Hi - In the last 48 hours I have decided to move on from my M as I had an epiphany of sorts. WS is not a "bad person", and after a relatively short plan B (approx 2 weeks), I realised that the relationship has been one way for a very long time. Whilst not the perfect husband, everything that I did was with my WS / us in mind.

after much reading I think I was guilty of "loving too much" and as a result being that I was / was seen to controlling / emotionally abusive. The emotional abuse comes mainly as a result of the constant frustration of not having my sxual and EN's met for a very long time (no excuse for emotional abuse).

Most would say I have come to this decision to leave after an almost non existant plan B and you are probably right.

Even though I see the heartache and lack of garauntees in continuing with WS and our M, why is it that I continue to vascillate between knowing I am doing the right thing and wondering why I am doing this? How can I stop feeling like this?

It's so confusing? Some days it's so obvious, and others you begin wondering about your sanity for making the decision which is to try to heal and safegaurd yourself?

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

RenaissanceMan,

First, just so you know, I just can't call you RM because it reminds me of old 2long's OM!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Second, I TOLD YOU it was slower here on D/D, didn't I?? heehee.

RenaissanceMan, you are asking why you vascillate between your decision to D and the alternative of waiting for your WS--right?? That's the gist of it anyway. Well, let me share with you an analogy: Divorcing is like cutting off your arm.

You have gangrene in your arm, and if you ignore it, you will die. The only way to stop the gangrene is to cut off your arm. You go through a few stages (kind of similar to the stages of grief):

1) NO!! You RESIST. You don't want to lose your arm so you deny it as long as you can. Then, you learn about every technique OTHER than cutting off your arm. You try herbs, radiation, pills, and voodoo. Nothing works and slowly your mind accepts that you will be losing your arm.

2)YOU GRIEVE THE LOSS. You are going to lose something precious to you! You will never play catch with your son again. Your piano playing days are over. You are going to lose so much, and it's going to be sad and hurt! Slowly you mind accepts that a loss is necessary and you make a decision.

3) YOU REACH A DECISION AND ACT ON IT. The amputation surgery is scheduled. Penicillin is administered to avoid infection. Insurance forms are filled out. You are prep'ed and shaved and ready to go. Your decision is firm and you will miss your arm, but you know it's for your own good.

4) WANDERING IN THE VALLEY OF INDECISION. You are wheeled into the O.R., and the surgeon makes initial incisions. You are shocked to see that the surgeon takes out a SAW to cut off your arm!! A SAW!!! Part of you goes, "WHOA!! Hold up there! I think I better reconsider!" So you vascillate back and forth between "this was a dumb idea!" and "I have to do this or I will die!" Many people get STUCK here for years, wandering around like the old Israelites in the desert--stuck in indecision.

5) YOU PUT INDECISION ASIDE AND MOVE AHEAD. One way or the other a definitive decision has to be made, and sometimes its just on the flip of a coin, but one way or the other, you reach a CONCLUSION. You are done being indecisive, and you MOVE FORWARD. You complete the surgery and you survive the gangrene. You heal from that. Then you start amputee therapy and you mentally and physically survive that. Then you start adapting to life with one arm and you find it's not so bad. Oh, now and then you miss your arm, but you've found that it's just as fun to AMAZE your son's friends that you can throw and catch WITH THE SAME ARM!!!! You find you can write with your left hand--it's just a little bit messier than your right hand was. You find left-handed can openers and scissors. Life isn't bad AT ALL. You adjust.


Can you tell where you are in that analogy??


CJ

CJ - Thank you, your post is extremely relevant and very well thought out ..

Yes it is slower here on the dark side of the fence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's scary but I have used almost this exact analogy to justify my seeming haste to my family and friends. But coming fromm an independant source such as yourself it slaps some sense into me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

To answer you question as to which stage I am in, well I think I am right between Stage 4 and 5.

I love the title that you chose for stage 4, "WANDERING IN THE VALLEY OF INDECISION". This is so apt for how I have been feeling of late.

At the moment I am / have been in a major "down" mood for over a week and have been struggling to make the "lonliness birds" fly away. It feels like I have a knife in my gut and it is being slowly but regularly twisted.

Your description of stage 4 is right on the money..

I know WW is also in a down phase, especially after I have stated she is not to contact me any more unless it's an emergency. I have to let go about caring for her..
Anyway thanks for the advice!!

PS: I read 2llongs post and agree ;-) Maybe R-man is better..

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

R-man,
CJ is right on the money. Its also like a roller coaster, up and down. And whooopeee ain't it fun? When I had my "epiphany" it was like a huge weight was taken off my shoulders. I said right out loud "Why the he!! would I even want her back.". I still rode the roller coaster some but it slowed down and straightened out and the weight came and went some but never as heavy as it was and didn't stay long. Things really do get better.

RM

I have not read this board or posted for about 18months now.

I discovered H's infidelity Jan 2000 and divorced Nov 2003. I tried plan A and plan b but to no avail. I feel that sometimes this programme helps us to grow as a person and we change. Deep down there are elements of us which are still the same and therefore don't want a divorce but we change, we become stronger. No one can tell you or advise to whether it is right to divorce or not. The truth is you will probably waver between the two decisions for a while. But you will come to the right decisions.

MB helps us to look at ourselves as well as our marriage. It teaches us to accept ourselves and in a way be happy with ourselves. No one can make us happy but they can share in our happiness. I can honestly say that I am happy with myself and with the life I am leading but it did take a long time. Stick in there and listen to your own gut feelings. You are worth something and you will come to the right decision.

Take care of yourself

annie

Sorry to threadjack, but I'm an Annie H. too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

PS: I have no idea why I feel so guilty about moving on. I'm ambivelent about the whole thing. Hence, my 1.5 year separation with the sloth-paced divorce.

DJ, annie h, and GG - Thank you. From what you are telling me it's part of the road we must travel. Wondering if you are taking a wrong turn along the way is normal.

Wouldn't it be great if there were sign posts telling you exactly where to go. Well I guess that is what MB does to some extent, it sign posts the many possible routes and it's up to you to select the most suitable path.

Thanks again folks. I am sure I will ask for this to be confirmed in the months ahead.

If you feel guilty for moving on it means you are not ready to move on yet.
So, don't move on yet. Don't do anything about that till it comes, either way, except work on yourself, to be pleased with that new person you are becoming...

RenaissanceMan,

I would say that your short plan B makes the transition a little tougher.

I don't recall ever actually making the decission to move on, it just seemed to happen. I don't even know if or when I went from plan A to plan B. I just know that over the last year, I've seperated myself from STBXW gradually. None of it was fun and most of it was hard, but time did tend to make it get easier eventually.

Hang in there. better things will come.

WIWH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
<strong> Yes it is slower here on the dark side of the fence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee, I feel a little like we're on the dark side of the moon here! heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> It's scary but I have used almost this exact analogy to justify my seeming haste to my family and friends. But coming fromm an independant source such as yourself it slaps some sense into me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any time you need to be slapped I volunteer! I am also willing to handle all spankings and cracking the whip. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>At the moment I am/have been in a major "down" mood for over a week and have been struggling to make the "lonliness birds" fly away. It feels like I have a knife in my gut and it is being slowly but regularly twisted. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear brother, OF COURSE you are in a down mood--you are mourning losing your arm! Some of your personal identity was being a two-armed person, and you now have only one arm! It changes who you are and who you THINK of yourself as. You are a right-handed man with only a left arm!!

My suggestion to you is two-fold. 1) Do not try to make the "loneliness birds" fly away--instead, embrace the loneliness and walk with it. By that, I mean do not try to avoid feeling lonely or numb the feeling--instead, allow yourself to really feel those feelings and get to know them and become comfortable with it. If you can come THROUGH the loneliness, you will find that it has no power over you--if you continue to avoid the loneliness, it will overpower you. One kind of fun thing I did once to help realize that "alone" is not so bad is to list the "top ten reasons it's good to be by myself." Here are a few examples to whet your whistle: 1) I can leave my socks in the middle of the living room, and no one yells at me! 2) I do not have to make my bed if I don't want to. 3) I can wear sweats and be comfortable in them without trying to be beautiful. 4) I can paint my walls red if I like red. 5) I can eat cereal for dinner. (You get the idea.)

2) Work on the emotional abuse stuff. You mentioned in some of your other posts that you thought perhaps you were emotionally abusive to your spouse. I'm not going to decide that for you, but if that is your conviction, I would suggest that you take some time to investigate that dynamic AND investigate how you can grow as a man so you can respond to a significant other without emotionally abusing them. Maybe an anger management class would be appropriate, and before you say, "I'm not ANGRY" let me just mention that an anger management class offers you TOOLS AND TECHNIQUES for appropriately expressing anger and for having healthy, respectful disagreements.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>PS: I read 2llongs post and agree ;-) Maybe R-man is better.. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">R-man it is! I hope to NEVER confuse ratmeat with our dear brother Renaissance Man!

TTFN.


CJ

Believer, I'm not sure that feeling guilty is a sign I shouldn't move on. I feel guilty for marrying him. I married him because I wanted ot get married, and because, gasp, I was working out issues I had with my own father. My TBX is 17.5 years older than me.

I feel guilty because TBX can't see the kids as often as he'd like. And I feel guilty that I need child support as some kind. If I could, I wouldn't take a dime from the man.

All in all, I don't think guilty feelings are a good indicator. I think a sense of peace or inevitability is a better indicator of readiness to move on. I do have the peace about my decision to live apart from TBX for the rest of my life. I'm not sure I have it about the divorce.

R-Man, and others,

I am new to this whole divorce site, but I am not new to the situation of a cheating spouse. My H had a child from his affair. I have been toiling with this for the past year now and have recently filed for a Divorce.

I understand the rollercoaster that you are speaking of because I go through it about once a week. I have come to the decision that I am making the right choice for me and my kids. My H still admits that he has had the affair but does nothing to correct the problem and has not for a year now. he is verbally abusive when he doesn't get his way and he feels like he is getting mistreated because I am no longer waiting for him to come to his senses.

Since filing he now wants to come home, but I am past that because nothing has changed. He left my bed for hers and lives with her and now wants to return to me. for what? Do we have STUPID written all over our face? sorry for the rant, but back to the point - I believe or agree with greengables and the others it is like the one arm analogy. The demographics may change, and so may we, but it will get better as time passes. As time passes the decisions and choices we make also become much clearer/brighter.

This is at least what I am hoping. I did not really realize that men have the same feelings toward these things as women. It is comforting for me to see all of the men taking the positions that you are taking for the health of your well being. I am glad and always believed that there were some GREAT men out there!

I'm hoping that I have not missed out on the love that some of you seem to have given your significant others...... My H is a lost soul and will continue to do this to whomever he is with!
I WANT BETTER FOR MYSELF and my kids.

Thank you for the inspiration,
(all of you)

JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: JT2 ]</small>

Folks - What a great bunch of postings. Thanks for all the feedback / advice, I feel better today as a result of of having realised that these are normal emotions.

Belonging to Nowhere - Maybe you are right and it is too early to move on, but at present it seems the only sensible / safe thing to do.

WishI WereHome - Thanks I will take strength from what you have said (i.e. time makes it easier).

FaithfulNewCJ - well I might just take you up on the spanking offer, never can have too much discipline <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I wouldn't hasve though to embrace the loneliness birds, but what you say makes sense. Anyway the birds have decided to nest above my bed at the moment, so I'd better become friends with them, for a little while, anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JT2 - reading your posting gives me strength / inspiration / courage. Our situations are similar except you have the added concern of children. I am certain that you, like the rest of us, will find that special person, but only when you / God / the universe know that you are truly ready.
It is frustrating that the WS's seem to reach out for you only once you have taken that leap of faith and are in freefall. Who kow's, maybe thaey sense that we are ready to move on, which shocks them into realising their loss.

Again people, thanks for the support and the great advice. R-Man

How are you doing, RM?

Just checking on you and hope you are okay.

SS - Good to hear from you and thanks for asking. I am doing OK. WS has been coming to her senses and does seem to be of the realisation that life as my W was a lot better than she portrayed it too herself, not to mention that the grass is not always greener on the other side. WS also realised that she has basiaclly sacrificed her M whilst OP has sacrificed nothing!!.

I have been helping her get herself together and doing a lot of things for her that I really don't need to and she has admitted she knows this. WS is very depressed and does not like herself very much, this is so very obvious and tragic. Silly ol' me is still taking her problems on board and not necessarily healing me (which is the reason I asked WS to move out).
Q- Is this a normal emotion for me (the BS) to be feeling, as opposed to hate / anger or resentment which I feel would be more appropriate?

I guess that on some level I know that I have contributed to these / WS's problems and maybe that is why I have been helping her more than I probably should.

Some of my family and friends are really against me helping and or even reconcilling with her in the future. Not that it should matter what they think, but they have been there for me through all of this, and I do value there somewhat biased opinions.

I will probably get flamed for this next paragraph but it's "my humble opinion" and this is what I have discovered / realised from my own actions.
My advice to any BS going through the discovery of an A, or trying to stop an ongoing A (plan's A or B) would be;
* Be extremely careful who you tell
* What you tell
* How much detail you give
* How much bias you place on your version
as it could make it very difficult to try an reconcile later on with all these negative emotions from family and friends who have ridden the rollercoaster with you. You definitely need to tell and talk to people, but I feel that the choice of people outside of professionals, boards like MB and a few close friends needs to be very carefully thought out. Most people tend to be a little small minded (as was I before going through it) about WS's and what they deserve.



I will paste inGQII section as I think it's worth noting / debating for people that are newbies.

Again, just my opinion.

Thanks R-Man

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Q- Is this a normal emotion for me (the BS) to be feeling, as opposed to hate / anger or resentment which I feel would be more appropriate? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A- If its not normal there are alot of us abnormal BS's out there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Some of us are just good people no matter what <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi RM,

I am glad to hear you are okay.

It sounds as if WS is coming to her senses. I guess it is good that you are helping her...I know I would probably do the same thing, but I have learned some important lessons lately about that topic--the concept of giver and taker. According to MB principles, we all have giver and taker within us. If we give and give and give, eventually our taker rises up and wants to be heard. I have also learned that as much as I have given and given and given in my M, sometimes all it did was bred resentment. So I guess my point is be careful about helping too much.

It makes sense in Plan A, but please keep yourself protected in Plan B. You do not have to shortchange yourself or shield your WS from the consequence of her actions. I am a classic rescuer type myself and again all I did was bred resentment, spoil WH and get myself hurt in the process. I take a different tact now...I listen, I do not respond and I let H thrash about and am sympathic, but I don't always rescue. Don't get me wrong, if he were on fire, I would put him out...I think?!!! You do not have to always be available to WS esp. to pick up pieces. I think it makes them think and appreciate you to not always have you there.

As far as telling others, I understand your point. My tendency was to tell family and friends everything bad that was happening in my M because I wanted them to hate my H....pretty easy to do under the circumstances. SH recommended that I tell my support group about positive things that H did also so it would balance things out. I understand what you mean though...it is almost like crying wolf. You want to bring pressure to expose A...but it is such a roller coaster that sometimes...you feel like saying...it's on....no, it's off...no, it's on again.....so I agree...have a support group, but it is hard to give the play by play because it changes so often. If our support group knew it all, they would think the WS an idiot and us an idiot for tolerating them. I limit sometimes what I say and try to balance it out. In the long run, I consider myself and you and so many others here....faith, loving spouses that have much to proud of at the end of the day and in our lives.

My favorite quote that keeps me going...."A whole life is more than one experience." As tragic as this is, I am more than these few months and this experience...however it turns out.....and you too are more than just this bump in the road.

You say that you are helping her more than you should...question...what is keeping you from not helping her or helping her less? You don't need to if you don't want to...esp. if it hurts you. In Plan B, protect and heal of you. If it hurts to help WS, then don't do it or do it less. It sounds as if you realize you are hurting yourself by helping WS, but cannot stop. How about limiting it so you can focus on you?

Plan B helped me get my strength back because I removed myself from the craziness and treated myself well. Best advise I ever got about Plan B was treat yourself like a queen...well in your case it would be a king. I regained my power and you should also just in case you have a change of heart. RM, save yourself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway...God bless you, RM and may he give us his grace as he guides us on this journey. Take care.

ss

RM,

I was going to ask you if you "journal"? I keep meaning to post a thread on this, but have not gotten around to it.

You are a good writer and good at putting your thoughts down on paper. I have journalled most of my adult life and it helps me to sort out my feelings. I write out my thoughts. I write to God. I vent. I hope. I work out problems.

It can be really simple. nothing fancy. I just get a binder at the store. My has pockets so I save articles and postings to give me inspiration and keep me going. I have a posting of yours in there! On Dday, I started a journal and have filled four since then. I carry it with me everywhere and write down all kinds of stuff.

Maybe this idea will help you to heal. I know it helped me and just wanted to pass on the idea. Take care, RM.

Hi SS - Good to hear from you. I hope life is treating you better at the moment?

Excellent suggestion, I have started a diary / journal. I dump all my thoughts into it at the end of most days. I find that most of the ramblings in it though are about my WS and our situation. Not sure if thats a good or bad thing at present. I am both touched / and honoured that you have one of my postings in your journal.

I have allowed WS to temporarily break my no contact rule with me. She was so messed up that I just didn't have the heart to black her out any longer. I have been helping her to setup in her new abode and am feeling quite good about myself as a result. As far as I can tell, there has been no contact between herself and OP, as he is trying to save his M.

WS is coming out of the fog a litle more each day. But as for long term prospects, I am not sure how WS is feeling, nor how I will feel about that possibility. She is carrying a deep sense of shame, guilt, very low self esteem and tells me she misses me all the time. Why tell me now, and not a few months ago ?(probably because OP was there for her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Once WS is setup I am going dark again. I need to heal myself (whatever that means <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Regarding the journal, I was wondering if it is normal to see 95% of the stuff in the journal about WS? How long is this likely to be like this before I start to write about other things? Anyone here know

For me, the answer is to NOT write in a journal. Once, in the past, I kept a journal when things were not going well for me - and it had the effect of keeping me focused on the past - and on negative thoughts - instead of moving forward. I was in worse emotional shape when I was writing in that journal. But that's just me.

I too am feeling bad about moving forward. I go back and forth - but basically I just do NOT feel like my H and I should have ended up here. The more we talk, the more convinced I am that we were not communicating (which is different from not agreeing on things). I find it incredibly sad and don't think that will ever change. At the same time, I know as long as he is unwilling to revisit his decision, all the sadness in the world won't change a thing - so I am moving on. But the sadness keeps resurfacing and the roller coaster continues.

I feel like I'm living the movie Groundhog Day. Trying to find a way out of the rut. I guess we just have to have faith that things will get better. And that it will probably be a long haul.