My D isn't in counseling. I'm not sure what to do with our kids. I think the best thing that can happen is if our M is able to improve.

It's interesting -- we're to send daily emails to each other. The nastiness can occur there, away from the kids.

I got a broken arm when I threatened to call OW, and that resulted in 3 surgeries because he broke one of the bones in seven pieces. That was three years ago. He's gone to an anger management support group since them but now he's seeing a therapist who will do joint counseling as well.

A woman from our church, with a kindergarten girl like us and a third grade boy like us, just died from liver cancer. She died with dignity and acceptance. I think of what a gift life is and wonder why I am continuing in this abusive relationship. I guess it is because of hope that it can change. He is going to counseling. Maybe we are at the bottom today.

Cherished

Oh, my, a broken arm??? I am so sorry. You have a VERY big heart. Someday he will see it, too. Has he really made any changes since then? HE needs to make progress, since this is not your fault. You deserve a better life than that, as I'm sure you have heard before. If you really want to make this M work you MUST stop any "nastiness" immediately, whether in front of the kids or not. Go into Plan A and try to meet his needs. I have my own reservations about Plan A'ing an abusive partner, so please be careful.

Repeat after me... I DESERVE TO BE HAPPY. I DESERVE RESPECT. I DESERVE TO BE SAFE. (You get the picture?)

Cherished, you have four children of course it's hard to leave. Financially and otherwise. My gosh though a broken arm? How dare he! You have to decide for yourself about this, but you know it's wrong. Do you think it'll change? I thought that, most women do, they don't want to end their relationships, they just want the violence to end. But anger builds and grows as you can see, it's hard to stop because it feeds and feeds. My husband too cheated (I didn't prove the act, but an emotional affair) and that's when our fighting started. My anger made me so ugly, he started hurting me to shut me up. No matter, after I had a child I worried for the child. Sick that I didn't think of myself as a good enough reason to leave for, but my kid, yes! He's only 10 months old, he already witnessed four incidents of DV, four too many. He cried, now he's at the age he'll start to remember more. He's still in love with life, I removed him from a toxic marriage, it was unfair to him. My husband is now begging for me to come back for the baby's sake. For me, separation was the key to me regaining strength, I highly doubt I'll go back, I'm giving myself six months on a lease at an apartment. Yes, it's expensive, but there are sources out there to help. I didn't have to use them but you can look into them. I beg to differ on plan A, I believe in tough love, I didn't do it years ago when I should have. You have to show them you are serious, there has to be consequences and they have to lose their family to wake up in most cases of DM, if they wake up. Read all you can on the subject, it'll be what you don't want to hear. Yes, some men change, most don't while they are in a marriage, stats are bad. I thought I could beat them, I didn't and don't know many that have. Think of your health too, my dad is dying of cancer and it's hitting home. Living in such a marriage has been such stress to my body, I want a happy full life, to see my child grow up, I can't do that if I wind up with all sorts of health problems related to stress, which many health issues are. Best wishes and please keep us posted.

I tried to let him know how miserable I feel, and that attempt really backfired. He was so angry at me that our 8 year old came running in to ask us to stop. He has not been physically violent with me since March 2002, the affair was exposed in May 2002, and he even has significantly reduced swearing. Now he's going to weekly counseling. The problem is that the marriage doesn't seem to be improving for me, and I'm not sure why. He says I blame him for Harley's program not working for us. I'm not sure why it didn't work, but it didn't. Now we're on to joint counseling. Where does it end?

I think you are wise to remove yourself from an abusive H. My H is doing the right things -- going to counseling and going to an anger management support group -- but things don't seem to be getting better for me. He says it's becasue I want to be miserable. I've told him I'm scared of him.

Cherished

Maybe you want to be miserable because you have been through so much. Maybe you don't trust him because he's proven to be untrustworthy. This shows you are healthy in a way, really, he hurt you BAD physically and mentally. Will he stop, can you trust him again? Are the counselors saying you can? Are they telling you he won't hurt you again? Personally I think it'll always be in the back of your head, I was advised by a Christian counselor three years ago to leave my husband because it'll always be there, I'll never trust him again. What sort of a marriage can you have without trust? A convenient one? I stayed to fight my husband, I went to another shrink after I threw him in jail after a verbal argument that turned physical right before Christmas. NOW this shrink tells ME I need medications, that was his angle on saving our marriage after all of this. The shrinks are in it for the money, it's a huge industry, DV included. They aren't going to tell you the real truth, I researched those programs at least in one state - when they interview people who "graduated" years later, there were HUGE amounts of DV that continued. Being forced into classes doesn't change these men. Only a change in heart, perhaps with the help of God will change these men. They have to want to change. You know your husband best, you'll know if he's really changed at heart, if he's really remorseful, if he really is begging for your forgiveness. I know my husband wants me back, I will not go, even if a shrink says he's "safe" I'll decide if he is or not. I think women have a gut feeling, an intuition that is meant for our self protection. If you don't trust your husband, there might be reasons why. However if you want the marriage to work, if you truly do, if you think you can trust him again, somehow you have to learn to forgive him. I grew up Christian haven't been practicing for awhile, but the idea of forgiveness is for "you." So you can let go of your anger and pain. If we carried this with us the rest of our lives we could never move on, either in the marriage or a single moms. We also have guilt that we so called provoked it. If you've been to counselors likely some have done a little of that angle, and sure it's true, we can think of the times we were ugly, yelled, screamed and so called provoked. Whether we were protecting ourselves mentally or physically we did it. You have to let go of that as well, even in AA meetings they have a higher power, to turn their alcoholism over to. Not to preach, but there's a reason, it's hard to do it on our own. I am trying to listen to Christian music as I drive, go on walks, listen to the birds chirp, take baths - now I'm going to workout and get in shape. It's hard to be positive, to heal to move forward after having gone through so much. In the Christian faith no matter what happened, no matter what you or your husband did there is the opportunity to start fresh. Christian or not, there is value to that, you can't possibly dwell on the sins of your or your husband for life. I can't either. A shrink accused me recently of having too big of a heart, of believing people can change. I still believe it. I always will. He's trying to say he "knows my husband" not having seen him in three years, having met us about 10 times in counseling. Both my husband and I have grown since then, sure we still had some fights, not near what they used to be. Perhaps for me and final "this is it" warning, a serious one will get it through his thick skull. Sick that it had to come to this, but I do believe in Tough Love, James Dobson wrote the book. He tries to save marriages, he thinks women should be tough, stand firm when it comes to abuse, and leave. Returning only when they are told by a professional it's ok (the glitch is of course are the shrinks professional). I hope you can find some peace in your life, if you stay, peace through forgiveness, if you go, peace through forgiveness as well. Of course if you stay you'll never really see your husband in the same light as a young married woman does. Be gentle, like a lamb but smart (you can hug him again but don't ever let your head hide in his shoulder). Trust your instincts. Try to stop crying in front of him, shorter your arguments, be firm, less emotional - this is the best tactic a shrink taught me with my husband over the phone - you see these men like to see us weak, then they can blame us for this mess. Try not to let them see you weak. My husband right now can't stand this, he's the one crying now, not me. He's the weak one, he's always been. I'm just emotional, but those intense emotions made my marriage worse not better. Now I'll know how to hide my emotions from most people, it's a sad lesson to learn, because I believe in living life, emotions are a part of who I am - sadly this man took that away from me. It's not that I'm cold, but I am no longer that weak, pathetic wife that he knew. He'll never see me like that again, there will be no more tears and begging to him, ever. Do you see what I mean?

This Thursday, four more days my husband and his attorney will go in front of the DA and will either accept their offer or not, if not we go to court in front of a jury trial I think in the next month over the DV issues. I don't want to go to court, my dad is dying, I've already separated, I have a boy to take care of and it's too much stress. I'm hoping they'll lower the charges to just harassment and make him go to counseling. I"m going to call the DA again in the next few days to ask him about this. My attorney friend said even if something happens in the future harassment is enough to say it was DV for custody purposes and otherwise. It makes me angry that the DA office doesn't give a dang. They have too many cases, now I'm a victim of the system. Paperwork says I have the right to be 'heard' and my side taken into account. My husband is a banker, this can cause the loss of his career for life. Not to excuse what happened, but I'm not out for revenge, I just want to get on with my life. I didn't have any bruises that night I called the cops, I guess I wanted to win the argument, but yes he slapped, pushed, shoved me. He needs to learn a lesson and this will be enough for him to learn. They treat me like I'm some dumb victim, I know the system, I was a journalist, I know what was my fault, his fault, i'm not an idiot like they want to make me out to be. Yes, I called the cops, yes I wanted this to end, it's ending. My husband is waking up a bit, he can't get off no, but the harshes of sentences they gave him against my will. You'd think I'd have a say. Oh well, it'll hopefully be over on Thursday if the DA follows "my" instructions. I don't have to go, I'm considering going because if my husband and his attorney don't accept that, or if they dont' lower charges I'll hear their arguments. I have a right to know that. But I don't know if I want it to upset me more. I really really do want to get on with my life. Now. Has anyone been through the court system, to these hearings, through court with a judge or DA? I haven't seen my husband in over a month since the night from hell. I'm not ready to see him, if I go obviously I will have to. He's called trying to make me feel sorry for him, in a way I do, I'm not pathetic, but I do want to minimize this. We have a child together. I want protection for the future in case something goes wrong, but I don't want to make my life hell with attorneys, courts, judges and people making decisions for me. I'd like to make my own decisions, with their input. Mostly I regret ever having called the police that night. I wish I'd just left quietly, separated and taught my husband a lesson this way. I let my anger, rage get the best of me, i wsa in his face all day and it resulted in a mess. I have journals about all the incidents that happened, the attorney said if they lower this, along iwth my journals I have enough if there's future problems. That's all I want...

Horsey, please don't regret that you calle dthe police. Not only did he damage your marriage, possibly beyond repair, but he broke the law.

These cases can take awhile. In Vermont, you're arraigned (where you plead guilty/not guilty/no contest), then there is a "calendar call" where the two sides say what they will be bringing to support their sides (and another chance for the defendent to plead), then it goes to trial after that (which the court wants to avoid as much as possible, especially if their is evidence of abuse, and since it is only a misdemeanor charge here).

It's normal for the "victim" to run out of steam by the time these things get going. This is how it is with DV anyway, up and down, up and down...

You absolutely did the right thing. No contact is THE way to go right now. Don't talk to him. Concentrate on YOU and that BABY!!!

Love, WAID

Horsey,
You did the right thing to call the police, esp. with a baby in the home. It doesn't take much for a baby to be killed.

His actions have consequences that need to be faced by him. By exposing what was going on, you gave the legal system the opportunity to intervene. You did the right thing.

Cherished

I don't want to go to court, I just hope they lower the charges and he accepts them, then he'll have to go to counseling and will have a smaller charge, but that's enough if I need help with custody issues in the future or if he hurt me again. He'll still be on a two year probation I think. If his current bank job finds out he'll lose his job as it's in his contract he has to tell them. I only feel bad about this being on his record, I'm a nice enough person. Plus I don't want him to hate me for life. He'll meet someone else and will be more apt to leave me alone. He has a lot of pride, I need him to go away as much as possible, not blame me, get on with his life. Do you see what I mean? If it's between going to court and him getting off I guess I'd rather he get off. If they won't lower the charges I'll be mad that they didn't listen to me and i'll become an unwilling witness. I don't think it's fair that they are half ignoring me... but I'm going to make another call to the DA tomorrow or Tuesday and remind him of what I want done on Thursday, a lowered charge.

Should I go to the meeting on Thursday where they discuss this with him? I'd rather not but if I don't I can't complain that I wasn't a part of the process. No the DA doens't want to go to court so I'm thinking he'll do this for me... With my dad dying, the baby, my business and all in my life I don't have the energy to fight my husband. I really don't.

Horsey,
I'm enough out of the abuse fog to know why they aren't listening to you. Let them do their job. Whether he loses his job because you exposed what was going on is his problem. What he does with the legal system is his problem.

Let me tell you how deep I was in the abuse fog. When my H broke my arm, he came to the side of the bed and I put up my hands to protect my face. He punched away my arm and punched my shoulder. His intent was to punch my shoulder.

He blamed me because his intent was to punch my shoulder. I was the one who put my arms up to my face. I was to blame.

I accepted the blame.

Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? I was at fault because I put my hands up to protect my face?

Now go back and read what you wrote. How are you at fault?

The only way you two can reconcile is if HE WAKES UP and he sure isn't going to wake up if you cooperate in letting him blame you. That's part of the abuse fog. Let the legal system do their job. They see pathetic women like us all the time, women who are ashamed of their behavior that led to the SO's hurting them and the legal system not understanding it was really their fault.

People in the legal system understand all right. They understand that the abuser is at fault, not the person who exposed the abuse.

Cherished

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

I second Cherished in this, Horsey. Let the legal stuff happen. You are not responsible for ANY of this, even if you did "fight back". There shouldn't BE anything to fight back against in the first place. His entire way of behaving is totally unacceptable. Finally he will feel some consequences.

If he loses his job, I would be very surprised. Especially if it's only probation. Just because he has to tell them, doesn't mean they will automatically fire him. Are you worried about being supported when you are "concerned" about his job? You should already be thinking of ways to support yourself at this point. You'd be amazed at how the H's try to get out of supporting their beloved wife and kids. Don't think for a minute that he won't use money to try to control you. He will become desperate to get you to do what he wants (which is, of course, to SHUT UP and stop rocking the boat).

You are worrying too much about him. He will get what is coming to him finally. Let him answer for what he has done.

Of course he will blame you...He will think this as long as he is an abuser. There is NOTHING you can do about it except work on getting out. Why would the DA want to lessen the charges, why would YOU? They are really acting in your best interest. They know that abused women don't want to bring punishment on their attackers. They see it all of the time, I'm sure.

I would go on Thursday. Bring someone with you, like a close family member or friend, that will help so much to minimize your contact with him.

I don't have anyone to go with me to the hearing. We moved to this city just two months after I had a baby that's now almost 10 months, I was working, raising baby and didn't really make any friends there. I moved back to the town we used to live five hours away but everyone works you know. I don't want to go alone and face my husband, I guess if it comes to that I likely won't go. You are right, the DA thinks he has to press charges no matter, I do want the charges lowered so I can sleep at night again. My attorney said even with the lowered charges and that I have my journals that document a lot of this, it's enough if something happened in the future. My husband will still have to pay with classes and probation with the charges lowered and it won't cost him his job I don't think. I am a nice person, I know it takes two to screw up a marrige. I appreciate that there are true victims out there - I was not one, I chose to stay and verbally fight him. I knew what I was doing, I knew he'd hurt me in return. I could have left, I have money and a business. I also know that I did this to him some times, he's right about that. Neither of us knew how to discuss issues rationally, the shrinks should have taught us about communication skills and boundaries, they never did. Most abuse I think isn't because one person is bad the other is good, it's because neither know how to communicate on tough issues and it goes over the edge. It's wrong, I'm not saying it isn't, and my husband is wrong to blame it on me although the system is already working and hes' calling himself a loser and is starting to realize what he did. The system that's working is the legal system and me withholding his child that he loves and hasn't been able to see. That is the main incentive for him to wake up and change. Christian counselors said they've seen it. But I have work to do on myself. That I am called the "victim" and some shrink says for the sake of the "cause" that I don't need counseling is wrong too. I do, I have anger issues, this didn't happen in a vacuum, I am not an innocent bystander. I think the DV movement just goes to far, but that's in my case alone that I am judging. And in making me a victim the courts have turned me into a victim saying I have no say. I am not stupid, I know what happened, I documented it...

horsey,
I was in your shoes with the anger and pushing away any and all ideas that I was a victim. I was so ugly to my husband whom I loved. I am in no way innocent here. My poor husband had to put up with me doubting his honor, his inner character, his integrity all the time. He had to hear me say nasty things to him, and think the worst about him like he was the devil incarnate in my kitchen! Poor, dear, sweet man. He really deserved better. Especially after he proved his love to me the night he stalked me and attacked me in the street. He really showed me how much he cared when he called me names in front of my son. That was nice of him, I wish I had been nicer back... he really deserved better than ugly old me who "turned" on him apparently for no reason!
Do you hear yourself?
Listen, if my H had been differently towards me, he would have been given my best treatment. He would have had carte blanche to my heart and all my kindness. It goes both ways, so don't beat yourself up!
SAdly, my H didn't treat me with decency and respect, and I reacted in kind. SO sue me. I am human, and sometimes not a very nice one- especially if I'm in survival mode or if I'm backed into a corner. Yes, I attacked him right back. I gave him a bloody nose, and tried to kick him in the balls. I'm a vindictive and mean, mean woman, aren't I? I'm not condoning violence, I'm condoning self-worth and the idea that we all have a breaking point. These men, they know just how to put us there. AND They know we'll beat ourselves up for it, and think we deserve it when they get down on us.
Until you understand that he wanted you to act ugly, that he wants you to feel badly for calling the police because then he's justified in how he treats you... until you hear that loud and clear, you're in for a rough time.
I agree with what some others here have said: examining WHY is counter productive. Looking at pain in your past can be worthy when you see how you handled it, how you got through it, and recognize what it has given you now.
You are NOT flawed that you "chose" an abusive man. I can tell from reading about you that you don't hate yourself that much. You wouldn't wish that on your very own demon husband, much less on yourself!
And I doubt you love chaos. You wouldn't be here at this site if you did. You wouldn't be able to organize a business, or take care of your son appropriately if you did.
You may have become addicted to chaos (certain chemicals in the brain are released in times of panic, extreme anger, or fear, and we can suffer withdrawls of not having them) because it was around you all the time, but you do'nt love it, or even like it. You left it!

I'm sorry, look, I know this is hard for you to hear, but abusers are MASTERS at manipulating. You are right about one thing: you are not an idiot!
You most likely knew you were being manipulated, andknew the way he was treating you was bad-- I knew i was being manipulated, and knew he ws treating me badly-- but what were you to DO about it?
Realistically? What were you to DO about it?
Were you supposed to be "above it" and to have some magic, some keen insight or adept ability to turn it all around?
You beleive in the good in people.
I Can't see that as a failure in any way, shape, or form.
You beleive people can change.
They CAN.
Look at you! Look at me! Look at the other women here who are taking a stand, upholding their boundaries. The ones who have left or are getting ready to because enough is enough.
I tried to maintain my boundaries. I had a healthy set of them. I needed respect, dignity, and decency to even consider a person a friend of mine. How it came to be that I put up with, lived with and convinced myself I loved my husband, I will never know!
If your husband was someone you just knew and was so ugly to you, would you let him take you to lunch?
No, you wouldn't! Heck you might not even talk to ME after you finish reading what I've had to say here, and I wouldn't blame you!
Listen, or not, but I think I'm a little furhter along in my journey here and I see what happened with a little more clarity every day.
In the beginning, I was doing my job. I was in love, and therefore a bit slack, but
I put up high fences when things began to turn for the worst in my marriage, but it did me NO GOOD because I see now that my husband tore my fences down. ANd then he squashed them with my underneath.
He totally disrespected my need for space, for time, to process my own way, my need for dignity, and respect, and trust, my need to be gracious, generous, and polite... he pushed me against the fences I built to protect myself.
He knew what my vulnerabilities were and used them against me. It was him who did that. I was in love, and being a good person.
There is nothing wrong wiht me that I stayed as long as I did. I COULDN'T Leave. In the back of my head was the beleif in the good I saw in him, my vows to be married, and the idea I had that maybe I was quitting too soon (I was definitely cloudy in my thinking)I beleive now that If I had have left him sooner, I would have ended up going right back because of some nagging doubt that I"d made the right decision.
I'm not proud of the way I treated him. I felt awful-- in part because he was telling me I was awful-- that it was my fault, that I antagonized him. He'd say "We are not safe" instead of what would be more accurate in stating "You are not safe."
It took me forever to see what a game he was playing! That his choice of words were designed to misrepresent and cloud the truth. The truth was that he didn't love me, he loved control.
I also felt badly that I treated someone I loved so poorly. I couldn't beleive how scathingly mean I was to my husband, or that I turned him in. BUt the truth is the facts.
He was breaking the law.
I turned him in, but I wouldn't have had to if he hadn't have broken it!
The same goes with your H.
HE Chose to break it. It was entirely up to him.
Would you want someone to not report you if you were breaking it? Why do not uphold him to the same standards you hold yourself to?
DO you feel it was a deal you and he had that it was OK for him to break the law when it came to you? And that you didn't uphold your part of the agreement when you called the police?
WEll, I don't think you had a formal agreement, and if you did, it was slanted in his favor, in which case you are the victim, Horsey, even if you signed the agreement, the playing feild wasn't level. Bambi may agree to fight godzila, but we can all see that just isn't right.

No one here can make you see that reconcillation shouldn't even be on the table because we are not in it like you are.
I won't try to scare you with statistics about how many women who beleive in goodness, go back, and the abuse gets worse. SOmetimes they are killed.
If that happened, who's fault would that be?
Yours?
What do you feel you agreed to that is giving you such guilt?
Did you hear yourself say that it was OK for him to treat you like crap? Did you agree to be a punching bag? A door mat? If so, how? And more importantly, can't you take it back? When will the time come for you to take a stand?
Do you want your son to act like him?

I'm sorry I'm so adamant here about this. I have been through the same cycles you are in... I was really afraid for a long time that my H might lose his nursing license, and I knew that if that happened, he would hate me forever.
That I would go down in history as being the b*tch who ruined his career.
Nevermind that HE ruined it with his actions. Nevermind that he was a nurse at the time he decided to become violent towards me.

I mean, he dug that hole himself when he chose violence, when he decided it was OK to manhandle me. Sure I was a nasty B!tch, and I am in no means innocent by a long shot (A LONG SHOT, beleive me).
BUt if you are going to beleive you asked for this, then I have to beleive I asked for it to.
That I"m flawed for beleiving in the good, that he can change, that I love him.
I see now that I didn't love him. I was enmeshed in the game, I was acting out a role, but was that love?
You know, I don't think it was. When I think of love, I do not think of a man throwing his wife around, or her puting him down, giving him negative feedback, antagonizing him. That is not my idea of love, and I beleive in love enough to know where it stands, and where We stood, and see how far away from it we were.
I know that was not love. When I really love someone I do not treat them as if they are satan.
Granted, marriage is hard, and things slip. We all make mistakes. But what you are talking about is not a little mistake. It's not a slip. It's engrained in his character, it's the major part of his emotional make up. It's who he is.
And yes, he is other things, and he is capable of goodness.
But we are talking about an entire dynamic between two people who are supposed to honor and protect and respect each other.
I know what we had was not a real marriage. At least not my idea of marriage. I am calling it like I see it, because I beleive in marriage.

I do'nt feel a bit badly that your husband had to put up with the likes of you all this time. I don't feel any sadness for him that he was burdened by you and the baby, and that the poor guy now has has legal consequences for his actions.
Time for him to grow up. Cause and affect is the name of the game... or call it actions and consequences.
I am more than willing to let him lie in the bed he's made.
Lucy

Hey just wanted to join in here and let you all know what a wonderful thread this is. Reading through this has just blown my mind.

The man i married was awesome.. caring, giving, supportive. He wanted me to get a ring tattoo on my finger because divorce was just not an option. Well guess what, after the initial lovey dovey feeling was over, everytime we had a disagreement, he would say that we needed to get a divorce. He started to do more and more things that he knew hurt me to please himself. Tell me that he didn't like acting like my father, but i gave him no choice. Tried telling me that men just don't let thier w drive their car. I started catching him coming home from hanging out with his friends drunk - he would never really drink before because his father was an alcoholic and he was afraid of being abusive like him. He started hanging out this group of shallow guys. If i told him that these things hurt me, he would tell me that it was because i was insecure or that i am trying to control him or manipulate him. And it even got to the point when i tried to talk to him about things, he would stop and tell me that if i continued that he was going to start in on me and tell me things that i didn't want to hear.

Both his parent and grandparents had unhappy marriages. His mother told me a few weeks ago is our problem was that we were expecting to stay in love after we got married and that's just not how marriages work. I come from happilied married parents, my parents had problems, even discussed divorce once, but they worked on it, and now those two are gone every weekend on a vacation. I know love belongs in marriage, no one can convince me otherwise.

ABout a year ago, i started doing the Boundaries book with a friend, and started studying with other happily and unhappily married women. H and I did marriage counceling for a couple months, things got a little better but overall no change. I was too timid to enforce what our marriage counclor told us to do and he was to busy with any distraction he could find.

I seperated from my H the first of December becasue i just couldn't take it anymore. IT was the week before thanksgiving and H just wouldn't give me an answer on if was going to join my family for thanksgiving and I waited until it was the day before and he told me he would let me know thanksgiving morning if he felt like going. So i told him he was no longer invited, finally told my parents everything that was going on, and went and stayed with them for the weekend. I went apt shopping the day i got back.

We agreed our seperation was to work on our marriage. I have been trying desperatly to get H to work on our marriage, things finally took an upward turn about three weeks ago, he started taking me on dates and inviting me over for dinner. I picked out the study (from this site) and he agreed to give it a try. I ordered all of the books. And then wham, our next date, he treated me like crap. SO i got mad and yelled at him, he yelled at me, and i left. We have had one date since then and in the middle of the evening he stopped at a furniture store and told me he was going to buy new furniture for his house since i had the couch. I asked him to let me be a part of it, since you know we are still working on our marriage, and that just pissed him off becasue i was trying to control him and that it wasn't my house anymore. Since then he drained our saving account against my wishes and put it into his grandmother's mutual fund because his mother wouldn't quit bothering him about it.

I called him last week to borrow the vaccuum on a day that wasn't one of our date days. Well he hasn't spoken to me since. Skipped the two other study dates we had planned without calling me. HE wrote me an email last week saying he would call me today and not to contact him in the meantime. Well he still hasn't called, i tried his home phone and got no answer.

I have been out long enough to know that he is doing all these things just to get a rise out of me. So that i get mad and yell and he can tell me i am a bad person. It hurts so much to know that someone you love could do this to you. I am not perfect, thier are many things i should have done differently, but nothing justifies knowingly making another person feel like crap.

We are not divorced yet, but i feel it is coming soon. I promised myself that I wouldn't persue a D until next December, and I am going to stick to it. I am going to wait it out in hopes that he will realize that all these material possesion don't fill the voids, and that even if he ignores these problems now they will come back later. I hope he picks up the marriage books i order and looks through like i did and say wow i am not perfect, and I am in no position to ask for anything until i fix myself.

I am coming to the realization that he just might not ever choose to work instead of run. However inconceivable that is to me.

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: tart ]</small>

Tart,
I know it's hard, but don't let him manipulate you. There's yelling and screaming as a normal mode of communication, and there's yelling at someone for a REASON.
I"m a nice person. I really am. I'm a good friend. I"ve had some of the same friends since grade school and not out of habit, but because they like me, and we mutually respect each other.
My H has no friends.
HIs fmaily is really disfunctional-- sounds like your H.
So, who is the "bad guy" here?
Well, neither of you are bad, and I don't want to turn this into a blame game, but remember that nothing he says can destroy or dminmish the truth about who you really are. That's reality.
I'm sorry I wasted so much time listening to my STBX and entertaining ideas that he was right, or even could be right about me.... that I was abusive.
I was mean to him becasue the line was crossed and I stick up for myself.
That was my survival mode.
We all have a survival mode, and mine is to fight.
Others is to become quiet and silently take it. I admire that because they don't exacerbate the angerball, and once all is said and done, they ahve peace of mind knowing they remained decent.
But for me, it isn't normal. Normal for me is to yell right back, and stick up for myself because otherwise, I feel like a welcome mat, and I feel like I"m somehow contributing to his disrespect of me.
Netier approach works or does any good with a man like your H or my STBX.
I have come to terms with the fact that I'm a fighter when I'm backed into a corner. I accept myself as that, and know it can make me very mean.
I NEED decency and respect as the norm. NOt the exception. As long as I have that, I'm not in a corner and I'm fine.
Certainly moods will come and go, but I can account for that. I didn't lash out to my H until a long time of letting it blow over, atributing it to stress, to being newlywed, to a lot of change, etc. I couldn't be making excuses and coming up with reasons any more and still respect myself. I tried a mellow-mannered approach about trust issues....
It got me now where. I said "I feel that you don't trust me. I haven't done anything to make you not trust me. If you don't trust me, then we have problems bigger than the both of us, you know?"
He actually heard me that time, and I guess he answered the question himself: nope, he had no trust for me. From that point on, it was worse.
Cognitively he could say that I was good wife, that he felt "incredibly loved and incredibly loving", that he knew I hadn't done anything intentionally to make him not trust me.
But a man with trust issues will have them, no matter what; I've learned.
Stick to your guns. Remember who you are, that you are a good person, that you have spunk, that you will not let your spirit be squelched, and that you can leave before you get nasty so you don't have to hear a bunch of BS from him about what a bad person you are.
Lucy
PS-- HOrsey-- are you allright?

posted February 15, 2005 11:04 AM                     
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Despite the advice, I lowered my husbands violence charges, he came out of the DA's office with harassment and requiring 36 hours of DV counseling then it'll be off his record with two years probation. I didn't want to go to court in front of a jury trial, there wasn't evidence from the day he hurt me, no bruises, I should have called two months before when there was damage, I moved out and moved back in just to be a bigger doormat for him to walk over as he came and went, vent his problems on, blame his life on, igore. I have give him chance after chance, even tried to get an apartment near him so he could see the baby more, instead he chose to be a jerk, I canciled the rent agreement and moved five hours away to where we used to live.
So I'm dumb enough to try one more marriage counselor due to the advice of a Dobson counselor that I talked with for hours. One more professional to analyze the situation. Of course he did what domestic violence counselors said he would, saw my clean cut conservative banker husband, heard all his lied and told me I needed to be medicated. Really. Then he said in a session alone with him that I was guarding my heart closely because I grew up in a family with three brothers who verbally bashed me their entire lives and still do. So a counselor online told me this is typical and I know it is from books and the dv counselors, that my husband will go to counseling and pretend to be the perfect husband, "gaslighting" me as one counselor called it as he won't accept blame for anything. He only comes out feeling and looking good if he makes me look foolish.
For example, in the session I said I couldn't find daycare, had to move the baby got sick, I almost lost my business as I'm self employed. The counselor asked about agreements with the baby, I said books say a mom should be with the baby most of the time at this age. My husband then the nice guy offered to take vacation days to help with the baby. The counselor was thinking, wow, what a "nice" husband, what's wrong with HER? He didn't see how months and months went by with my husband at home calling the baby my job, refusing to ever even help for an hour, slept down the hallway, watched tv at night in the basement completely ignoring both of us... When I got mad he actually drew up a chart, showing how he was the so called breadwinner and what he does, saying he doesn't have time for the kid that he went on and on for years wanting.
So whatever my husband said the day he went to the counselor alone without me, gave the counselor the right to tell me I have to be medicated. This on top of my lowering my husband's charges just enables him more. I went to this counselor for Christian advice, instead he enabled my husband, said I should stay in an abusive marriage, didn't even ask the right questions. A Christian counseling site online said he's counseling by psychology and not the Bible. That God wouldnt' want me to stay in a situation with such abuse, that I've given him too many chances and that the violence will be worse if I return. That he'll continue to "gas light" me in front of counselors who seem to stupid to figure it out.
I can't have my little boy in such a marriage, I have been so angry, it's just built and built into pure resentment for this man. I dropped the baby off over the weekend, stayed for awhile as I was half sick from working and staying up all night with a sick kid for a week. My husband didnt' say anything of meaning, just played with the baby in front of me, I think to make me feel guilty as he wanted me to stay so bad. OF course he wants me to move right back in, says we'll just quit fighting, hasn't even "really" apologized for this mess other then one mumble of he's sorry two months ago. If he was sorry he'd be doing anything to show he's wrong, and he'd even admit it, not blame me for even half of it because it's not half my fault. He went over the line over and over again, he was told over and over he can't do that, he continued. I left several times, came back for more.
I know it's likely best if I go for a quick divorce, I have to fly home to be with my dying father in a few days, I don't have the energy to do it. It might only be a month with my dad, he's more important then a stupid husband who's a little boy in a grownups body. My father never criticized my mom in front of children, was kind, loving, stable and quiet. My husband can't even begin to measure up to a real man, my dad had flaws, but my husband - what a mean, cruel little man. Yes, it's not just me that's figured this out, my husband causes trouble without me, I'm the third wife and he's lost three jobs in the seven years I've been with him. His current boss is giving him the notice this week, seems as though his power and control don't make customers or bosses happy either. No matter, I'm just beat and need to stay away from him.

Lucycakes, thank you for what you wrote me. I just read it, I have been out of town most of the week and was off this site. I appreciate that I can identify with you, yes the cycles go on and on and on. And I have to get off and stay off this merrygo round, it's really not a fun ride is it? I am so weary, this man I married seems so pathetic to me when I see him, which I only did twice in the past two months. That's enough, to see him as a little boy without values or morals. You were likely right, I shouldn't have lowered the charges, it's only my dad dying, I didn't have the energy to fight my husband, it wasn't worth it. But even with the lowered charges, my journals, emails I have enough to press charges again if there's ever any future abuse to the baby or me as I'm stuck with this man for life as we have a child together. Honestly I wanted to make the best of a bad situation, yes I could have done restraining orders and the works. One counselor said that the baby would in his 20s care less about either of us if we fight as he's growing up. It's true, I was that way in my 20s, sick of the fighting in my family and quit going home for Holidays. I don't want that for my boy, I'll try to get along, without pushing the law to it's fullest like I could. But I am a mom, with a mother's intuition and if my child ever is strange or has a bruise, I will nail him hard.I don't see him as capable but I wonder if he drinks around the baby or gets angry. It's scary. Someday I'll look back on this and wonder why I stayed in this marriage four years, the baby came out of it and he's the greatest kid... that might be the only meaning.

Hi All,
I read the first page,dont have time to read it all but I too am seperated from my H.I moved out in July after hearing over and over how we were no good together,how he wanted to be alone,how "I" needed to move so guess what I gave him his wish.
He thought that now everything was great,he could live one place and me another and he could pop in every other week(or less)and I would be so excited to see him..NOT!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I filed for a D in Jan.H will not sign the papers says he wont give up(yet never wanted to try)and wont let me go.I feel lost some days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Did I do the right thing?? Will I regret my decision?? I just feel confussed right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

So any support I can get right now to see me thru will be so helpful.
Thanks for listening,I will try and read this whole thread as soon as I have a little more time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Gingersnap, it seems like this thread turned into something with a lot of women who've experienced domestic violence which you didn't say you have had in your marriage. There's a good Christian book on separating that I just read, mostly doesn't apply in my case or those with violence other then if there's a chance for tough love to work, it's by leaving that it does. Anyways in the book it says it's hard to trust your feelings while separated, many act on feelings just to regret. Most arguments are never agreed upon in a marriage it's how you communicate your differences. I don't know your background but I'm with Dr. Phil that until you've turned over ever rock, tried counseling, read up, it's not time for a divorce. But I really believe in marriage, and also in MB's. If your husband doesnt' want to let go is he willing to go to counseling, work through MB principles? Perhaps your leaving woke him up, it's true that that's the only way to get it through a man's thick skull, and maybe there is hope if he's seeing the light... I don't know.

I have been thru it all in my marriage,from physical abuse,alcohol abuse,my H getting arrested for various reasons to a child that got hooked on drugs and then the A.Ive probably experianced just about everything in my 27yr M.

My H was NOT willing to do anything,no councling,I bought all the books recommended here he refused to read them he did not want to have to put any effort into recovery,very much the same way he treated our M.

He does not want to let me go probably because I have always been there and that was what he expected out of me,for me his A was the final act of disrespect I could take,and him not wanting to go thru the steps of recovery well that just showed me how important I was.

So as far as turning over every rock,,,,,,kinda hard to do alone,just like revovery is.