maybe all this was a waste of time.

But I don't think love is ever wasted. And I know that I would not have grown without the adversity.

As I see it, Jesus gave up his life for me, while I was his enemy. I am commanded to love those who hate me and pray for those who despitefully use me; to show mercy as I have been shown mercy, ( and I have been forgiven much).

In my heart I have released my H from the marriage. But while he lives, or until God tells me otherwise, I will still keep praying for him ,and showing him love when I have the opportunity. (I have been doing it for so long- I have given so much of myself to this , that I would have nothing left for another man, anyway.)

I don't know how I know , but I know that Gods will is unfolding as it is meant to. I think that He knows exactly what to do , what it will take for them to be restored to Him. the perfect timing.

It seems to take so long, but compared to eternity this present life is a drop in the bucket. And I just don't want my H to miss out on Gods love.

This is what keeps me going day after day.

To give up would be like saying that I don't believe that God can deliver him.

But that is why Jesus came- to give sight to the blind, to set captives free, to give spiritual life to whom he will.

We might not see it, but God is at work in our spouses.


This doesn't answer your question, but it is why I haven't given up . If God can reach him, our relationship will also be healed.


Shul

I want to add that even though things look pretty bleak sometimes, I am notjust sitting here wringing my hands.


Although it feels frustrating, like we have no control over our circumstances, we are not powerless by any means.

Instead of seeing our husbands as the adversary, we need to see who the real enemy is, and use the power and authority we have as believers, to intervene on our husbands behalf.

The more hurt and rejection that gets dished out, the more opportunity we have to demonstrate love, patience, mercy. The same love, patience and mercy that God has demonstrated to us.


We can turn this around. Light will always overcome darkness.

But we have to be very sensitive to Gods leading, daily. Trusting him for everything.

God give you courage and light, Lordslady.

Shul

Lots of great comments have come my way since I last responded.

What I have realized: The more I think of staying and waiting on my WH, the worse I feal--the sicker I get. I made myself so sick with anxiety asking myself if should just stay and live as M but without having a H, that I ended up with some serious indigestion that is still with me.

On the other hand, I feel a lot more peace when I carry on with my current plan and let God take it from there. I have to trust that God will prevent a relationship from happening with someone else if I'm supposed to wait, and he'll allow it to happen if I'm not.

Also, I've been reminded by a lot of people now that God is all-powerful and that he can bring my WH to himself without MY help if he so desires. (Because I've worried that if I step out of WH's life, there'll be no other Christians to care). Again, the Prodigal Son comes to mind--the father had to let him go before he finally figured things out and came back.

I also go back to the verses in Corinthians where it speaks of letting a non-believer go if they don't want to stay with you, and asks if you think you can save them. It says one is not bound in such a situation. I'm not sure if my WH was or is a believer. He says with words that he is, but his actions for the most part say the opposite.

So I will continue down my present path for now. I do care deeply for him him. I don't treat him with animosity. Whenever we speak, I do my best to speak in a caring tone. I am being more than civil with my DV. I am not fighting him on anything. I am willingly splitting a very large retirement plan 50/50. I am making it as non-hateful as it possibly can be, and am telling him throughout the process that it's not how I wanted us to end up, but that I'm doing it because I was afraid financially of what he was capable of doing (that is true--it's what prompted me to file when I did). I've told him that if he ever lets OW go and gets help for his substance abuse, and I've not moved on, that I would be willing to consider another chance with him. But I am not staying M to someone who is not there.

Enough for now.

LL