Can't think of a better title...but time for a new thread...at least for me.

So how much do you give up in a marriage? For those who have been following our boxing match,
hopefully time to turn to more useful thoughts...although I didn't see it as a fight. But that's my
nature to discuss, to debate, to understand, and to fix/heal.

OK, so how much do you give up? How do you do this without feeling alone? How do you
"learn" or "accept" or god forbid "settle" to not have the things that you long for?

EJ suggested friends...fill your life with others that can fulfill your needs. That is a solution.
To me, it seems like running away from the problem? But that's because I assume there is
a "solution" to this "problem"...but I see that there isn't really. Its a fundamental thing...I have
said this for a long time...I guess maybe now its time to realize that fundamentals can't change.

I try to focus on the kids and try to intentionally include mp22 in our family activities. By this I mean
there are different relationships...me and mp22...me and the kids...her and the kids...then all
of us. I try to focus on the all of us. There are some great moments for this...moments I won't
trade.

I am hoping the new house will make a big difference...it will certainly for me I know. I of course
hope mp22's school and eventual work will help her.

But none of these things are me and mp22 directly.

So, what can the two of us do to try and strike something up between us? Folks have mentioned
walks and other activities... I don't mean the "literal" what to do, I mean the more "rhetorical"
what to do? Maybe I think too much! I have been told this before....eh mp22?

And how do you force yourself not to feel frustrated and empty? And when I do, should I not
say so? Should I just keep it to myself and hope and hope and hope? When I say so, I am
"verbally abusing". When I don't, seems to me I am silently discontent. One upsets mp22,
one tears my heart and soul apart. I guess I have always done the selfish thing...(note that
sarcasm again!)

Comments? EJ, if your hubby doesn't meet your IN, when he's watch RAW and the smack down
(sorry for that...) what do you do? Why do you not think its time to move on? What do you
focus on that helps you through it?

Today I have the house...building the house. Its a HUGE sink of energy. I fear tomorrow though..
when the house is more or less done...it'll NEVER be done.

OK, let the constructive ideas fly!
OK, thanks.

RAW lol.

Well, I go back and forth. Some days when I meet a male collegue or have a great discussion with a male friend, I do wonder if I am missing something.

To compound and confuse things, my H had a PA a year ago and we just found out two months ago that he fathered a child in that process. He was also emotionally abusive for the first four years of marriage. SO, of course our struggles go well beyond not being able to discuss things lol.

I think, behind all the drama, I have the same issues you do. We married young (18), and have struggled to find common ground. Just yesterday he criticized the haircut I gave my son because he doesn't like it. Sometimes I think we are oil and water. Where I love a lively debate, he could care less about abortion laws or the treatment vs. prosecution of substance abusers or whatever gets me riled up. Sometimes I feel hopeless and wonder what ever got me in to this mess--and how I could have chosen such a bad match for myself.

However, one thing that I do love about him is that, regardless of whether he cares or has an opinion, he always listens to me. He has learned so much since we've been married, simply by listening to me carry on about this cause or that cool thing I just learned about on NPR. I think maybe my enthusasim is contagious at times.

Because, in truth, my needs are far more simple than a man who can tell you who Stephen Hawking is (and even one who knows which episode of Star Trek he was in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). What I need in a mate is love and attention. ATTENTION! And despite his lack of knowledge or whatever, he does pay attention to me. Or at least, he had been, but that is for my own thread...

So, I guess the answer to your question is I don't know. I do know that at the end of the day, being held and touched and loved is more meaningful to me than having an intellectual discussion. Sometimes I miss that, and I do use my support system to fill the void. Is it perfection? No way. But, it wouldn't be if he was super smart and did not provide me with the emotional, touchy feely needs I have either.

I think that the concept of that "perfect" mate is a total myth. But, maybe that is just my bad luck. Hmmmmmmmm.

Ok, enough blah blah from me.
EJ

Hey EJ, I personally didn't hear a word of blah blah...as I know EXACTLY how you feel.

I think at one point perhaps I too thought all the geeks might be just that, geeks, except me. LOL But alas, I don't think that is true. Most geeks are geeks...but not all. And you said it just right...sometimes I feel like I am missing out on something. A whole lot of something. And likewise I feel like I am making mp22 miss out on things too...because we are oil and water.

I know in all of this I have more or less concluded we DON'T belong together...save we created 3 wonderful kids. But how to move on and be happy and stay together? Not just STAY together, but want to be together?

Right now, the question of how to get to where you can love eachother again plagues me constantly.

I asked him how he could be so sure we would work out--how he knew that I was the one (after all, to him, I hate WWF and the rodeo and most shoot 'em up movies, so what do I have to give him?). He says he just knows, and has faith, and loves me.

Of course, then he goes and withdraws emotionally... Lately actions speak louder than words. Ok, they always have...

I don't know. Going on dates and all that seems like a solution, but I've found that doesn't really work either.

Maybe looking for what you do love? Being in love at 12, you might not even know eachother as adults--you still have that intimate knowledge that teenagers have.

I also started keeping a (secret) running list of pros and cons of my H--not to hurt or show him or even tell him about, but to clarify why I am choosing to stay with this man rather than move on.

Hmmm.
EJ

A couple of days ago I asked mp22 what she thinks she brings to me and my life...and I to her and her life. Besides the kids...

We both came up with the same thing...nothing.

Doesn't seem so good to me.

Actually, I am sure there's more than nothing that we bring to each other...just erased a bunch of typing...not sure if there really are things...

So, do you all think we'd be better off if I just shut up and stopped asking these kinds of questions? I understand they probably hurt to hear...they hurt me to have to ask. So then maybe I should just live and be quiet? I try that...I really do...but to me it seems "fake". As if what you can't see...

I have a question for you EJ.

Do you think your husband really thinks about your marriage? Or just says so?

Wouldn't it be nice to take a pill and forget about these eternal questions we ask?! I know...how about a lobotomy...do they still do those? LOL

bp22, I am really glad to see you ask these questions. I had actually thought I had pegged you wrong.

I do think that my husband could answer your questions a lot better than me, because it wasn't long ago that he said, he simply couldn't live without certain things.

I can tell you this much, both my husband and I have been and still, to a certain extent exactly where you and your wife are. So when we try to give advise it is because we have already tried through trial and error and at least know what didn't work for us.

I can tell you this, i don't think that either one of you necessarily has to give up what you want. What you first have to do is truly understand what it is that the other person wants. Once you both know then it is time to start negotiating and working on fixing things.

I know that you all at least must care about each other or you wouldn't be here. A very good start is to stop throwing stones and start asking questions. Which I assume is what you are ready to do by your post. Good Start.

Step out in a leap of faith, you both need to do that.

Unfortunately my husband doesn't understand what faith is so I don't think that he'll be doing any leaping. Also, he doesn't care about me and my needs- just his own. I don't see him posting anything about how he can make his wife happier or learn to treat her better. Everything is about him and his NEEDS. He's told me many times and all of you too that we aren't meant to be together and that divorce is inevitable. So what is he doing asking all of these questions? I wish if he's going to really divorce me that he would just do it and stop breaking my heart. He tells me that it's not me , but everything he says and does says just the opposite. He doesn't say "oh, I'm just not good enough for my wife. I'm too critical. rude and disrespectful of her and I need to change". No, instead he tells me how I can't do anything right and I'm not what he wants. Poor thing. Does he think that he's my dream spouse? He's always telling me that I don't know good I have it. What a joke! Being married to someone who says that we have absolutely nothing except the kids is not my dream boy!

I decided that I have more to say. Bruce doesn't like the idea of branching out because he doesn't have any friends(me neither). He thinks that we have to do everything together as a family. He hates it if I want to do something with someone other than my family. He doesn't want me to go anywhere without him and the kids. He hates me going to Bible study and puts up a fuss every time. He says things like I'm abandoning my family or that I'd rather be with other people. There's nothing wrong with me having some time away from my family!! I would love to be able to go to a Pampered Chef party or the mall without being made to feel guilty about it. I don't think this behavior is normal. Also, wasn't it kind of Bruce (quote) "to intentionally include mp22 in our family activities". Boy, it sounds like I'm really a part of his life, doesn't it? Could he say anything any more exclusive or hurtful??? 2 more things. He said that maybe my schooling and eventually a job may help me. Help me what? Change into the person that he wants me to miraculously be? Isn't my 4 yr. teaching degree good enough?(don't get me wrong-I love nursing school and do want to be a nurse). Lastly, he DOES think too much. Actually it's not bad to think that much , but unfortunately he's ALL "think" and NO "do". That's all for now. Have to get up early to leave for a trip. We're going to pick up a car that we bought out of state and I AM going to stay over at my sister's with the kids while my husband goes back home the same day. I deserve some fun time for once in my life. I'm really looking forward to this time with her and her husband!!!!!!

Boy, she didn't seem that mad tonight at home! And I helped her with the pool, the kids, everything...Geez.

Hi guys!

You really have a real mess going don't you? I don't know what it is that you guys are looking for. A lot of people here have tried to give some advise, but you seem to have missed much of it.

What can you do? Hmmmmm. Why don't we start with a large dose of genuine human compassion? W here thinks that H is everything but Satan himself. H seems to believe that the grass is MUCH greener.

H, you have an unbelievable amount of raw arrogance coming out. You are hyper critical of your wife. This superiority bit wears thin, don't you think? Brass tacks to you...if you just can't live with your marriage, stop whining and leave. That is your choice and in today's climate, most people will support you just fine. On the other hand, you made a promise to your W that you are not living up to. You came here having already decided that your W wasn't good enough and you are wrong. Your W is exactly the same person that she is supposed to be. Just because what you think you want is not what she is doesn't negate the promise that you made. Get a freaking hobby or another over-educated geek to have these long, analytical conversations with. Your W is your W.

You want to know what to do? Start by losing the attitude and just being nice. Stop keeping score. Start there and give it time. Definitely see a counselor assuming you can find one that is your mental equal.

As for W, you need to make the same kind of decision. If your H is that bad, shut up and leave. You made the same promise, though. You have worn your Christianity on your sleeve here, but I have to ask, where can you see your Christiantiy in any of your posts about your H? You are being just as nasty and vindictive as you accuse your H of being. What it looks like to me is that you are looking for someone to tell you how wronged you are. Forgive your H his faults, start being nice and get over it. You can't keep score with your beliefs.

You are married and have children. Maybe you can't have whatever distorted dream of 'real life' that you think is out there. At the same time, if you can both let go of the past and begin acting like husband and wife, just maybe you will find out that your spouse is not only a great spouse, but better than you could have conceived.

Sometimes life just isn't about what you want...sometimes it is better than that.

Wow! You're right. I'm sorry for using all of you guys like that. I've just been holding it all in for years and have noone else to talk to. I'm sorry and it won't happen again. I'm just at such a loss as to how to handle my own feelings about all this. I didn't mean to be a hypocrite and I appologize for that. Believe me I've been talking to God about that too.

bp22, i can't just settle for something that just isn't right. It's maddening. i can't do it in any part of my life not even my marriage "duh". if you've read any of my posts you know what i mean.

good luck,
hol

<small>[ July 29, 2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: hol ]</small>

MP,

I want you to know that I am totally blown away by your response. I expected some distinct measure of anger or defensiveness.

Look, there really is nothing that you can do about your H. You can't become a person you aren't and it sounds to me like even if you are lucky enough to jump through the first hoop, there will be another on the other side. What can you do about that?

At the same time, you can be nice. You guys clearly have been in the midst of a real power struggle for awhile and it has probably blinded you to the idea that there is hope. All you really can do is give up the idea of winning. If your H wants to walk, he can walk. In the meantime, you can be the most decent person you can be. I sense in you a dread and fear of losing your H, but honestly, some of the ways that you respond to that are counter-productive.

I wouldn't say that I have a "fear" of losing my husband, I just don't want to lose him. I love him despite how I sound. I married him for life and that's what would be my ideal(if things change and he decides to stay). Also, although I sound really rotten talking to everyone here, in real life I try to act the right way. I just got carried away here because people were actually listening to me and I took advantage of that to voice my pent up anger(that was wrong of me). I try to show Bruce unconditional love which is difficult and I fail miserably many times. Bruce will attest to that I'm sure. Even though at times I want to make him hurt like he's hurt me, I don't do that on purpose. I try to remember the golden rule the best I can. No, I don't think that I am "good" for these things, I am just trying to live the way that I know I should. Thanks for replying and trying to help my husband and me. Mary.

Sorry I took so long to reply BP--been on vacation (yay)...

As for your question regarding my H, I think he really does think about our marriage. But one thing I have to realize is that he doesn't think about anything the way I do. Where I analyze and try to understand down to the smallest detail, he tries to please without really understanding why.

He told me last night that he has been trying to make amends to everyone by trying to please everyone. Turns out, he has been thinking, just not in the most constructive way.

I've found I have to be very literal with my H--here is exactly what I need and when I need it and here's how it will work.

AND, I've found that I have to STOP underestimating him. I do that all the time, and he really gets hurt. He always turns out to have good intentions at heart, but he just doesn't know how to put those intentions into action. Because of his likes and hobbies, I tend to forget that he IS an intelligent man, just different from me. That's entirely my fault, and I feel bad whenever I realize I've been doing it.

A big vocabulary and scientific knowledge doesn't necessarily correlate with emotional intelligence, I've found.

Hope things are going better for you two!
EJ

I'm currently reading the book "5 Love Needs Of Men & Women" by Gary & Barb Rosberg. Anyway, one of the things in there says that YOUR MATE IS SUPPOSED TO BE NOT YOUR BEST FRIEND, BUT YOUR BEST BEST FRIEND. Think back for a moment - what did you two do when you began dating? Places you went? Things you did together. Think again, what kinds of things do you do with your best friends now? Husbands should get involved 'in their wife's world' - learn what are her dreams - help her in working towards those dreams. Wives should take an interest in some of the things their husbands do - talk to him about them. Try doing a few of them. Just sitting down to talk and giving your Mate your UNDIVIDED ATTENTION is a huge start! Continuing those talks weekly at least 3 times a week is even better!
Reading Christian Marriage books is certainly helpful also.
All this IMHO - at least this works for my wife and me, we are happy and plan to stay that way!!
Harold