I don't know if I can fulfill my husband's needs. I understand the concept of doing this, but my husband has such BIG needs. I am not the person that he wants me to be and he punishes me for this by his words and actions. Since his affair 2 years ago I am just not good enough.(don't think I ever was actually) He blames me for not being in love with me and I can't stand it any longer. I am not responsible for his feelings. We've known eachother since childhood and were very close friends before dating and getting married.(we just had our 12th anniversary) He needs me to be an "equal partner". I don't know what that is for sure and he won't tell me because he says I would understand if I was an equal partner!!! Also his sexual needs are too much for me. I'm really not that interested and also his behavior toward me turns me off. Am I supposed to meet his sexual needs even if I feel like I'm being assaulted in a way and I really don't want it 2 times a day? I'm more of a 1x a week or maybe 2 if I feel better toward him for some reason. Also he is interested in doing things that I don't want to do every time. What ever happened to just good old fashioned sex? Even if I fulfilled his sexual needs, his emotional needs even he doesn't think I can take care of. Also he doesn't even try to fulfill any of my needs. Tonight he told me " well I will have to find it somewhere". Is sex really that important to men? I'm tired of giving and never receiving. I'm confused about all this give and take stuff. Why am I always the only one giving? Any suggestions before it's too late?

Hi MP22. I think I know what you mean about your husband's needs...I think I understand that kind of person...and maybe what he means. Let me try and explain...and maybe others can help.

First off...equal partner. To me this can mean many things...on the surface it is probably exactly what it sounds to be...and equal partner. Someone that shares all the responsibilities in life, shares the fun, the pain, the successes and the failures. Now clearly he can't mean that you should always be doing the same thing as him...physically, job, etc. But perhaps you can be doing similar kinds of things? Are you a traditional christian woman? Do you feel like your place is in the home with the children and his is working to provide for the family? Do you feel that he should be responsible for providing everything for the family? What do you do for him that is something he would not do on his own? FOr example, if you could imagine your husband single, what do you think you bring to him and his life? Do you pull him in directions he would not go alone? Do you share a connection with his heart, mind, and soul that he can not find elsewhere?

That might be part of an explanation of equal partner. I would suspect that when he says you'd understand it if you were...he's probably NOT trying to put you down...rather perhaps he has a hard time explaining exactly what he means.

Too many people, equal partner would mean totally different things...so it is hard to say what your H means.

As far as sex...Yes, men do seem to show a larger interest in sex than woman do. ALthough, some woman might surprise you. It is hard for me to give advice on this topic...I am a man...I enjoy sex. Twice a day, everyday, not sure I could keep up with that...but I suspect if your relationship has tensions regarding sex...it can spill over to other things. As a man, it is frustrating to have a partner that doesn't enjoy sex. It is disappointing to know that so many things I might want to try, to explore, to experience, to give to you, to share together...it hurts to know that my partner has no interest in these things. Its like being told NO YOU CAN NEVER IN YOUR LIFETIME EXPERIENCE THESE THINGS BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO AND I FORBID YOU TO DO IT....EVER. Those are kinda strong, definite, and very ending words to something that might be of interest to your husband.

Sex is many things...there is true making love, which perhaps you too have never experienced if your relationship is as you say. There is f__king, which perhaps is what you are now doing for your husband...against your desires. It is not always the same (emotionally) and there is a time, I think, for all kinds of intimacy. But perhaps you should consider it from hubby's point of view. How would you like it if the tables were turned? How would you feel if you KNEW that he didn't enjoy it? That he wasn't interested in pleasing you? How would that make you feel? That he was just going through the motions...kinda like a "mercy f__k".

It sounds to me that perhaps you are misinterpreting hubby's comments, critisims, and actions. Sure, sounds like he was responding to a bit of reject when he said "I'll have to find it somewhere". You say hubby had an affair 2 years ago? Was it a simple affair? Was it sex based? Were you two having problems? Did you both know it? Talk about it? Was it in the open? Were you seeking counseling? Where you trying to improve things? Or were things at such a horrible dead stand-still that nobody cared? Nothing would help? I know, I have been there before...

I hope other people can read these two posts and provide some useful comments. Unlike what you may think, there's nothign more than I want to fall in love with my wife. You always seem to brush my comments off...at least the one you don't want to hear or don't care to believe. But how quickly you jump on those that are said in a moment of rejection (albeit rather frequently indeed).

Oh, by the way, mp22 is my wife! Please all, comment...assist...say what you think might help. DOn't be shy...please.

Hi!
Glad to read bp22's post. When I got married the first time I thought that sex was just to be tolerated occasionally. I've since learned that in order for my husband to show me that I am the apple of his eye, I need to show him physically that he is to me.
It's kind of weird for me to write about this, but the nice thing about it is none of us know eachother in person-so its alright!
If I neglect my husband, he gets crabby, selfish etc.. When I compliment him on his looks and his intelligence he's putty in my hands. When I give him lots of sex and the Victoria's Secret stuff, he'll do anything that I ask. And yes, there are differant types of sf. Some is more lovemaking and some is more physical depending on the moment.
When I become not interested in it and think of it as a chore, I remind myself of the posts that I read about women who would do anything to get there husband's away from that OW. Then I thank God for my husband being faithful.
I enjoy sf more the more often I have it. If I didn't have it for a month, I probobly wouldn't miss it much. I think men are for the most part differant-they would miss it alot! And build resentments for their wife who could provide it but won't.
Try giving more sf and after about a month or so, see if he is more considerate to your needs. Sometimes when your"the wife and mom" its hard to be very amorous but it can make all the differance to a man.

Now remember bp22, if your wife increases the sf in your marriage (as suggested by ezra), you will need to do your part as well. I believe your wife mentioned in her post that she feels like she is always giving and never receiving. Does this mean that she is not reaching orgasm? If not, you need to find out what does it for her. When both partners are on the receiving end you will find sf to be that much better. Good luck.

chuckle chuckle...I'll let mp22 reply to that. But I don't think that's an issue...LOL

Higher frequency isn't really going to matter to me...attitude and desire will (well, maybe I shouldn't say it won't matter...LOL). Not sure that can change. I am married, I think, to the only woman on Earth that doesn't enjoy any foreplay...."just get right to it"...I couldn't be any more different. She's as sensual, I'd say, as concrete....I'd say stone but granite is more sensual! I think she associates anything besides direct intercourse as "slutty"...religion based...hence there is nothing. But she'll deny this too...yet has NO interesting in pleasing me. With sex, she is EXTREMELY selfish...like no where else in her life. I'd do anything...but her favorite is abstainance! LOL I'd rather go without than sense that she is not enjoying things...and go without I have. Maybe 10 times a year during my 20's....maybe. We must be extremely fertile to have produced 3 daughters...all planned.

I'll say it for her..."not much interest when I am treated so poorly". Well, frankly, I don't think mp22 is treated poorly. I think I do talk about what is wrong (probably too much), the things I miss and long for (no, not sexual things...) And she takes all these comments as a direct personal attack I think...but they are not intended that way. Yes, they are indeed describing personal traits I would like to share with her, so of course in some sense this is personal....but I don't mean any attack or harm. How else do you communicate? I often think she'd prefer me to be quietly discontent...you know, like most other couples....but that's not for me.

I speak of the circle we are in...and honestly, I don't know of anything I can do to break the circle. I mention this to her...and she gets livid pretty fast. It's NOT her fault, nor mine, I don't assign blame or finger point...i'm well beyond that. Sometimes I think people are just not compatible...you are not attracted to everyone you meet, and certainly decisions made at age 12 and 32 are based on different things...imagine that. (I decided I'd marry mary at 12 and never looked back...married at 20....she 24) I call it a "fundamental" issue of compatability. Neither of us would be attracted to the other (spirtually) if we met today. Nothing in comon...etc.

Together we just seem to have nothing...save the 3 most wonderful daughters. But apart from them, there's nothing (watching movies and nookie is the inside joke here...and there's not enough good movies as the nookie is lacking...LOL). I do resent that...as I so much want to share life with someone I consider my soul mate. I'm a happy person, I'm very confident and independent, but how nice it would be to actually share life with someone...to separate threads that come together and knot...go on about their lives the next day...then knot...Yet mp22 seems to either not know how to engage me, not want to put forth the effort, or more likely, is just looking for something very different from life. There's nothing wrong with that...I'm not better than her...but we are very different.

Please keep all those comments coming. Thanks!

Usually, I spend time in the infidelity boards, but this topic peaked my interest (no pun intended lol)...

I am a woman, and I have found the concept of sexual desire to be perplexing. I don't understand the cry of women everywhere that they do not crave sex. What is the deal with that? In fact, in our worse days, my H used to call me a "nympho" because I like sex, and I like it frequently (though not two times a day, ouch!).

Turns out, after much pain hurt and argument on both parts, that my H was sexually molested as a child. We are just now attempting (after 6 years) to get our sex life back on track. He did not like foreplay, he wanted to "skip to the end", but would also be dismayed if I didn't reach orgasm. Well, w/out foreplay, there is no orgasm for most women. Intercourse just isn't all that to most girls (sigh, I envy the lucky few who can orgasm through intercourse!).

I wonder what it is about mp22 that keeps her from having the desire for sexual contact. I wonder if she reacts the same to other kinds of intimate touch--hand holding, hugging, kissing, back rubs, foot rubs, a hand on the back of the neck, brushing/braiding hair (I love that), etc. And I do wonder also, if you don't have foreplay, do you have orgasms?

As a new counselor (interning now, soon to have masters degree yay), I am stunned by the amount of women who have never had orgasms and never masturbated. This is simply a crime in my opinion. One of the reasons I believe my sexuality is alive and healthy is that I am very in touch with myself (no pun intended here either)--I know myself and what turns me on. I know how long it takes me to orgasm, and what to do if this or that isn't working on a particular night.

I know sex isn't all physical--in fact it is hardly physical at all. But, if you don't know yourself, how can you enjoy sex at all. I can imagine I would feel very assaulted if I only had sex to please someone else, and never myself.

Not to be presumptuous (you would not believe how many women I have given this advice to), but maybe mp22, you should go back to basics, and get to know yourself first. Forget him and his sexual appetite, just focus on what is sexual and pleasent for you. Maybe both of you could benefit?

Now that I got myself banned from the boards...
EJ

I did not intend for my husband to see this. I guess that part of the problem is that I don't want to please my husband. I'm not saying that this is the right attitude because I know that it isn't. He is miserable to me regardless what he says. He critisizes(spelled wrong?) everything that I do and nothing is ever good enough for him. He'll walk in the house after I've spent 2 hours making dinner and ask "what stinks". Or if he actually likes what I made then he'll say "Did Pete(our neighbor) come over and help you cook?" These are some of his kinder comments. I feel like a child who is constantly trying to please his parents and yet the parent says "why did you get an A and not an A+?" I guess that I'm just tired. Tired of his comments, tired of trying to please. Regarding sex- I have no problem with the way my husband pleases me. He does satisfy me that way. I just don't want to be near him when he makes me feel so cruddy all the time. He does nothing to try and make me happy. My being a christian does not affect my sex life! I don't think I would be engaging in oral and anal sex if it did. He just likes to use that as an excuse. Maybe it makes him feel less rejected or something. Also, he is so rejected every time he asks and I say I am not interested. Many times I'm in the middle of something with our children or on my way out the door for an appointment and he still gets mad. Also I don't like to do anything sexual when the children are awake. We don't have a lock on our bedroom door and it makes me very uncomfortable(the kids don't even leave me alone to go to the bathroom!). This is definitely a sore spot(one of many) in our marriage. Thanks for your comments.

See, now that makes sense!

It has nothing to do with mp22's sexuality.

I wonder if it is a guy thing to mix up sexuality with love (they are siblings, not clones IMHO).

Actually mp22, it sounds like your experience is similar to mine with my H pre-recovery. I'm just now emotionally ready to cope with him having an A, because I spent the last year coping with the fact that he was extremely emotionaly abusive to me for the first 4 years of our M.

It's funny that I still felt sexually attracted to a man who could do such horrible things to me (among others, he tried to force me to quit school, criticized my parenting, my cleaning, my cooking, everything about me). Your reaction seems much more logical than mine--but I was a classic victim.

Seems like you have spirit that comes out when your EN are not being met.

One thing I STILL do which I HATE doing but I can't seem to get past is keeping score. I mean, in MB principles you give unselfishly to your spouse with honest, thoughtful requests etc, etc. But, every time he lets me down, I feel like "screw him then" and I withdraw, too. As soon as I feel my ENs not being met, I quit meeting his. Which, apart from everything else, does not get me what I want, which is my ENs met.

With my H, I have found that if I meet his, he meets mine more often. And I've found that life isn't a tally sheet (you get one need, I get one need). Sometimes he is unable to meet my EN due to his drama, sometimes I am unable to meet his. The point is to keep the love bank in the black, so that when hard times hit we have reserves to draw on.

Maybe by your H reading this post, he can see what your ENs are, and realize how hard you are trying to meet his.

But what do I know--blind leading the blind.

Bottom line is, I can understand better with your explanation, and as always, the cigar is more than just the cigar.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
EJ

Geez McKreez...I must be missing something...anal and oral sex? I can count on my hand all the times in the past 12 years...maybe two hands.

mp22 does not enjoy being touched...I would love to massge her feet, her shoulders, anything...but she hates it. She hates her neck to be touched. This is why I say she is so non-sensual. She's just that way...it's OK...it's not wrong...but I couldn't possibly be any different. Braid her hair? I love long hair...I love braids...but touch hers? Only if I want to be whacked and piss her off.

mp22 wears sweatpants, sweatshirts, etc. to bed everynight...for 12 years! Never has she slept naked with me. I have asked, more like hinted, how wonderful it would be to come home some night to find her waiting for me in a t-shirt...nothing else...but never. Never in 12 years.
Never do I recall her rolling over at night and putting her arm around me (ok, as far as it can reach at least...LOL (I'm 6'2" and 295...she 5'1" and 120). Never. She could not be colder.
Over the past two years, things have improved slightly. At this rate she might be sleeping in her underwear before I am 60! NOT! LOL

And when I will say how disappointing that is to me...that's the verbal abuse she is referring to. That kind of verbal abuse...the kind where you voice a desire of something that you'd like, that isn't that way, and hence it is verbal abuse and criticism. Of that I am indeed guilty.
I guess I call it communication and trying...albeit perhaps too much. But I really think she'd be happier if I just was quiet and did my own thing...Sorry, that's not for me.

I am also guilt of an "affair"...which after about 2 weeks of meeting this OW I told my wife everything. After a year of trying to communicate with my wife, after pouring my soul in her lap, telling her how I feel so alone, long to share life with someone, long to enage in conversation with someone, to have someone enage me, my brain and my body. Yep, after pouring everything out to her of how I felt, and was told "You need Jesus"...Yep, then this big bad horrible man ran out and had an affair. Talking with people, woman, trying to understand what I could do to help my marriage...and I met her...and yes, how I wish I had found this forum before the yahoo chat rooms!

For the first time in my life, at 29.5, I realized what I wanted most...my relationship with my wife. And I tried...everything I could. "You need Jesus"...best reply I have ever been told.

Sorry for treading on your thread mary...didn't intend for that. I think having outside opinions/comments is wonderful...exactly perhaps what we both need...to try and see something new. I'm not right, you're not wrong, it's just we are different. Realize that, realize that there is no need to attack or feel attacked, then try to move on. A couple of years ago, without a doubt, I thought divorce was horrible...a cop-out, and easy fix to problems. But now I don't think that way anymore. Life is too short to be miserable...life is to short to deny how you really feel...what you really want. But three lives have been created through us, and they need to be put first. I agree with that completely. But what we have together, or perhaps what we don't have, that will never get better until we both get past the feelings that everything is an attack, that there is blame to be positioned. There is no fault here...there is no blame. There are no drugs, no alcohol abuse, nothing that makes it so clearly obvious. What I see is a passionate man trying to reach his "sheltered" wife...but for whatever reason, you take his attempts as attacks. And I don't understand this...

OK, please keep it coming... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

To me, it sounds like you are both boiling with anger at each other. H is sarcastic as hell and expects sympathy and understanding from W and everyone else. W is fed up with what she sees as "constant criticism" - and doesn't feel like having sex with someone she thinks is being abusive to her.

Anger from A of 2 years ago has not been worked through - both of you still holding on to resentment big-time. I have seen a couple of H and W threads on these boards and I think its really sad when one spouse uses the other's thread to have a go at them.

OK, so H thinks W is cold and NOT interested in sex with him - I take all his points on board - any man would find being married to such a woman v frustrating. But H needs to ask himself if there is anything he is doing which puts W's back up so she freezes up on him - W is telling him point blank that there is a lot he is doing which does not make her feel warm and loving towards him - H - why aren't you listening to her - are you more interested in being right or are you really wanting her to respond to you in the way you want her to? Stop expecting and demanding her to be different and try being kinder and more affectionate to her, and more appreciative of what she does for you - I know if I had spent 2 hours cooking for my family and my H walked in and said "what stinks?" I wouldn't feel like giving him a blow job in the bathroom when the kids were in the other room watching The Simpsons before dinner. Get it?

And W - I know this is hard, but you don't seem to like him at all - try looking for just one good thing you like about him every day and complimenting him on that - that seemed to really help with my H. With my H, I don't want sex when I am angry with him. Sometimes, my H seems curious about anal sex. I have never had this and don't like the idea. Why? Because it hurts and its filthy. I can't understand why anyone would want to do it, but that's just my opinion. If other people find it exciting that's fine, as long as they both like it. I don't think I have to "give" this to my H if I don't want to. I think he should love me enough to not demand something of me if I hate the idea and if it hurts. Sex is supposed to be enjoyable for both parties. In every other respect, I like sex with my H and he has always seemed to be happy with me. Giving him pleasure is part of loving him - when I love him, I want to give him pleasure. The trouble comes when I am angry - then I find it very hard to be physically warm. But I find that I hold on to anger a lot longer than he does - so I have found that making the effort to look for the things in him that I still like and admire helps me balance out the anger and resentment.

Was your H brought up in a family where teasing and sarcasm are the main forms of affectionate communication? This is the case with my H, and is something I would like him to work on. If your H says things like this and then says "it was only a joke", he may not understand just how cutting and cruel he is being. For some, this is a kind of emotional abuse which they have grown up with since childhood - it's hard for them to see that they turn around and do the same to others - its part of the cycle of bullying. Maybe that's what is happening here.

Well - hope this helps.

LIR

Your'e right. I am angry.(see my thread about anger in other topics). I get very angry because I don't think he really listens to me or understands anything I say. He misinterprets most everything I say. Right now he's telling me how uncompatible we are and how our marriage is never going to work. He's telling me how I don't want to accomplish any goals in life. He says that we never have any conversations(because unless we talk intellectually about a topic for at least 20 minutes about something he wants to talk about--(his words)) then we really aren't having conversation at all. I get angry because he says things in these threads that aren't true. Like I don't like to be touched. He's right in a way because 95%of the times he touches me he is grabbing a boob, grabbing my butt, or my crotch!! Otherwise if he takes my hand, plays with my hair, rubs my back or neck- that's a different story. He also told me a little while ago that I'm like a wilted flower because I get hurt by the things he says and does.! I'm sorry but I do not sit around feeling sorry for myself.. I am genuinely(spelled wrong?) hurt by these things. Sorry that I've been rambling on and on. Sometimes I just need to vent. Thanks.

Dear mp22,
I hear you that you're angry - sorry, I haven't read your other posts on anger yet - I know how you're feeling - this has also been, and continues to be a problem in our marriage. Our marriage right now is very shaky, so I'm not sure what kind of advice I can give you - but the good things are that we are both now in individual counselling and hopefully will reach a place where we can get into MC soon.

My H thinks anger is my biggest issue - I have exploded in frustration many times over the years, had Post-Natal Depression twice and being explosive was one symptom of that. This is just about all my H has communicated to me that he thinks is a problem with me.

From my point of view, my explosions have been the direct result of his bullying - he is the one who has taken out his frustrations with life on me - shouting, throwing things, MAKING SNIPING COMMENTS as he walks past, ignoring me when I ask him a question and am standing right next to him, refusing to allow me a say in the decision making - when you are stone-walled when you try to have a say, you are not an equal partner in the marriage. I know that he treats me badly when he is frustrated or stressed by something else. Many times I have told him I am not his "whipping boy".

For my H, the problem is needing to control EVERYTHING. And he controls by keeping control of the money, only speaking to me when he feels like it, guarding his "privacy" zealously, making unilateral decisions without consulting me. None of this makes me feel close, open or warm to him - just the opposite - and when he treats me this way, I react my getting mad. In the past, I looked at it as "defending myself, standing up for myself, refusing to take being treated this way" - almost always after a big argument, he would say he was sorry and climb down, so I felt I had done the right thing by being strong and standing up for myself. In actuality, it appears he was feeling worse and worse about himself, and blamed me more and more - finally he has reached a state where he has started having "secret" friendships with other women. The point is that my furious reactions to being badly treated were not doing him, me or our marriage any good. Now, I don't have to accept being badly treated, but I have learned that it is better not to get mad, just to walk away. My H has some serious problems, but he is now getting counselling and only time will tell. He has never hit me, but I believe he has a lot of suppressed anger against his parents, who bully him, and he was taking this anger out on me. I also realize that I cannot meet all the needs my H has right now - for emotional support - hopefully he is getting the emotional support he needs now from his counsellor and does not need to get admiration from other women.

What can I do? I can deal with my own anger in more positive ways. My anger dissipates when I do something positive for myself - go out and exercise, go out with a friend, accomplish some goal I have set myself towards my own development. I would say - ask yourself what things, any things, do you do just for you that make you happy? Make sure you try to start meeting your own needs as much as you can - this will help you let go of needing your H to be the one to make you happy.

Touch is also a problem with us - many marriages have this problem - the man touches the woman's body in only a sexual way - this makes the woman feel she is just there to be used as a piece of sexual meat.
My H has started to touch me in a non-sexual way now - maybe his counselor has suggested he try this - so he is actually hugging me, patting me on the back, touching and holding my hand. Since we still cannot talk about our problems at all without arguing, this means a lot to me, letting me know that he does still care and love me in some way.
Before, he used to (and still does) slap me on the butt, or snap my brastraps, and that was the ONLY time he touched me.

For me, I have learned to talk to him in a different way. Instead of retaliating when he does something I don't like - i.e. he slaps my butt and I snap back "how come you never just hug me?!", I say, if he reaches out to hold my hand, "you make me happy when you do that" - everything he does that I like, that makes me feel loved, I acknowledge him for - I let him know that that makes me happy - a man who really loves you wants to make you happy, but he needs telling BY YOU what makes you happy, because you are the only guide book to you there is. I have found that when I tell him these things in a non-combative way, he comes forward and does more of it.

The point is, I cannot change my H - he has to handle his own problems. I CAN try to learn to communicate with him in a non-confrontational way, which is what I am working on. We still have problems, but these things have been concrete things that have helped us get this far. I have also found the book "Venus and Mars Together Forever - Communication Skills for a Lasting Marriage" to be wonderful - it helped me understand that men and women have different needs and different communication styles - it helped me interpret his actions differently and to approach him differently. I would read that if you only ever read one book on marriage.

Hope this helps. Good luck.
LIR

Hi MP. Good to see you here. I've read your husband's threads and I just wanted to let you know that I understand completely. Your husband is chasing a myth. Mine did the same thing before he hit bottom (took 28 years) and realized what a good thing he had. So I guess, the question is, how long are you willing to put up with him?

And to BP22 if you are here:
Do you want to be married or do you want to be "right"? Part of you wants to be married to MP and part of you wants something "more". You need to decide what you want. If you want more, then leave, if you want to stay, then start looking at your wife as she is and not comparing her with your "fantasy girl". You can justify your position all day long, but you have to get off the fence and quit putting her through this misery.

Are you willing to stop your disrespectful judgements of your wife?

Are you willing to stop your independent decisions?

Are you willing to LOVE YOUR WIFE?

Are you willing to be a safe person, someone your wife can talk to without always comparing her to your "fantasy girl", saying disrespectful judgements, and making independent decisions?

What are your willing to say YES to?

I'm sure your wife would open up to you more and actually BE more like what you want if you would show her LOVE more often. She is ready, but are you?

Back to MP22
Hang in there a few more months and see if there is any change. Take care and let us know how you are doing.

I don't think that villianizing one or the other of these people is going to help either of them.

My H was much like LIR's. He was extrordinary controlling and abusive in many ways--and much as a result of his own upbringing where he was taught that a woman's place is in the kitchen (which sux for him, because I can't cook).

I agree whole heartedly with LIR's statements. You seem like you are learning to set good boundaries with your husband. The thing about this site that I like the best is that I can learn how to give my all to my relationship, and then be truly sure it isn't right if and when I want to end it.

BP--underneath the anger I hear a great need for affection. Many women (including me) have a "once bitten, twice shy" philosophy. If you have been or continue to be emotinally abusive as a response to your anger and hurt, MP will not respond to you physically. It is just female nature. I actually think that LIR said it best when she said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> when I love him, I want to give him pleasure. The trouble comes when I am angry - then I find it very hard to be physically warm. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As much as I enjoy sex, I get the same way--when I am mad I don't even want a hug or kiss, let alone bjs during the Simpsons (lol, how did you know LIR?). Your task seems like it should be to ask thoughtfuly for what you want and refrain from sarcasm or angry outbursts.

MP--I totally understand your reluctance to be close to him. But where I agree with LIR, I also disagree. Because the truth is (I try), I love my husband even WHEN I am angry at him--love and anger are not mutually exclusive. Sounds like your love bank is very depleted right now.

And really, you both said you want more physical, non sexual contact. Both of you said holding hands, playing with hair, and backrubs are acceptable and enjoyable. Hey, you agreed!! Wonders never cease <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I wonder if I could get my H on here and do this--I bet I'd learn a lot about his needs and he'd learn about mine.
EJ

BP and MP,
I wanted to post to you guys because so much of what both of you are saying is very familiar to me. The problem that you run into (as I did) on MB is that you get posters who can understand one side and others that can understand the other side.

The fact is that you are both right and you are both wrong. H does need to stop being critical, be more accepting of W and be gentle with W's feelings. At the same time, W is being just as judgemental by dismissing H's feelings.

You both need to find a better way to express your dissatisfaction. Try to find a way to express your feelings without stomping the other. As soon as either of you gets angry, stop. That's harder said than done, but it has to be done. Stop using divorce as a threat. Both of you need to decide whether you want the marriage or not and act on that decision. Don't use a half decision; either you commit to the marriage and stay or you don't and you LEAVE NOW. Live in the absolute present.

W needs to treat H's feelings and needs as EQUALLY important to her's. H needs to treat W's feelings as EQUALLY important to his. Don't wait for the other to meet your needs before you are willing to step out in faith and meet the other's needs.

W, why don't you ask your H to describe ONE thing that you can do to make him happy TODAY and H, do the same thing. Then, both of you do what the other asked without any reservation and to the best of your ability. Tomorrow, do the exact same thing and live in the moment.

That's my 2 cents and I think that you can quickly see some positive results.

Thanks so much everyone for your responses. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Mary.

Like Mary, I also thank you for your time and comments.

To answer the questions posed to me directly:

1. Do you want to be married or do you want to be "right"?

I want to be in love with my wife...I want to be attracted to her...I want to want to spend time with her...I want her to be the one in my life higher than all else. You can't just pick someone and put them there...contrarty to what others have said about "deciding" to love. I can't at least.

2. Part of you wants to be married to MP and part of you wants something "more". You need to decide what you want. If you want more, then leave, if you want to stay, then start looking at your wife as she is and not comparing her with your "fantasy girl". You can justify your position all day long, but you have to get off the fence and quit putting her through this misery.

I think we both agree we bringing nothing to each other...and without the kids, we have nothing together. I stay for 4 reasons: 1-3. Three kids. 4. Because I don't know what the future may bring. Mary has returned to school, there has been some changes and evolution in her...what will happen when she works? What will happen when she sees more of the world than her extrmemely sheltered life has revealed to date? As EJ said...I will not be ready to leave until I feel like everything has been exahusted. I see change occurring...might be slower than watching grass grow, but it has come a long way since 5 years ago say. We both agree our marriage is the best today than it ever has been...that is a great thing...yet we both agree it really sucks.

3. Are you willing to stop your disrespectful judgements of your wife?

I guess what we call disrespectful is different. I comment about my wifes lack of interest in planning the new house I am building...she gets upset. I comment about how the house stinks when I arrive home (sensitive nose here...) she gets upset. I comment about I don't like how she treats the kids when she gets angry and loses control...my fault...I am disrespectful. She helps me pull cable in the house...I get upset because she doesn't think about what she's doing, watch the cable, etc....and I probably no doubt yell "Geez, do it right...or don't help at all". That isn't the ideal way to respond, I agree. That's why I don't ask for help.

4. Are you willing to stop your independent decisions?

You're missing something here completely. I'd kill to have mary more indepenent and to step up to the plate and swim along my side in life, not behind me. It is her that needs to step up and become involved. I ask and ask and ask what SHE wants...she doesn't care, she always wants nothing, or she relies on her very upbringing to do the cheapest, least expensive thing. Which I can't stand... Financially we do OK...let's do something right. Stay away from the dollar store crap please. (Inside joke a bit here...)

5. Are you willing to LOVE YOUR WIFE?

This may be the crux of my problem...how are you WILLING to love anyone? For me, it doesn't happen that way. I guess it is something that is...based on the way I view the other person. Enage my mind, my spirit, and share life with me...you will see no stronger love than what will be returned to you.

Can accept things the way they are and just live and pretend to be happy? No. I can't. I won't. It is not what I think life is supposed to be.

6. Are you willing to be a safe person, someone your wife can talk to without always comparing her to your "fantasy girl", saying disrespectful judgements, and making independent decisions?

Hmmmm. I can try to do this better. But, I can not talk to anyone I care about and not tell them were I think they are in error. For those that I truely care about, I will always pose alternative ideas. If I feel like they are flatly doing something wrong, I will say so. My wife doesn't do anything I'd call "wrong". There's many things we just don't do at all...

7. What are your willing to say YES to?

Many things. But don't ask me to accept things that can't be "proven". Don't ask me to do things without thinking about them. Don't ask me to have faith in Jesus. And please don't ask me to spend the rest of my life in quiet discontent. I'm a scientist...and an engineer...I am curious to ask why and to make it better. That's my nature. I don't stop asking why...I never will. And I can't stop trying to make it better. Better, of course, is subject to the thinker.

I am not a controlling personality. I do not want people to do things MY way (OK, somethings I do, but not in general). I do not need to justify myself or my actions to anyone to feel better. I do not try to justify anything here to this group...I am trying to explain my situation and who I am and what I am looking for.

My wife is the most honest, open, and committed person I have ever met. She will hide nothing from me. She would never lie to me. These are indeed wonderful things...and I think things than in my experience are not very easy to find in people...let alone a woman. I do not think I have a "fantasy girl" template that I compare her too.

Yet I know what engages me...I know what I am drawn too. First and foremost...conversation. Contrary to what mary stated above...I define conversation as conversation that last for more than 30 seconds AND requires you to think. Don't state the facts, don't state the events of the day...but think. Analyze...wonder...form your statement. That is conversation...I long for that at home. I get it at work, but home is so wildly different to me. There is no conversation, no stimulation, no enagement of my spirit.

And finally...I do not feel like I harbor anger towards mary. I would say I have huge quantities of disappoinment...in that these needs listed in the above paragraph are not even scratched, let alone met.

And finally finally, one last thing. Again, I do NOT assign blame on mary for this. I am not saying anything is her fault. I don't think that is the case at all. If anything, it is me. I am the one that has been honest with myself and has realized what I really want in life. It is me that has decided that I do not want my home life to be barren of conversation and stimulation. I used to say that I was so happy that my wife was not a fellow "scholar" (for lack of better word...maybe academic? Maybe scientist? maybe relentless pursuer of the truth and understanding? maybe [censored] is best? LOL) Anyways, it is I that has decided that I long for more...to share more...to commune together more. I am sick of being alone when I experience these moments of connection...be it under a dark clear sky, on a mountain peak, driving through beautiful scenery, building the house, playing/talking with the kids, whatever it is. I want someone to share these moments with me, to share them together. To appreciate the same kinds of things.

mary is wonderful in so many ways...but we share no connection and bond on this deeper level. I am disappointed by this. Can I choose to love her? Can I choose to put her in the top of my heart, mind, and soul and treat her as she deserves? For me, it is not a simple choice. It is something that is shared together...and I assume it is a natural placement.

Yes, you can say I am in the Fog. But I will say that if so, I will eternally be in this Fog. I do not expect to find that perfect "wonder girl"...it is not possible. I do not expect to have a perfect relationship. In fact, the very act of compromise is a wonderful thing to share with a spouse. But you can't compromise everything...everyday. You can't overlook the disappointment, emptiness, and loneliness you feel everyday. (Well, not everyday these days...)

Mary and I clearly have many areas of complete differences. I think maybe these are not overcomable. Religion and faith is a big one. I grew up as a poster boy born again christian. physics put an end to my faith. Mary hasn't...it is a point. but mainly because I feel like it prevents mary from wondering, from asking, from searching for answers. She'd say she doesn't need to...her faith is the answer...Ah, there's my problem.

Ok, rambling on and on. Trying to explain how I feel, what I am searching for. Not justifying anything...I have no need.

A hopeless romantic? Without a doubt. In the Fog? If that's what you want to call it. Willing to live in quiet discontent? Nope. Willing to settle for something that is less than what fulfills my soul and engages my being? Never.

I am hoping someone, somewhere, maybe will say something that will help us to fulfill these desires in each other.

I don't think it is possible...but am I willing to give up? Nope.

Thanks for putting up with me...Mary does it everyday. Can you imagine that?? LOL

OK, this is for you, H of Mary -

First off, I'll try not to be judgemental of what you are searching for the words to say -

lets start from where I'm coming from - I'm from a VERY eclectic family - my dad is a pagan and a Buddhist - v intelligent, a surgeon, well-respected, and when I grew up, I grew up around his friends - famous artists, writers and intellectuals - I grew up in a non-Christian household where intellectual freedom was highly valued. My mom leans towards Hinduism - born-again Christians were anathema to us - guess what? I became a Catholic - HOLY S**T - how did that happen? I could go into it, but it would take too long - suffice to say I had a dream which has stayed with me the whole of my life - I didn't need to be born again - I am not a fundamentalist - I abhore the dogma which squelches freedom of thought out of people's minds - so how can I justify being a Catholic? Because I believe I am entitled to dissent and follow my conscience.

OK - have I established enough street cred on intellect for you yet?

What comes over in your post loud and clear?

You keep telling us you are looking for something wonderful - you are on some quest to appreciate the universe - and you want to share the wonder you see in the world all around you - I appreciate this impulse - I used to work for the Astrophysics department at Caltech - what a place! what great people physicists are - yes, the world is a fascinating and amazing place - and beginning to have some grasp on the magnitude of that - wouldn't it be great to have someone to share that with?

But - you keep telling us that your wife is just not UP to your standards - this is the message you are giving me - sorry, she just doesn't cut it - i've tried and tried, but sorry, no go - she's just not up to the grade, doesn't cut it, not up to scratch, can't wrap her head around the concepts that make my light bulbs go on, too "thick", doesn't find lying back and watching the Leonid showers turns her on, and man, you know, that's just not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough. Too dumb for me. Too dumb for me. Have I said it enough times for you? Would you be happy, or talkative, or share your thoughts and feelings with someone who gave you this message all the time? Being married to you sucks. Being married to you sucks. Being married to you sucks. Being married to you sucks. Being married to you sucks. Like it? Gee, I wonder why she isn't happy?

And you said one thing that really sticks out - you said something like - I can't be married to someone and not tell them when I think they are doing something wrong, or if I think something needs to be fixed. You know what?
You can. Your wife does not need fixing, nor does she need your input on what you think needs fixing, or what she is doing wrong. If you only try to change ONE thing about yourself in the interest of being happily married, change this one thing. Learn to listen to her without trying to fix her problems. Do not interrupt her. Do not point out to her her mistakes. Do not suggest solutions. Do not point out to her where she could have done something better. Just listen and if you think she did something RIGHT - then COMPLIMENT her on that one thing she did right.

You come across as a guy who thinks he's better than most, smarter than most, and has got all the answers - you are sarcastic in your comments and derogatory about your wife - that IS disrespectful. A little humility in the face your humanity wouldn't go amiss.

LIR

BP22 & MP22
First let me say that when posting on MB, while you gain some great advise there will always be those who do not look at both sides of the situation and tend to criticize the other person. I personally think that attacking someone is a down right mean thing to do, especially when people are looking for help.

Spt-fl is my husband and as he said we have been through a lot of what you all are experiencing. I hope that something that we say might help the two of you save your marriage.

On that note, the first thing that I would say to the both of you is &#8220;Do you want to save your marriage?&#8221; If you do then you can, but it will take work on BOTH of your parts. It will take compromise and change and forgiveness. Not for one but for BOTH of you. You both have to learn how to communicate effectively, listen, and negotiate.

W- You say that you do not want to meet your husbands needs. I ask you WHY? Is it just because of the anger you feel towards him, or is it because you do not love him? This is a very important question you need to ask yourself. If the later is true then let him go, if it is not then you have to decide to forgive and deal with the anger you feel.

You said that you like the way your husband satisfies you sexually, but that you don&#8217;t like to do some of the things he does all the time. You said whatever happen to good old sex. There is a time and place for both don&#8217;t you think? There is a time for a quickie and then there is a time for romance and experimentation. If there is something he is asking you to do that hurts you or just completely turns your stomach then tell him.

My husband told me something once and he was right. Being sexy is in your mind, it is your attitude. If you dress sexy you will feel sexy. The more you think about sex the more you will want it, the more you have sex the more you will want it. Surprise your husband, wear a sexy little night gown to bed instead of a tee shirt and sweats. You say that you don&#8217;t like to fool around when the kids are up, so teach the kids that when Mommy and Daddy&#8217;s door is shut they are not to interrupt. Think of fooling around with the kids right outside the door as an adventure, like you&#8217;re a teenager again and it is your parents your hiding from. Make it a little interesting. My husband and I went skinny-dipping in our pool with our kids in the house.

H- You say that you do not feel that you can do anything to change the circle that you all are on. On the contrary you can do a lot of things. First and foremost, if the things you are saying to your W are hurting her then STOP. When you explain how you talk to her it sounds as if you are talking to a child. So maybe it isn&#8217;t so much WHAT your saying as it is HOW your saying it. If you want her to be an equal partner then starts treating her like one. You can not possibly expect your W to want to be sexual with you when you put her down. Say positive things, tell her that you appreciate her taking care of the kids and the house. Put your arm around her and hug her and tell her you love her, for now reason at all, just because. Have you ever heard the expression that you get more bees with honey than vinegar. I think you might be surprised how more sexual your wife might want to be with you if she felt as though you appreciated her.
To you both: I could go on and on about different things that you all could do to try to make your marriage work, but you both have to decide first if you are prepared to do whatever it takes. W- I know about getting defensive I do the same thing, but you know what it only makes things worse not better. H- Try a different approach, try wording things in a more constructive manner.

I hope that some of this might help.

luvthatman, to answer your quwstion. I have loved my husband since he was 14 years old and I still do, although he is always trying to convince me that I really don't. I guess I'm just angry and resentful because of the past 12 years of misery. Also, his "affair" of 2 years ago and his constant reminders of it and her.(he still has 2 shirts that she gave him that he refuses to get rid of!)(YES- he still wears them occasionally). Yes I'm angry. I am trying so hard not to feel this way, but I do anyways. I feel like I just start to heal and then bp22 rips the scab off with something he says or does. Like above where he again redefines his definition of conversation. He really did tell me word for word what I stated above. I must be mute if he really follows the new definition. If I didn't love my husband then why would I stick around??????? Thanks for your input.