Today I received the divorce papers in the mail. I knew they were coming but somehow still hoped they wouldn't. I don't want this divorce yet I feel powerless to stop it. Should I contest it? Should I just give in and go quietly? I know that my wife has been tortured mentally by the thoughts of my infidelities. I've been in recovery (12 step Sexual addiction recovery)for the last 3+ years but she has still kept on having cycles of torturous thoughts feeling like she never could stay married to man who cheated on her. I do love her; should I make this easy or try to draw it out and hope she changes her mind?

looks like you've been a member for a few years, is that correct? Anyways, my w was the WS and she tried to get me to sign papers, I humored her and filled them out but lovingly would not sign them. I, like you, wanted my M to work out, which it has, so I could not sign them. I don't know at what point I would have signed, but I am glad I didn't.

God bless,
knight

XScoundrel,

yes you should--

And ask her if she would like to date you as you did before you married--so that she can take time to rebuild her trust in you--

Have you apologized to her? Have you asked her to forgive you?

Besides the 12 step programs have you figured out WHY you made the choices you did? And have you made the changes in your life that could help her learn to trust you again?

What changes have you made in the past 3+ years that would cause her to trust you not to cheat on her again?

What if the same situation happened again? Or similiar circumstances? How can she know that you will turn to her and not someone else?

Like I said--You could ask her if she would be willing to date you after the divorce--and not all the time--but occassionally--so that she can rebuild the trust--

Rebuilding your relationship on a new foundation--

ThornedRose

Thanks for taking time to respond.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you apologized to her? Have you asked her to forgive you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to admit that these questions offended me. Maybe you're just not taking anything for granted but I can't imagine anyone with a shred of common sense and human decency who had any sense of responsibility for what they had done NOT apologizing and asking for forgiveness. Have I? Over and over. Dozens of times. With anguished tears and heart-broken contrition.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Besides the 12 step programs have you figured out WHY you made the choices you did? And have you made the changes in your life that could help her learn to trust you again? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There were MANY factors involved in my making the choices I did.`Some related to our marriage and the dynamics in it, some related to strictly personal factors, some related to stressors in my work responsibilities at the time, and many other things as well. As far as changes go, even my wife has said that I have changed dramatically. At one point, she said that I now am the kind of man she wants to be married to except for one thing...my history of infidelity. (BTW--my infidelities didn't start until after we had been married over 13 years and I did not have anyone I was involved with at D-day--there was no OW to have to stay away from as I had no ongoing contact).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if the same situation happened again? Or similiar circumstances? How can she know that you will turn to her and not someone else? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The marital dynamics that played into my infidelity ARE still in place and reoccur on a regular basis (wife's rejection, distancing, rage, demeaning, verbal abuse, sexual non-responsiveness, lack of companionship). These didn't start after my infidelities were discovered. Truth is I can't turn to her during those times. And recovery has taught me that I don't have to. With God's help, I can take care of myself and be a whole person in and of myself). When my wife's brokenness is exhibited in the ways I've mentioned, she doesn't need my brokenness needing her to fill me up (and when she can't, that empty space is wide open for someone else to fill). She needs a whole person who can love her without trying to fix her. By God's grace and the help of the fellowship of recovery, I am growing into becoming that whole person.

Having said all that, I DO know that there are still areas of compulsivity/unhealthiness in my life that concern my wife. I still struggle with keeping healthy boundaries in a number of personal areas (not enough sleep, work too much, etc...) I have grown a lot and I have a long way to grow.

XScoundrel,

--I have to admit that these questions offended me. Maybe you're just not taking anything for granted but I can't imagine anyone with a shred of common sense and human decency who had any sense of responsibility for what they had done NOT apologizing and asking for forgiveness.

TR--Please don't be offended--but your right, I don't take it for granted that people say they are sorry and seek forgiveness--I know many people who stop at the "I'm Sorry" and leave it at that--as they don't realize forgiveness (both asking and giving) plays a major part in healing--

It really doesn't sound like she has forgiven you at this point--

--The marital dynamics that played into my infidelity ARE still in place and reoccur on a regular basis (wife's rejection, distancing, rage, demeaning, verbal abuse, sexual non-responsiveness, lack of companionship).

TR--Would they change if you stay married to her if she's not working on her issues?? and is she working on them?

--Truth is I can't turn to her during those times.

TR--However, being able to depend on your helpmate
is a major part of marriage--even if you can't depend on her ALL the time (if there are extenuating circumstances) but she should be the number 1 person you turn too--

--Having said all that, I DO know that there are still areas of compulsivity/unhealthiness in my life that concern my wife. I still struggle with keeping healthy boundaries in a number of personal areas (not enough sleep, work too much, etc...) I have grown a lot and I have a long way to grow.

TR--As we all have a long way to go--but what are you doing to remedy these things?? Have you by chance read the book Boundaries, to help you learn how you change in these areas??

XS - Sorry to hear that your BS went thru w/filing. I was really hoping that she could move past your prior A's. Especially since she's actually seen the changes you are able to make within yourself.

To contest or not...Only you can answer that one..

Your post is saying - your wife also has personality issues that she refuses to address/change - these issues don't make YOU happy or fulfilled. Even if you NEVER stray again, do you want to be M to a person that doesn't make you happy. Her rejecting you, rage, verbal abuse, lack of companionship, etc.

You mentioned that she needs a whole person who will not try to fix her - someone that will accept her for herself and her ways. Who would accept her current behavior?? Your saying you will..WHY??? If you accept her behaviour it's no different than she should accept the A's you were having. You didn't respect her and she doesn't respect you enough to change her ways.

When my WH said "He was the best I was gonna get" - that scared me..If the best I can get is a compulsive liar, a serial cheat, a man that withholds SF from me - it doesn't say much for who I am and what I have to offer any man..Yes, he can be a great guy and say he loves me but only when he wants to - not when I need it..and only on his terms.

What woman would want to be M to my WH?? Only someone that wants the financial lifestyle. Someone that looks the other way and is happy to live a life of lies..He's not gonna change at 51 for me or anyone else..

I've had alot to think about lately too - and I will accept his filing should he decide to do that - why fight him..If he feels he can find or has found someone better then go. I've found that no matter what I've done to try and hold my M together and improve myself as well - it's just not good enough.

I'd still like to shake you BS and have her live in my shoes where there is no remorse, no saying I'm sorry, no trying to change. That's when it hurts even deeper - when the WS just doesn't care anymore..You have shown you care you want to work it out - Why can't she let it go?? Maybe, she just doesn't care anymore...You may have to look at it that way..and let go.

I'm still hoping that she comes around for you, but if she doesn't you may find true happiness without the rage, verbal excuse, etc. that we all deserve...I hipe that for myself too if I end up w/divorce papers.

HUGS

ITHURTS

Thanks for your response. You wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your post is saying - your wife also has personality issues that she refuses to address/change - these issues don't make YOU happy or fulfilled. Even if you NEVER stray again, do you want to be M to a person that doesn't make you happy. Her rejecting you, rage, verbal abuse, lack of companionship, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an excellent question. The pattern has been for my wife to be this way (rejecting, raging, verbally abusive) on a cyclical basis. Before my infidelity she went through a time of being like this for a few days every month! This past year it happened about once a quarter and would last about a week and a half. Most of the rest of the time I LOVE being with my wife. Granted I wish she was more of a companion and much more passionate/less inhibited in intimacy but I do enjoy her company most of the time (and she seems to enjoy mine).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who would accept her current behavior?? Your saying you will..WHY??? If you accept her behaviour it's no different than she should accept the A's you were having. You didn't respect her and she doesn't respect you enough to change her ways. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am certainly not sure my thinking/feeling is right. I know that I am also a 'love addict' and codependant...I tend to live out of the assumption that I need a woman to be a complete person. It's irrational and unhealthy but I am conditioned that way and trying to work hard to change that. I DO see many similarities between her thinking and behavior now in divorcing me and what I did when I was acting out sexually: a certain hardness of heart, self-preoccupation that blocks sober perspective of the consequences of one's choices and actions, too much pride to acknowledge the need for help and reach out and get it. If I could only undo and redo my choices then....

Some of what I am struggling with is the death of my 'dream.' The dream of growing old and continuing to care for the mother of my children; the dream of seeing our children married together, of caring for our grandchildren together, the sense that we have shared at times of being able to share our days with each other and it was meaningful both ways. Now I just feel very lonely and empty....and trying not to fill that emptiness myself but let God do it in His way and time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've found that no matter what I've done to try and hold my M together and improve myself as well - it's just not good enough.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ours is a worthy and noble effort whatever the outcome. But it is also so frustrating and sad. Yes indeed, it hurts and badly.

XS - I see some of myself in your post - "love addict" "codependant". Is that why I'm holding on to someone who can't possibly love me anymore. Who hasn't filed D papers becoz of the financial side of D. Or becoz his OW are married. I've never lived alone or been w/o a BF/H so looking at the future it's scary. I don't want to be alone..But, is that worth living w/someone that doesn't want you that doesn't love you anymore..

I've probably tolerated his "personality issues" because it was easier to let things go then to do battle and D. I can't even imagine "dating" what the heck is that...I want what I thought I had years ago when we seemed happy.


Yes, the dream of spending your old age w/someone you care about. Having someone that can count on you and you on them when things get tough. That's hard to let go of - I know I would be there for my Wh but he'd drop me at the retirement home and never look back. And it's not just me - I think he'd do it to anyone (mother, father, etc.) that would need his time or emotions. I believe he is in spot you WERE in when you strayed. He just doesn't see it nor will his pride allow him to stop..

Have you asked your BS what she thinks her future holds? Have you told her you would be there for her? Made her feel safe?

I also have more good memories of our early times together then I have bad. I hold onto the good thoughts of when we had fun together. I wish he could remember the good times - but, he can't..
I have to start thinking about the past year or two that he's destroyed me emotionally and physically. That he's not shown one ounce of caring for me - but, yet I've been there every time he's needed me forgetting how he hurt me just the day b-4 that..or knowing that he'll do it again..

Are you and your wife still living together? Are you still plan A'ing your butt off...w/o seeming weak and needy???

Do you think she has filed the papers as a way of punishing you and herself??

What are your kids saying about this?? Have they picked a "side" or do they want your M to last?

I wish my WH would talk to me - to say Yes, I want a Divorce, I hate you, I want my freedom to date..
I want the truth to the A's..I know his actions are saying these things - but, I need him to SAY IT...I need to hear it..would that make me file D papers I don't know..I believe as long as I have any love left for him - I won't file..and that will be my weakness and he will and has used it against me..

HUGS...and I'm still rooting for the healing of your marriage..papers or not..

Hi ItHurts, Thanks for sharing my journey and allowing me to share yours. You wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've never lived alone or been w/o a BF/H so looking at the future it's scary. I don't want to be alone..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Loneliness and abandonment are major issues for me. Even with the awareness I've gained through recovery,I still struggle with thoughts and feelings that somehow I am not fully alive unless there is a woman who wants me to be their life-partner and lover. While I know there can be a healthy sense of this, I also know this is a major symptom of my sickness. It causes me to live life 'on hold' rather than fully-engaged and grateful for the many blessings I do have.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, is that worth living w/someone that doesn't want you that doesn't love you anymore.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the part where I get a little confused. Often in readin here on MB, with the concept of the love tank and deposits through meeting emotional needs, it seems that love boils down to feeling like someone is meeting your EN and thus love can be regained/restored by meeting someone's EN. I certainly DON'T want to live with someone who doesn't love me any more. That's worse than being alone....it's being trapped with no opportunity of even connecting with someone who could really love me. While my wife is obviously embittered toward me at the time and I think she is wanting to experience life without the cloud of having a husband who has cheated on her (and who she continually fears could cheat again), it's hard for me to imagine that there isn't any love for me left in her. But that may only be my projection. And even if there is some love left, it may not be enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want what I thought I had years ago when we seemed happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me 2! But for me, it isn't just years ago but a month ago! We've been on a roller-coaster with pleasant and perilous times. Things are never perfect but that's life. But it could be that they were more happy for me than her as I think sometimes she has just been repressing her pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you told her you would be there for her? Made her feel safe?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes...but I think she's afraid to trust me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you and your wife still living together? Are you still plan A'ing your butt off...w/o seeming weak and needy???

Do you think she has filed the papers as a way of punishing you and herself?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are still living together though I am sleeping in a different bedroom. And yes I am plan A'ing my butt off without seeming weak and needy. A couple of times we have sat down to talk about the terms of the divorce in the letter I received from her attorney. I have expressed my desire for us to find another way to resolve things (counseling) and she still refuses. I have also expressed my hurt and anger without being whiney or attacking. I don't know if there is an aspect of her doing this to punish me or herself; she has said she is not doing this to punish me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are your kids saying about this?? Have they picked a "side" or do they want your M to last? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our 18 yo daughter has told us both that she won't pick sides. She clearly sees wife's issues and thinks that she is unrealistic about what it will be like to be divorced. Our older son (16 yo) is VERY close to my wife...too close. I haven't talked with him much about things because I guess I assume he takes my wife's side. Our younger son (12yo) told my wife that "she's taking things too far." He definitely doesn't want us to divorce but feels pretty powerless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't even imagine "dating" what the heck is that...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can relate to this. I was always anxious about dating before I was married and tended instead to get involved in 'relationships' rather than dating casually. I know now that part of this was </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the emotional need I have for sexual fulfillment. Sex can feel like love for me and I have a hard time thinking about not having any sexual intimacy in my life for an extended period of time. It's been a little over 3 weeks now and while I am not continually feeling that need I have moments (that feel like hours) of intense craving for closeness, affection, and intimacy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know..I believe as long as I have any love left for him - I won't file..and that will be my weakness and he will and has used it against me..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you really want to think of love as a weakness that can be used against you? How is he using it against you?

XSCoundrel and ITHURTS, I, too, have been on the same rollercoaster you are on. I, too, miss the good times and the loss of the dream of growing old together. I, too, made changes in myself hoping it would change WH's mind. I, too, refused to let go, believing that the potential for saving our marriage rested solely on my willingness to hang on. I, too, have always jumped into relationships rather than dating.

I was the one who eventually filed, though it took me a long time, and even after I filed, I put the divorce on hold for a year to give the M another try while WH strung me along with promises of getting sober, going to counselling, breaking off relationship with MOW, none of which ever occurred.

We need to let go of the struggle. This doesn't mean stop plan A'ing or giving up. I'm sorry, XScoundrel, that your wife decided to file. It sounds like you've made clear to her that this isn't what you want. But, you can show her that you respect her wishes rather than fighting her on this.

ITHURTS, You will know when the time comes to file, if the time comes to file. Your WH sounds like mine. He probably never would have filed and would've kept the door partly open and kept coming over for whatever he wanted from me (including sex - funny, now that I was the "OW" in a sense, I was more fun) while undermining my confidence as your WH does.

We're the ones who have to believe that we deserve better and can have better, that we are worthy of love and able to give love in return. I know that feeling that it wouldn't be the same with someone else and the truth is, it won't. We won't have the same shared history and family. That's sad and we're grieving that now. My WH told me I'd be a lonely old woman surrounded by cats. Well, so far, that's not the case. I don't know what the future holds, but I have a lot more hope than I did back when I was still hanging on so tightly.

I heard in Al-Anon that "Rejection is God's protection." It sounded trite and corny at the time, but I'm starting to see the truth in it.

Letstry

Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, and hope. It is helping me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We need to let go of the struggle. This doesn't mean stop plan A'ing or giving up. I'm sorry, XScoundrel, that your wife decided to file. It sounds like you've made clear to her that this isn't what you want. But, you can show her that you respect her wishes rather than fighting her on this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am struggling to let go of the struggle! Ah, but even as I write this I'm reminded of the key word in SA recovery: SURRENDER! That is letting go. I have made it clear that I don't want the divorce and a part of me really wants to just let go...I just don't want all the ramifications that go along with the divorce (with our kids, financially, emotionally, with my dreams, etc...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We're the ones who have to believe that we deserve better and can have better, that we are worthy of love and able to give love in return. I know that feeling that it wouldn't be the same with someone else and the truth is, it won't. We won't have the same shared history and family. That's sad and we're grieving that now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VERY WELL SAID! Inspiring, challenging, and sobering.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I heard in Al-Anon that "Rejection is God's protection." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May God give me the grace to understand and embrace this.

XScoundrel, Remember, letting go doesn't promise a certain outcome anymore than hanging on does! Surrender the struggle and then see what happens. There are many here at MB (not necessarily on this particular forum) who've recovered their marriages even when things looked bleakest. However it works out, struggling won't make it any better.

BTW, I answered you on my post to ITHURTS, too.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: LetSTry ]</small>