Well, you may have followed my earlier thread and know H is moved out very suddenly, told kids he has a roommate but not that it is a girlfriend.

Tonite was the first night of many to come I fear. They are renting a house in the same neighborhood, so that H can be near the kids.
Pulled into the store parking lot with my daughter - there was H's car. "Its daddy's car -lets go see him!" I know there is a good chance he is with OW, so I keep on going and she wants to know why I didn't stop. I call him on his cell, say we are at the same store, whats the story, meaning, is it safe to come in? "We" are just leaving he says, on our way downtown (to party) Daughter asks me what is going on - she saw the car, saw me panic, wonders why she can't see daddy. I just blurted it out "Daddy has a girlfriend!". She started crying - I asked how she felt and she said "things were already bad, and this is horrible!" She asked if they were living together. I couldn't bear to admit it, was still horrified that I had blurted out the truth, which daddy had planned to reveal after they got over the initial shock that he has left mommy and kids, only 5 days ago. She asked "are they living together? I said, you need to ask your dad about that"...duh, just say "yes", mom!

Then I did something even worse. I told her that daddy was planning to tell her eventually, but that she shouldn't tell him that I told her -I said that if he asked her anything about last night and why we didn't stop, it was because mommy was mad at daddy. You know what she said? "Well, aren't you suppose to be mad at daddy? Isn't that what a normal person would be feeling?" Oh my - I have been acting sad but not mad, cause I didn't want my kids to take sides, per the advice of the child psychologist.

For a 10 year old, she's pretty astute. Then she seemed fine, excited about getting ready for her big preteen party tonite. I am a mess. One week ago, he moves in with OW, 3 days ago, I file the papers. Tonite we run into them ...almost. Its just a matter of time when that happens and we are face to face with daddy and his girlfriend. And now I am asking her to cover up my impulsive revelation.... I feel worse than ever. He has left us for her, and I am covering for him, thinking it was for the best interests of the kids, at least at this point. Then I realize that my behavior doesn't make any sense to her under the circumstances, she know something is up and I am hiding it, so I blurt out the truth, and she is hurt. Then I ask her to keep the secret until daddy is ready to tell them.

What the ....! I feel totally defeated tonite.
H with OW, said the wrong thing to my kid, then asked her to lie if necessary. How much worse can this get! Next week is mediation, and I fear things will go continuously downhill. But my whole motivation in being nice to daddy was to protect the kids from any animosity betweeen us, thinking it is more detrimental in the long run.

So H is out with OW - their first weekend night out on the town in public! Celebrating, I am sure. Probably at the favorite bars and hang outs we have always gone to as a happy couple up to only a month ago. And I feel so guilty about my daughter! At least she is talking to me, our 14 year old son is totally clammed up.

...and this is only going to get worse before its over. Bad to worse, to terrible to horrible.
And now, almost unbearable. And H is out celebrating his "coming out" with OW. Great.

Everhopeful,

Go back and talk to your daughter, let her know you were wrong to ask her to lie--and if she wants to talk to her dad about this she is more than welcome to do so--he is after all HER DAD--and she should be able to talk to him about anything--even how he's left HIS FAMILY--HER INCLUDED to live with HIS GIRLFRIEND--

She has every right to confront him--and she's probably already told her brother--

Now the fun begins--because daddy is going to have to be able to explain his own actions--YOU don't have too--

You were correct in telling her to talk to her dad about it--

I absolutely agree with ThornedRose.

Not only that, but I don't think you were wrong at all telling her the situation under the circumstances. No, you shouldn't have asked her to lie about telling her, and yes, it probably would have been better to sit down and have a conversation before the encounter (well, near encounter) took place. But you were trying to give him the chance to do the right thing and tell her himself. It is completely his own fault that he did not do it before the issue was forced by D's questions.

I would sit down, and do the whole "just because Mommy and Daddy aren't together doesn't mean you have to take sides - we still both love you, and you still love both of us" kind of conversation. And tell her you're sorry about asking her to lie, and that she shouldn't, you were wrong. And also tell her you're sorry she had to find out that way. Don't blame WH for not telling her, just say you're sorry it happened the way it did.

One final note too - take the pressure off of her. Tell her not to worry, that YOU will let WH know that she knows he has a girlfriend, then call him and tell him what happened. He may get mad at you, but better that than him getting mad in front of (and maybe even at) her when he finds out you told her. And that way she doesn't have to worry about how to approach dad with what she knows. Yes, she should talk to him about it - but without the pressure of revealing she knows what he should have already admitted.

Ideally, once you tell him she knows, he will initiate the conversation with her.... but we know they don't do the right thing in the fog, so don't expect it. Just tell her you'll make sure dad knows that she knows, and that beyond that, she and dad can discuss things. And that you're there too, and she can talk to you, and tell you anything. That she doesn't have to try and avoid the subject with you - she shouldn't have to worry about your feelings....

Wow, that was a lot more than I'd intended. I hope it all makes sense...

Everhopeful,

First, be kind to yourself. No self-criticism is necessary - except about asking your daughter to keep a secret. But you already know that.

The whole situation your H has created is bad. He created it; not you or your daughter. So he is experiencing fallout - laws of the universe. Cause and effect. Instant karma. He has the new love to cushion him. He goes home, snuggles with the new "roommate" and you're left dealing with the fallout of trying to avoid an encounter while not letting on to your 10 yr old daughter WHY you're trying to avoid an encounter.

And what was going on was so obvious and clear that your child saw it without any fog clouding her eyes.

Covering for your husband until he can tell your child "in his own way, in his own time" makes all the sense of opening up an umbrella to protect an assailant hacking at you with a machete from getting his clothes stained with the resultant blood spatter.

You did all you could. And you did just fine.

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

Yes, Belle, you're right. Thanks. I hope I didn't come across as criticizing in my earlier message. Because I didn't mean it that way at all.

EH, you did handle things very well under the circumstances. The only thing I was trying to say is that you might want to do a little damage control - not for WH's sake, because he should have to deal with the consequences - but for D's sake.

I'm just a little concerned that she might feel the burden of broaching the subject with her dad is on her, and that could be really tough for her at her age. So, I think you should run a little interference for her now, and make sure she knows that she won't be the one telling dad about her newly-acquired knowledge. Not to save him the embarassment, but to save her the pressure....

I think you did a good job handling it so far... I just think you need to take it a step further now so D doesn't have to be the 'adult' in her relationship with her dad.

Thanks for the replies. Things are getting worse and worse. H gave her a ride home from soccer this morning and drove by his new place to show her. Said too bad we don't have time to go in. Now some experts say that when a parent moves out its important to show the kids where they are living so its not just some vague place "out there" somewhere. But never told me he was going to do it, and didn't tell me he had done it although we spent the next couple of hours together talking about our "parenting" plan. We agreed on everything but exposiing her to OW. H says he doesn't want to hang out here, wants to be home with OW, she wants him home too, so the logical conclusion is to have the kids start their joint visitation arrangement ASAP. We see the mediator on this issue on Weds. My fear is that H will do whatever he wants, dispite any agreement or opinion of the mediator, court order or not. And what are the consequences? Take away his visitation? That would hurt the kids more than it would hurt him.

I feel totally defeated. H has made it very clear that his love for OW and allegiance to her, lets call it devotion, is first and foremost in his mind. This week has been the week from hell, between his coming home and moving out, filing papers, the incident last night and now this. A couple of hours ago I went to pieces thinking about them being together tonite, watching Sat.Night Live together like we do, watching football tomoorrow together like we do, going into town to go to the favorite bars that we go to etc etc etc. And I am talking less than a month ago, that we were still enjoying all this stuff as a married couple, even though this split was on the horizon. I just can't believe that he can get away with this, its like the fact that they are meant to be together justifies everything they have done. They are having all the fun that H and I used to have, only a few weeks ago. This is so hard for me to take.

OK - its only the first week of them living together. It will be quite a while before the honeymoon stage will wear off. The kids don't seem to be too bothered by this situation of dad being gone, to tell the truth, I am afraid that their desire to see and please their dad will override any concerns about OW. If dad likes her, they will like her, regardless of the fact that she is the prime reason our family has broken up. I don't think they will even come to that conclusion, and obviously I can't point this out without breaking some more rules about making them take sides, prejudicing them against her etc.

So many people predicted that the kids would be so upset with him. That the teenager would be really mad, the daughter an emotional mess. That they would see right through the pretense and figure out that dad left mom for another woman and this would result in them resenting their dad. Guess what - it didn't go down that way. I know its only one week into this, but looks to me like he will get away with it, regardless of the fact that this is not suppose to be the way you live your life, treat your wife of 14 years, traumatize the kids, which actually didn't happen. I can hear them both laughing in the next room, enjoying their lives like nothing is wrong. I asked my son if he was doing OK today and wanted to talk about anything, he said no. We talked about daddy living with a female roommate, and he still didn't seem perturbed. "How would you feel about staying with daddy at his place?" Just to test it out - the reply was just a shrug, like no big deal.

So on top of my hurting from the rejection, dying inside from thinking about them together, aching from the pain of filing papers to end our marriage, listening to him talk about how he wants to be faithful to her, like he never was with me, now I have to look at the very real possibility that he is going to get away with it all, with zero ramifications. I would never want my kids to hurt for no reason, and so I guess its better that they don't seem to be traumatized, but I can't help but feel that this is just not FAIR, and there is nothing I can do about it. Pain and fear, pain and fear seems to be the cycle. And its only the first week.

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Everhopeful ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by penguin:
[QB] I hope I didn't come across as criticizing in my earlier message. Because I didn't mean it that way at all.

penguin, I don't think you came off as criticizing. Nor would I be critical of how EH handled this. I wouldn't even be critical if EH were to have tracked the unholy couple down in the mall, and gone in swinging a bag of week old kittylitter at the two of them,her H and the OW. It seems clear that EH handled this whole thing very well.

Everhopeful,

Yes, you H gave her a ride home and 'drove' past his place--but you seem to forget--he didn't stop and take her in, he didn't stop to introduce her to his gf--

now, when they finally go over there and see daddy and his 'gf' sharing a room--and are not 'just' roommates--I honestly believe things with the kids will change for the kids--it happens 99.9% of the time--

And your right, it doesn't matter what the mod says--your husband will do whatever he wants to do no matter what the mod says--why?? because it's what the OW wants--and in order to please her--he will give in--

And your right, it is ONLY the first week of them living together--and the honeymoon stage will end--now, when he wants to talk to you about things other than the kids--and he will-- DO NOT
get involved in those conversations--EVER--just remind him he has someone else to talk to about those thing now--and it is to painful for you to talk to him like nothing has changed--but maybe one day that will change--

And as you said--it has only been a week that dad has moved out--and the realities of this for your kids haven't set in yet--

When they are going to dad's house--and not him not coming home anymore--it will begin to hit them--

-- "How would you feel about staying with daddy at his place?" Just to test it out - the reply was just a shrug, like no big deal.--

TR--And don't take the shrugs to mean no big deal--look for other signs as well--look for signs of depression--

I would also suggest that you start getting together with friends and going out to do things with them--if you have some lady friends to go with--go--and don't let the possibility of running into your stbxh prevent you from going to your old hang outs--let him see you out with other people laughing and having a good time without him---let him see you moving on with your life as well--

the best revenge is a life well lived--and as he still loves you--when he see's you out dancing with some other man--it will effect him--even if he's with her--why?? because he still loves you--
more than he realizes--

and your response to any comments made by him--
is that he has no say in what you do with your life--who you go out with, who you dance with, or even in who you bring or don't bring to your home--

When he brings the OW over to your home and he will, because she will want to be a part of the pickup the kids thing to make sure he isn't 'taking' to long--you do not have to invite her into your home--you can let him know--do not bring this woman in your home--she's not welcome there--

It will also be big shock to his system when he's paying you child support, and if you can get it--
spousal support--and also paying his expenses living w/ OW--and I'd venture to guess he will try and fight for custody at that point--

If you think the kids are affected, find a counselor for them. Someone they can trust can talk over their feelings.
Or try www.rainbows.org

Children will figure it out for themselves.

EH,
I am by no means an expert, but I am a teacher that deals with kids daily. I think you are doing a great job with the kids. I know that anger and hurt you are feeling, but let the kids decide how they feel. I have had many children discuss their home life with me and I am never ceased to be amazed at how they interupt things. I think it is ok to show emotion to them, cry if you are feeling sad, but never talk bad about their dad. Not that you are. Kids see more than we think and they want their parents together. I would talk to them, answer their questions calmly and let them make up their mind. I don't think they are going to be happy about dad's new gf and they will let him know. You just need to be the better parent and be the stable one for them. Best wishes and stay strong

Thanks for these replies. I feel like I have done a good job letting the kids know that I am sad about this situation, without blaming dad. I am on a business trip for two days, they are staying with friends.
Before I left, I gave them hugs and told them they could call me or daddy on our cell phones anytime. I also said if you talk to daddy, tell him I love him and miss him, and when I said this, I cried a little. This is about as close as I come to sending the message to them that this is an unhappy situation for me, that I am hurting without daddy. No ranting and raving, but I don't want to pretend that this is OK.

I also told them that if they are unhappy about this situation, its OK to says this to daddy too. Not to put words in their mouths, but I know they are totally making nice with daddy. As my daughter told me, "I don't like this very much, but I am going to have as much fun with daddy as I can when I am with him"

We see the mediator tomorrow regarding the parenting issues. H knows what I am proposing - the 6 month rule before they are exposed to OW, and has already told me he will argue against it. I know that the morality of the situation is not a consideration, its what might be harmful and what should be in the best interests of the kids. 1) he just moved out a week ago and this was sudden news to the kids 2) he is already living with his girlfriend who they don't know about 3)she is his affair partner this time and 4 years ago 4)the kids were exposed to her first time around and probably remember her, daughter especially, and she has been asking questions about daddy's Asian girlfriend - when did it happen? Is it over now? This was before the move in. 5) they have just moved in together, and their relationship needs time to prove it is stable before exposing the kids to it.

Those are my justifications - hope the mediator agrees and tells my H that this is the best plan of action. If H doesn't agree, we may have to take this point to court. I have no idea what my odds are, only know what seems realistic and fair to me under the circumstances.

Everhopeful,

I know that at first it APPEARS as if the WS is "getting away with it" because from the outside view, they have an exciting new lovenest with an exciting new love, and the children do not confront their parent and get all upset.

HOWEVER...

...no matter how it may appear from the outside, on the inside they are not "getting away with it." The relationship with their soulmate can not possibly prosper and thrive because it is based on lying and cheating and dishonesty. If your WS was lied and cheated and was dishonest with YOU--he will lie and cheat and be dishonest with HER too. Pretty soon he will start to realize that he has an obligation to you and his children even if he chooses to be with lovergirl, and pretty soon he will start to realize that when lovergirl doesn't get her way, that she complains and b1tches too.

(Amazing, isn't it? WS's tell BS's "...well THEY understand me and THEY doesn't yell at me..." but of course WS's forget that if they treated the OP with emotional abuse and neglect, cheated on OP, and then lied about it--the OP would yell too!! DUH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Meanwhile, the WS becomes spiritually void because they can not face that what they are doing is just plain wrong--the WS becomes emotionally and mentally abusive to their former S and neglectful of their children--the WS becomes emotionally and mentally injured themself because the OP can not possibly supply all their emotional needs--the WS becomes financially damaged because they have to support two households--and life is going downhill. It doesn't happen overnight (or in one week) but it does happen.

Simultaneously, the BS CAN become spiritually mature because they face the ways that they contributed and learn and grow from it--the BS CAN become emotionally and mentally mature toward their former S and the foundation of security for their children--the BS CAN become emotionally and mentally stronger themself because they realize that they are personally responsible for their own choices and the BS can get their needs met on their own--the BS CAN become financially self-reliant and increase financially because they have the opportunity to better themself, re-enter the career world, and depend upon themself. It doesn't happen overnight (or in one week) but it does happen.

Sooooo...that is why people say that the WS doesn't get away with it. It takes TIME, and at first it APPEARS from the outside as if the WS is "getting away with it" but it is an appearance only. It is not deep, true intimacy.

*****

Now, let me give you a real-life example.

My exH left us for one of his OW in 1999. From 1999-2002, I tried to save the M and follow MB principles, and he tried to continue to be unfaithful with other women and hide it from me. Thanksgiving 2002 I found yet another OW (the one with whom he is still sometimes in touch), and he moved out. At first, he lived in a hotel and was on a one night stand (ONS) binge, but within about a couple months he had half the household furniture and stuff, a new townhome, a good job with a good paycheck, and FREEDOM! I had two kids to feed and care for by myself, a mortgage and all his bills, only half a household of furniture and stuff, a big house I couldn't take care of, no job or way to pay any of it, and what felt like a millstone of responsibility.

The last OW that he left us for, is still messing around with him, but she's also still married and won't leave her H. Her H is so sick of it all that he doesn't care. She has 4 kids from 2yo to 14yo, and my exH DISLIKES kids and has to watch them. He can't take her to all those romantic places and buy her gifts and little "just becauses" anymore because he now (after fighting it and refusing) has to pay child support...and she doesn't like that. They are "just friends" now and he's mad at her because she just blows him off. He lost his great office job due to his raging and anger, and now works 80-90 hrs/wk. in a restaurant standing all day doing hard work that is slowing killing him. He has AGED, lost weight in a bad way, and does not look good.

Simultaneously, it was rough at first and there were lots of nights I cried myself to sleep, but gradually I got it together. I started off with foodstamps and workfare, and with some help creating a resume etc., I did eventually find a pretty good job. About then, I also started to get child support, so I was doing okay (not fabulous, but okay). Then the kids and I found a townhome that we all liked and agreed on, and we moved (monthly payment went WAY down!). We all decided to dedicate our home to serenity and respect, and in fact we even did a housewarm dedication! I started to grow spiritually and in faith, so I prayed for a better job that would be where I'm supposed to be. Lo and behold, I went into a little shop called For Heaven's Sake that sells angels and heavenly stuff, and they needed some help...so I prayed about it and decided to work there. Just two weeks ago, I got promoted to store manager; I'm on a salary with no ceiling (as the store's sales increase, so does my salary); and I'm in a supportive, encouraging environment where they are HELPING me grow in my career and spiritually. I have aged too, but I look more like myself than ever before, and I am FINALLY comfortable in my own skin!

And finally...my kids. My kids love their own dad and want to have a relationship with him. My kids felt angry with him for just leaving them, and they held most of it in (it's not safe to tell him how they feel). My kids wanted him to want them, and he didn't, and that hurt them A LOT--irrepairable damage. My kids make the effort to have a relationship with their father, but he doesn't put them ahead of his work or his OW and they know it. It just hurts them to have to say that out loud. My kids see that their dad can not be with them for more than a few days (or else he explodes), so they have short visits and one-night overnights to see him. My kids do not "embrace" the OW but they have learned to deal with her fairly civilly and they have also learned to like her kids (after all, the kids are "innocent"). Since their dad left, he has just blown them off, not shown up, or picked a fight with them enough times that they are growing sick of it and know that he is not someone they can depend on...he'll promise "if you do this I'll do that" and then he won't deliver. They SEE it for themselves.

It just all takes TIME, Everhopeful.


CJ