lady-in-red- Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone really does understand and can see through all the stuff that bp22 says.. He is sincere, but severely confused. By the way, my husband and I were out in Pasadena for a year when he was a graduate student at Caltech in the Astrophysics department!!! He transferred because we both hated the fast pace, the smog and the zillions of people. Small world, huh? Thanks again. I could use someone like you as a friend. Mary.

mp22, I as well as my husband were dealing with a lot of hurt and anger. It isn't easy to let go of but without trying to do that you can not go forward.

I also understand not feeling good enough. My husband would request things I (at least in my mind) would do what he asked. He would say how wonderful it was and then a week or two later tell me that it wasn't. Mixed messages and very confusing.

What in reality was happening, is that he didn't know how to tell me exactly what he wanted and I most certainly didn't know how to give it. So basicly it boiled down to miss communication on both of our parts.

It sounds like one thing that your husband wants is more adult conversation. I say this based on several things, but one in particular is my situation. When it comes to every day things I can talk his ear off, when it comes to intimate details I don't do so well.

However, your husband has to stop treating you like a child. Like I said, if he wants you to be equal he needs to treat you like you are.

You both have a lot of work to do and it is not going to come easy. The only question is where do you start. One of you will have to take the step forward and put your guard down in order to start. That is not going to be easy for either one of you to do.

Understand that I can see things from both sides of the fence and I as well as my husband are only trying to help, not take sides. I can definately understand how you feel, but on the other hand I can understand how your husband feels as well.

Contrary to how you perceive what I say, I do not think I am better than most people. I am different, but I am not better. It is not up to me to say who is better. I am, however, confident and happy with me. It's funny...becuase I have spoken many time with folks at work...at none of them would consider me arrogant. Of course, I suppose we all are at work. Confident, yes, arrogant...no. Quite the opposite actually. And sarcastic? Often I guess.

How else do you respond to "You need Jesus".

And I agree, I could try and say things differently. I guess I call it "sugar coating" everything so as not to offend anyone. Sometimes people agree to disagree to much I think. Mary mentioned I have said she is like a withering flowering in a conversation...I think this is a good analogy actually. She has a hard time accepting comments/critisism. Yes, I know, I do little to help her self-esteem Iguess. And I try to do this.

And one more thing, in my description of wanting someone who is more curious, more seeking for answers...The word I should use is more passionate. Passionate for somethign that I enjoy too. Music, nature, science, whatever...just pure absolute un-ending passion that I can share with.

SO, while I can understand your perception of me saying "I'm too good for you"...it is not what I am trying to say. I'm just saying "Engage me. Do something to intrigue me. Say something...do somethign...so me something to be interested in."

Yes, Caltech is a great place. I loved being there...it is top notch for Astronomy. Although Pasadena and southern california are not for me. Give me the mountains and woods, especially without millions of other people.

Thanks again!

The last post was from bp22....sorry, starting typing a reply when mp22 was in the kitchen and logged in.

OK. So does or doesn't the following show disrespect? My hubby talking to me about the woman he had an "affair" with(we call her the *****) and telling me that if he could combine me with her then he would like me a lot better. He told me that I should write again and tell all the horrible things I did tonight. I threw a napkin holder at him, almost threw the telephone, and told him (all in anger of course) that I would like to stab him a zillion times(yes, I really said a zillion). Can you tell that I was really, really mad? He upset me because he was saying that I shouldn't be hurt by the things he says. He told me in a whining , sarcastic voice "oh did I hurt you? Are you going to become a wilting flower again?" When I asked" so it's not ok for me to feel hurt when you say(whatever)? He said " no those things shouldn't make you sad". How can he tell me what does or should hurt me or not? Why does feeling hurt make me weak? Also, does the fact that I want to work with the elderly in some fashion when I finish my nursing degree this spring make me boring? He told me that he's embarrassed that I want to do this and he thinks that I should work in the OR or the ER instead because those are more highly looked upon. NOTHING I do pleases him. It's never good enough. First I didn't have a goal or passion in life and now that I found something that really makes me happy and is really fulfilling then it's not good enough because it's not prestigeous (spelled wrong) enough!!!!!! He told me that all I do is ***** about him here and I guess he's right. I have no one else to talk to and when I talk to him he disregards most everything I say. Like tonight we had a conversation and when we were done he swore that once again I had nothing to say. Well, was he just talking to himself for a half an hour. I obviously didn't say anything to "engage" him so it didn't count. When I was working at the hospital(I was a nurse extern and worked 150hrs. in the med/surg. ward) then I could talk to people and they listened to me and cared about what I said. I mattered there and I had my own identity. I really miss that. Everytime we have a conversation bp22 says the same things over and over.(and he thinks that I'm boring). He's right- we don't have real conversation and I miss that interaction with someone who respects me and cares about me as a person and about what I think. Ok, ok so I've been rambling on again. I need to find some friends fast before I bore everyone here with my *****ing! Thanks. Mary.

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

What you two have going on here is what my husband would refer to as a power struggle and a really good cat fight. Not once have either one of you said that the other could have a point about anything.

H- Stop being a scientist for a minute and try being a husband. Try putting yourself in your wifes place and try to feel how horrible your words make her feel. You said that you aren't helping her self esteem, well Duh. I'm sorry to sound so snotty, but you aren't being very nice. You say you want to share walks atc. with your wife, then do it. Go for a walk, hold her hand and talk to her. Really talk, dont belittle her, don't argue, try really telling her about your feelings. Stop bringing up the other woman and get rid of those shirts. Quit rubbing it in her face that you had an afair. Why should you care whether she is a nurse in a nursing home or an er. Be proud of her because she is who she is, stop trying to change her. Was she a nurse in the er when you fell in love with her? NO. You want her to be able to understand your work then tell her about it, explain it.

W- It sounds to me like your entire life is overwheling you. You are going to school, taking care of the house and the kids and then your husband. Does he help around the house? Does he help with the kids? Do you ever have any time for yourself? If the answer to these questions is no, then it is no wonder you feel so overwhelmed. I know been there done that.

You both can continue to post and I think that is good, but the bottom line is you all need a counselor. You need someone that you both can talk to that is non-biased. Here you will always find someone to take your side and that isn't what you all need. You need someone that can help you understand what the other one is feeling.
Of course going to a counselor would mean that you will have to really WANT to save this marriage.

My two cents for what it is worth.

Thanks again everyone for your replies. Mary.

I agree...posting here can become pointless...reading what is said, thinking about it, analyzing it and myself, then doing it...that can be useful.

I did say there was things I could do to help my relationship...be more careful how I say what I say...etc. I know I have my faults and things to change...I try...just wish it was mutual.

Over the past year, I have been working as normal and building a new house for the family. Alone...completely alone. So, I'd say that's a YES, I do stuff around the house. And all last year when mary was in school, I did get the kids up and on the bus. No problems...I love that. I am a great father...not such a great husband.

What I wish would happen...and maybe a counselour would help, although I suspect maybe only a live-in counselor...I wish MARY (LOL) could somehow be "forced" to analyze herself more...instead of analyzing me. She's very good at that...but never has she ever talked to me about what she could do to help herself. I actually have...believe it or not.

I think it would be wonderful if Mary would read books and have a general interest in things and the world around us. That is the conversation I long for. In 12 years of marriage, we have (I'd say) never discussed the events of the world (from politics to 11SEP to the financial scandals...to wars...to Desert Storm...anything.) Nothing. It just doesn't happen. That is very tough for me to take.

So, OK, we are going on a little trip this weekend. I will do EVERYTHING I can think of to put her first and up high were she should be. Personally I think I have been putting that first foot forward for the past 3 years, save a few months in 2000, and have been handed everything back from "You need Jesus" to some wonderful moments together. Yes, there have been a few...always with the kids...but a start indeed.

OK, that's enough. Thanks for your help...I have to go read if a "man of science" can believe in god...

I can be sarcastic, eh?

Here are some quotes by bp22 and mp22 from the Divorcing board to help explain bp22's high expectations.

I have high expectations...I know this. It can be a double edged sword. And it HAS to be nasty for people who don't share similar high expectations.
So many people live such fake lives, pretending, denial, call it what you want...and they call it happiness. If people would be more honest with themselves, what a different place the world would be. Maybe not better, mind you, but certainly different.

To be very honest, I don't think I ever was in love with my wife. I literally had a plan at 12, and never thoguht about it again...and married at 20. At 30, I realized the importance in life...what I yearned for. Honestly, there is no attraction to her. I don't think I ever loved my wife...it's not about trying to recapture or rekindle, its about falling in love. And I don't think this can be forced... Some people rub you the wrong way, for whatever reason. And you'd never marry one of these people...at least not knowingly. I guess it seems to me I am trying to fall in love with someone I am not attracted to. And I don't think that can work.

I think it boils down to the fact that I am not attracted to her, to who she is, to how she carry's herself, how she acts, what she does, etc. and then I find it very difficult to intentionally make the effort to meet her needs. It feels so fake...so empty...so contrived...because there is no attraction. I have done this so many times over the past 3 years...and everytime a piece of my heart is torn away when I do not get the response I am looking for.
Now that is a problem, the fact that I have expectations. But don't we all have expectations of everything? Maybe mine are too high...but that is me...I can't change them without settling for something that I don't want.

One of the problems is....my wife has NO dreams, NO goals, NO ambitions. When I said she grew up rather poor, and was engrained with "you can't have anything" attitude, I was not kidding. Neither of us are materialistic, this is a good thing, but if I had a billion dollars, there's nothing I could even buy her/set up for her that would make her happy. It's kinda weird. No, I'm not saying its all about money or money buys happiness, I'm just saying she is literally without dreams.

Since I have been 10 years old, and no doubt before, I have always wanted to build a log cabin in the middle of the woods. Well, that's what we are doing, except it is not exactly log, but it is in the middle of the woods. Is it her dream???? Well, she has no dream.

I do not place her where she belongs. In fact i will go one step further, I have little respect for her (in a big sense of the word). This is improving slightly, but it would sure help if something she did would encourage it. But I am not attracted to how she handles herself, how she parents (for the most part), what she says and how she acts. It is this very thing...what I call the lack of attraction to her as a person (I don't mean physcial...) that seems to prevent me from placing her on the pedestal she does indeed deserve.

But I realized a few years ago that I didn't like this...I wanted someone stronger, more ambitious, passionate. That's the best word to use...passion. She has none...I perhaps have to much. Not sexual (but there's those problems too) but just passion for life. For many things in life. If only I could find something she was passionate about....it would be such a wonderful start.
I am trying...and I am listening. I do agree I don't place her were she needs to be...yet I can't do this. It, to me, seems like a fundamental issue about who we are and fundamental differences. These things, I think, basically can't change. So then it seems you just have to decide to accept...to settle. I'm not very good at settling. I can do it for a spell, even a spell of 10 years if need be, but it sure isn't happiness."

And here is one from Mary:

"Unfortunately bp22 has no respect for me or my d ecision. He is appalled that I want to do something as "lowly" as work with the elderly and he embarrassed by it. So you can see why he says the stuff he does about no goals etc. Just because they don't fit into his "expectations" for his life. He also says that I have no confidence and a low self-esteem, and that I have not grown over the years or since I went back to school. Bull again!!!! I don't understand why he is so blind to the way things really are. It's hard after you're partner has been unfaithful and verbally abusive for years.(although he has improved in this area) We went to counseling for a while, but he was not very cooperative. Of course everything is my fault because I am not the person that he wants me to be."

BP22 has stated over and over he does not care for his wife, never did and she actually rubs him the wrong way. MP22 has noticed this by his actions and words. How to change this? I don't know. She is not miraculously going to become his IDEAL wife, and he isn't going to give up HIS dream. I sure hope the Harley's can figure this one out.

I reread the last post...which is mostly my words...and it is a good summary of how I feel, sadly. I just don't know how to suddenly "choose" to be attracted to someone.

And as I said, it is I that changed and realized this at 29.5, not mp22.

But I don't think I ever hope someone will be my "fantasy girl". I just need to be engaged. I don't have a checklist, I do have desires. To be honest, the attraction to the OW in the past was things that I'd never really have ever listed on my "fantasy girl" list. I guess that's what I'm saying...there's no checklist, no template.

I don't think I'm an [censored] kind of person...but I do have expectation of others, and even higher from myself I guess.

Yet it does have to be something I am interested in...something I can share and enjoy.
I guess I can't just get excited about anything...although most things interest me.

I agree, I don't know what's next or how to change the expectations. I think it is easy to think I am the bad guy putting down my verbally abused wife. That's not how I see it...although no doubt I should just be more quiet I suspect. But to me that is the "quietly discontent" spouse...which is a hideous way to live.

And its OK if people attack me...I don't consider it verbal abuse. That's how, in my field, people learn and grow. I didn't actually want to spend my life proving I'm right, proving I'm better, so I never became faculty!! LOL Much nicer to worry about making it work...not proving I'm better.

And finally, I am so happy to have one person here in these forums. A month or so ago I told mp22 I was talking to people about our marriage again...and she of course assumed I was chatting in Yahoo with more ladies. LOL (but true) Yet I was here, truely trying to search out ideas/suggestions/guidance. But best of all was when mp22 replied to a earlier posting...she actually came to the site! I think that is wonderful...and today she writes in the other thread that we BOTH has issues! WAHOO! That alone has made my week!

I am something of the eternal hopefull...and I am far from giving up. Thanks to all!
(PS---> I am doing the equivalent of anti-prayer for you all to see the light! LOL)

Ding ding, you can come out of your corners...

My God, reading these posts has brought back some unpleasent memories...

The interesting thing is, while most see bp22 as sarcastic and uncaring (and I don't necessarily disagree), I can identify.

While I chose a profession that is touchy feely, not hard and scientific, I could have been a biologist if I had chosen such.

And I too have had the thought that--in all honesty--I wish my H was just plain smarter. In fact, I took this feeling to my IC at the time and asked her if I should continue in a relationship with someone I can't talk to on that level (while he is actually an intelligent man, the truth is that he just doesn't care about politics, science, new breakthroughs, etc. He's more of a football and WWF kind of guy. I tried the NPR thing with him, and he rolls his eyes and turns it off every time.).

Know what my IC said, bp? She said I was arrogant. She reminded me that even though I don't connect with my H on an intellectual level as much as I would like, our emotional connection cannot be denied. And she asked me why I married my H, for conversation or companionship?

I have intelligent friends if I want a political debate. I have friends I can talk to about the latest counseling theories. I have this board to connect with others in my situation. And I have my H to love and honor me as I do him--to meet my ENs, not my Intellectual Ns.

My suggestion? Without cheating, branch out. AT this point, you are gonna have to learn to love your W for who she is or don't love her at all--it is too painful for her, and not fair to her at all.

BTW--I finally got him to read a book--Harry Potter. And now he reads constantly and doesn't pay attention to me lol. Be careful what you wish for.......
EJ

Well, EJ, I think you have said it more or less perfectly as it is. Seems like the solution might be to branch out, put more value into friendships were I can get my "intellectual needs" fulfilled.

I hope you are happy with that...I don't think I can be...but perhaps that is what I should do. But if I wanted to do that, well, how is that different than a divorce? At least some kind of a partial emotion divorce? I think many many people do this...fill their lives with other people...maybe that is my problem.

Your statement of your counselor's question...Why did you marry him? That is a good question. And for me, the answer is really unknown. mp22 and I were childhood friends...since age 6 for me...at 12 I "decided" I would marry her...at 14 we started dating...at 20 married.

The point is, things are different then and now!

And by all means, I hope this thread does not sound like a boxing match. I'm sorry if it does. That is not my intention at all. Just trying to explain me, who I am, and how I see things. Not sure how you can offer any suggestions if I don't.

And, oh, by the way, can't read Harry Potter in our house, it is too EVIL! LOL, but no joke.
(sorry mp22...) At least mp22 won't read/watch Harry.