I don't want to threadjack from the original topic (which was, "do you really want your ex back?") - so I'm asking a slightly different question here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sky diver:
<strong>
Of course we are all much more content, saner and getting better without our x . All that pain is movin in the past.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. So do all my single friends. So even do several of my married friends. I thought the question was whether or not I wanted my ex back (like the question in the original thread) but am now thinking the question is, "is it worth being married to ANYONE?" And I'm asking myself - and the rest of you too - how many of you think marriage is better than being single?

I suppose this is a sacrilege to ask such a question on a MB list. You know, I would NEVER have left my M and would have continued to work on it - so it's not that I was dying to get out of it. But sometimes things happen that aren't what we want, and we end up having an epiphany as a result.

I still believe that if one is going to be married, the MB concepts are the only way to go. I'm just not sure marriage is the best way to live life. Maybe I've been reading too many sad stories lately, but it seems like an incredible amount of unhappy energy is being spent on marriages by an incredible number of people. Where is the payback folks? Why is marriage SO difficult? I want to know if it is worth the price we have all paid, and continue to pay. (I really want to believe in marriage - that's why I'm asking!)

Deja Vu


WHat is a marriage? something we try out as a starter home? If we don't like the first one, we trade in,,,?

Really though, what is 'your' definition of what a marriage means?

stever

<small>[ December 24, 2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stephan:
<strong> Deja Vu

WHat is a marriage? something we try out as a starter home? If we don't like the first one, we trade in,,,? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not in my book, but apparently that's how my H sees it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really though, what is 'your' definition of what a marriage means? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No clue anymore. I thought it meant sharing your life with someone else - the good, the bad and the ugly - feeling comfortable with each other, enjoying each other's company, values, and interests, being best friends, soul mates, and finally intimate lovers. But, as I look back I'm not sure any of that is reality. Instead I'm thinking it is more work, more pain, and more effort than benefit. Since there were no kids for me, and never can be, I truly wonder - since it would not be for the kids. Can there be more comfort than pain, more joy than sorrow, less tension and more relaxation,... why get married is my question? What makes it a better life than being single? I hate to think it's just a score sheet, but I guess that's what it's become for me.

Deja Vu

"No clue anymore. I thought it meant sharing your life with someone else - the good, the bad and the ugly -"

yeah,, that was my way of looking at M as well.

Apparently my W wanted/needed that better, taller, handsome, bigger, longer, richer,, or whatever man-opposed to me.

I want to say i was glad hearing knowing that there were no children, although after reading that you couldn't have children, i wasn't so sure what or how to actually share my responding thoughts,,,?

Relationships are hard work, some more than others,,,

soul mates? not sure if that actually is a possibility or reality. Do you honestly think there is such a thing?

anyhow- one day my miss deja vu friend,, one day,,

Merry Christmas to ya

stephan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stephan:
<strong>
I want to say i was glad hearing knowing that there were no children, although after reading that you couldn't have children, i wasn't so sure what or how to actually share my responding thoughts,,,?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had my tubes tied years ago when I found out an injury from a car accident could deteriorate so much from a pregnancy, that I could end up in a wheel chair. I had decided I probably didn't want kids anyway at that point, and was not involved with anyone then either. No regrets though - I do not think I would have been a good mother and there is nothing that makes me crazier than people who have kids and aren't willing to do right by them.

Deja Vu

hi again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think I would have been a good mother </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">all i can say- at least you're being honest.
I wonder though,(out of curiousity) realizing i know nothing about you, why or how you would come to that conclusion?


and there is nothing that makes me crazier than people who have kids and aren't willing to do right by them.

i agree! I have a neice who has 2 children, her along with the boys dad, both treat those children as they were nothing but pawns, and a problem.


you say "No regrets though."
Thats good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hoping your day was wonderful!
stephan

I thought it meant sharing your life with someone else - the good, the bad and the ugly - feeling comfortable with each other, enjoying each other's company, values, and interests, being best friends, soul mates, and finally intimate lovers.

That's sort of my definition of marriage, too. In my mind it was suppsed to be two people who hung with each other through good times and bad, and who didn't have to worry about about being abandoned during the bad but could have, if nothing else, the confidence that their partner would be there for them. Of course it was also supposed to be two people who WANTED to be together, who had good times, who looked forward to doing things they enjoyed together as they got older, and who desired each other intimately.

So...that's all good "poof" for me now. Do I want to be married again? Well, while being alone is more calm, I don't desire to spend the rest of my life this way. I desire a partner to share my life with. I also have made a commitment to myself to not be intimate outside a marriage, so that's another obvious reason I'd like to be with someone I love again someday.

BUT...I'm afraid that I don't have what will make someone happy and I'll be abandoned again. While I believe in the 'for better; for worse' thing, it seems like the world as a whole doesn't. Once something starts to go bad, they're ready to trade it in.

And I don't have that much to offer--I'm not a bad cook but I really don't cook much anymore, I'm disorganized (probably where DD gets her ADHD), I'm not filled with boundless energy, and well...my hands and feet are cold 9 months out of the year...doesn't bode well for intimacy.

So, as silly as it may sound, I wonder if it would be better for me to stay single just so that I don't have to feel the pain and disappointment ever again.

LL

Is it better to be single? We wouldn't be here if that's what we want. It's just part of life. I've been knocked down, but I will stand up, walk, and one day when I'm ready I will run again, metaphorically speaking.

I think it's worth it to take a chance again one day when I'm ready. Who know - anything can happen in this crazy world. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Merry Xmas!

Hi everyone, just wanted to add something. The problem today is that people are not willing to try to work on their marriage. They find excuses such as not having anything in common a good reason to give up. What are we teaching younger generations by all of this. You don't get along with your H/W it's ok. Move on find somebody else, and eventually they will be in the same boat. If you are not familiar with Divorce Care you should look into it. What I learned there is that your life does not revolve around your job, your kids, or your spouse. Your life should revolve around the Lord. A spouse and children are just another blessing in your life from the Lord. Now the problem is to get our WS's to see things this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem today is that people are not willing to try to work on their marriage. They find excuses such as not having anything in common a good reason to give up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeppers, they bel;ieve in the grass in greener theory.

Too many people believe that there is a soul-mate out there,,somewhere.

What are we teaching younger generations by all of this.

you've got it, that if H/W do become frustrated, or what-ever may apply, it's simply ok to trade them in for a new one, and start all over again.

God does tell us that many will be fooled right? So, i'm wondering how many will be fooled, especially those who continue saying/thinking that God must have somebody better in mind for me?
so i'm still "STANDING IN THE GAP"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now the problem is to get our WS's to see things this way</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After reading this, i'm wondering, you're not on one of those alien ships,, are you? j/k lol

make it a glorious day,
stephan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
-------------------------------------------------
Now the problem is to get our WS's to see things this way
-------------------------------------------------

After reading this, i'm wondering, you're not on one of those alien ships,, are you? j/k lol
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wishfull Thinking

I believe that our society treats many things as disposable/replaceable from spouses to children, pets, material objects, etc.

If it's broken/doesn't work - just go get a new one...

The old timers threw nothing away - they worked on trying to fix everything - they kept things forever - times/people have changed - unfortunately...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stephan:
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think I would have been a good mother </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">all i can say- at least you're being honest.
I wonder though,(out of curiousity) realizing i know nothing about you, why or how you would come to that conclusion? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I have always had lots of my own goals and ambitions and did not want to have to give them up. When I first contemplated having kids it was a time that women did all the domestic work and all the child care. That was NOT the life I wanted for myself.

Now, fathers are more involved than they used to be - BUT kids have so many more needs and there are so many more time demands on parent's time as well. The people I know who are really engaged in their kid's lives do not have very much time to invest in their own lives outside of their families. Certainly not having FT jobs, attending grad school, showing dogs, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ITHURTS:
<strong> I believe that our society treats many things as disposable/replaceable from spouses to children, pets, material objects, etc.

If it's broken/doesn't work - just go get a new one...

The old timers threw nothing away - they worked on trying to fix everything - they kept things forever - times/people have changed - unfortunately... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ITHURTS,

You've hit the nail on the head. I guess the reason for my original question is that I'm feeling like my definition of marriage is incompatible with the world I live in. I don't see that the commitment is there much anymore, and sure don't want to go down the same path again.

Lordslady, I'm with you there too - I also am afraid of being abandoned again, and having NO clue how to anticipate who is in it for the long haul and who is not. I'm asking the question about single vs. marriage for the same reason you are: don't want to be hurt again. You invest SO much time and energy in a relationship, only to get worse than nothing out of it - no thanks. Sure, I'm here because I want to believe in M - and am grasping at straws to hang onto that elusive dream. But, the cynic in me is VERY afraid of taking another chance.

I don't quite agree with ItHurts. Old Timers may not have thrown stuff away, but that doesn't mean they had half way decent marriages.

Many, many people were stuck in bad, even violent, marriages because there were extreme financial and social drawbacks to divorce. Look at the plight of domestic violence among the Amish if you want a modern day parallel.

I never wanted to get divorced until I couldn't stand it. You can see by my registration date, I didn't throw my marriage away. But I can tell you, I'd never be comfortable with my husband in the way Deja Vu described. We value different things. We live differently. Not to mention a whole slew of concrete issues.

I decided years before I even found this site that marriage wasn't worth it except for the children. Now, while I love men and the "in love" feeling and miss having someone special to share the Christmas tree with, I won't get married again, even if I manage to get divorced. First, being a full-time mom, and a provider, I don't have time for romance. Second, I'm too cautious. I wouldn't risk it. The odds seem stacked against a happy marriage.

JMHO

Hi All. I had to throw my 2 cents into the mix here.
I divorced from a lousey marriage where my wife was always right and you could never show her as being anything other than 'she's perfect in every way, a legend in her own mind, and screw what anyone else had to say or thought.'
One can only live that way for so long - for me, 18 years was all I could take. Then when I became disabled, that was it! Out I went! So. Whatever about that one. It's over and done with.
I have remarried - almost 2 years after my original divorce.
There are so many good points brought up on this thread.
From my experience only, I've realized that:
- no marriage is going to always be peachy-keen.
- there will always be problems and sacrifices have to be made by one party or the other.
- you are 2 different people with sometimes different opinions and views on something.
- communication is most important.
- it's not a "OK I gave in last time, now it's your turn" kinda thing.
- love is NOT a feeling. Love is DECIDING to stay in it for the long haul and working to make the best of your lives together because you want to do things for your mate and make life better for them.
- you are Life Companions to each other. Always an available date and one to whom you are faithful to.
- it's doing things for your mate when you are feeling tired and crappy and don't want to.
- it's proving every day that you love that person by doing things for them, listening to them, making them feel important and just being there for them
- it's supporting them on something and not giving up when you both believe it's something worth fighting for
Bottom Line: Marriage is work, sacrifice and devotion to one person. It takes TWO to make that marriage work!
JMHE,
HLT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The old timers threw nothing away - they worked on trying to fix everything </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A true story: My grandmother, who was a young mother during the depression, used to sew new elastic in her underwear. She took frugality to a new level!

But back on the true topic of this thread, I do think that marriages are considered "disposable" by many people today, just as everything else is. My XH came sportin' the OW at his family reunion last September while we were still officially married, and just simply told people "We didn't work out".

Broken. Traded in, I was...

It does make one nervous about getting involved in a relationship again.

LL

I like being single.

I enjoy the privacy. I enjoy the freedom to do what I want when I want, both at home and going out. I don't really have problems with loneliness except when I go to a concert or something like that by myself.

I liked being married better.

It's a tradeoff. Given the right partner - one of the very very few people with the potential for sufficient compatibility and closeness - the benefits of singlness seem paltry compared to the benefits of marriage and family.

I do not want to get married for the sake of being married. I would want to get married only because the prospect of cultivating a relationship and partnership with some particular very special person was to me the greatest privilege and blessing I could imagine in this life.

As for the risk - pah! I've been through betrayal once already. Since God got me through it then, I know He could get me through it again if need be.

I had a very hard time adjusting to being married (the second time) and living with someone else. In fact, I don't think we ever worked out successful living logistics. Some of that I believe is because we didn't share the same needs for space and noise.

But I'm just not sure - maybe it's me. Maybe I am not suited for living with someone else. Maybe I'm too selfish - the same reason I didn't want kids. I wish I knew if that was the case - if I knew it was, I would avoid getting involved with anyone again. I'd really like to think two people could work out living arrangements with a POJA approach, but I don't think my H and I could have. He always thought I was flawed in my need for my own space and he thought I was selfish. Maybe so.

One thing I haven't seen in other replies: a part of marriage is your own personal growth. By getting married, you have just engaged the services of a full-time, live-in, mirror. There's a good chance that the very things which attracted you to your spouse in the first place will wind up driving you nuts some day - and you'll be driving them nuts.

It's because we aren't finished. We are spirits in bodies, learning to be human. We have lessons to learn. We have secret fears and outdated coping mechanisms. We aren't perfect. And we get to be not perfect in front of someone else - what better way to be forced to face life's most painful lessons?

If you are looking to just live, and have a house/money/car/whatever - if you define success and happiness by what you have, or by how people treat you - you are not living a full life. There is a deep well of joy and love inside each of us, that can only be released by us. We aren't happy because someone loves us - we are happy when we learn to release our own love. No one has the power to make us happy or unhappy - it's only when we want to control what someone else does that we become unhappy.

Life is about learning to love ourselves, because the Divine is in each of us. Life is about learning to love others, because the Divine is in each of them. Maybe some of them are a ways from understanding that, and you won't be able to have them in your life. Don't let it stop you from acknowledging their Spirit as you let them go. Don't let someone else's lack of approval stop you from loving your own Spirit. Don't be afraid to experience fear, darkness, loss - what you don't feel, you can't heal. Don't be afraid to heal, and to experience joy, love, compassion, and happiness.

Don't be afraid to marry again. Don't be afraid when your marriage starts to have problems. Don't be afraid to learn from the strife, even if your Other doesn't learn. I think an ideal relationship is one in which both partners are committed to self-growth, and to treating one another with respect and support. You can't work on the relationship - a relationship is just the space between two people. If you want to change your relationship, you have to change yourself. Sometimes your partner might have to change, and they might not want to. Sorry.

I wish I had known this earlier in my own marriage, or I might have been able to save it. My STBXH has filed, and intends to go through with it. (He thinks we might get back together someday, and that getting divorced is the first step to moving forward. Go figure.) We spent a year staying in a painful place, waiting for things to work themselves out, instead of rushing to just do something. And we almost made it. Well, at least we have both grown, and will continue to grow, and maybe next time we'll have the wisdom to nurture love and accept change and face growth.

Don't be afraid to do the same when the time comes. Don't let past pain prune your spirit. Lean into the pain, breathe through it, and never doubt that Love is what binds all creation together.