Been married for 21 years, just had our 21st aniversery. My wife has been sick ever since I we have been married with major operations and other things. She has managed to be employeed and gave birth to my most favorite thing in the world my daughter.

We have done nothing but argue our whole married life. Blow outs.. No hitting but lots of verbal abuse. I guess the best way to say it is she is a B for the lack of better terms and I am a control freak. I about left three times durring our marriage. After my daughter went off to school I told my wife if things did not get better I was gone. Our sex life was a big zero.. our emotional needs on either side not met.. For years co-workers knew I was unhappy. After a trip I saw several things that didn't change in her.. same ol same ol.. When we came back I told her I was going to leave that I had enough..

I have been gone since November.. My lawyer hasn't gotten all the paper work together.. I entered into counseling because of depression and guilt for leaving a sick wife. For awhile I had a good counslor.. then I got a sucky one when I had to change programs.. She simply told me I needed to decide if I wanted to be married or single.. I wanted to enter couple counseling to see if there was anything left in my mind.

Since leaving I met somebody else. She is a single mother of 3 and she has shown me what a relationship is suppose to be. She has more love for her kids than anybody I have seen. She has put my daughter before her. Anytime I needed to be with my daughter she has told me to go and be with her. She told me that I could even take care of my wife if she ever got sick.. She wouldn't love me if I was the kind of person that wouldn't take care of my daughters mother.

Problem is I can not disonnect. I can't figure out of it is material or emtional. My wifes parents are not talking to her, she has no friends to talk to. I am out on my own and have stopped for the most part seeing my friend. I have gotten my wife to agree to attend an session with me to see where it leads.. she uses words like you are leaving.. you will win... etc.. I see it as nobody is winning here.. this is about lives..

I took the emotional needs survey. Applied it to each.. my wife rated way low.. my friend rated high.. I can invision a future with my friend but not my wife.. but I can't cut loose 20 years..

My wife takes pot shots at me all the time, she makes comments under her breathe about people and makes comments about my friends. She says she can stop all of this but I am not sure if somebody can after doing it for so long.. When I am at home and away from my friend my mind drifts off to her..

I know it won't be the same with my friend in 20 years either.. but I feel she is my soulmate.. and she feels the same..

I have been reading the whole site here and I am really worried if my marriage can be saved after all I have read. I could be given up on a chance at a new life with somebody that is great to me, but at the same time I can not disconnect.

My wife has also been jealous of my daughter, rather than loving her with me she resented her and that drove us apart.

An example of my wifes snipe shots ... She told me today that she could tell how much I loved her based on how much I spent on her Christmas present. Heck I am paying rent.. my house payment for my wife to live in.. my daughters car payment and pretty much every bill at the house but Utils, phone and Cable.. How much is left for me after that...


Has anybody had any experience in this type of relationship? Is it possible to save it or is it over... My first counselor told me I was looking for a life change.. He thought I was gone from my marriage... but he also suggested I go through couples counseling to see if anything was left... There has been lots of pain and lots of stress in my marriage and I know it is not suppose to be the way it was...

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: lostafter20years ]</small>

lost - Welcome to marriagebuilders. It is a great place to be under the circumstances.

Of course, since this is a marriage building site, you need to have no contact with the other woman - and that is exactly what she is. She may say that she would not respect a man who didn't care for his wife, but she is a liar.

A good woman would not get involved with a married man. Hope you will stay around and learn what you need to do to save your marriage.

I think you are wrong when you call her a liar. I have had the chance to observe her and her family. Nothing like my wife and her family.

To show you how small my wife's family is they are not even talking to her or my daughter because my wife questioned her mother around Thanksgiving when my mother-n-law got mad at my daughter when she asked her mother not to pull our daughter into this. Have not talked to her at all.

My friend's family has taken me in as one of their own. They saw me go from in the bottle and not eating to surviving now. I have enter counseling and it has been a joke. I have seen how she treats her children with nothing but love and care. My wife hated my daughter and was always in her face. My wife's relationship with my daughter is why my aging dad did not move in with us. So there is a lot of pain in this marriage.

I have read almost this whole web site. I understand my friend is addidictive. She has never taken a snipe shot at me and has given me all the space I need to figure out what I am doing. We have some of the same dreams and visions in life. Here is an example..

We both head to the bargin areas to shop. My wife heads straight for the high dollar areas. Nothing on sale for her.

I have suffered great anger and frustration in my marriage. I can recall stopping my car in the middle of the road and getting out when my wife and I got into it over nothing. She and I both need help, but I think there is to much damage. She goes off on anything.. doesn't matter how small how big.. But I never left because I have the old self sacraficing complex that I can't get out of now...

My wife has had both knees replaced.. two female surgeries, a blood disorder, siezures, and has recently been diagnossed with a liver problems. I think in my mind this is what holds me back.

When I told her I was leaving I felt so free but I could not break away. I have done all the clasic things.. New house for us ... new furniture and built from the outside the happy little home...

But you know... I feel I could have done this with my friend and we both would enjoy it. She is true when it comes to what I tell you. Many friends that know her (both have) say she is the real deal when it comes to what she tells me. When things were started she told me I had to be divorced before she would have anything to do with me. Well I would have been had my attorney not been so slow on the paper work. This whole deal would have been over. I have take a person (her) that smiled at me and slowly drained her. Her smile and her actions can just light me up.. While the wife has since I have known her and continues to take snipe shots at me. My friend has never done that.

What holds me back with her is that I am afraid I will snap at her... and she deserves better. But I have broken most contact except conversation with her. When I am away from her, I long for her more. She wants both a giver & taker as her husband not just a taker. Which we were up until my wife called her after christmas.

Stress and guilt is what has stopped me from going forward with her. I have never thought of cheating on her. But know if I had not left I would had been cheating on my wife within months with anybody I could have found. My friend meets all my needs as I mentioned in my previous post.

So yes I need help!

Dear Lost....welcome to MB, but I must agree with Believer, this is a marriage building site. However, you made a statement in your own post which stands out for me...Problem is, I cannot disconnect. There is something there, it is just buried deep, beneath a great deal of hurt, anger and resentment.

As for the OW, your friend, take a few moments to read what you wrote about her. First of all, my WH other woman was a wonderful mother as well (I learned that she didn't have her children full-time), she told him that he could spend as much time with his children as he needed (when he started to spend too much time with them, guess who put a stop to that...one hint..it wasn't me); OW's family just love my WH, she showed him what a real relationship was like, etc., etc.

Just think, when we meet someone new, don't we always put our best foot forward. Who would be attracted to a surly, ugly, depressed person? I know I wouldn't.

The one, and most important thing that I learned from MB is that it takes two to bring a marriage to this point you are currently in, and it takes two to rebuild to a marriage that you want. Stay away from OW, make every attempt to work and rebuild with your wife and if then you realize it is not happening then u divorce and begin to date. If your OW is so wonderful, loving, compassionate and understanding, she'll commiserate with you. If not, then she's not so loving after all, is she.

PS...As a BS raising 2 children, any woman who knowingly dates a married man is not a good woman no matter how pretty the picture looks.

Ok where can I look up all the acryomns...

OW - Other Women
BS - ?????

Actually she is the way she is. I know she has issues. We have talked about it all openly. I think she is not married because of 3 kids. She has told me... Her kids come before me... And Mine should come before her...

Mine is 18 and in college.. And my friend knows I worship the ground my daughter walks on.

But yes I am looking at couples counseling. I finally got another counselor and he asked me to invite my wife. She looks at it as I am going to win to get the divorce. If that is the case then there is a looser. I don't see it that way. I see it as two winners or two loosers.. not just one.

Lost...the unfortunate thing here is even minimal contact is contact. I think that you owe it to all parties, yourself included as well as wife, daughter, OW (friend), this one last attempt. If and then it doesn't work out, you've basically tried everything, were not met half way, and can say that you've honestly done everything. Then I believe your conscious will be clear and your guilt may abate.

Good Luck.

Hi Lost

Read this thread and had to jump in with one of the things you said.

Went from the bottle and not eating.

As a practicing alcoholic my experience was denial about my own behavior. The behavior when active drinking is going on is one of the biggest love busters there is. Common sense can be turned into nonsense very quickly. The hurt I caused my family, friends, and myself drew me to the point of a suicide plan when I finally got treatment. The family also got sick with me. Those hurts and resentments did not go away just because I got sober.

As a recovering alcoholic I need to be aware of my behavior and remain in good positive relationships that question my alcoholic behavior.
Studies show it can take a recovering alcoholic up to eight years to feel normal after total abstinance. The family situation can be different.

From your post I am not sure if the counseling your talking about was for this or IC or as a couple.

Your post sounded familiar to my experience with the S having a lot of resentment and anger toward you. I sobered up and got better but couldn't figure out why the S was so angry. The fog of alcoholism and mixing in one night stands (A's) and then sobering up for six months, seperating, having an A sober created quite a mess. A's create a fog of there own also.
I've been on both side of this issue as a BS and FWH. Alcohol was and is still the root cause of the problems in our M.
On this websight there is an article called What to do with an alcoholic spouse. You may want to read it and see if anything applies from your side. Alcohoism is way more than the active act of consuming alcohol. That is only the outword sign of how sick we are inside.
I posted (ranted) friday on the plan A page if you want to read more about my personal story.

Please understand I am not saying you are an alcoholic. Thats way out of bounds for me to even attempt to say but your post struck a chord with my personal situation.

This is a marriage building site. It sounds like you love your S but so many Love Busters exist that it may seem hopeless. The OW is like a high for a short time. Reality will crash in to your life at some point. You married your S bc you were in love. That love may just be buried by all the LB-not just from her side but also yours.

I would stay away from OW until your 100% positive what direction you want to take in the M.
Its not fair to you, your S, you DD or the OW as it is right now.

Keep reading on the sight. A good book to read may be His Needs/Her Needs. It can be purchased at the online store here or sometimes locally. My experience with meeting her needs in the past was to take care of things financially/material. My intentions were good but very misdirected.

Good luck

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. No real drinking problem. That is what brought me to the real world. I was so stressed I got to using 1/2 pint to sleep on and eating popcorn as my only meal.

Sad thing is I think my wife needs more help then me. Just got off the phone with my daughter and she said mom was going physco on her. Lots of jealous feelings between those two on my wife's side.

I have tried my best to stay away from the other women, but I think it is like the one part Dr. H has said... some affairs actually ruin the marriage and they two end up marrying. My wife did say she could forgive me. But I read the book "Saying good by to guilt" Forgivness through love and it mentions forgiveness is 100% no other way. I don't think that is in her. But We are going to Couples counseling on the 31st. I am going with an open mind about what they want us to do.

I am worried my connection is material not for her.. Giving up the whole package. My daughter, my new house, dog and life as I knew it for 21 years.

Believe me I thought this would never happen to me and that is why I am so screwed up. My wife told me I defend the OW more than her when we try and talk about it all. I have never defended my wife. Even though she admits to the way she has treated me over the years.

I am going back to read the love busters part. My counselor said the same thing. I married her for one reason... but I can't remember it..

Got married on our lunch hour... Got engaged after rocky rocky courtship ... She asked me to marry her... Lots of signs... and this has been a struggle for me for years.. Why I married/why I haven't left..

In the hopes of figuring out why my marriage tanked I find myself using more of these tools in perperation for a life with as you guys call it the "OW"... I guess that is wrong.. but that is how I feel. She has wrapped me up with so much love and caring. She has comforted me in more ways than I could imagine.. I want a relationship like that and I can't invision that at home. No where close ....

I am seperated and that is where the counselor tells me to stay... My wife just wants me home... But I feel so numb it kills me

Hi, LostAfter-

Please forgive any harsh words that may seem like attacks or undue criticism. I tend to believe that no one would be here if they didn't have problems, and many of us have BIG ones (myself included)! That said, I tend to view other people's situations and actions through the cloud of my own experince. Perhaps that's what others do also.

For example, if a W reads this thread and she's been in a marriage similar to yours, you might get a few surly words. However, I've found the adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes is sooo true! I can be rather low on the compassion side until I end up going through a situation just like what I've criticized. That's when the cloud of my own experince becomes the clarity of my experience and I eat my words. To say take all advice with a grain of salt might be too flippant. But you get my drift...

This brings me to what sparked my post. No one knows the OW. So I'm not ready to call her a liar. But something karena said is likely true: Don't we all put our best feet forward with someone new? New relationships seem fab until the glow wears off, especially if you have real tough marital situation as the alternative. Almost anything would seem better.

The reality is it's not healthy for you or the OW to have a rebound relationship. If she could just be your friend, that would be great. But a platonic relationship with someone you're clearly attracted to is hard to achieve.

If you haven't guessed by now, my case is not that different than yours. I want to leave my hubby. Although he isn't chronically ill, his health isn't the best, he's heavy, smokes, doesn't eat right, has high BP and cholesterol and suffers from depression. On top of all that, he avoids doctors and tends to let his medical problems go. So I'm afraid one day, if I'm gone, he'll be really sick and I won't be there to help him. But he's grown (several years older than me)... am I responsible for what he does? The answer still eludes me.

I also have found someone I'm gaga over. We haven't dated yet. But he knows I like him. His feelings I'm not sure about. But I think he's interested. Would it be wrong to date him while I'm separated? I think so. I'm too conflicted.

Sometimes it's easier to figure out what to do if we think of ourselves as friends. What would you advise a friend in a similar situation to do? Or if your daughter were in a bad marriage...?

Here's the deal: your wife sounds like she needs counseling not couples therapy but individual. Is she willing to go? She's got her own problems that you couldn't fix whether you stay or go. Is hiring a part time nurse an option?

What's your spiritual situation, if I might ask? Christian, Jewish, religious, agnostic...?

Can your marriage be healed? Sure, I bet worse situations have been healed. Here's a scripture I hope helps you. Matthew 19:26 - "And looking at them Jesus said to them, 'With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'"

Witnessing via the Net is rather hard. But I suggest you seek a pastor for guidance in addition to your therapy. Do you have a Bible? unbound.biola.edu is a great searchable online Bible. If you don't have a hard copy, I can send you one, although Bibles are rather easy to find <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Peace.

I too think she needs help. I had her set up an appointment and then she backed out when I told her I couldn't stay based on all that was going on. She said she didn't need help.

Was at the house yesterday to see my daughter when she was home from school and the wife looked bad health wise.

I have lots of stress since Christmas. My aging dad has been in a nursing home for his lung problems and work has had much turmoil. So I have had no break. I think based on what happened before when I went home my counselor suggested I stay away from the home. All my stuff is there etc. I don't want to be one foot in and one foot out.

About the OW. Her best foot is always forward. That is simply the way she is. We have talked about what each other does that would make the other mad. So that is all in the open. She was raised by a step dad and values love more than anything else. She has set boundries with me and I observe those. She knows I am having issues with guilt and may go back.

Big problem I have is setting boundries with my wife. I have been reading the book "Boundries" and there was one chapter in there that hit me hard.. "equal seperation" my wife believe in no seperation just as the chapter expresses.

I am reading and trying everything I can think of. I see my wife on weekends at least one day. We go out to dinner etc. But I won't spend the night. Around Thanksgiving she put requirements on me to spend the night if I came to the house. Until she noticed I was scared being there. I try to rest during the week because I am pulling 6:30 - 7:00 days after work and taking care of my dad. So I need down time to myself. I have also started to write a book I have always wanted to write. I know my grammer here doesn't always fly... but it will in my book.

I am simply trying to survive and when I get close to moving back in she starts the arguing by punching my buttons.

I am working on it.. But am so lost.. I haven't slept with the OW in a long time... Ever since my wife called her..

The acronyms I think are on the EN board in the first thread.

What did your W say when she called the OW? And how did she get her phone number?

lost,

No one has yet mentioned a Midlife Crisis to you (MLC), I think you may be having one!!!! Here's a site to go a read. http://www.midlife.com/ Good info for you.

Stay away from the OW, you are haveing an emotional affair (EA) these are more severe then a physical affair (PA). She is not your friend, she is the OW and you need to remember that.

Your marriage can be saved, but one of you has to start working on it, yes it does take two to rebuild but one has to start the ball rolling. Marriage is two people, not three the OW cannot be in the picture at all. Yes you will go thru withdrawl from her probably alot like what you went thru when stopping the drinking. You survived that didn't you? You would not be here at this site if you didn't know that what you are doing with this OW is wrong, so now go from there and get things where they need to be with your wife. You both need IC and a good marriage counselor, 21 years is a long time to be hurting someone that you love.

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She was actually cival to her. She got her phone number off a locator where I work via a friend of hers. She asked her to leave me alone until I could figure out what I wanted to do. She mentioned to her that there was kids involded on the ow side and she needed to protect them too.

I have tried to get my wife to go to IC but she won't. I think that is why my IC asked her to come with me next time.

Bought the book fall in love stay in love to see what it has to say.

She was actually cival to her. She got her phone number off a locator where I work via a friend of hers. She asked her to leave me alone until I could figure out what I wanted to do. She mentioned to her that there was kids involded on the ow side and she needed to protect them too.

I have tried to get my wife to go to IC but she won't. I think that is why my IC asked her to come with me next time.

Bought the book fall in love stay in love to see what it has to say.

<small>[ January 23, 2005, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: lostafter20years ]</small>

Hi,
First, I really don't like divorce and I think a couple should do everything they can to work things out, if there is a reasonable chance things can be fixed. I am the child of a bitter divorce, who was placed with a mentally ill and dysfunctional mother. So I know when to cut my losses. I am also recently divorced from a wife who had a bad temper and was frequently verbally abusive, sometimes breaking things in our house. Again, I know when to cut my losses.

In my opinion, it seems your wife has become extremely frustrated with her illness, and after 20 years of dealing with that, and fighting with you, that there really is no *reasonable* hope of her changing. I'm not saying she is a bad person, but she has been through a lot and that changes people. I also believe it has also damaged how you view the relationship with your wife. I'm guessing your age, but I think you should stop this old pattern of fighting and divorce your wife.

It is very likely your wife has developed depression or maybe a personality disorder, due to high stress over many years. This type of stress has a tendency to change a person's physiological brain makeup of even the strongest person.

I know you need someone right now, but I think you can tell a lot from the other woman by the fact that she is "seeing" a married man (you). I'm not saying you should or should not see this other woman, but to get involved with another person at this stage of HUGE emotional confusion is a really bad idea often leading to bad judgements.

If the other woman really likes you, you can always get back together when the divorce is final in a year or so. If she really did not think you are special, she will just hook up with another man anyway and you really did not lose something special you thought you had.

I'm sorry this is so hard on you. Things will get better when you start over. It was hard for me but I'm really glad I'm no longer a part of the abusive environment I was in. No, I don't miss her a bit.

I hope I don't get banned for that, I just signed up. I think some people just don't want to change, and it's reasonable for a person to try to help them, but if they just don't want to change, and the situation is harmful to one or more people, then get a divorce. A marriage should not make you miserable.
Marriages aren't perfect but don't stay in your own he11.