Hello,

I've been visiting here for a couple of days and have decided to join hoping that I can get some help with what's going on in my life and possibly help others based on my own experiences with separation, divorce, custody, child support etc...

My ex-husband picked our 15 yr. old daughter up from school during her lunch period on 9/01/04 and I have not seen or heard from her since. She is angry at me for taking away a couple of her privileges.

He filed a motion for change of custody on 10/20/04. My attorney has filed contempt of court charges for custody interference and back child support. We have a court date on 12/20/04.

My daughter refuses to have contact with myself, her 2 older brothers, my parents or anyone who is connected with us.

Pre-trial hearing was 12/08/04 and the judge ordered counseling for her and me. He was willing to have her brought home immediately, but I feared that she would run away or worse...

I have been a complete emotional wreck during the past 3 1/2 months. I hear that she is out running around, hanging out with kids I don't approve of. Her grades are in the toilet and her father is juggling her between his residence and his new girlfriend's place which is 60 miles from my daughter's school. They have already tried several times to enroll her in school in the town the GF lives in.

Any words of encouragement or advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks

P.S. Is there a list of the abbreviations and their meanings that you use here?

MrsEd,

First off, here is a link to a thread with the abreviations and such. It's posted under the EN forum

Start here

Welcome to MB. There isn't much I can offer as advice in your situation but I can't imagine that your X's recent actions can be very good for him in a custody dispute. Either way, your daughter is the one that counts. She'll getover the loss of privledges, but she'll never forget the care and concern that you show you have for her.

I've never been a 15 year old girl, but my STBX was when we met. Big Time rebelion years!

Stay strong and do what is best to keep her faith and trust in you.

WIWH

Hello mrsed,

We need to know some more backgound on the who, what, where, and if's on this.

In other words, we need to hear the whole story in order to give you any words of advice on what you have going here, and what you may or may not be able to do or not do.

We await your response.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

My ex-husband abandoned my daughter and I on 8/17/01, less than two weeks after our 23rd anniversary and 11 days before my daughters 12th birthday. He left a note on the kitchen table while I was at work. He liquidated all of our assets. We were buying our home and property from his mother...he turned it back over to her.

The divorce proceedings and property settlement took almost two years. His first attorney dropped him like a hot potato when he found out he had lied to him about various things...ie age of daughter, property information etc... His contact with her has been sporadic...about once a month, and she calls him. She has stayed with him a total of 5 or 6 times in three years.

Our boys are 25 and 23 yrs old and have virtually no contact with their father because of his perpetual lies. The 25 yr old was married in June of this year and my ex started a fight with both boys at the wedding! He also tried to hit my daughter, but was stopped by one of the groomsmen.
Daughter had had NO contact with him at all since the wedding until he took her.

She and I had an argument about her chores and her homework. She was being rude and disrespectful so I took her cell phone and driver's permit away from her. Next day she didn't come home after school. I called the Sheriff's Dept. and they contacted her father. She was with him.

He had been seeing a new girlfriend for about 2 weeks and she tried to enroll my daughter in school the next day in the town where she lives.

My ex-husband was the perfect husband and father for 23 years, then all of a sudden he just skips out on us and in the process has alienated his own family (except his mother), my family, his children and all of his friends. Now he has our daughter doing the same thing. She has told people she is never coming home and will never speak to me again.

She has suffered immensely during the past three years, she wants so badly to have a relationship with her dad but he makes it impossible for the kids to have a relatioship with both of us. It's either him or me.

I hope the court-appointed counseling will help.

I'm so sorry about your situation. I will keep you and your family in my prayers. Stay strong!!!

mrsed,

Thank you for the background info.

Question... what type of custody arrangement do you have with your former?

I'm not an attorney, but based on the custody issue... you may have cause, and possibly an avenue to pursue.

At the moment though... it may be best to let your daughter experience the wonderfulness that your former and his G/F have to offer. I'm sure it will wear on all of them in a very short period of time.

Having older children as well... I find it best, that once you lay the law down, such as what you have done (and I have and would of done the same thing as you did). They have a way of seeking the easy path of least resistance. It won't last... not with a G/F in the picture. Kids and G/F's living in the same house is usually not a good mix.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

To TreeReich: Thanks for your prayers. I appreciate your kindness.

Wallace,

We have joint custody, with me being the custodial parent.

His visitation is every other weekend and every other holiday and has never been exercised.

I think (and hope and pray) that you are right about this wearing on them. My daughter is a handful and her father always spoiled her rotten up until he skipped out.

My concern is that even if she's over being mad at me and wants to come home she is so strong-willed she will suffer through it rather than admit she wants to come back.

I don't believe for a moment that he really wants custody of her. He is doing this to spite me and in some twisted way to ease his guilt over not being there for her over the past 3 years.

My oldest son called this afternoon and said he'd heard that his dad and the G/F are getting married next Wednesday. I hate to even think this out loud but I hope the judge slaps his a** in jail Monday and their honeymoon consists of a conjugal visit.

The G/F has a 19 year old son who lives in a trailer in her driveway with his 16 yr old girlfriend. She also has a daughter who is 16 and a 10 yr old son who has problems at school, everything he says or does is sexually oriented. (my sister is his teacher) She also taught the older son and had the same problems with him.

I am so very concerned about the environment and the lack of supervision, the running wild and her grades. She has always been an A student and now she is failing 2 classes and barely pulling C's in the rest.

My mom saw her a couple weeks ago and said she looked like hell. Her hair was slicked back in a ponytail, no makeup and she was wearing a huge old sweatshirt. She is normally a very girly-girl, it's all about the hair, the nails, the makeup and the clothes.

My attorney keeps telling me that the judge will give what she wants a lot of consideration and right now I don't think she has a clue what she wants. She tells her friends and her teachers that she's much happier with her dad but her grades and appearance defy that.

I want her happy and healthy and I'm willing to do whatever it takes for her to be that way.

Hi mrsed,

I've tried posting a resonse to you about four times, but my computer is crashing... I'm still working on it as I post.

Your attorney is correct though... and if I can get back on-line with this computer... I'll give you the rest of my take on all this.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

Our court date is tomorrow and I'm very nervous about it.

I can't imagine a judge giving my X custody, but nothing has gone as I would have imagined over the past three years.

I don't know if the judge will address the change of motion for custody or if he will just address the contempt charges and wait for a custody decision after there has been some counseling.

Has anyone had a a similar experience?

Merry Christmas MRSED! My warmest hugs to you during this difficult time. I am sorry for all your pain, and hurt. I understand. It hurts very much!

I am passing along sharing comfort e-cards and want u to know that GOD loves you soooooo very much!
So turn up the speakers and let His love, comfort touch for a moment. He knows-understands. He is with you, beside you!

http://www.angelhugs.net/ifeared.html

Christ Love
My love
sky

UPDATE:
Ex was given temporary custody until next court date which is January 11th.

He, the GF and my daughter were ordered by the court to make sure she spent time with me during the holidays and to attend the court-ordered counseling. In essence, the judge was telling them to prove that she is better off with them and to start acting like responsible adults instead of screaming hillbilly banshees.

He also said he will rule on the 11th based on the counseling and the efforts that are made to come up with a solution that is satisfactory for everyone.

I am in shock about the way my daughter looked. I'm certain that I wouldn't recognize her if I saw her from a distance. This is also the first time I have seen the G/F. Let's just say, that I'll need to attend a hog slaughter to get that picture out of my mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

After court my attorney asked me what days I would like to have her during the next two weeks. I requested Wednesday through Friday of this week and next.

When I got home Monday afternoon I was completely drained and emotionally exhausted.

I called my attorney to see if I was actually going to get to have visitation with her. He said yes, it's been ordered and told me to call them and attempt to make the necessary arrangements.

The phone call went very badly...I was calm and remained that way (much to my surprise, although I was on my 4th xanax of the day) while each of them took a turn screaming obscenities at me. I came close to "losing it" with the G/F when she started calling me a lying wh*re and made the remark that DD had been hers for the past 3 months.

XH said DD has been crying and trembling all day because she is so terrified of me and seeing me in person brought back all the horrible memories of me beating her and screaming at her for 15 years. He also told me it would probably take them all night to get her calmed down. I could hear her in the background calling me every name in the book. I found out later that she attended a basketball game that evening and was running wild and having a great time.

Anyway, I was supposed to have her today when school got out at 1:30 and of course I don't. My son called me around noon very upset. He had received a phone call from his father a few minutes earlier inviting DS to his wedding this evening. WTF?

None of this is going well, to say the least.

You may want to do some research on parental alienation.

Here's a starter link.

Parental Alienation

There have been serious enough hostilities in some situations, that one of the two parents ends up dead at the hands of a child, manipulated that way by an angry person who has no thought for the welfare of the child - just revenge against their spouse/ex.

Be careful with your daughter. You have no idea how far they may have pushed her already.

Kayla...Thank you for the link.

I have done some extensive reading the past few days and I think this could very well be what is going on.

I spoke to my attorney about it and he doesn't think the judge can do anything more than order counseling, which he already did on 12/8. The counselor still hasn't contacted me to set up appointments.

Christmas was very difficult without her. She did call me Christmas morning from her dad's cell phone. I kind of freaked out when I saw his name and number on my caller ID. The conversation was very short, after she said hello I asked how she was and she said "Fine" and then asked me what I'd been doing. I told her I'd been cleaning, shopping, wrapping gifts... I asked her if she had a good Christmas and she said yes and then she said "I have to go" I told her I loved her and she hung up.

I spent a good 30 minutes in the bedroom and bathroom trying to stop crying so I could rejoin the rest of the family.

I emailed her that night and told her what we'd done as a family all week and Christmas Day. I also let her know we missed her terribly and how hard it is to have her unopened gifts still under the tree.

On another note:
I ran into a guy today that lives in the same town as my X and his new wife. He commented that he'd heard my X had remarried a few days ago. He doesn't know my X but he does know the new wife. I played dumb and let him fill me in on her and her family. He said she goes through men like most people go through underwear and that they are a strange family he also made a comment about rumors of incest going around town for years.

I am having a very hard time keeping all of this in perspective and I am worried sick about my child!

The past 3 1/2 years have been hell but they don't even hold a candle to the pain of the last 3 1/2 months.

Oh Mrsed...how I would like to give you a huge hug! Been there my dear.

My then 15-year-old also defied our house *rules* after Daddy Dearest left. It came to a point of physical abuse where she pummeled me until I was black and blue. I stood there with my hands at my sides and told her, "I know you are angry and hate me, if you want to kill me, you might as well do it now." She turned on her heels and left vowing NEVER to communicate with me again.

Daddy Dearest told me to pack up her stuff and have it out front. He came and picked her up after promises that they would "live" together. He promptly dropped her off with her grandparents to live. So my friend, it wasn't that easy on her. She stayed there for a YEAR because she was too stupid and stubborn to realize it would have been easier if she would have faced her teenage defiancy and talk to me.

It all started out over her telling me to "Fu** Off" and me telling her to never say that to me again. As she followed me around the house yelling, "you are a Fu***** b****," and when I told her I would slap her mouth if she swore at me, she defiantly stood there and said, "Yeah I Fu***** dare you to." S L A P! The ONLY thing I regret is not slapping her harder! (which I even tell her now).

So.....yes she lives with Daddy Dearest. NO curfew, NO rules, gives her a car, money, NO supervision. I too fought to have court ordered counselling. It never happened. I PRAYED...and PRAYED and PRAYED. I also realized that the ONLY thing I could do about all this is BE the best possible parent I could be. I continued to communicate, whether she wanted to talk to me or NOT. She didn't speak to me for about 2 years. Our communication consisted of leaving messages.

As for the courts....they can't ORDER your child to do better in school. Much less if your daughter was there you can't make her do better in school. Unfortunately they let the kids down by not placing importance on school, but unless there is PROOF that you can present in court where it is hazardous for your child to live there, there is nothing that you can do. My ex was abusive and still is to this day. My daughter took it all because it was the ONLY thing she knew. It was NORMAL for dad to call her names etc....but as long as he was giving her cash, a car and no rules, it was a win-win situation compared to living with me --> no cars, you keep your marks up, curfews, behave respectfully, no cash unless you earned it. Sure it was easy for her to walk away. The ex of course salivated at the chance of *winning* you see because he believed it was me being a failure as a parent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Now....flash forward....... She is a grown woman on her own, out of her dad's house and on her own. She has made some mistakes along the way that even if I WAS there through it all, she would have had to face the consequences on her own. I was there to support her through the painful times, and believe me she did come to me. It does work out in the end and they do realize who really is the parent here. Christmas Day this year I was with her at her place. Our family celebrated two weeks earlier. She called Daddy Dearest to wish Merry Christmas to all....he spent a total of 16 seconds talking to her and said he was "busy" and couldn't talk. She got off the phone and cried and cried. (not the first time and certainly not the last).She again turned to me and said she loved me so very much for caring enough about her. The ex's will NEVER get it and will NEVER be the parents they need to be. The children DO come back -- although it is sheer hell on us. I can not count the times my daughter has apologized over her action. She was a teen and I was not going to let her abuse me and set decent and healthy boundaries. I still do. The hardest part of being a parent is not letting your kids step all over you. It doesn't mean being a bi***, it means setting appropriate boundaries for each age and negotiating with these children to find something that works for you both. When you are parenting with someone else that gives them everything they want, they will leave. I just refused to give in. I couldn't give in. I couldn't afford the cash, cars or releasing every rule in my house to suit her teenage needs at the time. She choose to leave. The courts couldn't have kept her here if they tried. She would have ran, she would continue to swear at me and hit me when she didn't get her own way. At all costs, her younger siblings and myself deserved better. It was painful and I cried so many nights into my pillow. It was the most difficult time of my life....but the rewards now far outweigh those tears. I wish it could have been different back then -- but you know, who knows if I would have what I have now.

I'm sorry that you are in pain (and I'm sorry my post is so long). I KNOW how it feels and I wish you the strength to face each day and work on yourself and get stronger. It takes enormous courage to face it wtihout breaking down and you CAN do it. If you ever need to talk, email me and I would be more than happy to help you along the way. If it wasn't for Amoknow -- I would have cracked long ago (thanks girlfriend!).

Take care and keep us posted!

In response to the parental alienation:

Been there done that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> There are few solicitors/judges in the US or Canada that are familiar with it. There are few court cases that will judge on the grounds of Parental Alientation and those that do will also look at the parent that is being alienated. The books that I read backwards, forwards and sideways til my eyes almost bled are:

Divorce Casualties: Protecting Your Children from Parental Alienation by Douglas Darnall (he speaks mostly of females alienating the children from fathers...so be prepared some of it hurts to read -- BUT it also makes you aware that subconsciously YOU can be alienating your children also)His book helped me stay in touch with the kids. Realize that I would call and the ex would tell her I don't care and never called (he erased my messages). I started a diary of the times I called and when I left messages that I showed my daughter when she did come back. Gave her a whole different perspective on Daddy Dearest.

The website that helped the most for me: http://rgardner.com/refs/

You can also find some case law on the internet...it's very indepth and will rattle your brains (LOTS of reading) but at least something you can present your lawyer if they are not familiar with PAS.

hee hee....how can you tell this just riles me up????

The books: (continued)

Divorce Poison -- Dr. Richard A. Warshak
This one really gave some good advice on what to do, say and react when certain hurtful situations came up.

Why does he do that; inside the minds of angry and controlling men by Lundy Bancroft
This one I cried mostly throughout -- it gave me answers to why my ex was the way he was.

Controlling People by Patricia Evans
I need to do another read through this one. I found it hard to get into. There are many others though that have raved about this book and was very helpful.

How to deal with your Acting-Up Teenager by Robert and Jean Bayard.
This one is out of print so you may have to go searching for it. Very good down to earth advice with dealing with teenagers and really sifting out what is important to fight for and what is not important. Do you put the brakes on a kid smoking or a kid who is walking out of the house at night? Interesting and also gave some good advice.

Apparently my X's attorney finally got him to understand a little bit of the significance of a court order.

My daughter called earlier and asked me if I could meet her for lunch tomorrow. It's not the 6 days of visitation I asked for in court, but it's better than nothing. I know she is being "forced" to do it but I am just so thrilled that I get to see her!

My dilemma right now is...my mother thinks I should take her Christmas gifts and give them to her. I think she should open her gifts at home with me when/if things are less volatile between her and I and her dad and I.

Any opinions?

{{{{{{{{{mrsed}}}}}}}}}}... I'm so sorry for the pain you're going through...

As for the presents. I don't think there are any "shoulds" about where/when they should be openned. Maybe you could bring them, but offer her the choice as to where/when she wants to open them. If it's right here, right now, then at least it's done. If she'd like to come home and be with you and other family members, then you can arrange this together. Basically, I'd just try to enjoy the visit in a sort of "Plan A" way. Since she's not living with you right now, I'd avoid judgements and criticism and keep things as light and positive as possible. From the way you've described her, it sounds like anything else will just push her away at this point. My guess is that unless she chooses on her own to return home, accepting your rules, any attempts at limit setting, other than setting personal boundaries for yourself ( unless, of course, you hear anything that sounds like she's in any kind of danger that would require legal action) will probably just push her farther away.

I'm no expert, just speaking as a former rebellious 15 year old who treated my mother much as your daughter treats you. I have to agree with Elan that time and maturity will change her attitude.

I remember the "first" meetings with my daughter....what drove her away the FASTEST was trying to discuss what happened to get both of us where you are.

BEST --> take the presents with you. Give them to her (NO STRINGS ATTACHED OR COMMENTS -- like "I really would have liked you to open them at home") Just GIVE them to her right from the heart.

TALK to her. Find out how she's doing. Tell her what you have been doing -- at all costs avoid any conversation about rules in your house or anything like that UNLESS she brings it up. I can guarantee she already has a "scene" played out in her head where you get to meet her and she is "forced" to listen to your lecture and of course "Mom just blabbed on and on about HOW bad I am".

You can do it! You've been doing great already!

Elan and LetStry...Thank you so much for your excellent advice!

Lunch actually went really well. My daughter brought her new step-sister with her and the SS shook my hand and introduced herself. They have matching tongue rings and got a Jeep for Christmas. (They've both had their driver's licenses less than 3 months)

She asked if I'd email her some pictures that are on my computer and informed me that they have 23 dogs. Also, her new cell phone is in for repairs, as she dropped it in the toilet. She was sick a couple weeks ago and let me know that her prescription cost her dad $300.

The new step-mother called 30 minutes in and told her daughter to come pick her up. I told my daughter that I had her Christmas gifts in the car and suggested she stay and open them while the other girl went to get her mother and she agreed.

We sat in my car and she seemed to like her gifts. She commented favorably on each outfit and said she loved a couple of the tops. She was very excited about the perfume, said it was her favorite (Like I didn't know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

She also took everything out of her stocking and put the stocking in the backseat... So I can fill it again next year???

When she got out of the car she thanked me and I told her it was good to see her and that I loved her.

I would have liked to spend more than 45 minutes with her but at this point I'll take whatever I can get.

<small>[ December 31, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: mrsed ]</small>