It's been awhile since I've been to the MB site (that's why my profile below is dated). Back over 3 years ago I first found MB as I was trying to salvage my marriage after D-day. I am the WS. Long story short: started with an online affair that became physical and that progressed into full-fledged sexual addiction in which I acted out by having casual sex with several women. I caused my wife and children immense pain through what I did and D-Day was the end of my contact with any of the women I had been with. I got into recovery and worked hard at addressing my share of the mess our marriage got into. Over 3 years later I'm still doing those things. But over these last 3 years we have been at the brink of divorce repeatedly always with my wife threatening. Although there have been times that she has openly marvelled at how much I have changed, she also says she just cannot get over my infidelity. It doesn't seem that she owns much if any part of the mess in our marriage before the unfaithfulness (we were married 13 years before I strayed). Repeatedly we have come back from the brink of divorce and enjoyed times of closeness and companionship that exceed much of what we experienced in our first 13 years. But always she will question me about my faithfulness (even though I have gone out of my way to account for my time and whereabouts to her). And eventually her mood begins to decline and she becomes distancing and demeaning. Now we are at the brink again as I believe she filed for divorce 1 week ago. I've been sleeping in a spare bedroom and she will barely talk to me except in contemptuous or condescendingly tolerant tones. She openly says she doesn't love me and says she never has. We have 3 children: 18 yo daughter, 16 yo son, and 12 yo son. I'm in absolute anguish at the prospect of our family being divided. And I miss so much my wife. Not the demeaning and raging side but the other side who has been a close friend, always my romantic interest, and the person who means more to me than anyone else in the world. I have been leaning heavily on my recovery buddies by making calls every day and upping my attendance of meetings. They are incredibly supportive and always keep the focus on my side of the street. While a part of me wonders if there is someone out there who could actually love me (without threatening to leave me every few months), much of me just wants this marriage to be healed. But I'm feeling right now like I have no choice in this. Any counsel you share with me?

i'm wondering if you can simply approach your W and say,

"I don't like it when you say(whatever she does about Dv) the threatenign hurts, ,,, and i would simply like it to stop. Adding, W, i love you, but this simply doesn't help. Please - i'd appreciate it if you could allow and find it to refrain. I think you ust need to give a does of radicla honesty here, but avoid all LB'ers.

My W threatened me soo often,, i ended up actually not knowing what to say, or do, and even what to say, or do. ??

I did allow the enabling, and i was also avoiding conflicts, neither are a good thing.

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

Thanks Stephan for your reply. I have told her that I really don't want a divorce and practically pleaded with her to just go and talk to somebody about this. She refuses saying her mind is made up. I don't want to push it because I know that one of her issues with me is feeling like she gives in to me. A part of me wants to really respect and honor who desire to 'cut the ties' and to feel free. That CAN be a wonderful place from which to build a healthy marriage and intimacy. I don't know if that is a possibility here and I'm powerless to cause it. I am taking a day at a time, praying the serenity prayer often, and trying to stay grateful. What's perhaps most difficult in the moment is simply missing her and handling the awkward detachment between us, feeling like we can't engage in real conversation without her becoming emotionally abusive. That's where I'm at right now.

xscoundrel,
i do hope that you do know- you did make a mess of things. Are there explanations? probably. Is your W to blame and at fault, well, she does have a part. Yet,,, she didn't twist your arm, did she?

IMO, i think you better continue to apologize, and ask her for forgivenss. Then let it be.
She may have her mind made up. She sounds as though a lady of integrity. Once he4r mond is made up, thats it. Besides, it is wrong to change ones mind, right?

You do need to continue working on you. The sooner, the better.

There may still be a chance for your M, but it may be small. And it can start-with small baby steps.

And eventually her mood begins to decline and she becomes distancing and demeaning.,,,

No marriage is easy, some are easier than others, but they all require a lot of quality time, and work-together. When your W begins to decline,, and she distances,, what do you say and do? Do you accept it? What would you do, if it was turned around? Could you handle it any better? and continue each and every day? She too is human, and she too has feelings? She to is confused, and hurt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">always my romantic interest, and the person who means more to me than anyone else in the world. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm confused. You say, "always my romatic interest." Then how could you find it, and allow the other women? I realize i don't have that infidelity addiction, and maybe i'll never understand. But what i do understand, is my W was always my interest, and i was, and remained loyal, to her, and only her.

The person that means more to you than anybody in the world,,, again, then how could you do soemthing- like you allowed,, it is all by choice. Your choice. AS you said, you hurt her, and your children- for your selfish wants/needs. You wasn't thinking about them, or her,, only yourself.

I seriously hope you continue to recieve the therapy/counseling,, i think it's still beneficial. This could also have an impact on your W.

****They are incredibly supportive and always keep the focus on my side of the street.****

i'm wondering, what about your W's side of the street? Her voice should be heard, her needs need to be heard,,, maybe i'm misunderstanding here, and i really don't have a clue about recovery buddies?? Does your W attend any of these?

I really hope you get into a counselor, and really truly open up, no matter how embarrassing, or painful.

Begging+pleading = unattractiveness. Right now, i really think this is how she sees you. Do you want that impression? If not, then work on you, forget about her accepting her part,, at least for now. Maybe in due time, that can be addressed? can't understand why it hasn't been already?? you mentioned the time frame involved here,,,????


****While a part of me wonders if there is someone out there who could actually love me (without threatening to leave me every few months)****
i wonder, can you learn to accept-what you did, was wrong, there are consquences, there are price tags associated with almost each and every choice we make, and those choices we don't make, are included.

i don't understand that thought,,"if there is someone out there who could actually love me"

what i'm hearing, is that your contradicitng yourself, why this thought?? i'm wondering, you are aware- ones past performance is usually an indicator of future presentations,,??

I realize i sound harsh to you,, to a point, i actually am. I began wondering, how many of your past A's were married lady's already? I wonder,,,

I currently do not have much sympathy for cheating individuals,,,

What you do for you, can and will have an impact on your W,, there are no guarantees,, but the sooner you fix you, the better.

Will your W talk to anbody,, w/o you? DO you attend church? IS there a pastor? Does your church offer any couple mentoring?

YOu didn't mention,, but it almost sounds as though she may be involved with someone?/

Maybe shes at a point where she just wants to hurt you,,

There stillis some hope,, but how much, nobody can know for sure., including your W, she may very well be at her ending point, this does happen.

****I don't want to push it because I know that one of her issues with me is feeling like she gives in to me.****

maybe you need to read about the giver and taker that is in everybody,, you can find helpful info pertaining to this here at MB.


****part of me wants to really respect and honor who desire to 'cut the ties' and to feel free. That CAN be a wonderful place from which to build a healthy marriage and intimacy.****

what are you saying here? what i'm hearing, is, well , i'll suspend that thought for awhile.

it's almost as though you're double standards here,,, and being contradictive???

take care, and good luck,,,

"i do hope that you do know- you did make a mess of things. Are there explanations? probably. Is your W to blame and at fault, well, she does have a part. Yet,,, she didn't twist your arm, did she?"

It alarms me that you would get any sense that I don't know the mess I've made. My wife certainly didn't twist my arm or cause me in any way, shape, or form. I take full responsibility for my wrong and destructive choices. But, as you seem to indicate here, she did bring her own part to what was wrong (and is wrong) in our relationship. Full healing can only happen as she can own that and address it.

"When your W begins to decline,, and she distances,, what do you say and do? Do you accept it? What would you do, if it was turned around? Could you handle it any better? and continue each and every day? She too is human, and she too has feelings? She to is confused, and hurt."

This is the best thing you say in your post. Sometimes I accept it and understand her pain and sometimes I get resentful because it feels like the same way she acted before there was any infidelity. Resentment leads to self-pity and sullenness. Talk about unattractive! (btw--I did not literally 'plead'...back 3 years ago I would but I've recovered enough to have regained some self-respect).

"i'm confused. You say, "always my romatic interest." Then how could you find it, and allow the other women? I realize i don't have that infidelity addiction, and maybe i'll never understand. But what i do understand, is my W was always my interest, and i was, and remained loyal, to her, and only her."

I've always been strongly attracted to my wife and had strong romantic feelings for her. But often my feelings were met by her with coldness, disinterest, or even disdain. The intensity of my feelings for her made her non-responsiveness all the more painful. After never even being close to straying for over 13 years of marriage, I wondered if there was something wrong with me and could there be a woman who would respond to me. Now I realize that there were plenty of LBs on both our parts. This is no excuse for my infidelity and neither is it a full explanation. There are many factors.

"i'm wondering, what about your W's side of the street? Her voice should be heard, her needs need to be heard,,, maybe i'm misunderstanding here, and i really don't have a clue about recovery buddies?? Does your W attend any of these."

My side of the street means that they keep the focus on what I THINK and DO, not on what my wife does. The simple idea is that I am powerless over my wife anyway so whatever may be her responsibility or wrong in what is happening is not my business. My responsibility is my business and recovery buddies keep the focus on my choices and responsibility no matter what my wife says or does. Although there are support groups (made up of people who have partners who have sexual addictions) for my wife, she has never chosen to even check it out. For the most part, she has tried to get through this alone.

"I realize i sound harsh to you,, to a point, i actually am. I began wondering, how many of your past A's were married lady's already? I wonder,,,
I currently do not have much sympathy for cheating individuals,,,"

You do sound harsh and your lack of sympathy is evident. I understand that and if I were in your place, I most likely would feel the same way. YET, the real measure of your healing will be the measure that you can somehow come to have some sympathy for cheaters. Speaking from personal experience, they are all deeply flawed human beings. But that really describes us all, doesn't it? It's just that our flaws differ usually based on differences in our backgrounds. There is way too much to say about this and I don't know what your situation is with your wife but I will say this: if your wife cheated on you, as horrible a choice as that is, the way back is only by grace, not judgmental shaming of her. I can not presume that you are doing this but when we are harsh instead of compassionate, it points to people out of touch with their own dark side, their own weakness, and their own need for grace in the deepest places of their humanity. I know my wife feels like my infidelity is not what she 'signed up for.' I would do anything to go back and undo what I've done but I can only go forward and try to be the man I should've been all along.

"part of me wants to really respect and honor who desire to 'cut the ties' and to feel free."

Sorry for the typo, instead of 'who', read 'her.' Don't mean to be self-contradictory but I can see how it could be interpreted that way. I'm trying to say that detachment is necessary for healthy re-attachment. Maybe she (and I) need some space from each other for a time so we can start all over again and form healthy attachments this time. Hopefully this would not require divorce. But the reason I am posting here is because divorce seems likely at this point and there seems nothing I can do to prevent that. I can and will continue to address my own substantial issues regardless.

Stephan, thank you for taking the time to respond and for responding honestly. I sense a lot of pain behind your words and this is a good reminder of the ongoing depth of my wife's pain.
I wish blessings for you and your family.

XScoundrel, I'm sorry for your pain. I appreciated the interchange between you and Stephan because it helped me to recognize my own recovery. When I first came here, I totally resented WS's who realized after the fact how much damage they'd done and were now on the receiving end of the rejection/reconciliation madness expecting understanding. The difference is that now I do understand.

At first, the betrayal of the affair is devastating beyond words. It takes a lot of time in recovery to accept one's own part in the slow erosion of the marriage that lead up to the A, without accepting responsibility for the infidelity and the hurtful behavior that goes along with it. And, it's probably easier in my case with no contact, than for your wife who would have to open her heart again to someone who completely violated her trust in the past.

It sounds like you are in a 12-step recovery program. Is there a co-group(Al-Anon, NarAnon, S-Anon)? I know I couldn't have made it myself without Al-Anon. Would your wife consider this?

xscoundrel,

with my W, to this day she only blames me. Obviously my personal pain is still reflected thru my words,,, i haven't been able to place that needed closure with this situation-

I don't mean to reflect or direct any of it towards you, yet at the same time-with WS, i realize i automatically have/allow some attitude,,, don't take it personal- this is my personal probloem, and i do accept ownership. as best i can, and each day i improve(i hope lol)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It alarms me that you would get any sense that I don't know the mess I've made. My wife certainly didn't twist my arm or cause me in any way, shape, or form. I take full responsibility for my wrong and destructive choices. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, i was confused- at times it appeared as though you've accepted/realized, and at times i was with impression the blame/fault was being misdirected,,??

But, as you seem to indicate here, she did bring her own part to what was wrong (and is wrong) in our relationship.Full healing can only happen as she can own that and address

This is 100% correct, i couldn't agree more.
MAybe with your W, as with mine-it's much easier to just blame, refuse, and deny. My W plays the victim role- so well.

Recently she cancelled another MC appointment, and i've ben after CS for some time now- recently she requested a list- a list from me, of things i'll give to her-before sghe agrees/decides to work on us, our R. Her first request- is JC. I have custody of our children.

Fri. eve while exercising her visitation- during conver. she commented-"find a house w/ 6 bdrms" as she was leaving, she stated she wasn't serious. I'm sure-to some 3extent, i allow. I'm w/ impression' her only motive is to post-pone CS, as long as she can?? no crystal ball here, just an observation-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get resentful because it feels like the same way she acted before there was any infidelity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no need in saying-resentful won't work- you are human, but this can be suspended, i'm wondering, do you react? I'm also wondering, is there a chance she does this intentionally? You know what i mean? Push "your" buttons, knowing your response will be the was she's predicting.?

My W was pretty good at this, and like the crazy man, every time- as she'd continue to push and push, eventually i'd give to the LB'ers. I would place those verbal boxing gloves on, come out of the word corner, and commence boxing,, verbally though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've always been strongly attracted to my wife and had strong romantic feelings for her. But often my feelings were met by her with coldness, disinterest, or even disdain. The intensity of my feelings for her made her non-responsiveness all the more painful </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can/will understand where your coming from with this, as i too was met with resistance, time and time again,, the thought entered about finding some one timer act, i was able to resist that temptation. This does hurt, and right to the inner core, to depths i didn't know existed. Still, i remained faithful, loyal, and devoted.
Eventually the negative portion of our minds become the forfront,,,

Eventually it's almost a guarantee, that the refusal/reection, or denial will transpire yet once again.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My side of the street means that they keep the focus on what I THINK and DO, not on what my wife does. The simple idea is that I am powerless over my wife anyway so whatever may be her responsibility or wrong in what is happening is not my business </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do now habe a better understanding, i wasn't quite sure how to interpert this,,, sorry for the confusion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YET, the real measure of your healing will be the measure that you can somehow come to have some sympathy for cheaters. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In some cases i actually do and have,,, in the cases where the addiction is there, but in the cases where it's allowed by a simple choice, i can't. With that in mind, when i read your thougths about, "I wondered if there was something wrong with me and could there be a woman who would respond to me."

I was with impression this was a simple choice, made/allowed by you and you alone. Therefor, i allowed my attitude to be displayed, and in some way, directed to you,, i do apologize,,, regardless of the circumstances, it is wrong of me.

I can and do remember having these same thoughts, and i always knew i could find a lady though,, not that i'm Mr. handsome, or Mr, Attractive, i ust know there are places that i could find,,,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Speaking from personal experience, they are all deeply flawed human beings. But that really describes us all, doesn't it? It's just that our flaws differ usually based on differences in our backgrounds. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't agree with you more. We all are of the flesh, we are all weak, and the vast majority are those lost sheep. Depending on ones backgrounds,is only a sample, and the begining,,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if your wife cheated on you, as horrible a choice as that is, the way back is only by grace, not judgmental shaming of her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i can assure you, there is no judgemental shaming.
With my W, i can only be realistic. Realizing at times i may leave the impression of bad-mouthing, slandering,, i don't want to leave this impression,, i simply have a need to learn and understand.?? So that i may be able to help others??

My W's history--- the 13 or so R's she been in, every one before she would end things with current guy, she would bring another into the picture first. Including ehr first M, at the tenth month. Only after she left, did i come to learn and know as much as i do know, about her. But, she is my W. I chose to marry her. Can't force her to stay,,

***sympathy for all cheaters***
not sure if i could ever do this,, in time maybe??

with the cheaters who are cheating due to their needs not being met/fulfilled -- is one thing. This is when the statement "there is no excuse for infidelity" applies. Those with that addiction,(mental issues) is another.Then the infidelity no excuse,, this can't be applied. ?? I can and do have sympathy for some, just not all. My sympathy in some cases, are directed to the innocent.

Some people will never know, learn or understand that they have needs,,, they cruise thru life, maybe even with that "grass is greener" theory more so than the norm,, ??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> when we are harsh instead of compassionate, it points to people out of touch with their own dark side, their own weakness, and their own need for grace in the deepest places of their humanity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'am harsh at times,,, as i mentioned at the begining, i haven't been able to place that closure into this. I'm only still to blame by my W. I accepted my part, for allowing certain behavior in my M. But i can't accept that it's my fault that she strayed. This is her pattern, she's allowed it before. And she'll probably continue?? (no crystal ball here)

With those denials, accusations, refusals, rejections,,, about the only thing accomplished, will be frustration, on the recievers end, then the bouncing ball theory applies,,, right down to the damn dog,,lol

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm trying to say that detachment is necessary for healthy re-attachment. Maybe she (and I) need some space from each other for a time so we can start all over again and form healthy attachments </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Detachment is a must!!! and thank you for the clarifying. Some times a seperation is required,,, it has true potential,,, i'm only concerned that this to has the potential (if allowed too long) that it can go astray.

IMO, those physical abusive R's and M's, seperation is adamant. Those with verbal abuse, i think a seperation should be avoided,, just my opinion here,, verbal abuse,, this is and can be over abused,over accused- one must know the true intent of ones mind, before we can accuse, and this is virtually impossible.

I'm wonderiong, if maybe the true meaning/definition of what a marriage is, how much this actually influences ones choices,,, a marriage is an entity.

When i hear a spouse make the comment, "my current W, or H" it's as though they've automatically accepted that they will eventually Dv. It's a pre-mature and pre-determined mind set,, and the results are setting the way down the path of Dv,,,,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But the reason I am posting here is because divorce seems likely at this point and there seems nothing I can do to prevent that. I can and will continue to address my own substantial issues regardless </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Marriages can be saved/healed, even where only one spouse desires,,,

I feel the need to share this,, i'am adamantly opposed to Dv,,, spiritualy, and personally.

You're correct,,, at times i'm still with pain,,, i'm reminded almost daily of the pain my children experience. When they hurt, i hurt. My children from my M are 6 and 4, the 6 is with a form of brain tumor/cancer,,, Thanksgiving nite, she was balling her sad little eyes out,,, her first item on her CHristmas list, "a mommy."

I'm wondering, if you don't want a Dv. are you willing to throw in the towel?? Don't give up yet,,
keep on posting and asking here,,, there still is hope, but never any guarantees........

Will your W. or is she willing to talk to someone on a one on one basis?? Rather a pastor, counselor, mentor,, or some neutral individual?

Is she involved with someone else??

God bless you and yours,

stever

xScoundrel I think I'm proud of you in the sense you are here, frigthened and want to save your marriage.

3 years hey you got this far!! with a lot of ups & downs, amazing closeness & fierce detachments.

We are 2 years on. I offer our experience as a couple who are now only becoming aware of each others authentic feelings.

We faced the horrors of stupidity.

I asked him to only come to me when he was absolutely sure with clear conscience that he loved me & only me & our children.

We reconciled. We formulated a basic survival plan in crises mode we agreed to protect ourselves & focus on our children.

Similiar to you we have had major blow outs.

Now I can identify why - resentment - by both.

We tipped along steadily, for the sake of peace.

We had major love ins too.

My husband reassured me that this was were he wanted to be.
He loved me.

I heard everything he said, I enjoyed the moment of goodness for goodness.

It was the moments when I felt low about myself as a person, or the times when he was emotionally unavailable to respond to me in a way that verified for me the depth of his caring for me, that I allowed doubts & questions buzz internally, I never shared them - I felt it would be like re awakening something ugly that we were supposed to be over.

I wanted empathy & compassion. My husband to be a big strong man & simply reach out & comfort me.

Instead I received defensiveness, blaming & negativity. He'd hear blah, blah, your fault blah, blah, blah, I'm needy, blah. He'd be thinking when the hell does this end it's like pms on mega steroids.

I felt he just didn't get it or want to get it.
I just wanted a hug, it'll be better darling.
He felt I just didn't get it or want to get it.
He just wanted to enjoy being, it was already better until I started sounding doubtful.

Those little pokes, looks & jabs eroded our companionship.
The little tokens of affection, the calls, the compliments the appreciation & the obvious heartfelt desire of being wanted & loved bonded us.

The trump card of leaving loomed over every argument. It was an extraordinary fear & I often felt used as a powerful threat to motivate me. It had the opposite affect. I often felt in my head, compared to, not good enough. He'd never say that I just felt it.

I'd worry about future events too.

I'd try to take rational stock of what happened, & why was I even here? My logical side told me to run for the hills who in their right mind wants to be friends, never mind lover & wife to a man who can willfully hurt her & their children. My second sequence of thought would be am I even in my right mind thinking like this, I'd serve to hurt my family too. Besides I LOVE this man. I felt the proof was in my willingness to stay, to be here for him. It's not the proof is in the day to day reality of living & giving love. We lived a lie for a while, that's stopped.

2 years on when we have arguments as a wife who was formerly betrayed, in my thoughts I sadly question everything as I often think he must too.

We finally broke through. It was something of a lull we were existing. We were being honest in respect of not hurting each other, but here is the kicker we were not sharing honestly how we really felt. Our individual fears (the basis for all our arguments that get beyond discussions) and how to help ourselves, each other or not. We got real.

It came about from each of us admitting both of us deserve happiness, that sure there are other potentials, that first we needed to be ourselves.

I feel a lot of it comes back to personal self-esteem & honesty with ourselves about who we really are.

Here is a sidetrack interesting site found the other day Have the Courage to Say Exactly What You Feel

Since you are here so long I'll respect the fact you'll have all the knowledge read. Is it possible that it was not put into action in a way your wife felt loved, valued, safe & cherished?

I hope you work this out, we found we'd go round in cycles, gradually building to extremes. It can get very hard to back down when your feeling no out & no welcome.

There is 2 ways of going as you know, being right & being married <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


In my gut (if you can rule out op - the potential is always there though when feeling dejected) I'm inclined to think your wife wants you to sit up & take notice she's suffering, to help her, to love her, she is hurting badly, she needs a friend - can you be that for her on her terms?

Best of wishes to you & yours
Ktulu

Thank you LetSTry for your response. You asked: "It sounds like you are in a 12-step recovery program. Is there a co-group(Al-Anon, NarAnon, S-Anon)? I know I couldn't have made it myself without Al-Anon. Would your wife consider this?"

I am and have been in 12-step recovery for the last 3 years. It has literally been a lifesaver; an instrument of hope and healing that seemingly was not available anywhere else (including church). I attend several meetings a week of both SA and SLAA. Both have co-groups but wife, without even trying them, disdainfully assumes that they're made up of women who are 'losers.' Besides, in her mind, this is my problem and mine alone. BTW, I attended my first Al-Anon meeting the other night. Given the current circumstances, I felt like I needed a meeting and there were no S-group meetings. I am an ACOA and have the relational and personal tendencies that go with that (I could answer 'yes' to all 20 of the qualifying questions on their website).

You also referred to WS who expect understanding. For myself, I don't expect understanding. Understanding is grace, it is an undeserved gift. What I expect and deserve is judgment. Before I fell, I did more than my share of judging others. It's always easier to see
and focus on other's faults rather than our own. While I still expect judgment from others, one of the gifts of recovery is I no longer accept the kind of blaming and shaming that treats me as subhuman or worthless (which is what my wife is prone, in her worse moments, to heap on me).

Thanks for sharing with me out of your healing.

Thank you LetSTry for your response. You asked: "It sounds like you are in a 12-step recovery program. Is there a co-group(Al-Anon, NarAnon, S-Anon)? I know I couldn't have made it myself without Al-Anon. Would your wife consider this?"

I am and have been in 12-step recovery for the last 3 years. It has literally been a lifesaver; an instrument of hope and healing that seemingly was not available anywhere else (including church). I attend several meetings a week of both SA and SLAA. Both have co-groups but wife, without even trying them, disdainfully assumes that they're made up of women who are 'losers.' Besides, in her mind, this is my problem and mine alone. BTW, I attended my first Al-Anon meeting the other night. Given the current circumstances, I felt like I needed a meeting and there were no S-group meetings. I am an ACOA and have the relational and personal tendencies that go with that (I could answer 'yes' to all 20 of the qualifying questions on their website).

You also referred to WS who expect understanding. For myself, I don't expect understanding. Understanding is grace, it is an undeserved gift. What I expect and deserve is judgment. Before I fell, I did more than my share of judging others. It's always easier to see
and focus on other's faults rather than our own. While I still expect judgment from others, one of the gifts of recovery is I no longer accept the kind of blaming and shaming that treats me as subhuman or worthless (which is what my wife is prone, in her worse moments, to heap on me).

Thanks for sharing with me out of your healing.

Stephan, Thank you so much for your response. To answer a few of your questions up front: my wife refuses to talk to a counselor. She semi-agreed to talk to my boss who is a Christian psychologist (and he knows my whole story). She says there's no need for a counselor because her mind is made up. My challenge has been to go for herself, maybe a counselor would tell her to leave the jerk(me) but she says she doesn't want to pay the money for it. I don't believe that my wife is involved with anyone else. She is a flight attendant but is almost never gone over night. I do believe the drive to divorce has been fed by co-workers who have been divorced.

I want to say, if only for my own benefit, but also because things I am saying about my wife here are not exactly flattering to her, that most of the time she is marvelous person. Like most she has areas that need growth and issues from the past she needs to face, but I enjoy her company so much and long for her companionship. She is fun, thoughtful, considerate, and generally upbeat.

You wrote: "My W's history--- the 13 or so R's she been in, every one before she would end things with current guy, she would bring another into the picture first. Including ehr first M, at the tenth month."

Your wife's history is that of an addict. Serial relationships/marriages/infidelities are often the sign of addictive insanity: failing to learn from our pain and powerlessly/compulsively repeating choices that have brought us so much pain in the past. IF she is an addict, I have two observations. First, it is MUCH more difficult for female sex/relationship addicts than male. There is much more shame for women. In the recovery groups I attend, SLAA has many more women than SA because the L stands for Love addiction. But sex is almost always a component of the addiction (as love often is for men....it certainly is for me). Shame is what keeps the addict in denial and trapped. My second observation IF she is an addict is that, if one is available, a co-group such as S-anon or CoSa, may help with your own healing and in the way you relate to your wife. Your loyalty to her is amazing. Your daughter's health struggle and missing of her mommy is heart-breaking. Your wife is mortally injuring herself to not respond to that plea. Yet most likely the pain and shame of reality is what keeps driving her into the fantasy-escape of these other men. It takes enormous courage for ANY person to face their sickness and to go to a recovery group whether it relates to addiction or co-addiction. But there is support and healing there. Stephan, I hope you'll consider pursuing that support and healing for yourself (and your children).

Stephan, one way your telling your story helps me is that it makes even my present situation look not nearly as difficult as yours. Thanks for blessing me.

Ktulu, Thanks for sharing from your journey of healing and the encouragement of your progress. So much of what you shared sounds like my wife and I's experience for the last 3+years. You said that the breakthrough "came about from each of us admitting both of us deserve happiness, that sure there are other potentials, that first we needed to be ourselves. I feel a lot of it comes back to personal self-esteem & honesty with ourselves about who we really are."

Wow, very powerful. In our better moments we've approached this but we seem to lose this sense in the busyness and challenges of everyday life.

You said that I'm frightened and you're exactly right. It's a complex fear with many strands all the way from fear of abandonment and fear of being unloveable to the fear of being crushed by the grief of this loss (if it happens). Already I've had hours when I felt like my sadness was going to suffocate me. Even though I am still living in the same house, I already miss her.

XS - Reading your post brought alot of feeling out in me...

I give you credit for facing your demons..for realizing you had an addiction - though, if you never cheated in 13 years - how do you just become an addict???
How can you be sure you were addicted to either being in love/relationship or addicted to the sex - or was it just sex w/someone you shouldn't be having sex with??
Were there also emotional needs that these women met?
What high did you get from these OW?
How did you treat your wife while you were cheating?
What caused your to seek help - to realize "you" had a problem?

Sorry for all the ? but I truly believe my WH is addicted to all aspects of "cheating"..and I can't get inside his head or make/help him face his demons..Basically, I believe our M is a lost cause..he won't stop and he won't get help.

I truly hope your wife can work thru this - I wish my WH had your strength/emphathy to see what he's doing to everyone..I would forgive my WH immediately if he only quit and got help. I would love for my WH to reach out to me - I'd be there for him..Please don't bash me for this - but, your BW needs to open her heart again - if she where - were I am today she'd really be miserable. She should be happy that you have changed and want a true partnership/marriage/intimacy again.

I know I played a part on our marriage not being all that it could - but, even if I gave 150% and he truly is an addict like I "think" he is - it wouldn't have mattered.

It does sound like she is still hurting, insecure etc. She may be afraid that if she lets her guard down that it will happen again. I started IC when I "thought" he was cheating - to improve myself - so he would love ME..finding out it was never about me..It's about his low self-esteem, insecurities, etc. that can only be hightened w/affairs. Making others see only the good side of you and never the true person that you are..

I hope your wife works thru this - maybe get some books that you can read together - show her daily that you are a changed man that you can never go back to that dark place you were in during your addiction..reassure her w/o seeming weak..Do it/show her w/strength..

As another poster suggested maybe she's pushing your buttons to test you to see if you are in it for the long haul - suggest you renew your vows since your 20th anniversary is coming up. Start over - treat her as a date - call her, give her attention - love is a choice and she can make that choice again..I wish it were this easy for me...HUGS....

XS, You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Both have co-groups but wife, without even trying them, disdainfully assumes that they're made up of women who are 'losers.' Besides, in her mind, this is my problem and mine alone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny, doesn't matter what the addiction, but that is always the attitude of the co. I went to Al-Anon originally about 20 years ago looking for a way to fix my H (we were not yet married). I, too, believed it was his problem not mine, but I would be able to "help" him, essentially by telling him what he needed to do to make me feel better. I went in and out of Al-Anon for years - using it as a safe place to vent when my friends were sick of listening - but never interested in sticking around with a bunch of "losers." I was way too self absorbed to see they were dealing with their problems and many were even happy and serene while my life was in chaos. Instead, I always saw myself as different.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, I attended my first Al-Anon meeting the other night. Given the current circumstances, I felt like I needed a meeting and there were no S-group meetings. I am an ACOA and have the relational and personal tendencies that go with that (I could answer 'yes' to all 20 of the qualifying questions on their website).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've heard it said in Al-Anon that codependency is the basic underlying "dis-ease" common to all addictions, though I've heard some alcoholics argue this (of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Hopefully your wife will realize that no matter what you do, she will not feel comfortable in her own skin until she looks at herself. It's so hard to hear this when you already feel like a victim. It feels like you're being blamed for your own victimization. Of course, in some respects this is true, but, as you know, it doesn't absolve the addict/abuser of responsibility for his/her own behavior. Both 12-step programs and MB focus on personal responsibility.

I now believe my WH was always cheating on me. I couldn't accept this while we were together. It was so much safer to look only at his alcoholism and drug addiction. The hardest part was recognizing that I wasn't really as completely oblivious as I liked to think. There were always signs that I chose to ignore while my self-esteem plummeted. I stuffed more and more feelings, becoming more and more unhappy and undoubtedly less pleasant to be around. My long-suffering attitude merely provided another excuse for WH's behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You also referred to WS who expect understanding. For myself, I don't expect understanding. Understanding is grace, it is an undeserved gift. What I expect and deserve is judgment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I was filled with resentment I heard many WS posts as justifications or else attempts to sweep their behavior under the rug. I think we all want to be understood. What I wanted most as a BS was for my WH to understand how profoundly betrayed I felt. I found that understanding here from others who were experiencing the same depth of pain. I don't think a WS can really ever understand this - it has to be experienced - anymore than a BS can understand why the WS did what he/she did. And only in Al-Anon can I find understanding of what it's like to love an alcoholic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before I fell, I did more than my share of judging others. It's always easier to see and focus on other's faults rather than our own. While I still expect judgment from others, one of the gifts of recovery is I no longer accept the kind of blaming and shaming that treats me as subhuman or worthless (which is what my wife is prone, in her worse moments, to heap on me). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how we "victims" retaliate against those we believe have hurt us and only serves to drive us farther apart. I've learned here and in Al-Anon not to give away responsibility for my own happiness to someone else, especially someone who can only hurt me more. So, for me right now, no contact is the answer. If I was trying to reconcile, I would be forced to deal more deeply with trust issues and taking responsibility for my behavior, and only my behavior. When we did try, briefly and without sobriety, we, too, shared some moments of deeper communication than ever before, but then we'd drift apart and the resentments would surface and tear us apart. I admire all those who are able to survive this phase of recovery from infidelity and build a stronger marriage.

ITHURTS

I don't mind your asking. It actually encourages me to think that just maybe some understanding or good could come from my choices which have caused so much pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I give you credit for facing your demons..for realizing you had an addiction - though, if you never cheated in 13 years - how do you just become an addict???
How can you be sure you were addicted to either being in love/relationship or addicted to the sex - or was it just sex w/someone you shouldn't be having sex with??
Were there also emotional needs that these women met?
What high did you get from these OW?
How did you treat your wife while you were cheating?
What caused your to seek help - to realize "you" had a problem? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Being in recovery has forced me to look back and taught me to recognize the patterns of addiction. They were there long before I first committed adultery. At the risk of saying too much, the patterns showed up early in my life through compulsive fantasy and masturbation as a way of coping with life or medicating pain. The patterns also showed up in my dating relationships before marriage. While I did not have much 'casual sex' I had a hard time having a relationship with a woman without it including some form of sexual activity. But certainly the addiction became full blown around the time of straying from my marriage. Just as a person can become a drug addict or alcoholic at any age, persistence in certain choices or behaviors gets us to a point where we 'lose' the power to choose right. That's where the 'insanity' of addiction takes over. For me I think it happened before my first extramarital affair; it happened ON THE WAY to that affair. It happened when I began lying to myself about what was really happening in my online chats with women and lying to myself about where it was headed. Addiction is based on DENIAL which is essentially lying to ourselves. It is also based on secrets.

It's often hard to distinguish between sex addiction and love addiction because for many, sex, even in casual or perverse forms, signifies love for the addict. Here in MB sex and intimacy may be a person's top emotional need (and legitimately so). For the addict, the addict often CAN'T feel loved without sex. Yet it is a fleeting feeling which needs continuous renewing. I don't believe it's possible for anyone, even another sex addict to give a sex addict enough sex that they would just feel loved. The problem is deeper.

Did these women meet emotional needs also? Well when sex is an emotional need (as it is for me) sure they did. Yet in my experience (and addicts have different experiences), only my first affair really provided much for me emotionally. At that point I had just turned 40 and was struggling emotionally in several ways. One of them was feeling like my wife did not desire me and there was no passion in our marriage or in our sexual intimacy with each other. I know that some bs would prefer to think of their ws as only having a physical sexual experience and not an emotional one as the emotional bonding can seem to be a greater betrayal than the physical acts. All I can say is that BOTH are wrong, both are acts of infidelity and it really doesn't help to make one or the other worse. If a person has emotional needs and someone else starts meeting them, unless they stop any involvement with that person, they are going to end up with some emotional attachment. And often the emotional attachment leads to physical/sexual involvement.

According to researchers, the pleasure centers in the human brain stimulated by sexual activity are the same ones affected by morphine. I don't mean to be discouraging but the reality is that many drug addicts and alcoholics who are also sexual addicts will attest that drugs and alcohol are much easier addictions to overcome. That extreme ecstasy of sexual experience has many lesser but still very potent nonsexual forms: infatuation, feeling desired is a major ego boost and pleasure hit. Many addicts IDEALIZE their romantic or sexual interests making them more pleasureable to be with or receive attention from because the addict is seeing them as way better than they really are! BTW--while I have stayed sober from my sexual bottomline and do consider myself recovering, I do not speak of my addiction as past tense. I AM an addict. While to the co-addict (like my wife) that sounds like a terrifying truth, any addict who is really working their program knows there is a blessing there too. As the SA White book says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How fortunate we are, then, to be so needy that we have to find what our lust was really looking for--the loving God who is our refuge and our strength. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovery isn't just about staying sober from sexual acting out but getting well, which is healing the roots of where the acting out comes from.

I thought I treated my wife really good while I was involved with other women. She has said the same thing (though now she obviously views it differently). I often thought then that what I was having with these other women, I really wanted with my wife. But I didn't know how that could happen. MB might've helped a lot.

I think I knew all along I had a problem. I tried numerous times to stop. The addict's problem is not stopping but staying stopped! I did not realize the depth of my problem until I got into recovery and kept going to meetings.

Unfortunately I didn't reach out for help until some, unintentional on my part, exposure occurred that raised questions. All of a sudden we were in crisis and I KNEW I would either have to lie big time or start telling the truth. I feebly chose the latter and the immediate sense of relief from having the secret out confirmed that it was the right thing to do. God also put some very good friends in my life who I could go and be honest with who wouldn't condemn me but walked with me on the very painful road of facing my wrongs.

I am so sorry for your pain and hurt and for your hubby's continuing in his sickness. For his sake I hope God will bring him to the point of brokenness and surrender. And while I hope that would lead to a healing of your marriage too, I don't say 'for YOUR sake' because your future cannot and must not depend on what he chooses. And now I'm speaking to myself too: my future cannot and must not depend on whether my wife follows through and divorces me or not. I intensely hope she won't but regardless I must see my future in God's hands not hers. May God give me the grace to live these words. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

XS - Thank you for explaining about addictions including sexual type. I guess I'm quite uneducated about addictions. My WH problems may not be soley based on SA it could also include the type of sex/partner that can bring him to orgasm.

Even while dating our sex life wasn't great - just very basic. I always felt that he was inhibited so I didn't push him - yes, I was avoiding conflict - but you do that when you are under their emotional control. After marriage sex became less and less frequent - he treated me good, we seemed to have fun together and he'd say he loved me and gifts became larger. Nothing I wanted was ever denied except sex. There was always an excuse not to..It got to vacation/hotel sex only..

2 years ago he hooked up w/an old friend that is a loser...My WH and I own a very profitable business in a small community - we are well liked professionals - why hang out w/losers when we have wonderful couples that we have built friendships with??? He's gone as far as having 2 A's w/employees..Ouch...
My WH started to treat me w/so much disrespect - he totally changed. He began drinking more, talking to this guy all the time, and then I caught him cheating..he's at the point where he just doesn't care about anything or anyone anymore..except his OW. He has shut me out totally and I've shut him out. We rarely even speak and we do nothing together since exposure. I truly believe this "friend" brought out the worst in him - they are re-living their youth.

In checking phone bills etc. WH has many women he's involved with. I don't know about all of them - but a few are well below his/our level. These aren't women you would take home to momma..
All are M women..How do you justify many women????

Possibly some of them fill his EN and some are for SF only. Yet, each may empower him enough to stay checked out of our M.

I feel that I cannot meet any of my WH EN or SN because I haven't a clue anymore what they are..He will not admit any needs to me..He refuses MC or IC. He is beyond denial - he has justified his behaviour and will not look into his soul.

I'm glad that you realized that you needed to tell the truth and get help - that the cycle had to end. My WH cannot and will not tell the truth to anyone except his "loser" friend. He denies his A's to everyone else,

I too hope that my WH hits bottom - I will be there to pick him up and help him. I've prayed many times - I know he's had some close calls with BH - but, apparently not close enough. And there are many, many OW - just waiting for an A w/ a professional man unknowing of what really lies within them. He is an expert con-man.

I think with him it also goes back to some childhood issues/masturbation - though, he'd never openly admit this to me - I just "feel it"..I think the seed was planted that sex/touching others-self is WRONG...and that's why he chooses who he does for SF..

My future DOES DEPEND on what he chooses. I love this man with all my heart. I cannot move forward - I cannot leave him...Maybe this is God's wish for me...to teach me that I am stronger than I think - that I can carry a large burden (hope it doesn't kill me) should he file for divorce then I'd have to move on but I won't be the one to file. Others on this BB have given me great advise so many feel I should have moved to Plan B long ago - but working together everyday doesn't make for a good Plan B. And deep within myself I don't think Plan B would even shake him up enough to seek help. With his "I don't care" attitude - he'd just block all memory of me out and that would hurt me too. But, isn't that attitude pretty similar in any type of addiction???

I know it's painful to stay in this M - but, for now the pain of going would be greater. There are days when I wish he would just move out and leave me - but, if part of his high - is being M and cheating - he'd lose that part of the SF.

I wish your wife could just open up and feel like I do right now..I so want my M and my WH I'd do just about anything to have him in recovery and wanting to be M to me..She needs to want your M to recover as much as you wanted to be free of the addiction...

My best to you - maybe Santa will be bring love and healing to both of us...Hey, I asked last year - guess he didn't make to my house..YET