when your young child (9) says you are "pure evil" and that he wants to go live with the other parent?

Background later.

Buttercup,

That is a tough one to answer. I think that there is really no definate answer just how you wish to approach it. If it were me and my child said it to me I would probably say ( especially if they were your child's age ) that I ackowleged his/her feelings and am glad that they felt comfortable telling me the truth. However, I think that it is best that you live with me on a permanent basis. I would also tell them that maybe we could come to an agreement to take a vacation from one another and allow them to go stay the other parent's house for one (1) week and then return home.

I think that would be fair and reasonable for a child. That allows the both of you the space to free yourselves of the anger and maybe guilt you both might be feeling. It allows some breathing room for the two of you and it allows them to see the other parent on a consistent basis for a few days.

Then he'll return home a happy camper and you'll be well rested to deal with a new week's work load!! children usually act out to get a rile out of the parent, so you must handle them delicately and be open to negotiating tactics.

JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"You're absolutely right, dear, but I'll be better after Halloween. Did I mention that I've decided to use live spiders in the decorations this year?"

I would say "Well, son, I hope it gets to happen some day." but I am the "other" parent. I wouldn't count on the one week plan working. When I returned my 9 year old, at the time, to his mother after my six weeks of summer visitation she had to pry him out of my truck and drag him kicking a screaming into her house. It is possible that they actually do want to live with the "other" parent and it is also possible that it could be the best thing for them. The playing field isn't level ladies.

<small>[ October 14, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: deafjeff ]</small>

Without the evil line, my daughter told me tonight she wants to go live with her father at Christmas.

The stoopit idgit doofus jerk left when they were 4 and 2. He's sent money regularly, sees them often, could be worse.

I am the one who has dealt with teachers, made plans, provided opportunities, toted them to psychiatrists, opthamologists, orthodontists, dentist, pediatricians, dermatologists, music lessons, speech therapists, schools, all this with no emotional support from the sumb!#ch who won't cough up all the money and she wants to go live with him. The same man who no-shows lessons or dr appts made during his week when they were routine and regularly scheduled therapeutic apptointments. And tells me that, if I try to fight, I'll just lose.

I could die. Could just die.

<small>[ October 14, 2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]</small>

Again.....I would respond to him by saying, "I'll be most happy to see you in court honey. Remember, the judge will be looking at the BEST interests for our children, which I am sure you want too."

I read a book a while back - so impactful to me on this issue of relationships, emotional manipulation by wounded innocents...

It's called The Four Agreements

When a child says something like this to a parent, the parent needs to step back and instead of personalizing the attack, instead, question where this child is really coming from and what are they really angry about.

Because, if there's one thing I know in this cyber-world, it's that YOU, xpButtercup, are not evil. And I believe you also know that. So please don't take these rantings personally.

A nine year old doesn't get to choose which parent they get to live with - so he might as well talk about what's bothering him - really bothering him.

He's playing your pain about your ex to get an emotional reaction out of you. So a good question to ask is WHY/What's up to put this into him. You'll get further that way than personalizing and going to a place of fear.

For what it's worth.

Well, the responses are all over the place! And I suspect a couple of you know my history.

First, I am not willing to jump into the parental alienation thing that dad and grandma have done since day one of the separation. It seemed to have gotten better until just recently, now I learned that grandma is reporting back to the kids all the 'fun' news about their old school and making them 'homesick' for it, when I've had ZERO complaints from them about the new school until now.

I found out that the day care was ready to call protective services for 'emotional abuse' over the b*tching out that my son received from his dad because my daughter got on the bus to day care when she didn't see dad at the school after class (he was late) ... son was crying, and in no way was it his fault that his little sister did the RIGHT THING.

The whole latest thing about moving to dad's came up when I did not IMMEDIATELY grant his request to come and look at something in the store ... I was trying to hurry through the store with a sick girl, he had stopped at an endcap and wanted me to come back, I tried to say that I would look at it when we got back to that end of the store (end of next aisle) but he blew up and growled that I don't respect him and that he wasn't coming home from dad's on Wednesday, that I had better send all of his stuff over there too. Well I could see he was looking for a rise from me and told him if he leaves, all of his stuff stays at my house, I bought it. Blew a hole in his plan and he just grumbled the rest of the night. No problems with pickup on Wednesday, other than them both whining about going back to their old school (for the first time in 7 weeks) because Grandma said this happened and that is going to happen, etc.

Son is much better after his counseling appts, which are two weeks apart right now because of the visitation schedule. He should really go every week, I think, to blow off steam and get rational third-party input. He is loving and hugs me in the days following an appt. Otherwise he is very standoffish and disrespectful. If I had a nickel for every time he looked or sounded like his dad ... irrational anger at me, blaming me for things clearly out of my control, etc.

Cinderella, I'm sorry for what you're going through. I am worried that when he is of legal age to choose, that DS will do the same to me. It is hard to be the parent who does everything, including lays down rules and has solid expectations and consequences, when he can go to dad's (grandma's) and have rule of the roost for the weekend.

And while I appreciate Dearjeff's opinion, the emotional abuse and clear favoritism in that household is NOT in my children's best interests. My ex's mother fought for custody, not him. They pushed for the psych eval, which backfired on them. They continue to ignore the court orders. They continue to harm the children mentally while trying to pit their minds against me. I pray for the strength to respond appropriately in the face of this dispicable enemy.

I was reading this post and the horrible image of my baby girl saying that she'd rather live with her father than me was right in front of me. It hasn't happened yet, but it's one of the many fears i have for the future. How to deal with that? I have no idea. My instinct is for you to sit your child down and find out exactly what is "Pure evil" about you from your child's perspective. Maybe you have already done that though. I am sure that from time to time all children go through these feelings. Is the grass greener on the other side? Are they missing out on something better? Should I be with the other parent more? Whatever it is, we will have to deal with it and explain why the courts made their decision (if appropriate) and why the child can or can not go live with the other parent whether it be temporarily or permanently. I am sorry you have to go through that! I know it must be awful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Buttercup,
I'm not saying that it is always in the best interest of the chilldren for their father to have custody, in reality it is probably the opposite to a point. There are some studies that indicate that especially pre-teen boys and often pre-teen girls are better off with their father. What I am saying is that it is not always in the best interest of the children for the mother to be the custodial parent. In my part of the world the mother could be a prostitute with a needle full of methamphetamine constantly jammed in her arm and the father the director of the church choir and the mother is going to get custody.
As for court orders, my WxW is taking me back to court. One of her main complaints is that I call my kids every night at 8:15 to talk about their day, tell them I love them and goodnight. While she can keep them out til 9:00 or later on school nights 8:15 is too late for me to call, so I have to answer a petition for citation for contempt of court. She was the one lying and cheating. She wanted the divorce. I tried my best to work things out with her. I plan Aed my a$$ off for at least 10 minutes. Nothing worked. We got divorced, she got every thing she wanted. Now all I want is to be the best father to my children that I can be and she is fighting that. The playing field is not level.

I have already explained to DS that when you take out the time he is sleeping and the time he is in school, that dad and I have close to a 50/50 split. Dad gets every other weekend (after school Friday until after dinner Sunday) and every Wednesday (after school until bedtime) ... PLUS we have agreed that dad can take him to all sorts of Cub Scout stuff, which was about every other Monday last year, from after school until bedtime. Now it is cutting into my weekends. Which is even more aggravating because dad didn't take DD to many of her soccer practices on HIS days.

It is not my fault that most of "dad's" time is spent with Grandma. I would really rather have them spend it with their dad, who seems to be finally starting to disagree with the way she dotes on DS, buys him expensive presents (and not DD) and allows him to play Gameboy for HOURS on end!

Gosh, what self-centered 9 year old boy WOULDN'T want to move? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

(On the pure evil thing ... I used the same logic I used against him when he thought I was 'stupid' [more of this dad eeking through] ... told him that since he is biologically 1/2 me and 1/2 his dad, that I must be okay, since he is such a smart kid. He couldn't call himself 1/2 evil, so he relented. *g*)

*** (THIS DANG BOARD! Logged me out while I was trying to post! I was logged in when I started writing, and "out" when I clicked 'add reply' ... grrrr!)

Mr. Jeff,

I am sorry for your situation. In this case, my ex is more like your ex than your ex is like me, it would appear. I don't disagree that some judges prefer to award custody to women. Please don't assume that I am like your ex simply because I am a woman who won custody.

I'm not trying to take anything away from XH, and believe me, he will complain if I get five extra minutes that should have been "his" ... he and his mother are the ones that have hung up on me when I have called to talk to the kids. He never calls them at home. He comes 15 minutes early to pick them up and I have them ready ... I show up on time or early and he doesn't bring them out until 10 after ... common courtesy is lost on him ...

For the first three years he did not provide health coverage as ordered ... now he's got it, but won't provide me copies of the medical insurance and prescription cards. He or his mother took the children out of state several times during the separation, in violation of the order.

I will gladly fight for fathers' rights, where warranted, but the only legislation I've heard about was criticized by domestic violence groups because of the broad spectrum of assumptions it includes, not allowing for the safety of DV victim mothers. Splitting a child's schedule in half may be the most "fair" by the numbers, but as long as it is shown to be more detrimental than them having a home with one parent, I can't be for it. There is not a chance I would agree to a week-to-week schedule in my case; we have that during the summer and it is NOT GOOD for them. They hear about something fun coming up and their first question is, "Where am I going to be?" I can't imagine living like that.

Pb & Jeff
I take my girls to Rainbows classes. See if there is one in your area. www.rainbows.org
It helps the kids identify and process their feelings. They are usually run by a local church and are free. All of our kids will say these things, and we need to learn how to deal with these comments as rational adults, not a hurting souls.

Jeff, I got the 50/50 crap spewed out at me last night. My kids tell me they don't want to go with dad, and he's obviously still angry he didn't get 50/50 (news to me). Somehow he believes I got the psychologist on "my side". My X was not a parent when we were together, and I still worry when my kids are with him (and thankful that grandma is around so much).

We will all hear different sorts of things because our children are hurt. They want an intact family like their friends. Unless we teach them to become emotionally healthy individuals, they are likely to repeat our mistakes. We are all doing the best we can do, and come here for help. Thankfully, there are many different views on these boards to help us determine the correct paths for us.

I looked up Rainbows the first time you suggested it, looooooong ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

They still don't have anything within a few hours of me.

I know how much it helps my kids and its like free counseling, so I don't miss a chance to mention it. I'm sorry there isn't one near you.
You can always ask your own church to sponsor it.

My X actually had the gall to say I was running the kids around too much between Rainbows (1 hour/week) and swimming (45 minutes/week). Our counselor said to go to Rainbows rather than counseling because the girls seemed to get more out of it. And X refuses to take them to counseling, so I just shrug off his comments.

I know how bad it feels when the kids say something like your son. And it means so much to have other adults who know how you feel and can talk you down from the emotions it draws up.
We are all doing the best we can do. And if we didn't care about our kids and ourselves, we wouldn't be here. As we are told so many times, the kids know the score. They see who does for them and who doesn't.

Buttercup,
There are good mothers and bad fathers and bad mothers and good fathers. I'm not implying that you or anyone else here is a bad mother and their ex is a good father or vice versa. What I am whinning about is that fathers, particullarly good ones, rarely get a fair shake in court. I'm sure your exH and his mommy are both giant buckets of horse feces.
We had an ad litem appointed by the court to represent our children. My youngest sat in his mother's lap in the ad litem's office and told the ad litem that he wants to live with me. My oldest took the the stand and told the judge that he wants to live with me. Night before last I was talking to my youngest on the phone as his mother was carrying him (he is physically handicapped) into another room and he told me he couldn't wait until his next weekend with me because he likes it better at home. My oldest wants to go back to court and again tell the judge he wants to live with me. The way Labor Day fell I had the kids 3 weekends in a row. The first weekend in a month that they were with there mother she left them with a friend so she could go spend the weekend with her boyfriend. My children are not happy with their mother. I am not happy with the every other weekend plan. My WxW does not want the kids, she just doesn't want me to have them.

Newly,
Thank you, I will check into it but I won't get my hopes up to high about it being offered anywhere around here.

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: deafjeff ]</small>

XPB,

I'd say:

"Oh? I'm sorry you feel that way, would you like to talk about it?

And let him feel safe to share openly with you about why he thinks your 'pure evil' with no comments from you like this--

"I told him that since he is biologically 1/2 me and 1/2 his dad, that I must be okay, since he is such a smart kid. He couldn't call himself 1/2 evil, so he relented. *g*)"


TR--I know if my parents would have said something like it certainly wouldn't have made me feel any safer sharing my thoughts and feelings--

I realize you were frustrated, but that doesn't give you the right to take out your frustrations on him (and I know you know that)but when you do--

you need to go back and apologize--and let them know your sorry that you snapped, there was no excuse for it, and what you should have done was just explained you would look at in a few minutes, when you were finished with what you were doing--and that way he would know you are interested in what he was wanting you to see, and
at the same time, teach him patience--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong> XPB,

I'd say:

"Oh? I'm sorry you feel that way, would you like to talk about it?

And let him feel safe to share openly with you about why he thinks your 'pure evil' with no comments from you like this--

"I told him that since he is biologically 1/2 me and 1/2 his dad, that I must be okay, since he is such a smart kid. He couldn't call himself 1/2 evil, so he relented. *g*)"


TR--I know if my parents would have said something like it certainly wouldn't have made me feel any safer sharing my thoughts and feelings--

I realize you were frustrated, but that doesn't give you the right to take out your frustrations on him (and I know you know that)but when you do--

you need to go back and apologize--and let them know your sorry that you snapped, there was no excuse for it, and what you should have done was just explained you would look at in a few minutes, when you were finished with what you were doing--and that way he would know you are interested in what he was wanting you to see, and
at the same time, teach him patience-- </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch.

I'm not sure this qualifies as "snapping".

It all depends on how XP's son felt about the exchange. Sounds to me like it was a little bit of a playful moment.

XP, I'm not sure you need to apologize... But a follow up conversation could be very important.

Sort of a "Hey, I've been thinking about what you said the other day. I'd really like to understand more how you are feeling about things."

What do you think about re-opening the door to check in with him and help him explore his feelings a little bit more?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just J:
<strong> "You're absolutely right, dear, but I'll be better after Halloween. Did I mention that I've decided to use live spiders in the decorations this year?" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">J --- that was just really WAY cool!!!

Hugs,

Jan

Telly,

"I told him that since he is biologically 1/2 me and 1/2 his dad, that I must be okay, since he is such a smart kid. He couldn't call himself 1/2 evil, so he relented. *g*)"

--I'm not sure this qualifies as "snapping".

I wasn't refering to this comment about the snapping--I was refering to if she snapped in the store---as she was already rushed and he was being insistant on her paying attention to him--

and this comment apparently came later but was still inappropriate, in my opinion--