(I also posted this on general questions)

Hi,
I'll try and summarize this as quickly as I can.
I posted several weeks ago on Divorce/Divorcing..
I left my husband approx. 3 yrs. ago for another man, as practically none of my 'needs' were being met. That didn't last very long, but I still moved out with our children (5)...and have sinced learned alot about myself...and what went wrong with our marriage etc. I want desparatly to try again with my soon to be ex. He sends my mixed signals and is making it even harder. The past few weeks we have been getting along quite well...I even make up excuses to go talk to him. He jokes about things in our past...We have a 'big' court date this wednesday...and I DON'T want to go. This has been in the legal system for 3 yrs now (doesn't that tell you something?).
I tried explaining to him last week how I felt, and that I'd like to put off the date and take baby steps to see if we 'like each other'. He did not answer yes or no...but we continued with a great conversation. Well...last night I dropped the kids off by him, and we were getting along great again...and I asked him if he thought about what I said..he said 'a little'...then I asked about wednesday..and he said 'I'm pretty sure I'll be seeing you in court'....argh.....he's the most stubborn man I've ever known (but I love him to death). I don't think our marriage had a chance from day one for many reasons....and I know neither one of us had a clue how much work was actually involved in keeping a marriage together. He blames me totally for everything...and I accept my contribution to our downfall..but he just doesn't want to learn. He also was with someone for awhile, but that didn't last long either. That was after we separated. I also asked him last night if he would at least sit down and talk with me before the court date, and he said 'yes, If I actually have something to say'!!
I really feel as though we belong together...I know I broke this mans heart....and it kills me knowing that we didn't even try to work things out after my 'affair'.....we at least deserve a chance as well as our children....I hope you can understand this post somewhat...I just re-read it and its a bit unorganized...sorry!!
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Hi Nancy,

From what I can see we have a very similar story. I too get what I think are "mixed signals". But the problem we both have I think is that whilst we may realise how wrong & stupid we have been, all our partners can feel is the betrayal, hurt and destruction of trust.

I think the love inside is still there but all the other emotions hide it from our partners. We can see the hopeful signs - but they can't. We need to remember what they have had to cope with in being alone for years. That's a huge barrier to break down, and quite bluntly telling them we were wrong etc just does nothing at all. I'm struggling right now with how to overcome that, and I'm now at plan B stage.

Nancy, will your H agree to MB counseling in place of a Wed court date? Negotiate with him a limited period of counseling in lieu of the court date. Defer the date till the counseling is completed. Make it a reasonable period of maybe 2 months or so....See what happens.....

PRAY like never before!!!

I admire you tremendously for being one to come on back & admit your mistakes and be willing to try again! You are a good person deep inside if you have this sort of decisions going forward.

High Flight

<small>[ January 01, 2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: High Flight ]</small>

Well I spoke with my husband yesterday. I began by taking full responsibility for my choice of having an A, and how I regret each day how much I hurt him & our family. I told him that i wish so much that I could go back and fix this mistake, but unfortunatly I cannot. I could barely talk as the tears in my eyes were overwhelming....I asked him if he would consider postponing our wednesday court date for 2 months to work on us...and see if we could possibly begin a reconciliation. He told me that he had forgiven me for what I had done, and he also apologized for making the A such an easy choice for me. He also said he realized I tried talking to him many times before it actually happened, but he didn't "hear" me. He then said that he would like to put an 'end' to this...then start working at friendship, and see if we could start new. Said it wouldn't matter if we went to court this week or not. Hmmmmm....not really what I wanted to hear....I just don't want to divorce him. I wanted to beg him...but I did not do that. I told him he certainly had every right to continue with this divorce...but I also said that I truely believe we could have a terrific marriage as we both have grown so much. I told him that I wanted to be his wife again... Then he told me that he doesn't want a wife...he said he has always been so independent that he probably should have never gotten married to anyone....well....he did marry me...and we DO have 5 children....I think they also deserve the chance to have an intact family. I don't know...I barely slept at all last night. Oh...we actually wound up talking and having a great time laughing etc...for over 4 hours!!! I kept catching him staring at me...then I would just look deep into his eyes and see the feelings he still has for me....oh I could just scream!!!!
This may also sound selfish and off point here...but realistically speaking...we own a large farm, we physically built our home together...I don't want him to 'buy me out'...I still want this to be our place. Please...any helpful words would be great at this time as I am so frustrated this morning.

Nancy,

Did you ever read the posts by hopeful_person? I hope that you would. I frankly see a lot of hope for you and your H. You are talking, you two are starting to connnect, I do think there is a future.

Just a thought for you to consider. Look at your H's words carefully. One thing you mentioned he said was </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then he told me that he doesn't want a wife...he said he has always been so independent that he probably should have never gotten married to anyone....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am guessing here obviously, but he is not the first to utter those words around here. Often they come from a sense of failure. He tried and he failed as an H is how he is seeing this. You may not realize this but the betrayed spouse often takes on the responsibility of the marriages failure, even if they have none for the affair. Further, you two have been separated for 3 years. He does NOT know you and I suspect some of his comments may be coming from fear. Finally, he has been forced to live without you and thus he has reestablished his independence and has become "comfortable" living by himself.

I am not mentioning this to discourage you. I mention this because these are the areas you need to address. Let me ask you a question and I am not trying to be harsh. What improves in his life, if he stops the divorce and you two get back together? He is probably paying for many of the expenses now. He is seeing the children I would guess. He is able to set his own schedule now. He knows what his life is like, and what it was like when you left.

My point here is that in your mind you need to understand where changing the course of things is a win for him. You might say well his sex life might improve. You might say he doesn't have to fix his own meals. You might say he will have a friend in his life. You might say... But, something else needs to be there because all of the above can be obtained elsewhere.

One obvious thing is that he will have more contact and influence on the children, and while I am biased being a guy, I think men often have their largest enfluence during the teenage years. Another thing is that he would be with someone that loves him which is huge, but problematic with him given previous choices.

You also said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well....he did marry me...and we DO have 5 children....I think they also deserve the chance to have an intact family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am afriad that this comment will come across as a huge disrespectful judegment because for 3 years you did not use that arguement to end the A and get back together with him. It is only now, that it is a concern. I am not saying this is true, but I am saying he likely sees it that way.

Finally, you both need to consider what HAS changed in how you approach things, need things, and deal with life. If there has not been a convergence neither of you will be well served.

I would like to close with one last thing and it goes to his issues of self-esteem and self-worth respect to your marriage. He may feel that you are only finally now wanting to work on this because you fear losing some of his financial support and perhaps your home...not him.

There is a lot to overcome and it cannot be done by Wed. But, even if you two divorced IF you really do want to pursue a marriage with him and he with you, then don't panic. It can be worked out.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ January 03, 2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Hi JL...
Just so everyone knows...my A ended years ago, and I have never spoken to him since..not once!!
As for my husbands independence...I think he's been that way all his life. That was a large problem in our marriage; he would make large purchases, make decisions etc, and never mention anything to me!
I like your point as to 'what would improve for him"...giving me alot to think about from what I imagine would be his standpoint. You are right...he doesn't have to answer to anyone now, can pretty much come & go as he pleases. Meals? I would imagine he eats out most of the time, though our oldest daughter cooks for him sometimes. I do love him dearly, and isn't it funny now, that so many of things that pushed me away are now the things that I miss!! I have found quite a bit of independence in myself, something that I was lacking terribly. I don't want to 'smother' him, or change him, or try and tell him what to do...I just want to share our lives...share the ups & downs together...I want to be next to him when our children graduate..get married..have children of their own....I want to grow old with him....

Nancy,

Soooooo, you do have something to offer him. A new relationship and a changed marriage. If he is independent then that means you can be independent. That is good up to a point. Independent behavior can destroy a marriage, but there is hope because there is a tool that Harley really espouses and it is called "the policy of joint agreement", POJA. It is a negotiating tool.

So let's think a moment. You could offer him a marriage with emotional support. A level of independence (negotiate financial, time, care, whatever). Children well taken care of. And a shared life with someone that loves him.

This last one may be bigger than you realize. I was a batchelor until my 30's. I traveled the world, saw many really really amazing things, dated alot and the ONLY thing I missed in all of that was that I could not share it with someone. I did not need people around as I had many activities that I found intertaining, but the lack of sharing made things "lonely" in a profound way.

Nancy, if you are going to rebuild the marriage or even restart this marriage, you both need to understand, accept, and agree to what you each share, what each of you need from the other to complete your life, and that you are two separate people with a need to express that as well as share your life.

Perhaps, if you talk to him a little about your views on these things it will help.

I have not asked before, but how old are your children and what are their thoughts on these matters? Would they like to see you two stay married? Have the spoken up to you and your H about this? I am of the opinion that depending on their age, they should be included in any discussions that lead to reuniting the family.

Now do you see why I made the statements I did about what HE would get out of this? The other thing you need to know is what YOU would get out of it. What is it you want from the marriage? Can you express it to him? If so be ready to do so.

Just more thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Hi again JL,
our kids are 11,13,14,16 & 18. Yes..I talk openly to them (age appropriately). My youngest who does not even remember his parents living together wants it more than anything. I feel sad for him at the moment, as he doesn't understand the whole situation. The others of course would love to see us get back together...though our oldest said it would 'be weird', because he is used to the situation.
You are such a big help JL....you have given me so much to think about. In talking yesterday I did try and say to him that I didn't want to take away his independence totally! We both are involved in a 'weekend' activity...separatly (just in case you're wondering, no, the OM is not from there)....the kids join him...I'm on my own. I have no intention of giving up what I love to do, and I told him I certainly don't want him to give up his 'play tme' either. I did say though...so many times I just wanted to tell him how I did on a particular weekend. I think that suprised him...he just gave me a little smile. I will just be very patient...to me...he is worth it!

Nancy,

Does your H have a sense of humor? If so you could threaten him with the "heavy artillery", the kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Seriously, you should mention to him how the kids feel, and suggest that 2 months to see how things are going would be worth it to them IF things were to work out. I will caution you though, Harley has noted and made it part of his recovery plan that spouses should spend about 15 hours a week together. So does your H fit into your life? Do you fit into his? This is an important thing to consider. I know emotionally you want to get together, but it seems from what you have said it will be difficult given all of the hobbies.

With 5 children almost all of which are teenagers, how do you two handle sports, plays, school activities, and the hobbies of the kids? I know when mine entered teenage years my W and I sort of lost our life, as they were heavily into sports. This continued into college as well.

So think about these things and the logistics of them as well. There may actually be opportunities for you and your H encompassed within the kids activities. One must be creative sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and more than anything act with care and compassion.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

ahhhh...the school sports!! Sure has me stressed. Three kids...same sport..three different schedules...two different schools!! Somehow..I manage to get them all where they belong by myself, cause husband is usually working. He will be meeting me at games though...so that's a good thing! I did happen to mention to him yesterday that we could at least try the 2 months for the sake of the kids (especially the youngest)...but he said staying together for the kids was not a good reason to stay together. I agree to a certain extent. The fact that we have been getting along so well...and the fact the kids really really want this...but, thats from a 'moms' point of view.
Our weekend sports only involve saturday's..so we would/could have sundays together. I will be seeing him tomorrow at a game...I'm really looking forward to it...and I will just be 'the new me'!!! Confident...happy...outgoing....supportive of the kids....

Nancy,

The hardest thing to remember is that this is a "process", not a "step" so no single thing is going to change things in any dramatic way. But, little things done consistently will make a huge difference. This all takes a lot of time and patience and it can be frustrating.

Also view his mixed messages as a good thing. If he is confused you have started the process. He has had a long time to struggle with this and he has had to make accomodations to your decisions. Yet, he is sending mixed signals, that is good for you.

You are going to have to consistently send him very unconfused signals so that the process will continue.

God Bless,

JL

Well....just got back from court. Someone is on my side, as we were told to come back in March (the 2 months I wanted so badly), as certain paperwork wasn't done or whatever....My lawyer took me aside for a minute and said that my husbands attorney told him that my husband & I have been pretty 'buddy buddy' lately....so he must have said something to this lawyer!!! I think I'm excited about this....LOL. Husband sat behind me in court and kept whispering things to me...mostly joking about other things going on in the courtroom. I really felt like we just didn't belong there. Well, I at least have 2 months to see if I we can make a little progress. Just wanted to let you all know what happened this morning!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nancy1061:
<strong>I do love him dearly, and isn't it funny now, that so many of things that pushed me away are now the things that I miss!! .... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nancy1061~

I am in you shoes, I am a WW and I had the affair. And I feel the same way you do about my H. I however never left. And now that he had filed I realized all that I destroyed and am struggling to get back.

Someone has blessed you with extra time. Just Learning has great advice, listen, work hard, be strong. It looks as though you may have your wish.

My hardest thing is patience, I have none, I am on a constant roller coaster, ah but he was too.

Good Luck, I wish you the best!
SG

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Saving Grace ]</small>

Nancy,

So what is your plan now that you have another two months to address things? You do need a plan, you also need to understand something. You mentioned not "taking" away your H's independence. I thought I would comment on that choice of phrase.

I think if there is any message your H might respond to is that you feel that marriage is about giving. I know you are probably touchy about this since you say your needs were not being met, but that is the point. Read about the concepts of radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement.

I will tell you a story that might help cement this idea. I did not marry until my 30's and one of my criterion was that I wanted to meet a woman that I would rather be with than the "guys" I hung out with or the activities I truely enjoyed. It was was NOT about me choosing between them. It was that if this were to work and it has for 28 years, "I" needed to feel and realize that "she" was who I would rather be with.

I think in a sense you and your H need to come to this point as well. Harley states very strongly that sacrifice breeds resentment, especially sacrifice that has NOT been agree upon by both parties. But, I am saying is that for both of you your activities really should be secondary and not because the other person wants it that way, but because YOU want it that way. That does not mean you don't do them, but they are prioritized properly and if something the spouse needs or wants to do comes up, it should NOT be a sacrifice to choose the spouse.

If this marriage is to make it YOU and your H need to become a team, not twins, not joined at the hip, but a joined in the heart team. You plan should include bringing this up and discussing with your H how to achieve this so that both of you are happy, fullfilled, and able to take on life's problems as a team. Oh! and take on life's joys as a team as well.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Hi, I am basically going through the same thing as you, but we divorced and got back together, but after 4 months of things being best ever then before.
Something snapped in my EX H. He doesnt want me no more. We have 3 boys 11, 12, 15. This is hurting them just as much as me.
I am not one to give advice because i am totally lost and confused whats going on with me.
If you read my post "lost and confused" and "I feel like i am married but not".
you can understand somethings what i have said.
If you H dont get counseling to over come you leaving and having an affair. he will never forget and deal with what you done.
because thats what is happening now with my EX H. He says he forgives but will never forget. So thats what is pulling us apart again.
I pray to god everynight that he will let me back into his heart. and help him deal with all this so we can stay together.
I was once told.
IF YOU LOVE SOMEONE LET THEM GO AND IF THEY COME BACK THEY WERE MENT TO BE TOGETHER

So God be with both of you and show you the way.
God bless.

Nancy,

Just checking to see how things are going.

JL